Recommending Story-first games

[Tlaero]

Also, I'm a guy. (Sorry if the profile pic threw you off )

Sorry that I misgendered you!

Tlaero

 

[Raife]

Also, I'm a guy. (Sorry if the profile pic threw you off )

It happens to the best of us, Arisushi!

We could certainly do with more female devs, though... not that I'd ever encourage them to patronize this wretched den of scum and villainy, jufot's thread excepted wonderful, edifying forum. Tlaero is exceptional in so many ways.

 

[moskyx]

Did I ask anything from the Dev? I am not obsessed by tags, but, there are things I simply learned that don't agree with me, both game wise and story wise. You want to tell a story, fine, tell it. I've read many, will read many more. But, those weren't tags imposed on the Dev, those are tags that the Dev CHOSE themselves.

So, people should simply accept anything, with absolutely no critical sense, just because somebody was charitative enough to create it? In your view, saying that I will not read this or that because there are themes that I have learned by experience that don't agree with me, makes me a bully. And your entire rant about my choices, isn't?

How dare I, right? How dare I to even have the gall of telling people in a forum thread that I don't want to read things that glorify acts that I detest. Whatever those acts may be. How dare I ask for a clarification of what is there, when I didn't even ask for anything from the Dev, but from the fellow readers.

If a Dev doesn't know that some themes are controversial, it's probably a bad omen for what they are writing. If they do and decide to include it, then, asking for a clarification isn't bad form. I don't need to have the whole story plan or to be fully spoilered, just a why that is there, besides the obvious that it is there because they want.

Would this happen in dead trees media? No. You'd get to the middle of the book, stumble into a bad (for your tastes) plot point, and would have to decide if you'd continue to read or not. I, as a compulsive reader, many times clenched my literal teeth and pushed on, since I couldn't go to the author and ask, what is your idea here? where is this going? So I pushed on.

Now, now we can. That it may irk some authors, OK, but, it is their choice, both to include and to explain it. I, now, have the choice to consume their art, or not, based on any criteria that I stipulate, even before I spent any money on it. It is the reality of this new medium.

Apparently, from your comments, you either want people to not have a choice, or, you want people to shut up about their choices. You want a return to the Dead Trees media? You want gag orders on people. And I am the bully?

Peace

In my opinion, the issue arises because stating in this particular thread things like 'unless there is a clear explanation of what the tag refers to, I will not touch it and will always press Ignore Thread.' comes off a bit immature, and more suited to other 'recommendation' threads which were actually more like 'warning threads' or safe spaces for the easily offended by a certain genre. Sure you can do that and even ask the dev himself for some clarification about future tags, but here, posting it like that won't serve any other purpose than to make you look like one of those entitled users who plague the forum. That particular choice of words, 'I will not touch it and will always press Ignore Thread', is what makes the difference. Your reasons are well explained in the first sentence of your post, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with them, and that's the kind of reasoning we've come to expect from users in this thread - but this other part feels overreacted and totally out of place, as it sounds slightly and frighteningly close to those 'despicable' threads.

 

[Raife]

In my opinion, the issue arises because stating in this particular thread things like 'unless there is a clear explanation of what the tag refers to, I will not touch it and will always press Ignore Thread.' comes off a bit immature

Haaaaarumph! Well, well, moskyx, you patronizing poltroon... I _hate_ vore, and I will not be subjected to it. I don't want to be eaten by a giant plant, and have my MC's penis consumed, with his sperm, while he's being digested. That's gross and mean, you meanie. You're just one of those pro penis digestion people. It inflicts all sorts of emotional distress on me: I like my cock, and don't want it consumed. By a carnivorous plant, anyway. I do self-insert, though... into my MCs, not hungry giant venus flytraps. Ugggh.

AND that's why I keep telling those thicko vore devs to stop putting the vore tag on their vore games. First, because it's an offense to humanity, and second, because it will kill their market share. Nobody likes vore games except for the vore people, and there are about as many vore people as those story-first freaks. (Now _those_ people are really weird.)

What those vore dudes should really do is make a game with a MC that has a giant penis and huge, bulging muscles (other than his wondercock). All the LIs love his thunderdong, and fall under its spell. Just by looking. At the dong. That's what dongs do. That and the sex thing. I have _read_ about the sex!

Now _that_ would be an original plot with real curb appeal to the discerning connoisseur of story first games. It has never, ever, been done before. And the people will love it.

So there: I told you. Now you know, you thicko meanie vore guy. And the devs all know too. Because I told them.

 

[moskyx]

Haaaaarumph! Well, well, moskyx, you patronizing poltroon... I _hate_ vore, and I will not be subjected to it. I don't want to be eaten by a giant plant, and have my MC's penis consumed, with his sperm, while he's being digested. That's gross and mean, you meanie. You're just one of those pro penis digestion people. It inflicts all sorts of emotional distress on me: I like my cock, and don't want it consumed. By a carnivorous plant, anyway.

AND that's why I keep telling those thicko vore devs to stop putting the vore tag on their vore games. First, because it's an offense to humanity, and second, because it will kill their market share. Nobody like vore games except for the vore people, and there are about as many vore people as those story-first freaks. (Now _those_ people are really weird.)

What those vore dudes should really do is make a game with a MC that has a giant penis and huge, bulging muscles (other than his wondercock). All the LIs love his thunderdong, and fall under its spell. Just by looking. At the dong. That's what dongs do. That and the sex thing. I have _read_ about the sex!

Now _that_ would be an original plot with real curb appeal to the discerning connoisseur of story first games. It has never, ever, been done before. And the people will love it.

So there: I told you. Now you know, you thicko meanie vore guy. And the devs all know too. Because I told them.

With all due respect, I don't think this kind of comment really adds to the discussion, as it can only trigger more heated reactions. I was just trying to point out the gist of the issue, in my opinion, hoping there'd be some understanding from here on. Yours is a totally uncalled sarcastic message that won't help to rationalize the discussion. Bad move, really.

 

[Raife]

Yours is a totally uncalled sarcastic message that won't help to rationalize the discussion. Bad move, really.

You're right. You were trying to take us back up, and I took us back down. I am very sorry about that.

 

[MalkavianVamp]

https://f95zone.to/threads/the-primordial-v0-03-funkyd.164809/
Is a great game I especially liked the dev give 2 routes kind and rude /,cruel
Personally iam weak hearted so I went for kind route great game great story , great cutscenes,thanks

 

[365 others]

In my opinion, the issue arises because stating in this particular thread things like 'unless there is a clear explanation of what the tag refers to, I will not touch it and will always press Ignore Thread.' comes off a bit immature, and more suited to other 'recommendation' threads which were actually more like 'warning threads' or safe spaces for the easily offended by a certain genre. Sure you can do that and even ask the dev himself for some clarification about future tags, but here, posting it like that won't serve any other purpose than to make you look like one of those entitled users who plague the forum. That particular choice of words, 'I will not touch it and will always press Ignore Thread', is what makes the difference. Your reasons are well explained in the first sentence of your post, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with them, and that's the kind of reasoning we've come to expect from users in this thread - but this other part feels overreacted and totally out of place, as it sounds slightly and frighteningly close to those 'despicable' threads.

While I see your point... isn't these type of comments also escalating things up? Maybe it has to do something with language (I'm no native speaker) but I didn't perceive entitlement nor immaturity persé in FatGiant's comment.

Overall this thread has had several opinions posted that I could think of crass or rude, but it's never been directed to the Devs nor the players (unlike on the game threads). I also haven't yet seen anyone here rallying up people to get or ignore any game, and his comment is no exception.

Imho it also adds value, as he is stating his reasoning behind it. If I, for example, I'm looking for games/vns but have the same distaste for the situations he rejects (cheating/ntr) I appreciate to have an explained and formed opinion like the one he wrote and several others included in this thread.

It also still lets me decide if I want to give it a try or not. Not long ago he recommended a game here that would not fit my criteria, for example, yet I didn't blindly take his feedback on it. I checked both his comments, the game's thread OP, and comments and came to the conclusion it was not something appealing for me to read.

 

[moskyx]

While I see your point... isn't these type of comments also escalating things up? Maybe it has to do something with language (I'm no native speaker) but I didn't perceive entitlement nor immaturity persé in FatGiant's comment.

Overall this thread has had several opinions posted that I could think of crass or rude, but it's never been directed to the Devs nor the players (unlike on the game threads). I also haven't yet seen anyone here rallying up people to get or ignore any game, and his comment is no exception.

Imho it also adds value, as he is stating his reasoning behind it. If I, for example, I'm looking for games/vns but have the same distaste for the situations he rejects (cheating/ntr) I appreciate to have an explained and formed opinion like the one he wrote and several others included in this thread.

It also still lets me decide if I want to give it a try or not. Not long ago he recommended a game here that would not fit my criteria, for example, yet I didn't blindly take his feedback on it. I checked both his comments, the game's thread OP, and comments and came to the conclusion it was not something appealing for me to read.

As I said, I was only trying to explain why someone could feel that this rhetoric about 'not touching it' could bring some odd vibes. His reasoning beyond that particular expression is OK, but those words have been linked to other unfamous threads with way more toxic attitudes toward devs and fellow players. So, kind of preemptively, some other user warned him against going that way in this thread, just in case. It was just an unfortunate line in the middle of a reasonable discussion, nothing else. And considering his reaction to my comment, I'd say he understood what I was trying to do and didn't perceive my message as an escalation at all. So let's just give it a rest already.

 

[FatGiant]

Thank you both, 365 and moskyx.

It is indeed a poor choice of rhetoric on my part. While I wasn't trying to rally or group, I understand that it can be construed that way, because it has been used in similar forms elsewhere. I feel that I am not in fault, but, I am being judged for dressing my argument in the same clothes that people with bad intentions used.

Since someone that reads me, can't be inside my head and understand my motivations, I will refrain from using that type of language in any argument.

I will still exercise my right to like or dislike content, I will still say that it isn't for me, maybe I will even go further and say why. I will try a different way to express my intentions over that title, like, we will not go watch the sunset together, or any other euphemism that I will feel appropriate at the time.

You see, I am Portuguese. While we are quite capable of Diplomacy, we are, usually, quite direct. Yes, we are sometimes very keen on hyperbole, but, even then it is in a rather straight forward use. This can seem aggressive to (but not exclusively) the anglo-saxonic people. I've noticed that they interpret directness as an attack, even when there is none intended. I am sure that I can't write like them and I am sure that I don't read like them.

Using a language, like this, that is not my first language, even if I feel I am moderately competent, isn't the same as living that culture and living it's mores. I try. But I'll never be even close to decent in it.

Thanks again for trying to understand my intentions, instead of reading me as if I was ordering an attack on that title.

Peace

 

[Jaike]

Overall this thread has had several opinions posted that I could think of crass or rude,

If you speak of the devil, you see her tail.



Anyway, a bit of random no-story talk... know what, I'll spoiler it.

Spoiler

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Out of all the vns/games mentioned in this thread, which ones would you guys say have a smart MC?
I just started a couple of new VNs (well, new meaning I haven't played those before) and realized that so far I can't recall one where the MC isn't at least somewhat dumb.

I get that for the story's sake, MCs need to evolve as well as the other characters, but even for those I played in this list, I find many of the MCs slow in the best cases.

The only game on the list where I know the protagonist isn't smart is Halfway House. He's written to be "not bright", in officer George's the parole officer's words. I imagine most games on the list have an intelligent protagonist. Or at least one that's normally smart. Tora Productions (Tlaero and Mortze) and Talothral (his second game Sorcerer's been recommended to you already) like to use intelligent protagonists.

I hadn't noticed that. We don't know who will be cheating, but even if it's an LI, I'm still interested because for once we might get a proper cheating storyline that isn't tropey netorare nonsense like humiliating the MC.

Since you said that the "friend" dates the jock... maybe that's it.

I don't know... I'm yet to see a story here where the Cheating tag leads to anything of any value. All I've seen so far is pandering to the netorare crowd while narrowly avoiding it.

Also, if a story needs to involve cheating for shock factor, or as a plot point, there's very little chance that it is any good. My opinion, I know.

Peace

If the future tag follows the tag rules, and that's a big if because future tags aren't policed for an obvious reason, it'd like indicate the protagonists cheats on a partner or someone cheats on their partner with the protagonist, but not the protagonist being cheated on.

When it comes to current tags, cheating includes netori, but not netorare. Now a certain style of netori approaches netorare, but a lot of it tries for very different emotions and probably a different audience.

All that's to say I wouldn't assume a particular direction from cheating as a future tag.

Haaaaarumph! Well, well, moskyx, you patronizing poltroon... I _hate_ vore, and I will not be subjected to it. I don't want to be eaten by a giant plant, and have my MC's penis consumed, with his sperm, while he's being digested. That's gross and mean, you meanie. You're just one of those pro penis digestion people. It inflicts all sorts of emotional distress on me: I like my cock, and don't want it consumed. By a carnivorous plant, anyway. I do self-insert, though... into my MCs, not hungry giant venus flytraps. Ugggh.

AND that's why I keep telling those thicko vore devs to stop putting the vore tag on their vore games. First, because it's an offense to humanity, and second, because it will kill their market share. Nobody likes vore games except for the vore people, and there are about as many vore people as those story-first freaks. (Now _those_ people are really weird.)

What those vore dudes should really do is make a game with a MC that has a giant penis and huge, bulging muscles (other than his wondercock). All the LIs love his thunderdong, and fall under its spell. Just by looking. At the dong. That's what dongs do. That and the sex thing. I have _read_ about the sex!

Now _that_ would be an original plot with real curb appeal to the discerning connoisseur of story first games. It has never, ever, been done before. And the people will love it.

So there: I told you. Now you know, you thicko meanie vore guy. And the devs all know too. Because I told them.

Not to ruin your joke, but the sarcastic reasoning you used here is very specific for hard vore. That's the stuff where character are harmed, torn apart, digested and all that. Yeah I don't recommend looking that up.

 

[camube]

Thank you both, 365 and moskyx.

It is indeed a poor choice of rhetoric on my part. While I wasn't trying to rally or group, I understand that it can be construed that way, because it has been used in similar forms elsewhere. I feel that I am not in fault, but, I am being judged for dressing my argument in the same clothes that people with bad intentions used.

Since someone that reads me, can't be inside my head and understand my motivations, I will refrain from using that type of language in any argument.

I will still exercise my right to like or dislike content, I will still say that it isn't for me, maybe I will even go further and say why. I will try a different way to express my intentions over that title, like, we will not go watch the sunset together, or any other euphemism that I will feel appropriate at the time.

You see, I am Portuguese. While we are quite capable of Diplomacy, we are, usually, quite direct. Yes, we are sometimes very keen on hyperbole, but, even then it is in a rather straight forward use. This can seem aggressive to (but not exclusively) the anglo-saxonic people. I've noticed that they interpret directness as an attack, even when there is none intended. I am sure that I can't write like them and I am sure that I don't read like them.

Using a language, like this, that is not my first language, even if I feel I am moderately competent, isn't the same as living that culture and living it's mores. I try. But I'll never be even close to decent in it.

Thanks again for trying to understand my intentions, instead of reading me as if I was ordering an attack on that title.

Peace

for what it's worth, i think what you initially wrote in itself was fine for me.

so what's your top 3 or top 5 story-first games?

 

[kotte]

Just tried out Dancing Colors. ...

Something I noticed was how much they are using "show, don't tell". With plenty of other games, especially in the introduction, everything is spelled out. Sometimes even with a literal narrator.

But not here. They never actually tell us MC's two friends are a couple, it's just obvious. They never tell us what happened to his father, but it's clear that he's gone, and in a way that leaves wife and son missing him.

I wouldn't worry too much about future tags, I just found Episode 1 to be unusually good for F95 and hope for the best.

 

[FatGiant]

I wouldn't worry too much about future tags

I would like to know more about why you think like that. I know that the obvious answer is to play the game, but, with the specter of what is predicted in the Future Tags posted by the author, that is truly not in the cards.

So, if it is not that much of an imposition, would you mind telling us (me, actually) more about why they shouldn't be a worry?

Thanks.

Peace

 

[FatGiant]

for what it's worth, i think what you initially wrote in itself was fine for me.

so what's your top 3 or top 5 story-first games?

I don't truly rate things that way. I understand that other people do, I do try to understand their criteria, but, I am unable to create a list like that. Why? Because when I love a story, it's absolute. So really, there are only 2 stages in my rating, the ones I love and the others.

I played a vast majority of those that are on this post OP, most of them I've loved. The ones that I don't fall in love with, are not bad, you see, they simply weren't able to capture my feelings at that time... or something similar.

I was for a period of 4 years, allowed to spend my afternoons in a Bibliotheque. I read a large part of it. It was from my 6 to my 10 years old. I am hyperlexic (the opposite of dyslexic) and I simply couldn't stop reading. If you had asked me how I would rate those books, I would have to give the same response. I simply don't know how to.

Peace

 

[jufot]

It has plenty of porny sex optional and I prolly haven't seen half of it, but it is unusually consensual too for the main protagonist. And it doesn't seem to get much credit for that last part. Even if you find that a low bar.

Casual Desires feels very empty to me, just like GGGB. There is no plot, no rhyme or reason to any of it. It's just a series of vaguely connected sex scenes. Eva's second game ORS at least has a narrative. But you're right, CD is unusually big on consent, however low a bar that is.

Something I noticed was how much they are using "show, don't tell". With plenty of other games, especially in the introduction, everything is spelled out. Sometimes even with a literal narrator.

But not here. They never actually tell us MC's two friends are a couple, it's just obvious. They never tell us what happened to his father, but it's clear that he's gone, and in a way that leaves wife and son missing him.

Agreed. The dev takes full advantage of "show, don't tell." The writing is brief and very light on exposition (always a good sign) and there are multiple renders that subtly shift something - a facial expression, body movement, camera angle - where the player is expected to read the scene and understand whatever emotion it conveys. It's very skilled work we don't usually see in AVNs.

 

[jufot]

I would like to know more about why you think like that. I know that the obvious answer is to play the game, but, with the specter of what is predicted in the Future Tags posted by the author, that is truly not in the cards.

Personally, I don't care about future tags at all. I play games as long as I continue to enjoy them, and if I stop enjoying them, I'll stop playing. It's no big deal.

I used to like The Lost Chapters. One day, out of nowhere with no notice whatsoever, the dev wrote a scene where a woman gets enslaved, raped, and starts to enjoy it. I lost all interest right there and stopped playing. Yet I don't regret playing the game at all because I did enjoy it till then.

 

[FatGiant]

Personally, I don't care about future tags at all. I play games as long as I continue to enjoy them, and if I stop enjoying them, I'll stop playing. It's no big deal.

I used to like The Lost Chapters. One day, out of nowhere with no notice whatsoever, the dev wrote a scene where a woman gets enslaved, raped, and starts to enjoy it. I lost all interest right there and stopped playing. Yet I don't regret playing the game at all because I did enjoy it till then.

I wish I could be like that.

Peace

 

[Jaike]

Casual Desires feels very empty to me, just like GGGB. There is no plot, no rhyme or reason to any of it. It's just a series of vaguely connected sex scenes. Eva's second game ORS at least has a narrative.

Absolutely, and it seems possible to just have the protagonist perform sex acts left and right like... a porny tooth fairy or Santa Claus I guess? There's enough flavour text to have something like character arcs if you go with 1 or 2 partners per playthrough though. But the emptiness is very common with pure slice-of-life games. Contrast a more plot-driven one like JOHN with the newspaper job.

Eva's second game ORS at least has a narrative.

How do the 2 protagonists work there? Are there big content imbalances between the male and female protagonist?

 

[365 others]

I was for a period of 4 years, allowed to spend my afternoons in a Bibliotheque. I read a large part of it. It was from my 6 to my 10 years old. I am hyperlexic (the opposite of dyslexic) and I simply couldn't stop reading. If you had asked me how I would rate those books, I would have to give the same response. I simply don't know how to.

Now I learned something new today! I wonder if that's what I had (never consulted any doctor). I started reading quite early, and in my pre-teens and teen years, I was reading an average of 1 - 2 books per day. My parents' punishment was not letting me read for a couple of days rather than not letting me go out to play or watch TV (not that it made much difference). I googled the term and could mark most of the boxes for it.

Casual Desires feels very empty to me, just like GGGB. There is no plot, no rhyme or reason to any of it. It's just a series of vaguely connected sex scenes. Eva's second game ORS at least has a narrative. But you're right, CD is unusually big on consent, however low a bar that is.

I didn't like ORS as I felt it was kind of pushy towards NTR/sharing. Maybe it was just my impression, but I got overwhelmed with all the options both MCs had to cheat or end up in a slutty/sugar daddy path, many of them on the line of "either be my plaything or I'll finish yours and your boyfriend's lives". I tried to avoid as much as I could but there were still situations that I disliked and that ended up making me feel tired of it.