Recommending Story-first games

5.00 star(s) 8 Votes

EndlessNights

Member
Jun 18, 2022
315
2,167
I highly recommend Say It Again if you're open to playing a VN that covers some rather dark topics including self-harm, domestic abuse, and rape. It all starts out innocently enough: Shizue needs a new roommate because her best friend Nessa has moved in with her boyfriend. Her new housemate ends up being Clementine, a lesbian art student who wants to live closer to school. Shizue at first identifies as straight, but she finds herself questioning her sexuality as she and Clem grow closer.

There is a curious dichotomy to Say It Again. The game alternates between wholesome scenes featuring Shizue and Clementine bantering with each other humorously or sharing the occasional sweet girlfriend moment and increasingly violent and out of control sexual encounters between the two. It is (unfortunately) unusual for an AVN in the way it actually uses sex scenes as a narrative device to tell vital parts of the story. They are truly integral to the plot here particularly towards the end of the game.

In broad terms, you could say Shizue is dominant and Clementine is submissive, but I wouldn't say their relationship is centered around BDSM per se. There are no rules, no roleplaying, no cultural standards, and no formalities here. Instead, Shizue tends to get horny and does whatever she wants whenever she wants while Clementine always seems to be game for just about anything. They never seem able to communicate what they want and what is acceptable to them -- Shizue has absolute free rein here and doesn't seek prior consent or give any warning even before engaging in rather painful sex acts.

You could say this is simply the way their relationship works and the way they both prefer it to be, but as the story moves along we discover Shizue and Clementine have both been profoundly affected by past trauma. One thing I found myself wrestling with quite a bit is whether Clem truly loves everything Shizue does to her or if she actually hates herself so much and is so terrified of losing her girlfriend that she thinks she deserves cruelty. It's not an easy issue to resolve and there's evidence to support either side of the argument. Similarly, the story does an excellent job of providing a nuanced and sympathetic portrayal of Shizue. In my mind, she's both a victim and a victimizer (not that uncommon a pairing unfortunately), but Say It Again refuses to write her off as simply an abusive partner whom Clem needs to escape from. Shizue does have a conscience, however slow it is to emerge, and she isn't entirely comfortable with all of her own actions. I probably spent as much if not more time contemplating the characters' actions, motivations, and innermost feelings away from the screen as I did actually playing the game which is testament to the high quality of the writing.

There are a couple of things that might dissuade some players right off the bat from giving the game a fair shot. First, it uses a rather unique art style. I at first thought it was a rare in the wild AVN use of Daz toon assets; it turns out it's actually all custom work done in Blender by the dev. The characters are definitely distinctive, but some may find their cartoonish look off-putting. I definitely needed a little time to get used to the spindly Olive Oyl-like legs and tiny hands. At the end of the day, though, I like that the game has its own unique aesthetic and doesn't look like your average AVN. Next, Say It Again is completely kinetic and has absolutely zero choices or opportunities for player interaction. Though I tend not to be a big fan of kinetic novels, the author's decision ultimately made sense to me because the game centers around a relationship that can seem unhealthy and dysfunctional at the least. Given the right set of available choices, I'd probably have broken up Shizue and Clementine early on. That would definitely have changed the story rather radically to say the least. (I'd also have had Wendy dump Jack Torrance's abusive, alcoholic ass and take Danny as far away from him as possible which no doubt would've made The Shining unfold a bit differently.)

It's debatable in my mind as to whether Say It Again fetishizes or justifies self-harm, domestic abuse, and/or partner rape. I personally tended to find the sex scenes more disturbing than erotic, but someone with different kinks than me might have a very different experience. I did think the game is perhaps a little too protective of Shizue at times, particularly in the ending. That might be an attempt at balance on the part of the author because it would be so easy to vilify her. In any case, I think there's a place for dangerous art that tackles dark themes and the less examined and uncomfortable portions of the human experience. Say It Again does that exceptionally well if you can handle the discomfort and challenge of the ride.
 
Last edited:

jufot

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2021
1,543
3,439
It's debatable in my mind as to whether Say It Again fetishizes or justifies self-harm, domestic abuse, and/or partner rape. I personally tended to find the sex scenes more disturbing than erotic, but someone with different kinks than me might have a very different experience. I did think the game is perhaps a little too protective of Shizue at times, particularly in the ending.
I'm a fan of Say It Again, but I agree with this. I brought up these concerns with the dev long before the last chapter, but it didn't turn out to be effective :/
 

bacienvu88

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2021
1,714
3,192
I highly recommend Say It Again
Definitely agree.

I don't think I've ever played another game, porn or otherwise, that laid bare a person to that extent.
I personally tended to find the sex scenes more disturbing than erotic
I mean, many of the scenes are most definitely disturbing. But that was nothing compared to how much I felt the pain they are in. Both physical and mental.
 

Dragon59

Conversation Conqueror
Apr 24, 2020
6,699
10,960
I suppose you are right about this scenario. However those games also have a problem as well. They are generic, boring, and retread. But, I also know a guy who can listen to the same song 20 times in a row. So, to each their own.

Also, I had no target audience whatsoever and I'm doing alright. I made my game because I wanted to tell a story with a message, and if people enjoyed it great. I also never take requests about the story as to not compromise my original vision. Kinda like an author of a book would do. Here is it for you to consume if you so choose, take it or leave it.
Like the overused trope of the MC (with the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old) moves in with two sisters (they may be his sisters, his cousins, or unrelated). The younger sister is very innocent and wants the MC to teach her. The older sister considers the MC to be an annoying pervert.

If I ever descend to that level, send someone to take me out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pankaq

Dragon59

Conversation Conqueror
Apr 24, 2020
6,699
10,960
I think everyone can see your point of view and respect your opinion. It's just that this is a thread about story-first games, and the people that participate here generally value the dev's creative license highly, whether it fits their own particular fetish or interests.

The sentiment that devs should appeal to the masses to bring in the bucks is counter to giving devs the environment to exercise their vision.

I'm not sure how long you've been around this site, but the "masses," or at least the masses that like to comment on the game threads, are some of the most childish and entitled bunch you can find on the internet. Catering to these folks is how you get yet another generic safe space harem. It's fine to make a safe space harem, and some of them even manage to be somewhat interesting, but doing it to satisfy the masses instead of doing it because the devs personally like that type of story is what we don't appreciate.

If a dev wants to include a sister or mother in the story, the masses will demand they be fuckable. If a dev wants to depict a grounded story with relationships that don't involve the MC, the masses will cry about NTR, even if the intent was nothing close to actual NTR (corruption, jealousy, betrayal, cheating). If the dev wants to depict an underdog story where the MC starts out really weak or inadequate, the masses will cry about the shitty MC. If the dev wants to depict a morally fucked up MC, the masses will complain about the asshole MC. The list goes on.

The "masses" are trying their goddamn hardest to steer the devs into making the game they want. I don't know if that is a healthy environment for developers in your view, but I personally think the masses can go fuck themselves.
I immediately thought of this exchange...
Morons.gif
I agree that "writing for the masses," "writing to maximize profit," is antithetical to this group.
I agree that most people play games for porn content. So looking at sex tags and trying to thrust (pun intended) as many fetishes as possible to cast a wide net may be worth it if you just want to make money. Even though making money is very unlikely either way for an indy dev.

Trying to add fetishes & content for everyone will eventually blow up in your face, either via snail speed updates causing the "masses" to turn on you, or simply burning out because you dislike your own game or it's too overwhelming to manage.

But this all goes against "story first" games. It's basically advocating for porn based games, which is pretty much the opposite of this threads intent.
Precisely. On the spectrum of "Porn Game" to Adult Visual Novel, this group is focused on story-based AVNs. That means they are not likely to appeal to the group looking for "porn games to fap to."

Personally, I come here to this group to get away from the "appeal the the masses, give up your story for well worn tropes in order to make more money," pitchsters.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bacienvu88

bacienvu88

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2021
1,714
3,192
Personally, I come here to this group to get away from the "appeal the the masses, give up your story for well worn tropes in order to make more money," pitchsters.
Appealing to the masses is a viable strategy. But it is not like it is a sure-fire way to success. The competition is very fierce in that market segment. Why should someone give money to your game when there are 10 other similar games which all are better?
That's the difficulty isn't it? But you can certainly make educated guesses. Pornhub regularly posts tag popularity,
PornHub is precisely the opposite of what you are arguing. Lots of short videos with exactly those fetishes you have searched for. There are no "10 LI:s that you can skip and choose from because you are not interested in it".

EDIT: Regarding pornhub , I guess everyone should do a hentai game featuring Japanese lesbian milfs.
you can take a loot at the most viewed threads on this website... The set of paying customers might not be the same, but they are directly correlated, more players ≃ more attention ≃ more payers.
Why limit yourself to pornhub & F95 crowd? If I were to make an erotic game with the goal of making as much money as possible I would probably target women. Think 50 shades of grey and steamy romance novels. Ideally I'd do it mobile first as well, but that is a dud since can't get on iPhone etc. due to Apple's rules.
 
Last edited:

Dragon59

Conversation Conqueror
Apr 24, 2020
6,699
10,960
Appealing to the masses is a viable strategy. But it is not like it is a sure-fire way to success. The competition is very fierce in that market segment. Why should someone give money to your game when there are 10 other similar games which all are better?
I'm often reminded of a song of my youth. Garden Party by Ricky Nelson, especially:
Ricky Nelson said:
But it's all right now
I learned my lesson well
You see, you can't please everyone
So you got to please yourself
I'm a believer of "write your passion." You may not get as many followers by writing to the lowest common denominator, but you'll probably be happier with the support you do get. I believe the authenticity will show through and many will appreciate it. Writing "by the numbers," is often quite obvious, IMHO.
PornHub is precisely the opposite of what you are arguing. Lots of short videos with exactly those fetishes you have searched for. There are no "10 LI:s that you can skip and choose from because you are not interested in it".

EDIT: Regarding pornhub , I guess everyone should do a hentai game featuring Japanese lesbian milfs.
Ha! Looks like it! For the US, those lesbians should need be a mix of Asian, Ebony, and Latina in a threesome.
Why limit yourself to pornhub & F95 crowd? If I were to make an erotic game with the goal of making as much money as possible I would probably target women. Think 50 shades of grey and steamy romance novels. Ideally I'd do it mobile first as well, but that is a dud since can't get on iPhone etc. due to Apple's rules.
Because of the stories that are coming to me, I will be doing a lot of female centric stories. I know that won't appeal to everyone, but I'd rather have a few core fans to share my inspiration with. I'm actually running my stories by women that I know to help do it better.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bacienvu88

camube

Well-Known Member
Jun 4, 2022
1,335
1,211
Can I ask list of notable story-first renpy games that first came out in 2022?

I think i wanna try everything that came out in the past year, considering that I'm running out of AVN games to play.

So far I've played Leaving DNA, Alpha Omega, Fog of War, and Zero End.
I'm thinking about playing Race of Life next.
Other than that, The Hellcat Lounge is also alright.

What do I miss that aren't on that list?
 

Tlaero

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
1,061
5,228
Are you looking for games that were completed in 2022 or ones that were started then?
Toro 7 started in March of 2022 but isn't done yet.
Chasing Beth just misses your cutoff. It was released in middle December 2021.

Tlaero
 

camube

Well-Known Member
Jun 4, 2022
1,335
1,211
Are you looking for games that were completed in 2022 or ones that were started then?
Toro 7 started in March of 2022 but isn't done yet.
Chasing Beth just misses your cutoff. It was released in middle December 2021.

Tlaero
Started in 2022.
I tried Toro7, I think I might check out Saving Chloe next instead of Chasing Beth
 

desmosome

Conversation Conqueror
Sep 5, 2018
6,311
14,490
A tentative recommendation for y'all.

Etlina's Principle has a surprisingly well written story. At first glance, it might look like a symbiote latex tentacle fetish galore, but it's setting up the world and characters quite convincingly. It's very light on actual sex scenes at this point, and it takes itself seriously enough to not become a porn-driven narrative. I played the first release a while back which portrayed the military operation rather well for a porn game. This second update focuses more on the world building and character interactions. These first 2 chapters will probably give you a good idea on what type of writing you could expect.
 

jufot

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2021
1,543
3,439
Anyone play Lycoris Radiata? I've recommended it before and now that chapter 5 is out, I wanted to see if anyone would like to share their thoughts.

I feel like every passing chapter amplifies the positives and the negatives for me. The story is really good and is getting ever more interesting, and the idea of two people sharing a body and having you, the player, control whether they are honest with each other opens up so many narrative possibilities. It's exciting to see where it might eventually end up.

On the other hand, every scene, line, and word is dripping with anime tropes. Coupled with my low tolerance for them, I really struggle with it. This isn't the work of someone who merely enjoys anime. Oh, no! This is a love letter to anime that, I feel, can only be borne out of an obsession with it. It really detracts from my enjoyment. Maybe I should just wait for the story to be finished and read a novelization of it or something :)
 

camube

Well-Known Member
Jun 4, 2022
1,335
1,211
Maybe I should just wait for the story to be finished and read a novelization of it or something :)
I was about to subscribe to their patreon some time ago, and then I read their post that they are pausing billing (newcomers couldn't join to get early release) and they stated their reason to do that is that they are slowing down development due to IRL circumstances.

So because of that I skipped the game. If the game is not actively in development, I'm not sending them $ on patreon. I guess Mad World being an exception to that rule. I don't really know whether or not Mad World is in active development or not but their patreon has so few subscribers and the game is good enough for me to keep patroning for now, at least up until a certain period.

I do wanted to play Lycoris Radiata, but not anymore. If Lycoris Radiata keeps being developed until later, I might revisit and check it out maybe on Ch 6 release, if Ch 7 is confirmed to be actively developed by then.
 

jufot

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2021
1,543
3,439
If the game is not actively in development, I'm not sending them $ on patreon.
The development pace is slow but, for what it's worth, the updates are fairly long and the production values are very high.

Both LC and MW are in the same camp. They are actively being developed, but at a leisurely pace :)
 

desmosome

Conversation Conqueror
Sep 5, 2018
6,311
14,490
Anyone play Lycoris Radiata? I've recommended it before and now that chapter 5 is out, I wanted to see if anyone would like to share their thoughts.

I feel like every passing chapter amplifies the positives and the negatives for me. The story is really good and is getting ever more interesting, and the idea of two people sharing a body and having you, the player, control whether they are honest with each other opens up so many narrative possibilities. It's exciting to see where it might eventually end up.

On the other hand, every scene, line, and word is dripping with anime tropes. Coupled with my low tolerance for them, I really struggle with it. This isn't the work of someone who merely enjoys anime. Oh, no! This is a love letter to anime that, I feel, can only be borne out of an obsession with it. It really detracts from my enjoyment. Maybe I should just wait for the story to be finished and read a novelization of it or something :)
I would probably have the same response as you lol. The banner and preview pics scream edgy, "I'm so cool" anime protagonist. It's not exactly something I can't ever enjoy, but as I get older, I do seem to be losing interest in some of the more juvenile stories.

I definitely did enjoy the early superhero movies and the first couple Fast and Furious, but I've lost interest in those types of movies a long time ago. Is it because the sequel cash grabs are shitty? Or am I just getting older? I'm not sure. Maybe both.
 

jufot

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2021
1,543
3,439
I definitely did enjoy the early superhero movies and the first couple Fast and Furious, but I've lost interest in those types of movies a long time ago. Is it because the sequel cash grabs are shitty? Or am I just getting older? I'm not sure. Maybe both.
That's a good point, actually. I stopped watching Fast and Furious around the sixth movie, I think, and I haven't seen any Marvel stuff since the first Avengers one. Probably just getting old :)
 

Éama

Member
Apr 17, 2022
123
806
Anyone play Lycoris Radiata? I've recommended it before and now that chapter 5 is out, I wanted to see if anyone would like to share their thoughts.

I feel like every passing chapter amplifies the positives and the negatives for me. The story is really good and is getting ever more interesting, and the idea of two people sharing a body and having you, the player, control whether they are honest with each other opens up so many narrative possibilities. It's exciting to see where it might eventually end up.

On the other hand, every scene, line, and word is dripping with anime tropes. Coupled with my low tolerance for them, I really struggle with it. This isn't the work of someone who merely enjoys anime. Oh, no! This is a love letter to anime that, I feel, can only be borne out of an obsession with it. It really detracts from my enjoyment. Maybe I should just wait for the story to be finished and read a novelization of it or something :)
There are many different anime types. Cyberpunk: Edgerunner or Ghost in the Shell have nothing in common with Naruto or Bleach. I find that Lycoris leans to the more tropey latter kind and that is why I'm not entirely sold on it. I'm still early in my playthrough though.
 

Vasin

Member
Nov 20, 2018
268
337
There are many different anime types.
To be more precise, anime is not a genre, it's a medium. Or, even more specifically, a stylistic variation of a medium.

Speaking of anime styled games, I tried Out of Touch, despite initial apprehension, and, well after finding out that MC's absentee father is
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.
I just couldn't. It was like taking Anime intravenously
 
5.00 star(s) 8 Votes