Recommending Story-first games

[Cskin Games]

I'll just make a very simple point here -

Many of the college games I've played (badik, mine, a few others I'm slightly embarrassed to admit to having played so I won't), are fairly similar to the college experience of myself, and quite a few others I know. Well - that is if you take out most of the main plotlines from these games.

That is - Lots of alcohol (regardless of your age), lots of drugs (Though not everyone partook, they were definitely around a-plenty), Lots of sex, pretty frequent parties (Although in my experience most were "small" in compared to how they tend to be portrayed. An average was maybe 4-7 people, exceeding that only a few times a year... granted you could argue 4 people isn't a party, but it was the way we did it!), and a lot of faculty being .... let's say fairly liberal in their application of rules and policies. (in particular pretty strict on the no cheating, pretty lax on the "no alcohol on campus"). Of course there was always that one who would enforce rules to the letter, but that wasn't the majority for sure.

In all honesty, if you just take what you see in these games, remove the "drama" of the main storylines (Not that there wasn't a ton of interpersonal drama, because there definitely was, but that's not usually what fuels the main story), and dial everything down a few notches, it starts to ring pretty true.

And If I'm being REALLY honest, if you compare anything in these games to high school, it REALLY makes me wonder what sort of high school YOU went to.

Speaking of lack of verisimilitude, that's one of my gripes about _Law School_. The game is supposedly set at an American law school founded by Europeans... but all the students appear to be undergraduates.

I'll note, I haven't played the game, so I'm only relying on the screenshots available in the game thread - but your normal graduate student (and law student by extension) is in their early 20s - and those screenshots seem to fit the bill pretty well IMO. Granted some people start later but... just a quick google search says the average starting age for law students is between 22-24, while the median age seems to be 26.

Again, I haven't played the game, so this is based on a handful of screenshots only.

 

[jufot]

In all honesty, if you just take what you see in these games, remove the "drama" of the main storylines (Not that there wasn't a ton of interpersonal drama, because there definitely was, but that's not usually what fuels the main story), and dial everything down a few notches, it starts to ring pretty true.

Nothing in your post is overtly objectionable to me, so I suppose we differ on the definition of "a few" in "a few notches". I'll start taking these games more seriously when they stop having literally every character with a vagina thinking the protagonist is god's gift to womankind.

 

[Raife]

I'll note, I haven't played the game, so I'm only relying on the screenshots available in the game thread - but your normal graduate student (and law student by extension) is in their early 20s - and those screenshots seem to fit the bill pretty well IMO. Granted some people start later but... just a quick google search says the average starting age for law students is between 22-24, while the median age seems to be 26.

Again, I haven't played the game, so this is based on a handful of screenshots only.

The models look right for American JD students, noping... they appear circa the right age (22-24). My point is that the story has them as 18 or 19 -- first year undergraduates who are leaving home for the first time, which is wrong for the American setting. Way, way back when, you could do law as a first degree in the US. But that hasn't been the case in my lifetime. These days it's a graduate degree that you do only _after_ your first degree.

In other words, the dev has the 18-19 year law students (normal in Europe and most of the world) in an American setting (where they'd have finished their first degree and be at least 22). It's just a blunder.

 

[Mr Georgie]

Finally played through your first chapter... and it's lovely. As I said in my review, there's a large dollop of wisdom smuggled into the narrative, particularly on how some men misconceive relationships or idealize women without really knowing them. Bravo.

Your first sex scene was extremely hot. It drove home something that I've mentioned before: kissing, or even simply touching someone where the level of mutual attraction is off the charts... is a revelation. It's not comparable with anything else. At one point, the MC wonders 'what's wrong with me... why can't I stop!?' That hit me right in the feels.

Your difficulty, Georgie, is that the maturity of your perspective on life will almost certainly alienate some immature, incel players... as much as it gratifies me or jufot. But it's beautiful, nonetheless.

Thank you for your kind words Raife!!!
I knew this story would not be loved by everyone, but that was not my intention either, I know pleasing everybody is impossible. I want to reach the right people with the stories I want to tell, and I'm so glad that you guys are the right people.

 

[Cskin Games]

The models look right for American JD students, noping... they appear circa the right age (22-24). My point is that the story has them as 18 or 19 -- first year undergraduates who are leaving home for the first time, which is wrong for the American setting. Way, way back when, you could do law as a first degree in the US. But that hasn't been the case in my lifetime. These days it's a graduate degree that you do only _after_ your first degree.

In other words, the dev has the 18-19 year law students (normal in Europe and most of the world) in an American setting (where they'd have finished their first degree and be at least 22). It's just a blunder.

Fair enough then, as I said haven't played it. If they're actually named as 18-19, then yea that's wrong. Which is weird because they LOOK older than that...

This is why my game is totally set in the fictional land of Americanada. (It's america, with the drinking laws of canada. I'm not saying that's the canon location... I'm just approaching it that way!).

 

[moskyx]

Fair enough then, as I said haven't played it. If they're actually named as 18-19, then yea that's wrong. Which is weird because they LOOK older than that...

This is why my game is totally set in the fictional land of Americanada. (It's america, with the drinking laws of canada. I'm not saying that's the canon location... I'm just approaching it that way!).

Fun fact: the term 'Americanada' is broadly used in common Spanish to mock your average Hollywood blockbuster with lots of action, fights, explosions, a predictable love story, and of course a very 'murican' hero who saves the world at the very last minute - i.e. 'Armageddon is such an americanada.'

 

[EndlessNights]

Many of the college games I've played (badik, mine, a few others I'm slightly embarrassed to admit to having played so I won't), are fairly similar to the college experience of myself, and quite a few others I know. Well - that is if you take out most of the main plotlines from these games.

When I talk about "colleges" in AVNs often reminding me more of high schools, I'm thinking more of aspects like school uniforms, lockers, tiny campuses, the presence of principals instead of deans, teachers who teach disparate subject areas seemingly without being subject matter experts, the existence of punishments such as detention, regimented schedules where classes begin in the morning and end in the afternoon each day, and the general look of the buildings and classrooms. That's not to say there aren't universities in the world that have some of these attributes as well, but the more of these features I see the worse my immersion and the less the setting invokes college for me.

 

[Slick Bean]

Student Population at Harvard University

2023 Student Population	Undergraduate	Graduate
30,631	9,368	21,263

For the academic year 2022-2023, total of 30,631 students have enrolled in Harvard University with 9,368 undergraduate and 21,263 graduate students.
By gender, 14,778 male and 16,567 female students are attending the school.

It has many more students compared to similar colleges (19,694 students in average - private (not-for-profit) Research University (very high research activity)).

10,495 students are enrolled exclusively, and 1,434 students are enrolled in some online courses.

You can check the student demographics by gender ratio, race/ethnicity, age distribution, and online enrollment:

Spoiler: Student demographics:

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What a doozy: how hard is it for any developer to open the internet site of any private or public university
and have a look see about the actual structure of the faculty, the actual titles, the actual departments, the actual
job sheets, the actual housing they propose ...

I'll just make a very simple point here -

Many of the college games I've played (badik, mine, a few others I'm slightly embarrassed to admit to having played so I won't), are fairly similar to the college experience of myself, and quite a few others I know. Well - that is if you take out most of the main plotlines from these games.

That is - Lots of alcohol (regardless of your age), lots of drugs (Though not everyone partook, they were definitely around a-plenty), Lots of sex, pretty frequent parties (Although in my experience most were "small" in compared to how they tend to be portrayed. An average was maybe 4-7 people, exceeding that only a few times a year... granted you could argue 4 people isn't a party, but it was the way we did it!), and a lot of faculty being .... let's say fairly liberal in their application of rules and policies. (in particular pretty strict on the no cheating, pretty lax on the "no alcohol on campus"). Of course there was always that one who would enforce rules to the letter, but that wasn't the majority for sure.

In all honesty, if you just take what you see in these games, remove the "drama" of the main storylines (Not that there wasn't a ton of interpersonal drama, because there definitely was, but that's not usually what fuels the main story), and dial everything down a few notches, it starts to ring pretty true.

And If I'm being REALLY honest, if you compare anything in these games to high school, it REALLY makes me wonder what sort of high school YOU went to.



I'll note, I haven't played the game, so I'm only relying on the screenshots available in the game thread - but your normal graduate student (and law student by extension) is in their early 20s - and those screenshots seem to fit the bill pretty well IMO. Granted some people start later but... just a quick google search says the average starting age for law students is between 22-24, while the median age seems to be 26.

Again, I haven't played the game, so this is based on a handful of screenshots only.

The models look right for American JD students, noping... they appear circa the right age (22-24). My point is that the story has them as 18 or 19 -- first year undergraduates who are leaving home for the first time, which is wrong for the American setting. Way, way back when, you could do law as a first degree in the US. But that hasn't been the case in my lifetime. These days it's a graduate degree that you do only _after_ your first degree.

In other words, the dev has the 18-19 year law students (normal in Europe and most of the world) in an American setting (where they'd have finished their first degree and be at least 22). It's just a blunder.

Fair enough then, as I said haven't played it. If they're actually named as 18-19, then yea that's wrong. Which is weird because they LOOK older than that...

This is why my game is totally set in the fictional land of Americanada. (It's america, with the drinking laws of canada. I'm not saying that's the canon location... I'm just approaching it that way!).

Fun fact: the term 'Americanada' is broadly used in common Spanish to mock your average Hollywood blockbuster with lots of action, fights, explosions, a predictable love story, and of course a very 'murican' hero who saves the world at the very last minute - i.e. 'Armageddon is such an americanada.'

When I talk about "colleges" in AVNs often reminding me more of high schools, I'm thinking more of aspects like school uniforms, lockers, tiny campuses, the presence of principals instead of deans, teachers who teach disparate subject areas seemingly without being subject matter experts, the existence of punishments such as detention, regimented schedules where classes begin in the morning and end in the afternoon each day, and the general look of the buildings and classrooms. That's not to say there aren't universities in the world that have some of these attributes as well, but the more of these features I see the worse my immersion and the less the setting invokes college for me.

Not to mention they could simply go to their former place of learning or higher learning and have a look around,
have a talk with their former teachers, get promotional skits about the new school year - have that actual real
information avaiulable to everyone be the basis of their fantasy.

How bad is it to just put a disclaimer: ”the high school life as we remember it” - straight up outta their skewed memories.

 

[Cskin Games]

When I talk about "colleges" in AVNs often reminding me more of high schools, I'm thinking more of aspects like school uniforms, lockers, tiny campuses, the presence of principals instead of deans, teachers who teach disparate subject areas seemingly without being subject matter experts, the existence of punishments such as detention, regimented schedules where classes begin in the morning and end in the afternoon each day, and the general look of the buildings and classrooms. That's not to say there aren't universities in the world that have some of these attributes as well, but the more of these features I see the worse my immersion and the less the setting invokes college for me.

I will admit, of all the college games ive played, I haven't seen any of those elements except for the lockers (which generally I've only seen around athletic areas of campus) - so fair enough. I guess I just haven't played as many games as you have. (well tiny campus sometimes too, but I see that as more of a "It's hard to render full campuses in daz) - All of those things you listed definitely aren't things you'd commonly see outside of high school.

It almost seems like the devs you're talking about are trying to portray a high school setting, without getting dinked by patreons rules... hmmm...

 

[jamdan]

What a doozy: how hard is it for any developer to open the internet site of any private or public university
and have a look see about the actual structure of the faculty, the actual titles, the actual departments, the actual
job sheets, the actual housing they propose ...

Most college games aren't meant to be accurate or even plausibly realistic, colleges are just an easy way to have lots of LI's, student-teacher tropes, hot cheerleaders and that sort of thing.

 

[Vasin]

I think visual "high school" likeness of colleges is more due to authors working with limited pre-existing asset library rather than custom making every single asset. Not even AAA gaming developers have enough time to spend on tailoring every single piece they put in the game, let alone a single developer living in their mom's basement.

That's why it's the same damn park with the same benches in every. single. game.

Not that big of a deal for me, but hey, I'll take text only over graphics any day of the week.

 

[Ezykeyal]

I tried to stay a bit more grounded when it comes to the college theme, and craft a unique look... but no one cares about that.

 

[Cskin Games]

I think visual "high school" likeness of colleges is more due to authors working with limited pre-existing asset library rather than custom making every single asset. Not even AAA gaming developers have enough time to spend on tailoring every single piece they put in the game, let alone a single developer living in their mom's basement.

That's why it's the same damn park with the same benches in every. single. game.

Not that big of a deal for me, but hey, I'll take text only over graphics any day of the week.

That is 100% accurate. If I do a search for "college" or "university" at the main asset store I get exactly TWO hits that are actual campuses, and not classrooms or dorm rooms. (And one of them is brand new - just came out this week, and is exterior only). If I do high school, I get 6 different interiors, and 1 exterior - plus one I know used to be there and has since been removed, plus about the same amount of classrooms, plus cafeterias, gyms, and a few other "high school style" classrooms.

The same can be said for other stores where these things are available.

It's a recurring problem with a lot of settings - there's only so many "movie theaters" or "restaurants" or "schools" (I could go on but you get the point) available. Sometimes they work for exactly what you want, other times they're not even close.

Hell, my next chapter has a scene in a park, and I've been looking for an appropriate setting to use for it.... so far my choices are at 2 - and I guarantee you've seen both. (One more than the other for sure though! Good ol' Haven Park.) As a dev you either have to suck it up and use it even if its been used a million times before, or re-write everything just to ... have a different setting. Or make your own stuff. I can promise you, making your own stuff is NOT worth the time for anything other than pride.

 

[Ezykeyal]

Or make your own stuff. I can promise you, making your own stuff is NOT worth the time for anything other than pride.

Making your own stuff helps you tell the exact story you want. Is it worth the time? Probably not for most people, especially those that start wtihout prior knowledge. But to say it's just a pride thing, I disagree.

 

[Cskin Games]

Making your own stuff helps you tell the exact story you want. Is it worth the time? Probably not for most people, especially those that start wtihout prior knowledge. But to say it's just a pride thing, I disagree.

It depends what you mean by "making your own stuff". If you mean kitbashing things together, then yea it can help tell the exact story you want. If you mean actually building it from the ground up? Like going into blender and designing your own enviroments and whatnot? I maintain it's little more than pride. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong at all with being proud of your work - but looking at every since instance I've seen of that happening? (Whether it be devs making their own stuff, or commisioning it which I've seen plenty) - using something that already existed wouldn't have diminished the story in some way, it simply would have been less unique, and possibly a little different than the dev originally envisioned it - but only in a "Well this isn't what I originally pictured, but it works" way, not in a "This totally changes the story!" way.

You're free to disagree and view it differently, but tbh it's not something I'd change my mind on.

 

[Slick Bean]

To be clear ... games are great and what draws players are certainly not the halls, the rooms or the outside walls of whatever dorm or house or garden or park you got in there - your custom wallpaper, the decor you put on them is what gives the feel of belonging in the story and the atmosphere of the game.

You are right that nobody cares about mundane stuff like where the characters walk or stay or work or play,
as many times the settings will be totally new to players when they meet the characters in their plot surroundings.

On the other hand, it is never wrong to say ”this used to be all girls primary tuition institute” in the 1870s,
or ”this was designed originally as the dorms for the national rugby yearly competition” back in the 1950s,
or whatever you wish to portray the simple fact you did not build it from the ground up,
like you are limited with assets, but you get to change to feel of the settings with lights, colors, wall decorations.

Making your own stuff helps you tell the exact story you want. Is it worth the time? Probably not for most people, especially those that start wtihout prior knowledge. But to say it's just a pride thing, I disagree.

What was intended about posting the 2023 Harvard statistics was that you can find accurate numbers
about the procentage of young adult students and the fact that undergraduartes are mostly between 18 and 25 yearolds.

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It depends what you mean by "making your own stuff". If you mean kitbashing things together, then yea it can help tell the exact story you want. If you mean actually building it from the ground up? Like going into blender and designing your own enviroments and whatnot? I maintain it's little more than pride. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong at all with being proud of your work - but looking at every since instance I've seen of that happening? (Whether it be devs making their own stuff, or commisioning it which I've seen plenty) - using something that already existed wouldn't have diminished the story in some way, it simply would have been less unique, and possibly a little different than the dev originally envisioned it - but only in a "Well this isn't what I originally pictured, but it works" way, not in a "This totally changes the story!" way.

You're free to disagree and view it differently, but tbh it's not something I'd change my mind on.

The script and how you make a compelling argument for the game setting matching the story is the key here.

 

[Ezykeyal]

Sure, kitbashing is already a step up from just taking the standard pre-made environments that are available. We're crafting something called Visual Novels here. Funnily enough, it has something to do with visuals. You tell half your story with it, and thus I'm of the opinion that it's in general in your best interest to make those visuals stand out as much as possible (which again has absolutely nothing to do with pride).

But unfortunately, this doesn't seem all worth doing if you're making a porno where no one cares so much about a story.

 

[Slick Bean]

Already had one go at a game where the dialogues did not go with the renders,
the dialogues pointed to things not being on screen.
On the other hand, taking a girl to a place you know as the back of your hand,
that park you remember, could be a very good setting for jokes in the game,
”I remember I saw This girl performing ... on some dude last year”
”there were girls meeting near the fountain where some old dude scared them to screams”
all sorts of digs that can go in the script stemming from - ”I saw the same park in my friends games”
and ”those scenes were going on in those other games” in this very park.

That's why it's the same damn park with the same benches in every. single. game.

 

[Jaike]

Okay, I guess my trope-based restatement of the NACGB platform caused a bit of a stir. EndlessNights said most of what I'd want to say. Simply put, one class of students being instructed in obviously the same classroom all day, usually by the same teacher, with a continuous morning-to-afternoon schedule. That doesn't feel like a university setting, so I'm going to pick up on that if you sell it as that.

I accept that assets and reworking them are a limit that can get burdensome, even if you used the same classroom and just changed some details to make them look like a different room in the same building and had a few different models for instructors, though I think there are workarounds. In fact, I think you could totally write a college story with

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that rings truer than the typical college VN.

I understand too that there are reasons for limiting the character cast for all kinds of reasons. Assets, writing, less people begging to make the new extra an LI, all that.

I want to underline too that I was trying to formulate my own aesthetic preference about actually existing college games and why I see most of the ones I played as not story-focused for setting reasons. NACGB is a joke in the debate if a game fits the criteria of this thread after all. It's not that you can't like them or that none of them fit in this thread, or that I expect a dev to cater to my likes.

Most college games aren't meant to be accurate or even plausibly realistic, colleges are just an easy way to have lots of LI's, student-teacher tropes, hot cheerleaders and that sort of thing.

That's a good point, but as a goal it's pretty killing for a game's story-first creds too.

And If I'm being REALLY honest, if you compare anything in these games to high school, it REALLY makes me wonder what sort of high school YOU went to.

I'd elaborate, but I got myself solemnly sworn to "no TMI" just a page ago.

But I compared the games to American high school movies, not my own school life.

Having participated in your polls, my guess is that you're not letting down the side.

I wanna avoid any misunderstanding here, my personal experience with corruption and foot fetish are zero.

Unless they are as smart as you, Jaike,

You know, someone smarter than me would've like realised sooner that remarking you got busy is hardly "nailing" you "right in the goolies"!

 

[Raife]

You know, someone smarter than me would've like realised sooner that remarking you got busy is hardly "nailing" you "right in the goolies"!

Oh yes it is, since you were (justifiably) making fun of my various hypocrisies.

Here's

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Jaike.