Recommending Story-first games

[moskyx]

Thoughts on the latest episode of Leaving DNA?

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I do like the twists of the main case(s). It's also a very polished product and I find the technicities of the US legal system entertaining enough. The rest... I don't like it that much, honestly. It has basically the same issues I mentioned the first time I played it: it's tedious. Like, really tedious. Convos expand for eternities and while this can help to add more depth and nuances to the characters and their relationships, I just can't stand most of them. Even supposedly funny moments feel too scripted and unnatural. Also, for all the precision and care that seems to be put into the legal aspects of the story, the basketball thing is clearly lacking realism (and I fear the 'special agent' plot would go the same way, with that forced phone talk about heroism and doing the right thing and all of that: I'd bet real agents never have that kind of convos, and especially not on the phone). Plus the constant moral lecturing from the MC you mention, it's becoming annoying.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

So yeah, I get why you may like the game, but things are not improving in my eyes.

 

[jufot]

Convos expand for eternities and while this can help to add more depth and nuances to the characters and their relationships, I just can't stand most of them. Even supposedly funny moments feel too scripted and unnatural.

That reminded me of Rockford and Jamie's Marvel superheroes discussion. It felt like 10 minutes, and that was about 11 minutes too long

with that forced phone talk about heroism and doing the right thing and all of that: I'd bet real agents never have that kind of convos, and especially not on the phone

Right. I file that under "Rockford is too perfect," which is becoming a very thick folder.

It was never a way to explore the incest theme itself and its moral grey areas (that's what the bar scene was for), but to create a certain situation that could have some minor impact in the game.

That's fair, but then the case doesn't really serve a purpose for character development. Jamie is supposedly this legal prodigy destined for a Supreme Court seat, and we get to see her chops with this... trivially easy case where the defendant basically hangs himself without any effort needed by the prosecution? If the presence of the case isn't about Jamie, then that's worse as it just leaves Rockford's sermon which, again, is tedious.

My issue is that his moral lecture is, again, too long, too wordy for the boy to understand, too unnatural. And don't forget, this is the same MC who didn't want to go to the police after being stabbed and who let the rape attempt go totally unreported.

Rockford is a "do as I say, not as I do" man, so at least he's being consistent

Her convo with Luis in which she basically confesses she's all for the MC really rubbed me the wrong way, I'd hoped for a path of more resistance: the MC should really work his way to get to her again, but I felt she's too much willing to accept even his minor progress. All the tension between them from the first chapter is gone just after a couple of interactions

I agree with everything you say about Jamie, Aghavni and Emmeline, but this in particular is important. She had some real, reasonable complaints about Rockford, who is suddenly back in her good graces without any real effort from his part. It feels lazy.

And, while Malena is physically uber-attractive (the best of the pack, by large), her tough demeanor is a no-go for me. You said it's the right amount of crazy; with all due respect, she's a bit too much for me. I would have run away from that bar after the first drink and never looked back.

Haha, fair enough. It's a matter of different tastes, after all

 

[Impious Monk]

Thoughts on the latest episode of Leaving DNA?

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[jufot]

This actually is what I was going for because I imagine it's what Rockford is probably experiencing. The player just sees adorable, hot, adult Jamie. Rockford still has memories of her as a child. So I give the player one of those memories, too.

In retrospect, that makes sense. It was just too real, enough to put me off Jamie entirely. But that wouldn't bother most players so I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Stick with me over your other concerns--I may be going in a different direction that you're anticipating. But it's going to take all eight episodes to get there.

I'll definitely stick with the game. If for nothing else, I want to see how the central mystery will be resolved, and I'm open to being pleasantly surprised about my concerns.

EDIT: I should emphasize that most of my concerns aren't plot related, so I'm not sure how they can be addressed in future chapters. It's mostly presentation and characterization. Half the LIs have porn tits. Rockford is a moralizing, lecturing Gary Stu. I suppose they could improve in the future (Aghavni could get that breast reduction op she desperately needs, and Rockford could be taken down a few notches by being on the receiving end of a lecture for once) but somehow I doubt that's where you're going

 

[moskyx]

Yup, same here. The plot is actually very interesting and I'm currently starting to translate this chapter anyway, but I'd probably go for a celibate route with some casual flings.

 

[EndlessNights]

Thoughts on the latest episode of Leaving DNA?

I thought it was another really strong and very well-written update. There was continued excellent character development as well as significant progress in both the main and side plots. The final two love interests have now been fully introduced. The flashbacks of Rockford's early life and the incest trial both packed a serious emotional wallop.

One thing I want to especially praise Impious Monk for is the way he's building a vibrant world where even minor characters are given significant recurring roles. We learned a lot about Luis and Robert in this update, for instance, and it was great to see Sara again at the trial, albeit under difficult circumstances.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[jufot]

Impious Monk did something quite difficult and managed to capture exactly the right tone and just the right level of gravity, realism, and feeling. He treated the moment with the sensitivity it needed which is easier said than done.

Agreed!

What I think the story was aiming for was to show what incest in the real world often is like. Rather than being novel or fraught with moral quandaries or "interesting," it is more often simply an act of brutality, violence, selfishness, and hatred. I felt like it made for a very appropriate contrast with how incest is usually depicted in AVNs. I know you're not generally a fan of utopian fantasy incest so I'm surprised to see you object to a more realistic portrayal here.

Oh, it wasn't the portrayal I objected to. In fact, I found it quite visceral and realistic. I just thought an incest trial about a relationship more like the gray areas Ryan was describing in chapter 1 would have been more interesting. As it stands, this was a simple "bad guy gets his comeuppance" case which, while well done, didn't provide the intellectual stimulation I was hoping for.

I try not to let that preference make me completely dismiss characters who are otherwise interesting.

So do I, but the key word is try Aghavni is so distractingly disproportionate in her appearance, it pulls me out of the story whenever she's on scene. It doesn't help that this chapter has multiple occurrences of Rockford ogling her "assets"...

I had low expectations going in, but Emmeline has actually surprised me a bit in a positive way.

Emmeline actually reminded me of what you said about Jamie back in our chapter 1 discussion:

Jamie is a character who is very easy to adore. She's part big time, Harvard educated lawyer and part blushing teenage girl stuck in a time warp.

I think Emmeline is very much the blushing teenage girl, just like Jaime. Her internal musings during Rockford and Aghavni's visit felt very immature/juvenile. Not in a bad way, just in a "this girl is too young to date a DA in his 30s" kind of way

Malena is definitely a colorful character with a strong personality. I found her interesting, but I still find the idea of pairing her with Rockford a bit odd.

Perhaps surprisingly, I agree! I was so into Malena personally, I didn't stop to think if she'd be a good match for Rockford. You're right, they are an odd pairing. But perhaps they'll find common ground once she starts training him as she promised?

Of course, they have plenty of time left to connect, and I opted to walk Emmeline out rather than stay with Malena and Anna so I probably missed some important content. I did think it was a good sign that he didn't seem to feel insulted by her verbal jabs and or put off by her complete lack of decorum as I very well might have in the same circumstances. Also, for her part Malena seems to absolutely adore Emmeline even though their personalities are nothing alike so I might not have a good read on what she values in other people.

Malena does adore Emmeline, and is very protective of her. If you stay with Malena and Anna at the bar, that scene goes very differently depending on if Emmeline is interested in you. If she is, Malena keeps her distance, explicitly mentioning Emmeline. If not, though, she and Rockford have a quickie in the bathroom which leaves our Boy Scout a bit frazzled

Thanks for sharing your insights, by the way. You tend to have a much better read on the emotional side of things and point out the bits I tend to miss.

 

[idontdreamwhenisleep69]

I think the best kissing scenes I've seen are from "Summer's Gone" with Bella. The chemistry between Bella and MC makes you itch with anticipation. On the other hand, the first season in that game will be sexless

Nami kiss scene was perfect as well

 

[Impious Monk]

I hesitate to make this comment, because I don't think this thread should be a forum for devs to defend their games. But this post isn't meant as a defense: I would like to be heard here, not as the writer, but just as another dude sharing his own views about the characters.

Spoiler: MC and Emmeline

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[idontdreamwhenisleep69]

I hesitate to make this comment, because I don't think this thread should be a forum for devs to defend their games. But this post isn't meant as a defense: I would like to be heard here, not as the writer, but just as another dude sharing his own views about the characters.

Spoiler: MC and Emmeline

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Just make your game, dawg. It's good. The player has the choice to avoid relationships with any character they deem offensive. Part of the fun of AVNs is getting to explore parts of relationships that we find morally ambiguous/taboo.

 

[Bombmaster]

Good update from Leaving DNA, Cried reading:MC chidhood/Looking at the photographs into the wall and none having you, just oranges Really? . and mc dog fuck man stop kicking my feels, Gj with a chance to bond with trauma with jamie at the Museum.

Missed all the sex scenes cause Jamie and Emmeline had none.

as some people pointed out rebonding into Aghavni after she left us the first time feels wrong from my POV.

And Malena is hot as diamonds yet not going into bar sex with her, Is not what Rock would do.

Pursuing a shallow path would make Gary less stu...

as Jufot said:

That reminded me of Rockford and Jamie's Marvel superheroes discussion. It felt like 10 minutes, and that was about 11 minutes too long x2 (YES!!! I DID PUSH CTRL a bit)

 

[jufot]

I hesitate to make this comment, because I don't think this thread should be a forum for devs to defend their games.

Devs are always welcome here, and I'd argue there is a difference between defending a game and being defensive about it. You're obviously doing the former and I welcome it

Emmeline is not a witness on the case.

Perhaps not in a strict definition of the word, but Robert is definitely a person of interest / witness and dating his daughter or just hanging out with her socially would definitely be out of bounds for a DA. If his boss found out about it, I'd expect Rockford to be pulled off the case and reprimanded.

Perhaps a part of him does recognize a danger to the Amy Mall investigation by getting close to Emmeline--but does it really paint him in such an immoral light if he shuts that warning signal in the back of his brain?

If it was anyone else, sure. But Rockford is a Boy Scout to an annoying degree. If it was another DA doing this, you just know Rockford would be giving them a lecture about it

That problem is: At the time the investigation begins, before they knew he was dead, wasn't MC's father a suspect? Wasn't everyone in that unit a suspect? Why the fuck would MC ever be allowed to work on this case? Jamie was wrong, Luis was right. In my humble opinion. But, of course, if Luis had done the right thing there, we'd have no story. So hopefully we can accept a little suspension of disbelief that Luis, a human acting in good faith, made an error of judgment.

Good point. This is definitely Luis' mistake, but it doesn't sting as much as the Emmeline situation because Luis is never shown to be a Boy Scout. He doesn't moralize. He's just trying to help his surrogate son, and that clouds his judgment. It feels natural, human, and hence it goes unnoticed

 

[Vasin]

So I played 2nd episode of Leaving DNA and I mostly agree with the sentiment expressed in this thread. I really like the dream sequence idea (althouth imo a waste of time, far be it for me to presume to tell anyone what to do, and patrons do need their carrots, and it's the best way to add that to the game), the first one was hilarious, animation work in sex scenes is exceptional, and the plot moves a good amount and is quite gripping.

I still do not care much about the MC, he does seem to me to be like a "generic wish fulfillment MC" tuned down to 7 or 8, not like MC from something like WVM. I mean, I would take Rockford over that whatshisname from Lydia Collier that, despite being more realistic in minute details manages to be level 90 creep in some branches of the story.

I liked the flashbacks scenes both the childhood and adolescence ones, seeing Jamie so little did have an impact on the way I see her, mostly in a confirmational way. I generally don't mind childhood friend turned LI trope, but in this case there's time to let go, and she does seem a little obsessed with MC.

Aghavni's character I feel was torpedoed by the conversation with lieutenant, that I don't feel we needed to see even if it did happen, it could just occur offscreen. I guess she's a better fit than Jamie if nothing else.

Emmeline I was reasonably impressed by, she does seem a bit immature but at least she's not immediately connected to the MC personally so she comes across as the most genuine in her attraction to him. I didn't like the change in her outfit in her intro scene though, that struck me as a bit odd.

As for Malena, she had a good, albeit cliche introduction scene and I hoped since she appeared so late the MC would at least be a blank slate for her where she'd be able to get her impression of him from scratch, but no, she's somehow a fan of him from the college basketball times. Of course she is. The main issue I have with her is just how over the top she is. I liked her story beats, i.e. her being an officer, a victim of attempted rape, her killing the assailant, but everything else about her is blown way out of proportion. She's somehow a hand to hand combat expert which is already implausible enough, but then she proceeds to give the worst advice on self defence ever given in this universe and of course she's rich. This is comic book level of character design (not saying it's bad) that wildly clashes with excruciatingly realistic legal minutiae. A good example of a female military officer with past trauma is Elspeth from Unbroken. She's capable without upstaging MC, and she's tonally consistent with that story. Hell, even that cow mating chick from Alive did not jar me as much, at least she had a military occupation that is reasonable and her whole subplot fit within a less serious overarching story.

P.S. I also don't find any LI's body types to be appealing they are all just so exaggerated. Well, there's no accounting for everyone's tastes, I'm sure a lot of people like them.

 

[jufot]

She's capable without upstaging MC

Why is that important? I'm not saying that should never be the case, but so what if an LI is "better" than the MC?

 

[Vasin]

Why is that important? I'm not saying that should never be the case, but so what if an LI is "better" than the MC?

What does "better" in this situation mean? If there's a game where there's a LI that's better written than the MC then the game might as well be about that LI and the actual story is about them. It's sort of like Alive's main character being that blue haired girl that I forgot the name of. Or Leap of Faith's Cece. They are not protagonists, but main characters.

I think for me it's mostly about story coherency, it's not that a character (any character) can't be better and MC at something, it's about making sure that the story has a narrative focus. There are games where the focus is not on the character you're playing and that's fine, but in a game where you have multiple LIs and a protagonist, having the mc be wet noodle without a core makes them profoundly uninteresting to me. This is not the case for either game mentioned in my original comment though. If anything, we haven't seen the actual dynamics of Rockford/Malena relationship yet.

Also in my anecdotal experience, relationships where one side is "better" and has to carry it all don't tend to work out.

P.S. In hindsight I should have phrased that better, the "upstaging" part did not in any way refer to Leaving DNA's characters.

 

[jufot]

They are not protagonists, but main characters.

Ah, now I understand. When you said Elspeth was capable without upstaging MC, I read that as you thinking Malena does upstage Rockford, which confused me. As in, she's a better conversationalist, is more assertive, and has a much stronger personality than Rockford and I count those as being "better" than him, but I didn't see those as problems, hence my question

 

[desmosome]

What does "better" in this situation mean? If there's a game where there's a LI that's better written than the MC then the game might as well be about that LI and the actual story is about them. It's sort of like Alive's main character being that blue haired girl that I forgot the name of. Or Leap of Faith's Cece. They are not protagonists, but main characters.

I think for me it's mostly about story coherency, it's not that a character (any character) can't be better and MC at something, it's about making sure that the story has a narrative focus. There are games where the focus is not on the character you're playing and that's fine, but in a game where you have multiple LIs and a protagonist, having the mc be wet noodle without a core makes them profoundly uninteresting to me. This is not the case for either game mentioned in my original comment though. If anything, we haven't seen the actual dynamics of Rockford/Malena relationship yet.

Also in my anecdotal experience, relationships where one side is "better" and has to carry it all don't tend to work out.

P.S. In hindsight I should have phrased that better, the "upstaging" part did not in any way refer to Leaving DNA's characters.

It's fairly common in media for the main character to be an average joe the audience can relate to, while the side characters surrounding him are exceptional people. Of course, this average joe goes through the hero's journey most of the time and comes in clutch at a decisive moment, but upstaging the main character isn't anything exceptional or rare in storytelling.

 

[Vasin]

Ah, now I understand. When you said Elspeth was capable without upstaging MC, I read that as you thinking Malena does upstage Rockford, which confused me. As in, she's a better conversationalist, is more assertive, and has a much stronger personality than Rockford and I count those as being "better" than him, but I didn't see those as problems, hence my question

That was my bad, I do agree that Malena is a more impressive character than Rockford at least as far as outward presentation goes, and I don't necessarily hate her character, she's the type that I like, I just don't think the first impression that she gave me meshes well with the tone of the story, but she has had little screentime so far, so it's not all told.

It's fairly common in media for the main character to be an average joe the audience can relate to, while the side characters surrounding him are exceptional people. Of course, this average joe goes through the hero's journey most of the time and comes in clutch at a decisive moment, but upstaging the main character isn't anything exceptional or rare in storytelling.

I think we're arguing semantics here, there definitely is a tradition of upstaging the protagonists of the story (I'm thinking of Hughie from The Boys for example), but the average Joe is rarely a main character of the story, at best they graduate to that status via extensive character growth. Most of the time they're just an audience stand-in.

 

[EndlessNights]

Oh, it wasn't the portrayal I objected to. In fact, I found it quite visceral and realistic. I just thought an incest trial about a relationship more like the gray areas Ryan was describing in chapter 1 would have been more interesting. As it stands, this was a simple "bad guy gets his comeuppance" case which, while well done, didn't provide the intellectual stimulation I was hoping for.

I thought the scene made for a good and sobering counterbalance to that conversation personally. The reality of incest a prosecutor is likely to encounter in the courtroom is going to be far removed from a singular relationship a psychologist might write an interesting case study about or a theoretical pairing we might invent in our minds during an intellectual debate. Because it is such a powerful scene, I can understand wanting it to have more of an impact on the overall story. For K.B., it's clearly one of the most significant and harrowing moments in her life, something she'll carry with her the rest of her life. For Jamie, it's also an emotional event to a degree, but it's also just another day at the office for her and Sara...just one case among many that she'll work on over the course of her career, and not a particularly hard one to win. Rockford's murder case though also not bereft of tragedy may end up seeming even more ordinary, but I'm glad we're getting these mundane prosecutor slice of life moments because the main plot case is likely to end up quite convoluted and unusual, if not downright improbable.

Thanks for sharing your insights, by the way. You tend to have a much better read on the emotional side of things and point out the bits I tend to miss.

Thank you! I like to think that one reason this thread works so well is that we each bring our own particular set of skills and weirdo viewpoints to the table. Out of the chaos something beautiful usually emerges in the end. We have you to thank not only for bringing your own insights but creating this space for us and occasionally keeping us in line and focused.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[moskyx]

I thought the scene made for a good and sobering counterbalance to that conversation personally. The reality of incest a prosecutor is likely to encounter in the courtroom is going to be far removed from a singular relationship a psychologist might write an interesting case study about or a theoretical pairing we might invent in our minds during an intellectual debate. Because it is such a powerful scene, I can understand wanting it to have more of an impact on the overall story. For K.B., it's clearly one of the most significant and harrowing moments in her life, something she'll carry with her the rest of her life. For Jamie, it's also an emotional event to a degree, but it's also just another day at the office for her and Sara...just one case among many that she'll work on over the course of her career, and not a particularly hard one to win. Rockford's murder case though also not bereft of tragedy may end up seeming even more ordinary, but I'm glad we're getting these mundane prosecutor slice of life moments because the main plot case is likely to end up quite convoluted and unusual, if not downright improbable.



Thank you! I like to think that one reason this thread works so well is that we each bring our own particular set of skills and weirdo viewpoints to the table. Out of the chaos something beautiful usually emerges in the end. We have you to thank not only for bringing your own insights but creating this space for us and occasionally keeping us in line and focused.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Yeah, I remember the dev using that same reasons to explain MC's reaction to the Emmeline incident