Recommending Story-first games

[Dragon59]

I would probably have the same response as you lol. The banner and preview pics scream edgy, "I'm so cool" anime protagonist. It's not exactly something I can't ever enjoy, but as I get older, I do seem to be losing interest in some of the more juvenile stories.

You reminded me of the banner text of Dirty Pool

In this BEST GAME EVER, you will play a person who comes back to his relatives. You can decide who you are, and do what you want to do... Make your relationship like you want with the person who you want to be with. Force you own road from friend to a dictator. DO IT!

So humble.

 

[Dragon59]

This might be confirmation bias since it's what I look for now, but it feels like there are a lot more story-driven games out there with non-creepy protagonists than there were a few years ago.

 

[Tlaero]

Maybe devs are reading this thread and coming around to our way of thinking.

Tlaero

 

[bacienvu88]

This might be confirmation bias since it's what I look for now, but it feels like there are a lot more story-driven games out there with non-creepy protagonists than there were a few years ago.

There are a lot more AVNs made (or at least started ...) in general than a few years ago. Unsure if the ratio of creepy vs. non-creepy has changed.

 

[Dragon59]

Maybe devs are reading this thread and coming around to our way of thinking.

Tlaero

I certainly hope so!

There are a lot more AVNs made (or at least started ...) in general than a few years ago. Unsure if the ratio of creepy vs. non-creepy has changed.

Like I said, it may be confirmation bias because I'm getting a lot of my new game suggestions from here.

That said, I have a new inspiration I'd like to share.

After watching this short from #chrisbenett:

You must be registered to see the links

My housemate gave me a wonderfully "evil" idea.

Without sharing too much of the outline (it's on my PDS page), the story would be KARMA.

Act I: Player can choose from a list of advantages (above the mean) and disadvantages (below their character). They are then given relatively free reign to exercise those choices how they feel motivated.
At the end of Act I, the mc suffers a sudden death.

The player is give an re-roll character screen. They might notice that the higher the advantage they took in one area (wealth, power, physical), the more options are unavailable for Act II.

Act II: The MC must now pay off the karma incurred by the MC in the previous life. For instance, if they cheated on 5 LIs in Act I, they'll be cheated on by 5 LIs in Act II (NTR is technically avoidable }

ACT III: If they have made the right choices in Act II and paid off their karma, Act III should be very smooth. Perhaps it will be a third life, perhaps it will be the part of the second life.

AITA?

 

[bacienvu88]

I certainly hope so!

Like I said, it may be confirmation bias because I'm getting a lot of my new game suggestions from here.

That said, I have a new inspiration I'd like to share.

After watching this short from #chrisbenett:

You must be registered to see the links

My housemate gave me a wonderfully "evil" idea.

Without sharing too much of the outline (it's on my PDS page), the story would be KARMA.

Act I: Player can choose from a list of advantages (above the mean) and disadvantages (below their character). They are then given relatively free reign to exercise those choices how they feel motivated.
At the end of Act I, the mc suffers a sudden death.

The player is give an re-roll character screen. They might notice that the higher the advantage they took in one area (wealth, power, physical), the more options are unavailable for Act II.

Act II: The MC must now pay off the karma incurred by the MC in the previous life. For instance, if they cheated on 5 LIs in Act I, they'll be cheated on by 5 LIs in Act II (NTR is technically avoidable }

ACT III: If they have made the right choices in Act II and paid off their karma, Act III should be very smooth. Perhaps it will be a third life, perhaps it will be the part of the second life.

AITA?

That sounds really interesting on paper. But as usual, the devil is going to be in the details on how the karma actually works. If you encounter an actual dilemma in act 1, how is that going to play into the karma? Say you have the choice from Acting Lessons (choose one of two LIs to save from death), how is that going to reflect on your karma? The second issue is that it must be made very clear why the things in act 2 happens, otherwise you are going to make your players very frustrated.

EDIT: That idea would mesh well with my matchmaking game idea. I.e. the MC/Player is supposed to make sure there are as many happy couples (or throuples if that works better) as possible. Included MC of course. Then the second act could play off how well you did in act 1.

 

[camube]

This might be confirmation bias since it's what I look for now, but it feels like there are a lot more story-driven games out there with non-creepy protagonists than there were a few years ago.

There may be more games being made now so there are more games that have higher quality. Also these new games are probably inspired by older games that are already higher quality, so the bar are being raised.

Now we need more people to pay for patreons, even it's just $X a month on release month. Because mid-way abandoned games suck

 

[Dragon59]

That sounds really interesting on paper. But as usual, the devil is going to be in the details on how the karma actually works. If you encounter an actual dilemma in act 1, how is that going to play into the karma? Say you have the choice from Acting Lessons (choose one of two LIs to save from death), how is that going to reflect on your karma? The second issue is that it must be made very clear why the things in act 2 happens, otherwise you are going to make your players very frustrated.

EDIT: That idea would mesh well with my matchmaking game idea. I.e. the MC/Player is supposed to make sure there are as many happy couples (or throuples if that works better) as possible. Included MC of course. Then the second act could play off how well you did in act 1.

Yes, my test will be implementation.

Interesting. The MC plays the role of the matchmaker? May or may not find a match for themselves? The idea matchmaking with two acts reminds me of "Into the Woods." Act one was "happily every after." Act two was what happens after "ever after."
For instance, the two Princes Charming are hooked on the pursuit. Once they have married Cinderella and Rapunzel, they both get bored.

 

[Wildman Dev]

Guys...

...

 

[desmosome]

I seconded ename's thought. STWA Unbroken is an enjoyable game to read, but that's all.

Characters behave inconsistently to their previous characterizations, and there's not that much "change" coming from other people whether you control MC to act one way or a different way.

One thing for sure though, STWA is a good project manager because on top of already finishing one game and creating this one and the update schedule being consistent, STWA also knows how to cut and trim down the first game to reach an ending.

So players ended up with a complete product, even if it's "just alright". And "just alright" is a high bar in AVN genre because many renpy games are either illogical or dropped.

There's a place for game creators like STWA in the space because they can consistently create while knowing when and where to cut and when to "cater".

This update, and the character ename is referring to, it's mostly "catering" to AVN players, not as much to the story-first players. But STWA or any devs do need money to continue development since creating game takes real time.

So if nothing else, STWA is a competent releaser.

Just quoting this out of the chain of Unbroken discussion from a while back.

I was in the mood for a character drama sort of thing, so I gave this a go. I've read the previous discussion on this site, and you guys make good points. But I honestly loved the writing, and if you know me, I'm not that easy to please when it comes to stories of this nature that tries to touch your heart or get you to really connect with the characters. They usually lack the writing chops to get it done.

As usual, I played the manwhore (a charming one, in this case) style, both because it's generally the type of MC I prefer, and also because I always have this curiosity about how the dev will navigate the potential conflicts and relationship dynamics that could arise. In a way, I think that was the "intended" way to play this game, thus I probably got a more sensible story out of it with less incongruence than some of you guys here.

It seems to me that this game was written and conceptualized in a certain way. When you strip it down, it's basically one of those "totally not harem" games where the MC can romance and pursue all the girls until a point in the story (usually near the end) where he picks one of them and lives happily ever after. That "lead everyone on route" if we could call it that, might be the default state of the story. Any deviations from it are the alternate cases and exceptions that had to be fitted (sometimes awkwardly) into the common narrative.

If you noticed how the game is coded, it rarely sets flags and is mostly working off of a balancing scale between love and friendship points. Some major decisions are immortalized by a flag, but mostly you are just accruing points to determine the love > friendship conditions to see if you are on someone's "route." In theory, that opens up some possibilities of different entrance or exit points for a romantic/sexual progression, but I have not tried any of those various scenarios to determine if they run smoothly.

The game really really pushes you in the direction of love points naturally. You wouldn't really know unless looking at the code (or using URM), but a lot of sensible, affectionate (not romantic), and friendly choices are tied to love points, while the friendship points are often choices where the MC is deliberately building a brick wall made out of friendzone blocks all around himself. And since the game will generally gauge this as both the MC and the girl having romantic feelings (or at least brewing feelings), it might be a bit jarring if the player wasn't quite on board with that mind set when they suddenly have to turn down a girl and feel like an asshole or something.

On the flipside, if you do manage to friendzone a bunch of girls, I guess there might be certain points where you could still initiate sex. I'm not sure if there are more examples of this other than the Kana one in the last update, but that particular scene could seem out of place, I suppose. That said, she is actually not opposed to casual sex even though it probably just doesn't come up as a topic on a pure friendship path.

With all that out of the way, I really enjoyed the writing and some of the characters were incredibly interesting. Elspeth takes the top spot for sure in uniqueness. The "harem, but not harem" narrative can be incredibly trite and uninteresting in the wrong hands, but because this game seems to be primarily written to try and justify this relationship dynamic for as long as possible, and because the dev has the writing chops to pull it off, I was not put off by any of the romance progression. And by some miracle, the MC is believable enough as this object of affection for all these girls. He is good looking, takes care of his people, has a bit of a bad boy mask, while also having this great vulnerability they wanna fix. I could buy it.

What really sells the story, imo, is the story structure. The layers of these characters, including the MC, is revealed gradually with finer detail as the story progresses. It could seem artificial if it was handled poorly, but I felt like it really was the special sauce that kept me engaged. And more so than any romantic possibilities, what really drew me in was getting to know these characters' life stories and where it will lead.

One final note is that many of the main girls have their own unique variable to (probably) determine their "success" in life. Confidence for Amrit, Acceptance/grief for Vi. Injury score for Kana. Etc. I could not get myself to knowingly sabotage their well being, and I'm someone who usually revels in the chaos of bad endings lol. That means the characters got me good in the feels, which doesn't happen very often.

 

[camube]

Just quoting this out of the chain of Unbroken discussion from a while back.

I was in the mood for a character drama sort of thing, so I gave this a go. I've read the previous discussion on this site, and you guys make good points. But I honestly loved the writing, and if you know me, I'm not that easy to please when it comes to stories of this nature that tries to touch your heart or get you to really connect with the characters. They usually lack the writing chops to get it done.

As usual, I played the manwhore (a charming one, in this case) style, both because it's generally the type of MC I prefer, and also because I always have this curiosity about how the dev will navigate the potential conflicts and relationship dynamics that could arise. In a way, I think that was the "intended" way to play this game, thus I probably got a more sensible story out of it with less incongruence than some of you guys here.

It seems to me that this game was written and conceptualized in a certain way. When you strip it down, it's basically one of those "totally not harem" games where the MC can romance and pursue all the girls until a point in the story (usually near the end) where he picks one of them and lives happily ever after. That "lead everyone on route" if we could call it that, might be the default state of the story. Any deviations from it are the alternate cases and exceptions that had to be fitted (sometimes awkwardly) into the common narrative.

If you noticed how the game is coded, it rarely sets flags and is mostly working off of a balancing scale between love and friendship points. Some major decisions are immortalized by a flag, but mostly you are just accruing points to determine the love > friendship conditions to see if you are on someone's "route." In theory, that opens up some possibilities of different entrance or exit points for a romantic/sexual progression, but I have not tried any of those various scenarios to determine if they run smoothly.

The game really really pushes you in the direction of love points naturally. You wouldn't really know unless looking at the code (or using URM), but a lot of sensible, affectionate (not romantic), and friendly choices are tied to love points, while the friendship points are often choices where the MC is deliberately building a brick wall made out of friendzone blocks all around himself. And since the game will generally gauge this as both the MC and the girl having romantic feelings (or at least brewing feelings), it might be a bit jarring if the player wasn't quite on board with that mind set when they suddenly have to turn down a girl and feel like an asshole or something.

On the flipside, if you do manage to friendzone a bunch of girls, I guess there might be certain points where you could still initiate sex. I'm not sure if there are more examples of this other than the Kana one in the last update, but that particular scene could seem out of place, I suppose. That said, she is actually not opposed to casual sex even though it probably just doesn't come up as a topic on a pure friendship path.

With all that out of the way, I really enjoyed the writing and some of the characters were incredibly interesting. Elspeth takes the top spot for sure in uniqueness. The "harem, but not harem" narrative can be incredibly trite and uninteresting in the wrong hands, but because this game seems to be primarily written to try and justify this relationship dynamic for as long as possible, and because the dev has the writing chops to pull it off, I was not put off by any of the romance progression. And by some miracle, the MC is believable enough as this object of affection for all these girls. He is good looking, takes care of his people, has a bit of a bad boy mask, while also having this great vulnerability they wanna fix. I could buy it.

What really sells the story, imo, is the story structure. The layers of these characters, including the MC, is revealed gradually with finer detail as the story progresses. It could seem artificial if it was handled poorly, but I felt like it really was the special sauce that kept me engaged. And more so than any romantic possibilities, what really drew me in was getting to know these characters' life stories and where it will lead.

One final note is that many of the main girls have their own unique variable to (probably) determine their "success" in life. Confidence for Amrit, Acceptance/grief for Vi. Injury score for Kana. Etc. I could not get myself to knowingly sabotage their well being, and I'm someone who usually revels in the chaos of bad endings lol. That means the characters got me good in the feels, which doesn't happen very often.

Oh i didn't use walkthrough so i didn't know injury score was a state that is being tracked.
Yeah i don't make the MC go for Viridiana and Amrit because of who they are in relation to MC.

So that only leave Kana and Elspeth. Problem with Elspeth is that Alistair seems to like her (or maybe I misread? I only have 1 unbroken run). Anyway on that blind playthrough I thought Alistair likes her so that only leaves Kana. That's pretty much that.

I didn't really realized that the lawyer is a love interest until I checked f95 banner.

 

[desmosome]

Oh i didn't use walkthrough so i didn't know injury score was a state that is being tracked.
Yeah i don't make the MC go for Viridiana and Amrit because of who they are in relation to MC.

So that only leave Kana and Elspeth. Problem with Elspeth is that Alistair seems to like her (or maybe I misread? I only have 1 unbroken run). Anyway on that blind playthrough I thought Alistair likes her so that only leaves Kana. That's pretty much that.

I didn't really realized that the lawyer is a love interest until I checked f95 banner.

As far as I can see, they are just friends. Alistair even gives you the go ahead very early in the game, although you could try to read between the lines and come up with some justification that he is not being forthcoming. But that's a very big player assumption, imo, because there really isn't anything to indicate that he has a thing for her.

As for Elspeth, she makes it very clear that they are just friends during one of the question games sessions when you ask about her and Alister. They were friends as kids due to their fathers, then she totally outpaced him in schooling. Then they went to their respective military runs. Only recently are they getting reacquainted.

There is a bro code you could apply here, but that notion is shot right down by Elspeth in one of the Q&A sessions.

She asks why the MC never made a move on her and one of the answers you can choose is this.

Spoiler

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What's interesting about Elspeth is that she only ask about MC's romantic and sexual life if she has more secrecy points than trust points. If she trusts the MC, she wants to get to know him on a deeper level. She asks questions directly related to his trauma, because she herself has a similar trauma from her Military, of which we don't have the full picture yet.

edit:
Oh, and that rival stat for Alistair is not really about girls. From what I can tell, it's probably about their future MMA endeavors.

edit2:
I do hope Alistair can find someone though lol. Whether it be Elspeth if you don't go for her, one of the other unclaimed LI, or anyone else. I always find it a bit shitty when the friend is written as celibate or something because well... you know.

 

[Tlaero]

Without sharing too much of the outline (it's on my PDS page), the story would be KARMA.

It's definitely an interesting idea, Dragon. My worry with doing something like this is that you'll need to do a whole lot of branches to make it meaningful. So you'll be spending a lot of time making content you might not actually enjoy making.

I wonder if you could simplify it to make it manageable. For instance, you could make it one LI, and make the treatment of him/her be more psychological than cheating. Are you supportive or dismissive? Protecting or abusive? etc.

Also, if you do bad things, then bad things will happen to you when Karma happens. But if you do good things, then good things will happen to you in Karma. The good path seems pretty similar to typical games where you do nice things and you get together with the LI. I don't know that people who play the "good" MC will "get it."

Tlaero

 

[camube]

anyone here that have played both Strangers on Paper and Bound to Please? Which one has the better story for a first chapter?

 

[Dragon59]

anyone here that have played both Strangers on Paper and Bound to Please? Which one has the better story for a first chapter?

I've installed Strangers on Paper, but haven't started it yet, so I can't say. I will take a look at Bound to Please.

 

[Dragon59]

It's definitely an interesting idea, Dragon. My worry with doing something like this is that you'll need to do a whole lot of branches to make it meaningful. So you'll be spending a lot of time making content you might not actually enjoy making.

I wonder if you could simplify it to make it manageable. For instance, you could make it one LI, and make the treatment of him/her be more psychological than cheating. Are you supportive or dismissive? Protecting or abusive? etc.

Also, if you do bad things, then bad things will happen to you when Karma happens. But if you do good things, then good things will happen to you in Karma. The good path seems pretty similar to typical games where you do nice things and you get together with the LI. I don't know that people who play the "good" MC will "get it."

Tlaero

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, it could become a headache if I am not careful. I don't plan on tackling this one until I've gotten a few short stories under my belt. It's not a story to stumble into like some developers do.

 

[skrusher]

anyone here that have played both Strangers on Paper and Bound to Please? Which one has the better story for a first chapter?

I've played and recommend Bound to Please. I downloaded Strangers on Paper but haven't played it yet, so I can't compare the two.

 

[camube]

My favourites since 22
The Neverwhere Tales (Aug 22)
Strangers On Paper (May 23)

So i just read the review of Neverwhere Tales and there is a mention there that there are 3 variable of how a specific character role is towards the MC. 1) in love with the MC, 2) just a close friend, 3) a job

I wanna know what's your take on that? Does having 3 different variant hinders the VN from having timely development?
And does having 3 different variant hinders the VN from telling a specific story?

sorry if the question is unclear!

 

[bacienvu88]

Interesting. The MC plays the role of the matchmaker? May or may not find a match for themselves?

Exactly. My idea comes from the fact that MC's buddy / sidekick very seldom gets any girls, while all the girls fawn over MC. So my idea was for doing the opposite with a selfless (reminder: selfless does not mean weak!) MC who only care about the happiness of their friends and their own happiness is derived from seeing their friends happy.

The idea matchmaking with two acts reminds me of "Into the Woods." Act one was "happily every after." Act two was what happens after "ever after."
For instance, the two Princes Charming are hooked on the pursuit. Once they have married Cinderella and Rapunzel, they both get bored.

Interesting, but Into the woods was apparently abandoned pretty early?

 

[yossa999]

So i just read the review of Neverwhere Tales and there is a mention there that there are 3 variable of how a specific character role is towards the MC. 1) in love with the MC, 2) just a close friend, 3) a job

I wanna know what's your take on that? Does having 3 different variant hinders the VN from having timely development?
And does having 3 different variant hinders the VN from telling a specific story?

sorry if the question is unclear!

Hey, this seems like a pretty typical AVN relationship setup with the girls. If we're only talking about animations and renders, being "in love" usually gives you additional content with a certain girl in addition to what you'll see if you're "close friends". I don't think the "love" and "friend" routes in this game for a particular girl would require a completely different set of renders. Perhaps with the exception of Kaija, she seems to be a special case, and the relationship with her will probably greatly affect the main story. The dialogs may change slightly depending on the branch, but I don't think this will significantly increase the development time. So far, the dev shows a steady pace of development, so I'm optimistic about this game