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Recommending Story-first games

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Apr 2, 2019
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On the positive side, despite the obvious "sex and porn = a lot more money than any other adult themes" as shown from the patreon things, there are still developers that try to write a story with their AVN.
And i'm very happy that this thread focus on those, it's very helpful when looking for some good adult story in VN format in the middle of the thousands of AVN that are found on this website

If there's another popular board that focus on story based VN with adult/mature themes unfortunately i have not found it yet, the only other places where i found discussions about visual novels were only about "all age" and mostly about only anime/manga styled VN that aren't my cup of tea.
And that's mostly why i came on F95 as it seemed to be the most popular (i mean in term of amount of people discussing) place for AVN without a focus on mostly anime/manga, but i found out since then that AVN here is at least 90% about only porn (not even about sexuality themes, i mean just porn) and not really adult stories.
Still at least there are some good story based AVN around fortunately.
 
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Tlaero

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Nov 24, 2018
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I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry over the fact that - "those who like good stories" are just as niche as "hard-core vore consumers".
There's what seems to be an interesting effect here. Consider travelling along the line from "video" to "text" when talking about sexual stuff.


If anyone does stories in Adult Movies (Porn) it's a tiny, tiny niche.

Adult Visual Novels have both pictures and text, and story based ones are a niche, but a MUCH bigger one than in Porn.

Adult Text Novels (The Romance Genre) are almost entirely text (maybe one cover image) and tend to have more story than most VNs. While they're also a niche, they're a very large and successful one.


One might conclude that, in sexual situations, images are the enemy of story. :)

Tlaero
 

Mravac Kid

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Jun 5, 2021
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One might conclude that, in sexual situations, images are the enemy of story. :)
I'd say in large part it comes down to whether the images are there to complement the story or as is often the case in both porn and adult games the story is there just to connect the images.
 
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Deleted member 2577953

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There's what seems to be an interesting effect here. Consider travelling along the line from "video" to "text" when talking about sexual stuff.


If anyone does stories in Adult Movies (Porn) it's a tiny, tiny niche.

Adult Visual Novels have both pictures and text, and story based ones are a niche, but a MUCH bigger one than in Porn.

Adult Text Novels (The Romance Genre) are almost entirely text (maybe one cover image) and tend to have more story than most VNs. While they're also a niche, they're a very large and successful one.


One might conclude that, in sexual situations, images are the enemy of story. :)

Tlaero
Never really thought of it that way until now. But yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

The next big question though, is - which one is easier to succeed in?

A platform that provides high visibility but also has users that mostly avoid unique stories -OR- the ones where the story is appreciated, but the visibility is very low due to the endless competition?

I always believed f95 is one of the best platforms to reach out to AVN audience. I doubt I'd find any webnovel platform that can garner as many audience for a work done by a newbie or a total nobody.

(Or maybe I'm just relying on this site too much, and using it as a crutch. I don't know.)
 

Tlaero

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The next big question though, is - which one is easier to succeed in?
I think that depends on your definition of "success."

If you're talking about financial success to the level where you can quit your day job, there is no endeavor anywhere that is easy to gain that level of success in. (Though, maybe the closest one is programming/computer science.)

If, on the other hand, you define success as having fans that enjoy your work, then a good path is to write the kind of games you want to play, and you'll likely find a (possibly small) group that likes them too.

Tlaero
 

Éama

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Apr 17, 2022
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It's not just about gaming though. Porn platforms that provide context and story like Bellesa have considerably less traffic than Pornhub and other hardcore porn sites. For the average person pornography and erotica are not a form of (self)expression and creativity but pure consumption. It's not much different from cooking food. A good meal is a factory farmed piece of meat with potatoes or fries and not self-made casserole with fresh herbs from the garden. And the average "good movie" is a bunch of guys destroying the environment with superpowers and not relationships that live and evolve.

You could say that creativity at large is niche. I'm not saying this from a pessimistic point of view. I don't mind it, apart from the fact that this makes many everyday events very superficial. But it's what I observed and why we gather in places like this thread to find each other and do something differently. For me daily fastfood, Marvel movies and hardcore pornography would be the equivalent of dying. So, I'm glad there are people who thrive on being niche.
 

noping123

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My reaction to _Twin Eclipse_ was very similar, Tlaero, particularly to your point about storytelling momentum and retaining reader attention (in your spoiler).

Twin Eclipse is great, but it's biggest issue is retaining player interest until the plot takes a turn. I played through the first 1.5 acts in a sort of relaxed, semi-meditative state... primarily because I enjoyed the art and because I was (slightly) curious about where Arisushi was going... not because I found the story particularly compelling.

When the turn finally came, I _was_ hooked. But will most players stay engaged long enough for the story to gain momentum?

It's similar to my complaint about noping's first game, _Alive_. He (the dev) has a brilliant plot twist in mind, and understood the MCs backstory and reasons for his (disengaged, floating) behaviour... but we (the players) do not. So a player must be extremely patient until the plot reveals itself. I don't think most players are that patient.

Hooking players from the beginning strikes me as essential, particularly in story-first games that don't rely on porn. One of the best recent examples I can think of is _Shards of the Past_. Garou dumps the player right in the middle of a propulsive scene, which grips us _immediately_. There was no need for excessive exposition or introduction... we learn a great deal about the MC and the NPCs right away in a rather naturalistic way, as they react to events.

Let me be clear: I enjoyed Arisushi's new game a great deal. But... I wonder if the way it opens might deter some players.

You know it's funny. I've heard this before (from you, and others) but never really thought about it this way... I guess, in the perspective of a player. While I always sort of understood the point, I couldn't help but look at things from the perspective of an omniscient writer - as opposed to that of a player who lacks all the information.

For some reason the way you said this, really did make a few things "click" - which I think (among other reasons, certainly not the only) is one of the reasons the beginning of NSL is being received much better - that "hook" exists, and it comes very early.

It made me now think back to a number of games I've tried in the past - some of which have been extremely well received, and how I just never got into them. Many of them suffered the same problem - they lacked anything in the story to "draw you in" early, and instead relied on playing the long game. Many of them also attempted to make up for this by having the sex show up early and often - if they couldn't keep players invested early on with the story, they'd instead try with sex.

Ultimately it's not surprising in a field where almost every writer is an amateur, which tbf I think makes the well-written stuff all the more impressive.

It also ties in to something I've been thinking about a lot lately - the concept of an elevator pitch. Keeping things succinct is something I've always struggled with - any attempt to explain my thoughts has always been overly verbose - so I've thought about it a lot. For example, if I were to write an elevator pitch for NSL, what would it be? (Spoiler alert - I still haven't come up with something short enough to qualify.) Thinking about it in those terms though, I think has helped me with crafting the overall storyline. While I still might not be able to describe the game accurately in 50 words or less, I have made an effort to try to craft the "core" of the storylines in that mold, and then build around it - obviously you'd be a much better judge of it than me, but I feel like that approach has helped the writing for this game a decent bit.


I think devs in general would benefit from using a similar approach at times - since we really do have so little time to convince a player to keep going. Rather than writing our ideas, and building stories from them - at some point in the process, try to be as reductive as possible to our ideas, and then grow outwards. We exist in a space where sex and story are really the only 2 ways we have to grab someone immediately (One could argue art, but I know a couple of games with absolutely stunning art that have done poorly recently because they fail at the other 2) - and if we don't want to go all in on the sex, we have to make sure we're grabbing people with the story.

Then again, just like all but a small handful of people in this field, I to am just an amateur, so what do I know, really?
 

Raife

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It also ties in to something I've been thinking about a lot lately - the concept of an elevator pitch. Keeping things succinct is something I've always struggled with - any attempt to explain my thoughts has always been overly verbose - so I've thought about it a lot. For example, if I were to write an elevator pitch for NSL, what would it be?
That's one of the reasons why I asked you about 'lessons learned' from _Alive_ that you're seeking to apply in NSL, noping. You said that there weren't very many... but I think that you learned some very significant things from your first crack -- albeit perhaps unconsciously -- including the necessity of finding a hook for players near the beginning.

As for an elevator pitch for NSL, I think your new game is about trauma and resilience. The MC is trying to discover whether he can overcome a devastating loss and rebuild strong emotional connections with others, or whether he is haunted so much by what might have been that he lives a half-life of stunted, shallow relationships.
 

noping123

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That's one of the reasons why I asked you before about 'lessons learned' from _Alive_ that you're seeking to apply in NSL, noping. You said that there weren't very many... but I think that you learned some very significant things from your first crack -- albeit perhaps unconsciously -- including the necessity of finding a hook for players near the beginning.

As for an elevator pitch for NSL, I think your new game is about trauma and resilience. The MC is trying to discover whether he can overcome a devastating loss and rebuild strong emotional connections with others, or whether he is haunted so much by what might have been that he lives a half-life of stunted, shallow relationships.
Hah. I did mention that I wasn't consciously applying any, but I may be doing so without actually putting thought into it. It's absolutely possible I learned a ton I don't even realize I learned - more than possible, it's almost certain.

Any time I talk to wannabe devs these days, I always make sure to stress how helpful starting with something small and less ambitious will be - the amount of stuff they'll learn from it is insane, and no matter how "good" they are from the getgo, their 2nd project will always be much better because of it than if they attempted it first. For me I feel the biggest improvements in my renders and coding - but I'm sure they're there in the writing as well, even if I don't notice it as much.




In completely other news, I'm sad to see that it's starting to look more and more like The Artist is gonna get abandoned - it started off with a really interesting concept that I liked. Even if I wasn't a huge fan of the art style, it was trying something different so I can't fault it too much for that.
 

Raife

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we gather in places like this thread to find each other and do something differently. For me daily fastfood, Marvel movies and hardcore pornography would be the equivalent of dying. So, I'm glad there are people who thrive on being niche.
Encountering a thought like this, on F95, is like discovering new, green growth in a blasted, volcanic landscape. I more than agree... I'm with you, entirely.

Your reward is a passage from one of my favourite novels:

"The old bar waiter came drifting by and glanced softly at my weak Scotch and water. I shook my head and he bobbed his white thatch, and right then a dream walked in. It seemed to me for an instant that there was no sound in the bar, that the sharpies stopped sharping and the drunk on the stool stopped burbling away, and it was like just after the conductor taps on his music stand and raises his arms and holds them poised."
 
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Tlaero

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It also ties in to something I've been thinking about a lot lately - the concept of an elevator pitch. Keeping things succinct is something I've always struggled with - any attempt to explain my thoughts has always been overly verbose - so I've thought about it a lot. For example, if I were to write an elevator pitch for NSL, what would it be? (Spoiler alert - I still haven't come up with something short enough to qualify.) Thinking about it in those terms though, I think has helped me with crafting the overall storyline. While I still might not be able to describe the game accurately in 50 words or less, I have made an effort to try to craft the "core" of the storylines in that mold, and then build around it - obviously you'd be a much better judge of it than me, but I feel like that approach has helped the writing for this game a decent bit.
I've literally done an elevator pitch, in an elevator, to a editor at a big publishing house. It's not 50 words. It's 5 to 10. The 50 word synopsis is what you get to give if you catch their interest with the elevator pitch. (So, have both prepared...)

An example of an elevator pitch is, "It's The Abyss on Europa wrapped in a murder mystery."

Tlaero
 

Tlaero

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Any time I talk to wannabe devs these days, I always make sure to stress how helpful starting with something small and less ambitious will be - the amount of stuff they'll learn from it is insane, and no matter how "good" they are from the getgo, their 2nd project will always be much better because of it than if they attempted it first.
I'm a huge fan of this advice.

Tlaero
 

jufot

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May 15, 2021
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We exist in a space where sex and story are really the only 2 ways we have to grab someone immediately (One could argue art, but I know a couple of games with absolutely stunning art that have done poorly recently because they fail at the other 2)
Art is a distant third, and sex (sadly) leads by a margin. But once you make the jump from "I'll make a sex game" to "my game will have sex", you have a lot more breathing room. ebi-hime's games are a good example. They have a handful of simple anime sprites, maybe a dozen (mediocre) CGs, and walls and walls of text. Yet somehow, they all have positive reviews on Steam, and she's been able to keep it going for years. If that's not success, I don't know what is.
 

(1Flash1)

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Спасибо за список игра..прошел недавно summer's gone и просто не могу прийти в себя,шикарная игра после вечности.анимация,картинки,диалоги,персонажи,девочки и главное сюжет.всё просто волшебно,как раз искал подобные игры
 
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Jaike

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Спасибо за список игра..прошел недавно summer's gone и просто не могу прийти в себя,шикарная игра после вечности.анимация,картинки,диалоги,персонажи,девочки и главное сюжет.всё просто волшебно,как раз искал подобные игры
Это английский форум. На этом форуме ты можешь только писать на английском или должен включить английский перевод. Я переведу твой вопрос.

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They like your list, jufot. The question is if anyone knows games similar to Summer's Gone.
 
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MrPocketRocket

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Apr 30, 2023
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It's not just about gaming though. Porn platforms that provide context and story like Bellesa have considerably less traffic than Pornhub and other hardcore porn sites. For the average person pornography and erotica are not a form of (self)expression and creativity but pure consumption. It's not much different from cooking food. A good meal is a factory farmed piece of meat with potatoes or fries and not self-made casserole with fresh herbs from the garden. And the average "good movie" is a bunch of guys destroying the environment with superpowers and not relationships that live and evolve.

You could say that creativity at large is niche. I'm not saying this from a pessimistic point of view. I don't mind it, apart from the fact that this makes many everyday events very superficial. But it's what I observed and why we gather in places like this thread to find each other and do something differently. For me daily fastfood, Marvel movies and hardcore pornography would be the equivalent of dying. So, I'm glad there are people who thrive on being niche.
I have to push back on the statement that creativity is niche. It's a gross simplification of what creativity is and how it is applied. Marvel movies may not be your cup of tea, but they do not lack a squad of people that are creative in the making of those movies. Is the movie industry leaning towards a safe formula to make it's product? No doubt. I'm with you in what I think is your real point, which is that the audience does not favor all creativity, but that is just a product of people being people and most want to know what they get before they get it. This is why people go to the same vacation destination every year. We are creatures of habit. The same thing applies to AVNs. I think the genre will move toward more story telling if the consumer allows it. The genre has been dominated by programmers, but I see a shift into the story telling first product. In the end, nobody will succeed without support and it is a consumer's choice. It has always been.
 
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