Recommending Story-first games

[FatGiant]

To me FIN feels like it meant to be played the light path or in the middle and not the dark path.

Not by the words of it's author.

He clearly stated that the only reason light path exists is for Patreon. It was always intended to be the dark path only.

Peace

 

[Canto Forte]

Now you all feel how disgusted I feel wherever NTR destroys games for the sake of nonsensical gratuitous ugly bastard + rapist scenes. Are we gonna discuss all the rapes and murders that felt totally gratuitous nonsense in Game of Thrones yet everybody loved the extreme violence?

However alot of the player base on the thread does prefer the Dark path a bit more it feels like at times.

Maybe because I'm not defending it?

It was always intended to be the dark path only.

Touche !!!

 

[Dessolos]

Not by the words of it's author.

He clearly stated that the only reason light path exists is for Patreon. It was always intended to be the dark path only.

Peace

I was unware of that which is weird cause when I played it. It feels like the opposite to me like all of his good writing is on the light path but the dark path is terrible like it's just there for no real reason.

 

[FatGiant]

I feel that I can't be objective when talking about that game. I felt betrayed. At a level that nothing else here ever did. I played a couple updates, enjoying the light path that I, like Dessolos, thought was the default one.
Then the Dark and Taboo patches were made Public. I didn't care for it, so I left it alone. I remember thinking it would be just a matter of dialogue, relationships edits, things like that.
But, no, the idea was to make default what was being hidden from Patreon. That eventually turned into the SS version, where the Dark path is the real purpose.

I still can't understand why this wasn't split into 2 threads. One for the rapists and one for decent perverts. Forcing people to read things like "It was fantastic to rape and beat Viola until she was all bloodied and then let her landlord have a go on her too" as if this is what everyone was there for and expected to enjoy.

And several people that I enjoy, being there in the middle of that, as if nothing untoward was going on. What???

Peace

 

[365 others]

Neon Ghost is a good storyteller.
I would put him above DPC when he wrote Acting Lesson. Acting Lesson is great but it's great cuz of the drama. Neon Ghost can tell human stories and say it with brevity. I still remember the rollercoaster of emotion I felt when i first read Nikki telling her story early on. "Oh my god, that is so bad, that suck" was my reaction.
I had similar reaction when I read Risa's story this chapter.

The characters backstory prior to the game is really rooted in reality, in that you can see it happening to people IRL, and you might even be able to see it happening to people around you.

I would say he's great even. Cuz he understands development cycle limitation, pretty brief with the way he write his story events, and doesn't waste time rendering things that aren't necesary (so many AVN devs waste time on unnecessary renders). Like Classy Lemon, he's a great at managing scope.

If mrsilverlust has a talent on writing hot dialogues, Evakiss has a talent on interweaving choices and consequences, and Classy Lemon has a talent on making every chapter feels like a complete TV episode with clear open-middle-end, then neon ghost has a talent on writing backstories of it's characters in a way that is human.

While I think I don't have an opinion as visceral or polarized as FatGiant's, I have to agree with him regarding the tematic in FiN. Jufot's argument has also a lot of weight, as giving the player the autonomy to decide how corrupt/evil or good tends to lead the narrative to incoherencies and overall a weak story development, specially when playing without a mod or guide to let you know what the consequences of such decisions will be.

In my opinion, FiN is also not a story-first oriented game as it loses most of its sense if you remove the porn/lewd content. I know my definition might be different from Jufot's (thread's OP), but I consider a game in that category if I can completely remove the sex content without having a significant impact in the story.

So far, this criteria has led me to find really good games that I have enjoyed because of the story they tell, while having some "spicy" content to add a bit extra of flavour.

For FiN, this is not the case. By removing all its lewd content, most of the story loses meaning or sense, as the vast majority (if not all) the decisions the MC has to make are related directly or indiretly on how he romances/corrupts a given LI.

There is no back story at all. It's about a dude who got lucky with cripto currency and had a ton of money and nothing to do with it. And his actions with that money are basically all oriented to get close to his LIs.

While the LIs may be well written, their stories don't really bring anything to the main arc. If you were, for example, to remove Nikki from the game, even with her sad story, nothing would change for the MC. He does not evolve based on his interactions with her, has no character improvement, has no journey to follow (If I'm not wrong, there was even a patch to alter the game and remove her).

And the same goes for almost if not all of them with maybe the sole exception of his sister (if she is to ever appear in the game).

All in all, I can agree that the developer seems to have a consistent and well organized development process, it's making periodical and so far stable releases, and is engaged with his community, all of which I consider good treats on a dev. But that doesn't remove the fact that FiN is not a game for this thread. And IMHO, neither is Acting lessons.

 

[camube]

i don't know how to do multi-quote, let me find out how to do it cuz replying one post per one post would clog the thread

 

[FatGiant]

i don't know how to do multi-quote, let me find out how to do it cuz replying one post per one post would clog the thread

Just press quote under the post you want.

Then you'll have a new button here in the reply box.

Peace

 

[jamdan]

i don't know how to do multi-quote, let me find out how to do it cuz replying one post per one post would clog the thread

Click the "Quote" button beside the Reply button. Then below the text box, click the Insert quotes button.

 

[Dessolos]

View attachment 3681577

Click the "Quote" button beside the Reply button. Then below the text box, click the Insert quotes button.

holy shit I been doing it the hard way this entire time never knew you can do it that way.

 

[365 others]

View attachment 3681577

Click the "Quote" button beside the Reply button. Then below the text box, click the Insert quotes button.

And then you can choose which quotes you want and in what order:

 

[camube]

All in all, I can agree that the developer seems to have a consistent and well organized development process, it's making periodical and so far stable releases, and is engaged with his community, all of which I consider good treats on a dev. But that doesn't remove the fact that FiN is not a game for this thread. And IMHO, neither is Acting lessons.

I always regard one side of the coin of this thread is that this is Jufot's thread, and we're living in it.
"Story-first games" is just the name, but ultimately Jufot decides what's in and not in the first page.

The other side of that coin is that this is one of the most active story-first discussions thread in f95 and the people in it have different perspectives and like different things.

So whether it's Deluca Family or Friends in Need or other games, I feel like what I wrote has a potential to be helpful to members of this thread, regulars or not, cuz I believe in itself member posts has values and takeaways, and also could narrows down their search for their next game, cuz people's playing time is limited.

I don't know about Acting Lessons but yeah, both Deluca Family and Friends in Need has a place in this thread, if nothing else cuz I like it, and to me, it has good enough story for me to want to post it here, that I think the writer for both are great writers.

It's cool that someone here, Dessolos, shares my opinion and post it right after me, but even of nobody share the view I hold, what I post still has a place in this thread cuz I like it.

A game I could bring into comparison here is Intoxicating Flavor. It really isn't for me. But I know someone here really like it.

Or Supernatural. I like EndlessNight's posts, so anything they posts I pay attention to, but the art of Supernatural is really not for me so I put it far in the backlog.

Anything moskyx recommends I also would pay attention to.

I'm of the opinion that anything anyone here recommends has a place on this thread.

Yeah this thread is a great baseline for anyone's backlog there is some games I don't agree with not being considered story first and what not personally but that's just me. I always look at this thread when i have no idea what to play or just want to add something to my backlog .

This is my point.
Reading people's posts here narrows down on my search and it could save me time or far better than that, makes me discover games I wouldn't have discover otherwise.

Honestly I do agree with camube about friends in Need being story first but I do have a different opinion what story first games means to me than others on this thread as some games that feel story first to me aren't considered as such here. Nicki is probably my favorite story ( i'm waiting for the update to not be the demo build , so I can't comment on Risa yet). Ashe also is really good once you learn about her past and why she talks the way she does. Even the stories that had some set up but need more to flesh them out like Pepper , Britani, Isabella all seem really well written better than most games ive played in terms of the character stories. Now this is all coming from a Light path Dark path is much different i've only played it once or twice but I did ctrl skip past the lewds on the Dark path. I honestly hated the dark path it felt like it was just there just for the sake of being dark to me no real reason I could think of. To me FIN feels like it meant to be played the light path or in the middle and not the dark path. However alot of the player base on the thread does prefer the Dark path a bit more it feels like at times.

This Risa update is good. Nikki was a rollercoaster and I still say Nikki's backstory is still better than Risa's backstory but man, both are a rollercoaster. You should put aside time to play the update at your earliest convenience. I think you'd like it.

I was unware of that which is weird cause when I played it. It feels like the opposite to me like all of his good writing is on the light path but the dark path is terrible like it's just there for no real reason.

Yeah the Nice Guy path is good. I agree with you there.

Playing the light path is actually ridiculed by the author. Do with that what you want.

Peace

Not by the words of it's author.

He clearly stated that the only reason light path exists is for Patreon. It was always intended to be the dark path only.

Peace

Based on this talk and the previous talk about "ignore thread" I get the sense that you are very opinionated but also I really like the fact that you are cordial. The quality of politeness and not being rude to others is something I personally value.

I fully disagree with you that the author intended for the game to be played on "dark path only". That is wrong.
It is your opinion but it is not the fact.

I believe otherwise and I also believe my opinion is closer to the actual fact than yours.

For the context of my beliefs, it's because I've been playing Friends in Need since relatively early on.
There was no Nikki Removal Patch yet back then.
Friends InDeed was not a thing yet.

And the sense I get from reading Neon Ghosts posts, patreon posts updates also included in this is that he's trying to provide a story that makes sense.
He also contemplates on how to write the backstory of the characters in his world in a way that, in my word, "rooted in reality".

Some of the posts of his I read also mention that there would be consequences to MC actions in future updates.
And from asking once on F95, apparently there's already a small consequences in the Criminal Path in that one of the character left.

I personally enjoy reading the Nice Guy storyline.

I don't play all three paths so I can't personally give opinions whether or not Nice Guy, Asshole, and Criminal path all equally have stories that makes sense but I could personally say that Nice Guy storyline makes sense.

His posts that I happen to read about developments also carry nuances.
On top of that, on his patreon he'd recommend books or comics that he likes and tell his subcribers why he like those comics and what theme those comics deal with.

So as a reader I get the sense that he draw inspirations from these and it strengthen his writings on top of his natural talents.

The part that led me to hate anything related to it, is simply this:

I get on the thread, after an update, to be met with several posts proclaiming the joy those ... things... felt by being able to rape and beat one of the girls in the game. Over and over and over. Protected by a Moderator that removed any post that was against that type of content or it's discussion.

I don't really care what most people on most threads posts to be honest with you. I can just skip right over it and I do that a lot of the time.

This thread is an exception to that. I do care what people posts on this thread, which is also why I wrote long posts only on this thread. I guess I care about people's posts on this thread cuz share a common thing, maybe. Cuz we like stories.

So anyway, I don't even read those posts the way you do. I skip over it and only read Neon Ghost ones.

Hence why I said the above that his posts carry nuances and he's trying to write a story that makes sense, in the sense that there could potentially be consequences to past actions.

So I simultaneously leave the thread, like you did, but also still check Neon Ghosts posts every now and then. Not often. Not even every update.

I don't even play Friends in Need every update on time at it's release. Unlike say Projekt Passion where I drop everything to play it. There are characters that I like more than others so when I know the update is about that character, I'd play it. If not, I just stack it.

And when the update is on the character I like more than others, that's when I check Neon Ghosts recent posts.

I left the thread around the time people are complaining about Nikki's existence.
It was funny to me but I conclude these are not posts I enjoy reading and spending my time on so I just skip it.
So I left that thread earlier than you.

That is on top of generally speaking, I don't check f95zone thread that much to begin with. This thread being an exception.

I will do my best to not think bad things of anyone that plays it. It's extremely tempting to do so. But, I also know that those people that play a game like this, relish the fact that they are branded has rapists, racists, xenophobes, homophobes and the like, so, pleasing them is NOT in my plans.

I left that thread even earlier than you cuz of the Nikki thing. So I don't at all disagree with you when you said the posts on that thread talks about morally repugnant stuffs. I take that as a fact

So if you think bad about people that play Friends in Need, or about me in this context, it's okay.

Through the course of our stay in f95zone, your opinion of me (and of other people here) that play Friends in Need or whatever other games would change anyway. Views of others are not static.

I feel that I can't be objective when talking about that game. I felt betrayed. At a level that nothing else here ever did. I played a couple updates, enjoying the light path that I, like Dessolos, thought was the default one.
Then the Dark and Taboo patches were made Public. I didn't care for it, so I left it alone. I remember thinking it would be just a matter of dialogue, relationships edits, things like that.
But, no, the idea was to make default what was being hidden from Patreon. That eventually turned into the SS version, where the Dark path is the real purpose.

I still can't understand why this wasn't split into 2 threads. One for the rapists and one for decent perverts. Forcing people to read things like "It was fantastic to rape and beat Viola until she was all bloodied and then let her landlord have a go on her too" as if this is what everyone was there for and expected to enjoy.

And several people that I enjoy, being there in the middle of that, as if nothing untoward was going on. What???

Peace

I would like to give this unsolicited advice to you, as a fellow story-first lovers and fellow regulars of this thread.

Given how strongly opinionated you are, I think you should read less of posts that you consider shitty.
That's what I do.

While I do track Neon Ghosts posts cuz he's the author, I don't read most posts on most thread.
This is not just about Friends in Need thread, I don't read posts on, for example, Intertwined either. I regard both threads posts as "not for me".

Even though I play Friends in Need earlier than you, still play it until now, so I play it longer than you, I am pretty confident my time spent on Friends in Need f95 thread is far less than you.

I don't even get to read the "celebration of criminal behaviors" on that thread that you read a lot of.
Because I left Friends in Need thread after I read many posts that shit on Nikki. It was funny to read but I conclude it's not for me.
And this happen a long time ago, long before Friends in Need was as popular as today.

**For a very long time, I thought Nikki Removal Patch was an actual patch where the dev yield to the demands of it's players/customers.** Apparently it's a troll patch. That's how I checked out I am from Friends in Need thread.

If I have time to spare, I would rather read this Jufot's story-first games thread (thank you for making it man) or just play games.

If Neon Ghosts leave f95 entirely, like Nyx does, I would check Friends in Need thread extremely rarely. The same way I check Intertwined thread extremely rarely.

The author is the author.
The players are the players.

I'm interested on reading what the authors posts. Patreon posts moreso.
I'm not really interested on reading what most players posts on f95, so i don't read those

And to think I had it on my signature as a recommended game.

Through the course of this conversation, I actually became quite interested on games you would recommend in the future.
Please share with the rest of us when you find a game worth typing and spending time here.

People with strong opinions may have strong love on some things. And a product that could make someone love it, on the other hand could make someone else hate it.
I like that.

Strong opinions are good. If someone make something that is loved by some and hated by some others, it could be a good product to try. It's better than if the game elicit indifference and the quality just average. Now that, is a waste of time.

Man I hope i do this multi-quote thing correctly

 

[camube]

His complexity is reduced by the power-fantasy that his wealth brings with it. It makes his progression very linear and the relationships are top-down because he is basically untouchable.

And the MC in Friends in Need is clearly in control, even when he struggles there is never existential desperation as Tyrion experienced it.

I missed quoting you but your two posts are a part of what I'm looking forward to read on the Second Half of Friends in Need. So I guess starting from 2 years or now or so.

My read of Neon Ghosts posts is that there will be consequences to being an asshole. That means there would be even more consequences of being a criminal. I'm looking forward to seeing the Asshole path consequences.

But since it's still in the future, that's for later. I don't even have an Asshole-specific save path currently at the moment. And I don't want to spend time replaying the game now to go through Asshole path from the beginning. I'd be more inclined to do that route when the Consequences Second Half has already been here.

Cuz who knows how long it takes to develop. Bare Witness took more than a year to flesh out it's endings.

He clearly stated that the only reason light path exists is for Patreon. It was always intended to be the dark path only.

Peace

There's a context that is missed there. At this point, (or more accurately, at some time in the past by the last time I checked), there's three path of Friends in Need in 2 versions.

Friends InDeed is created for Patreon, that's true. But Nice Guy path is not at all created for Patreon. It existed from the beginning.

The default game that is called Friends in Need always has Nice guy path and Asshole path.
That is the game that exist from the beginning and what became "the Subscribestar version".

Taboo Patch adds another option to this Default game, the Criminal path. The one you hate and the morally repugnant one is this optional version.
The patch can only be installed on Subscribestar Version not on patreon version.

Friends InDeed was created later on long after the game initially released. It's created to comply with Patreon and it also has a different name.
One thing of note I've wrote above is that Taboo Patch doesn't work for Friends InDeed.

And I think there is a difference in choices between the default Friends In Need and Friends InDeed even without putting in the taboo patch. As in I'm not really sure all the Asshole choices in Default all existed in Friends InDeed.

Though I'm not gonna spend time to play InDeed and In Need side by side to test that view.

So anyway that InDeed version is the game that is created for Patreon like you said. The Nice Guy path version and my baseless guess that maybe it doesn't contain all the Asshole path choices.

Criminal Route is the optional version. Everyone can play without the patch and if you don't go out of your way to install it and only download off of f95, no Criminal path is the default version.

 

[Dessolos]

This Risa update is good. Nikki was a rollercoaster and I still say Nikki's backstory is still better than Risa's backstory but man, both are a rollercoaster. You should put aside time to play the update at your earliest convenience. I think you'd like it.

Can't wait to play it im just waiting for the full update to play it then it's at the top of my list since it's only a demo build of the update right now

 

[FatGiant]

I missed quoting you but your two posts are a part of what I'm looking forward to read on the Second Half of Friends in Need. So I guess starting from 2 years or now or so.

My read of Neon Ghosts posts is that there will be consequences to being an asshole. That means there would be even more consequences of being a criminal. I'm looking forward to seeing the Asshole path consequences.

But since it's still in the future, that's for later. I don't even have an Asshole-specific save path currently at the moment. And I don't want to spend time replaying the game now to go through Asshole path from the beginning. I'd be more inclined to do that route when the Consequences Second Half has already been here.

Cuz who knows how long it takes to develop. Bare Witness took more than a year to flesh out it's endings.




There's a context that is missed there. At this point, (or more accurately, at some time in the past by the last time I checked), there's three path of Friends in Need in 2 versions.

Friends InDeed is created for Patreon, that's true. But Nice Guy path is not at all created for Patreon. It existed from the beginning.

The default game that is called Friends in Need always has Nice guy path and Asshole path.
That is the game that exist from the beginning and what became "the Subscribestar version".

Taboo Patch adds another option to this Default game, the Criminal path. The one you hate and the morally repugnant one is this optional version.
The patch can only be installed on Subscribestar Version not on patreon version.

Friends InDeed was created later on long after the game initially released. It's created to comply with Patreon and it also has a different name.
One thing of note I've wrote above is that Taboo Patch doesn't work for Friends InDeed.

And I think there is a difference in choices between the default Friends In Need and Friends InDeed even without putting in the taboo patch. As in I'm not really sure all the Asshole choices in Default all existed in Friends InDeed.

Though I'm not gonna spend time to play InDeed and In Need side by side to test that view.

So anyway that InDeed version is the game that is created for Patreon like you said. The Nice Guy path version and my baseless guess that maybe it doesn't contain all the Asshole path choices.

Criminal Route is the optional version. Everyone can play without the patch and if you don't go out of your way to install it and only download off of f95, no Criminal path is the default version.

All that is fine and would be fine, IF, it was NOT mixed and supported and encouraged on the same thread.

I can not and will not even bother to go there to try and understand these minutiae, the thread is abhorrent. Or was, I have no idea how it is right now. I suspect only, that by having a Moderator that is a staunch protector of the Criminal path and Asshole path, it must be heaven to them.

So, a game that can be played to extremes, attracts people that are on the extreme hardcore. Not a place I would recommend to anyone. Does this color the game itself? To me, Yes it does.

From what I remember of the gameplay, you were always, at every decision, exposed to the asshole options. It's very tiring. Exhausting really. I found the experience innervating.

I often compared this to one of those NTR (optional) games that you have to keep constant vigilance on your LI's so you don't encourage them to go cock hunting.

I can't relax and enjoy a story, when I am at every step on the verge of going into the dark.

I'm sorry for disagreeing as vehemently as I do, but FiN may have nice stories inside, but, it is absolutely NOT, story first or even story oriented, in my opinion.

Peace

 

[Dessolos]

All that is fine and would be fine, IF, it was NOT mixed and supported and encouraged on the same thread.

I can not and will not even bother to go there to try and understand these minutiae, the thread is abhorrent. Or was, I have no idea how it is right now. I suspect only, that by having a Moderator that is a staunch protector of the Criminal path and Asshole path, it must be heaven to them.

I feel this so much there was a time anytime I mentioned the name Risa it would be flooded with dark comments because of something she did. I hated seeing comments about that not just cause it's dark but it was for petty reasons ontop of her being a character I liked so it sucked to see. It's a bit better lately but im sure it will be back to being full of dark comments again seems to come and go in waves. At the same time I find it hard not to visit that thread because of a few people I do enjoy on that thread otherwise yeah id skip even looking at it.

I'm sorry for disagreeing as vehemently as I do, but FiN may have nice stories inside, but, it is absolutely NOT, story first or even story oriented, in my opinion.

This is what i like when I do visit this thread from time to time, while I may disagree with this since story first is very subjective from player to player , like for me FIN is story first because of the character stories / backgrounds while it isn't to you. But because of these discussions I can find games I normally would never of found or heard of.

 

[FatGiant]

I feel this so much there was a time anytime I mentioned the name Risa it would be flooded with dark comments because of something she did. I hated seeing comments about that not just cause it's dark but it was for petty reasons ontop of her being a character I liked so it sucked to see. It's a bit better lately but im sure it will be back to being full of dark comments again seems to come and go in waves. At the same time I find it hard not to visit that thread because of a few people I do enjoy on that thread otherwise yeah id skip even looking at it.



This is what i like when I do visit this thread from time to time, while I may disagree with this since story first is very subjective from player to player , like for me FIN is story first because of the character stories / backgrounds while it isn't to you. But because of these discussions I can find games I normally would never of found or heard of.

Please don't feel offended or targeted, it is but an attempt to move from repeating again all that I said already.

While reading this thread I can't help to fixate on the 2 games in your signature. I've had very harsh feelings for both of them, LOL.

1- Intertwined - At some point NYX decided to leave an update on a cliffhanger that suggested that one of the LI's would be assaulted and possibly killed. I simply couldn't play the game for quite a long time after. Why? Besides the fact that I consider cliffhangers the worst possible way to leave a story (for whatever period of time), this specific LI is the one for me. The rest of the game could simply disappear as long as she remained. Not only that, but making that type of insinuation, and leaving it to fester for as long as an update would take (with that developer, you never know how long it is, except that it's a long time) created in me a complete distrust in their work. I never hated the story, but, for a long time I simply couldn't look at it, without thinking, this is gonna suck and I don't want to read it. I finally relented and even replayed it from the start, but, there's a permanent sensation that this dev is playing with you, the trust that it will not suck, is simply gone, and I'm always waiting for the shoe... nay... the Piano to drop. I simply don't feel good playing it, while at the same time, I love it's story.

2- Hillside - I rage quit that game. Deleted the files. For the first time went in search of the saves in the App folder and nuked them. Why? Well, this is not an easy one. After sometime playing games from here, I started fine tuning the type of games and stories that I enjoy more than others. One of those realizations is that I don't like Cheating. The other is that I REALLY don't like games of the type "Choose ONE". I was fully aware that that game isn't an Harem, and I would have to choose only one. There I was clicking along, loving all the potential LI's. Getting to know them and so on. Then in comes the sister of the model. Flirt left and right, and I was expecting this is gonna go bad, because I will have to choose but maybe I'll go and try a multi-path here because I'm loving this story. So, I kept going, waiting for the choose now... It comes when they are on the bed ready to boing-boing... No, no, no, no... there were many chances before that made sense... at that point, that's just NO. I haven't been able to make myself install this again. Not sure if I ever will.

In both those games the Dev committed (IMO) a cardinal sin, he broke the readers trust. One by attempting to imply the death of a love interest, the other by taking TOO LONG to force a choice. I am aware of the infatuation of most of the world with the work of G.R.R. Martin, and his absolutely murderous writing. I have all his books looking at me right now, that I've read, but truly didn't enjoy as much as the rest of the world seems to do. The TV show, I refused to watch. The reason why I can't like his work is the same, I can't trust him. I can't involve myself in a story, in a character, and then suddenly see it all go to nothing.

Nyx tried to do it. Hillside Dev, did it.

Furthermore, both of these forced me to adopt a very hard view of games with a choose ONE stance. Now, I will NOT do more than one playthrough, choose only one LI, and simply forget about those games as fast as possible.

This doesn't mean that I will not enjoy the games, but I will not subject myself to the agony of choice, over and over and over again. After all, none of those LI's really matter. All of them will have a story, will like you, will do hot things with you... then the game is over. Over and Done. Satisfaction guaranteed (or not). By the fact that they are a choice, they become interchangeable, therefore irrelevant in terms of choice. They may be awesome, they may just be OK, I'll never know, they are just a plot point and not the story.

I feel conflicted. I know that this stance of mine, protects me from the repeating agony of choice, but, the games all feel mangled. Not the Devs fault, but the game style.

I know that some Devs are here, so, I'll try and share my feelings, hopefully without being too harsh. The problem I find with the choose ONE type is that it turns the all game/story into the choice. You are not there to enjoy and follow a story, but to try and find out which one will go with your character to bed. At this point, I have to wonder, why even have a choice of LIs? Why not make a longer game, with a more involving story, and only ONE LI. Two max. Why go to the unbelievable boring trouble of making multiple paths that are completely meaningless, because the choice itself makes them pointless?

I am aware that I am oversimplifying this, but, the fact is, none of the choices really matter, unless, the choice itself is the story. And that, is a plot that makes me NOT play again.

How much bigger and better would a single LI game be, if the Dev time could be used to take the story and the plot out of the choice pit? There are many of those games out, some good, some awesome. Why? Because they aren't marooned in a pit of repeating the same scenes with a different model, then another, then another, then another... ad vomit.

I don't feel bad to play that type of games that way, after all, the Devs made all the LIs, and the type is choose ONE. So, that's what I do. I just don't go back and do it all again with another, and another, and another... Not only because it's boring, but because I don't want to be choosing over and over.

/Rant

:: Gets down from the Soap Box ::

Peace

 

[camube]

I can not and will not even bother to go there to try and understand these minutiae, the thread is abhorrent

you don't have to, that's why we're all here.
You can copy my notes on the games i play so you can save time, and i will copy your notes on the games you play so i can also save time
I do that a lot. Read other people's notes to decide which game to play.

 

[moskyx]

I know that some Devs are here, so, I'll try and share my feelings, hopefully without being too harsh. The problem I find with the choose ONE type is that it turns the all game/story into the choice. You are not there to enjoy and follow a story, but to try and find out which one will go with your character to bed. At this point, I have to wonder, why even have a choice of LIs? Why not make a longer game, with a more involving story, and only ONE LI. Two max. Why go to the unbelievable boring trouble of making multiple paths that are completely meaningless, because the choice itself makes them pointless?

I am aware that I am oversimplifying this, but, the fact is, none of the choices really matter, unless, the choice itself is the story. And that, is a plot that makes me NOT play again.

How much bigger and better would a single LI game be, if the Dev time could be used to take the story and the plot out of the choice pit? There are many of those games out, some good, some awesome. Why? Because they aren't marooned in a pit of repeating the same scenes with a different model, then another, then another, then another... ad vomit.

You raise some interesting points. Focusing on this part, I'd say that many players are actually demanding that option you don't like. They just want to be able to pick their favourite LI from a whole squad of awesome characters, no matter the implications (that can go from narrative inconsistency to incoherent characterization). After all, this genre is mostly used as an escapism method and people are willing to sacrifice their standards to get some relief. And many devs think that way too, or find that approach more attractive, business-wise -after all, if a players dislike your only LI, he'll quite the game altogether, while he might stay if there are more LI's, so these 'single LI' devs have only one chance and must get their characters right from the very beginning if they want to be succesful, while the other devs have some room to handle those negative first impressions just by throwing in another piece of meat.

We could take Tlaero games in the 'Elsaverse' as a prime example of how to create a fully-fledged narrative with several LI's but presented as a bunch of independent 'single LI' stories, which is something that could attract players like FatGiant. That requires some good planning, though, and sadly the outcome is not exactly mainstream. On the other hand, I'll mention games like 'CIty of Broken Dreamers' by Philly or even 'Become a Rock Star' by MrJet, that offer a wide cast of LI's serving one overarching story that is not deeply affected by how the player chooses to play the game (either being loyal to a LI or bedding all of them at the same time, or even doing a celibate route).

And I'm explicitly mentioning these 2 games because they are not harem games but handle 'THE CHOICE' very differently. In COBD there's no actual consequences for the 'manwhore' route and all the LI's you can choose to have sex with are more or less aware of the others and, besides some minor exceptions (like Gloria not willing to keep having sex with the MC if he has expressed some feelings for Ellen or Katie), are kind of OK with the MC 'playing the field' until he finally picks one of them. Meanwhile, the MC internal monologue in BaRS is constantly making the player aware that he is cheating and this won't end well -and it doesn't: at a certain point, the girls learn about this and the MC is left alone, with no option to 'fix it' with anyone. I find this approach very interesting.

Leaving aside other important technical aspects, I don't need to mention which dev is getting more money from players. And I can't help but wonder how important is for these players, when they choose to actually support a game, to have a wide cast handled like Philly did. So I can't blame other devs for trying to replicate that. Why would you sacrifice the option to get more supporters by offering them more LI's to pick from, if those LI's can be totally interchangeable in your story? Your only limit is time.

But it's an old debate, probably fueled by the blurred lines between 'dating sims' and 'visual novels' (as in, 'story-focused AVN').

 

[Hildegardt]

I fully disagree with you that the author intended for the game to be played on "dark path only". That is wrong.
It is your opinion but it is not the fact.

I believe otherwise and I also believe my opinion is closer to the actual fact than yours.

For the context of my beliefs, it's because I've been playing Friends in Need since relatively early on.
There was no Nikki Removal Patch yet back then.
Friends InDeed was not a thing yet.

And the sense I get from reading Neon Ghosts posts, patreon posts updates also included in this is that he's trying to provide a story that makes sense.
He also contemplates on how to write the backstory of the characters in his world in a way that, in my word, "rooted in reality"

I came across Friends in Need when it first released and back then I thought it was an interesting story. It only had three characters, the PC and his bff (with a lot of chemistry between them) Nikki and her deadbeat boyfriend, which was an interesting constellation that kicked off the premise quite well: The PC suddenly gets rich and his bff's up to this point slightly abusive relationship turns even darker, when her boyfriend gets envious.
But this soured pretty quickly when the first major choice was to either blow Nikki off, help her, coerce her or rape her. These choices are not coherent. The premise of the game wasn't actually interesting, it was only enabling a violent power fantasy fetish.
I tried Friends in Need again a few updates later. I didn't know about different versions, so I don't know which version I got, but I doubt it'd change my opinion. There were now a lot of different characters, but all of them with the same abusive power dynamics in favour of the PC, diluting the interesting initial premise even more. One of them was a loli for which the game prompted me to input how old I would like her to be. That's when I stopped playing.

The thing about story-first AVNs is that they're still AVNs. No matter how prominent the story is, it can't be divorced from the context of the fetish content. Even the games that take story-first literally and tack on the porn post hoc can't escape this. If a game has a strong main fetish, then the whole story will have this tinge.
So for FiN this means that even the Nice Guy™ path is just a variation of the same fetish (it's probably even heavier incel vibes than playing as an outright rapist tbh). This isn't necessarily a problem and I actually wish more devs would stop seeing story and kinky as opposites. But for one, some fetishes are better suited for compelling stories than others. And secondly, as FiN shows, the fetish can't stand on its own, there still has to be a story there.
"Get money, get bitches" is not a story. Even if every next "bitch" has even more challanging challanges for us to wallow in than the one before. That's not layered, that's cheap gratification.

But it's an old debate, probably fueled by the blurred lines between 'dating sims' and 'visual novels' (as in, 'story-focused AVN').

God damn, if there's anything I hate about the current AVN landscape, it's that every single game has to have dating sim mechanics or else a bunch of people complain about being "forced" into stuff. I don't understand how so many people can think that this is clever criticism. Nobody ever forced anyone to pirate a game.

 

[camube]

I'd say that many players are actually demanding that option you don't like. They just want to be able to pick their favourite LI from a whole squad of awesome characters, no matter the implications (that can go from narrative inconsistency to incoherent characterization)

Generally speaking, harem is more boring to me than games that have actual consequences, cuz for me, story is important so if it's CYOA, consequences of CYOA is important.
Harem by definition means there's less consequences in the story with regard to interpersonal relationship

So if the main story is boring it will be boring for me. I would drop Eternum if it's just a harem game. The world and the action sequences is why i keep playing. The harem part bored the crap out of me. But that's more because i don't think caribdis is that a good of a character writer compared to world building, and setting action scenes.

Meanwhile, the MC internal monologue in BaRS is constantly making the player aware that he is cheating and this won't end well -and it doesn't: at a certain point, the girls learn about this and the MC is left alone, with no option to 'fix it' with anyone. I find this approach very interesting.

This is why I like games like the ones created by noping. In the game it surprises me when this character called Clara suddenly try to kiss MC out of the blue. I control the MC to say "no", cuz he has a set backstory that he was depressed due to some things.

So turned out, rejecting Clara is one of the requirement to get to this other character route called Mia in Ch. 3. Which makes sense in-world cuz of what Clara, Mia, and MC relationship was prior to the game opening.

I really like that. I like things like that where there's a consistency in the world between the characters regardless of our choices, and when we make choices, I like when there there's consequences we can see.

On that note, I do wonder, other than the top of the top like BaDIK, which path has higher likelihood to yield 300 to 500 patrons for creators?

Sex-first games, or Story-first games?
and harem or not?

Cuz man, sex-first games that has no story doesn't make me open my wallet.
Harem that has nothing to say is boring for me (and usually it has nothing to say).

But I also see story-first games has very few patrons.
So i don't know and i myself wonder.