Recommending Story-first games

[Éama]

You can take it from there - MC is locked in this heart bleeding monologie between his brain telling him to be celibate and his heart telling him that maybe, maybe this girl or the next girl will actually see him not as a handle or a door knob to use to get out of trouble, but a human being.

I've never seen this level of complexity on the MCs part. He is rich and influential and that gives him practically free reign throughout the plot. There is rarely any focus on the emptiness he is feeling or what it does to him. If he was considered a door knob, he wouldn't have the option to abuse every other scene. In fact, you would see women manipulate him and take advantage of him. Many golddiggers are smart women who know which buttons to push.

And I think that's what jufot meant and I agree that it takes away some of the quality of the writing. His complexity is reduced by the power-fantasy that his wealth brings with it. It makes his progression very linear and the relationships are top-down because he is basically untouchable.

 

[Canto Forte]

That is the choice and here lies the very close proximity to Tyrion:
- was Tyrion justified to revenge on his only family that had in the past given him anything - a love life from the fiancee and the standing from his father - just becaue they both shagged and colluded to bring him to execution? Yes, he was.
-that path he took to actually revenge on them both was chosen in the series for Tyrion, but here, MC can be a door knob the asshole girls will use and abuse - while playing the neutered Friends inDeed version with no dark path options, MC will only belly up the money if he wants anything from anyone.

His complexity is reduced by the power-fantasy that his wealth brings with it. It makes his progression very linear and the relationships are top-down because he is basically untouchable.

The strength of the game is that there is a version where MC can be Tyron and do the dark revenge comepuppance choices as canon, ensuring MC gets things not because of his money, but through other means.

 

[FatGiant]

Friends in need is a game like Game of Thrones if the choices to kill your father and your fiancee, like Tyrion, were of a different nature ... or make peace and take the life hits.
Peter jokingly said his character is a coward with no fighting scenes of skills and that his action scenes are pathetic - like strangling his finacee in bed and killing his father on the loo - yet for some reason fans say they loved the disgusting character he got to play
The story is a clusterfuck of bad life events that we see for MC.

The optional bad choices are there if you wanna make MC hate life back, the way his life hates him and sends him spiralling downwards in exasperation a lot of the times.

Short story of the plot and the meandering heartache in there:

MC is middle aged, skinny, pining for his younger collegue - she never sees MC, like countless anime heartthrobbs that Lis overlook for plot reasons. There is a new hire, a young jerk assswipe whom the girl falls for - comical century old trope of the jerks who land the girls just because.

You can take it from there - MC is locked in this heart bleeding monologie between his brain telling him to be celibate and his heart telling him that maybe, maybe this girl or the next girl will actually see him not as a handle or a door knob to use to get out of trouble, but a human being.




You can be decent and share the heartache with MC or become Tyrion the slayer of his fiance and of his father. The choice is yours.

The part that led me to hate anything related to it, is simply this:

I get on the thread, after an update, to be met with several posts proclaiming the joy those ... things... felt by being able to rape and beat one of the girls in the game. Over and over and over. Protected by a Moderator that removed any post that was against that type of content or it's discussion.

I am not easily offended, but, sincerely, that revolted me high and above anything good the game could possibly have.

It's not the path I took in game, but the simple fact that I am playing a game that has a dev that relishes that type of content (even more than anything else, by his own admission) it is simply too much for me. The fact that there are Moderators here that protect that type of discussion as if it is a sanctioned act, is even worse.

Reading pages and pages of praising the ability of the author in allowing players to brutalize the girls, to allow a black girl to be branded as slave mostly because she's black, relishing in filth like this in the same thread as other people tried to discuss the lighter paths of the game, while being "shamed" for not following the rape paths, telling people to put the offenders on ignore instead of cleaning the thread. That's what made me classify that game as a HATE game. It is not meant to be played in the light mode, that hasn't even been updated this time. It is meant to be played has the most disgusting abusive and rapist way possible.

I will do my best to not think bad things of anyone that plays it. It's extremely tempting to do so. But, I also know that those people that play a game like this, relish the fact that they are branded has rapists, racists, xenophobes, homophobes and the like, so, pleasing them is NOT in my plans.

FiN, is NOT a story based game. It is a game that is meant to be played with HATE. Playing the light path is actually ridiculed by the author. Do with that what you want.

Peace

 

[Éama]

The strength of the game is that there is a version where MC can be Tyron and do the dark revenge comepuppance choices as canon, ensuring MC gets things not because of his money, but through other means.

That's still the same power fantasy. Just a more archaic version of it. I don't think you do Tyrion justice when you put him in the same basket. His trait was that he was actually never powerful, not even when a position of power was given to him. He shot his father sitting in the loo, because facing him head on was out of the question. When he tried to fight in battle he got mutilated. His impotence was the basis for his complex character.

A power fantasy on the other hand thrives on control. And the MC in Friends in Need is clearly in control, even when he struggles there is never existential desperation as Tyrion experienced it.

 

[Dessolos]

Honestly I do agree with camube about friends in Need being story first but I do have a different opinion what story first games means to me than others on this thread as some games that feel story first to me aren't considered as such here. Nicki is probably my favorite story ( i'm waiting for the update to not be the demo build , so I can't comment on Risa yet). Ashe also is really good once you learn about her past and why she talks the way she does. Even the stories that had some set up but need more to flesh them out like Pepper , Britani, Isabella all seem really well written better than most games ive played in terms of the character stories. Now this is all coming from a Light path Dark path is much different i've only played it once or twice but I did ctrl skip past the lewds on the Dark path. I honestly hated the dark path it felt like it was just there just for the sake of being dark to me no real reason I could think of. To me FIN feels like it meant to be played the light path or in the middle and not the dark path. However alot of the player base on the thread does prefer the Dark path a bit more it feels like at times.

 

[FatGiant]

That's still the same power fantasy. Just a more archaic version of it. I don't think you do Tyrion justice when you put him in the same basket. His trait was that he was actually never powerful, not even when a position of power was given to him. He shot his father sitting in the loo, because facing him head on was out of the question. When he tried to fight in battle he got mutilated. His impotence was the basis for his complex character.

A power fantasy on the other hand thrives on control. And the MC in Friends in Need is clearly in control, even when he struggles there is never existential desperation as Tyrion experienced it.

I really can't conciliate your defense of FiN, with your signature. One of them doesn't fit.

Peace

 

[Éama]

I really can't conciliate your defense of FiN, with your signature. One of them doesn't fit.

Peace

Maybe because I'm not defending it?

 

[FatGiant]

To me FIN feels like it meant to be played the light path or in the middle and not the dark path.

Not by the words of it's author.

He clearly stated that the only reason light path exists is for Patreon. It was always intended to be the dark path only.

Peace

 

[Canto Forte]

Now you all feel how disgusted I feel wherever NTR destroys games for the sake of nonsensical gratuitous ugly bastard + rapist scenes. Are we gonna discuss all the rapes and murders that felt totally gratuitous nonsense in Game of Thrones yet everybody loved the extreme violence?

However alot of the player base on the thread does prefer the Dark path a bit more it feels like at times.

Maybe because I'm not defending it?

It was always intended to be the dark path only.

Touche !!!

 

[Dessolos]

Not by the words of it's author.

He clearly stated that the only reason light path exists is for Patreon. It was always intended to be the dark path only.

Peace

I was unware of that which is weird cause when I played it. It feels like the opposite to me like all of his good writing is on the light path but the dark path is terrible like it's just there for no real reason.

 

[FatGiant]

I feel that I can't be objective when talking about that game. I felt betrayed. At a level that nothing else here ever did. I played a couple updates, enjoying the light path that I, like Dessolos, thought was the default one.
Then the Dark and Taboo patches were made Public. I didn't care for it, so I left it alone. I remember thinking it would be just a matter of dialogue, relationships edits, things like that.
But, no, the idea was to make default what was being hidden from Patreon. That eventually turned into the SS version, where the Dark path is the real purpose.

I still can't understand why this wasn't split into 2 threads. One for the rapists and one for decent perverts. Forcing people to read things like "It was fantastic to rape and beat Viola until she was all bloodied and then let her landlord have a go on her too" as if this is what everyone was there for and expected to enjoy.

And several people that I enjoy, being there in the middle of that, as if nothing untoward was going on. What???

Peace

 

[365 others]

Neon Ghost is a good storyteller.
I would put him above DPC when he wrote Acting Lesson. Acting Lesson is great but it's great cuz of the drama. Neon Ghost can tell human stories and say it with brevity. I still remember the rollercoaster of emotion I felt when i first read Nikki telling her story early on. "Oh my god, that is so bad, that suck" was my reaction.
I had similar reaction when I read Risa's story this chapter.

The characters backstory prior to the game is really rooted in reality, in that you can see it happening to people IRL, and you might even be able to see it happening to people around you.

I would say he's great even. Cuz he understands development cycle limitation, pretty brief with the way he write his story events, and doesn't waste time rendering things that aren't necesary (so many AVN devs waste time on unnecessary renders). Like Classy Lemon, he's a great at managing scope.

If mrsilverlust has a talent on writing hot dialogues, Evakiss has a talent on interweaving choices and consequences, and Classy Lemon has a talent on making every chapter feels like a complete TV episode with clear open-middle-end, then neon ghost has a talent on writing backstories of it's characters in a way that is human.

While I think I don't have an opinion as visceral or polarized as FatGiant's, I have to agree with him regarding the tematic in FiN. Jufot's argument has also a lot of weight, as giving the player the autonomy to decide how corrupt/evil or good tends to lead the narrative to incoherencies and overall a weak story development, specially when playing without a mod or guide to let you know what the consequences of such decisions will be.

In my opinion, FiN is also not a story-first oriented game as it loses most of its sense if you remove the porn/lewd content. I know my definition might be different from Jufot's (thread's OP), but I consider a game in that category if I can completely remove the sex content without having a significant impact in the story.

So far, this criteria has led me to find really good games that I have enjoyed because of the story they tell, while having some "spicy" content to add a bit extra of flavour.

For FiN, this is not the case. By removing all its lewd content, most of the story loses meaning or sense, as the vast majority (if not all) the decisions the MC has to make are related directly or indiretly on how he romances/corrupts a given LI.

There is no back story at all. It's about a dude who got lucky with cripto currency and had a ton of money and nothing to do with it. And his actions with that money are basically all oriented to get close to his LIs.

While the LIs may be well written, their stories don't really bring anything to the main arc. If you were, for example, to remove Nikki from the game, even with her sad story, nothing would change for the MC. He does not evolve based on his interactions with her, has no character improvement, has no journey to follow (If I'm not wrong, there was even a patch to alter the game and remove her).

And the same goes for almost if not all of them with maybe the sole exception of his sister (if she is to ever appear in the game).

All in all, I can agree that the developer seems to have a consistent and well organized development process, it's making periodical and so far stable releases, and is engaged with his community, all of which I consider good treats on a dev. But that doesn't remove the fact that FiN is not a game for this thread. And IMHO, neither is Acting lessons.

 

[camube]

i don't know how to do multi-quote, let me find out how to do it cuz replying one post per one post would clog the thread

 

[FatGiant]

i don't know how to do multi-quote, let me find out how to do it cuz replying one post per one post would clog the thread

Just press quote under the post you want.

Then you'll have a new button here in the reply box.

Peace

 

[jamdan]

i don't know how to do multi-quote, let me find out how to do it cuz replying one post per one post would clog the thread

Click the "Quote" button beside the Reply button. Then below the text box, click the Insert quotes button.

 

[Dessolos]

View attachment 3681577

Click the "Quote" button beside the Reply button. Then below the text box, click the Insert quotes button.

holy shit I been doing it the hard way this entire time never knew you can do it that way.

 

[365 others]

View attachment 3681577

Click the "Quote" button beside the Reply button. Then below the text box, click the Insert quotes button.

And then you can choose which quotes you want and in what order:

 

[camube]

All in all, I can agree that the developer seems to have a consistent and well organized development process, it's making periodical and so far stable releases, and is engaged with his community, all of which I consider good treats on a dev. But that doesn't remove the fact that FiN is not a game for this thread. And IMHO, neither is Acting lessons.

I always regard one side of the coin of this thread is that this is Jufot's thread, and we're living in it.
"Story-first games" is just the name, but ultimately Jufot decides what's in and not in the first page.

The other side of that coin is that this is one of the most active story-first discussions thread in f95 and the people in it have different perspectives and like different things.

So whether it's Deluca Family or Friends in Need or other games, I feel like what I wrote has a potential to be helpful to members of this thread, regulars or not, cuz I believe in itself member posts has values and takeaways, and also could narrows down their search for their next game, cuz people's playing time is limited.

I don't know about Acting Lessons but yeah, both Deluca Family and Friends in Need has a place in this thread, if nothing else cuz I like it, and to me, it has good enough story for me to want to post it here, that I think the writer for both are great writers.

It's cool that someone here, Dessolos, shares my opinion and post it right after me, but even of nobody share the view I hold, what I post still has a place in this thread cuz I like it.

A game I could bring into comparison here is Intoxicating Flavor. It really isn't for me. But I know someone here really like it.

Or Supernatural. I like EndlessNight's posts, so anything they posts I pay attention to, but the art of Supernatural is really not for me so I put it far in the backlog.

Anything moskyx recommends I also would pay attention to.

I'm of the opinion that anything anyone here recommends has a place on this thread.

Yeah this thread is a great baseline for anyone's backlog there is some games I don't agree with not being considered story first and what not personally but that's just me. I always look at this thread when i have no idea what to play or just want to add something to my backlog .

This is my point.
Reading people's posts here narrows down on my search and it could save me time or far better than that, makes me discover games I wouldn't have discover otherwise.

Honestly I do agree with camube about friends in Need being story first but I do have a different opinion what story first games means to me than others on this thread as some games that feel story first to me aren't considered as such here. Nicki is probably my favorite story ( i'm waiting for the update to not be the demo build , so I can't comment on Risa yet). Ashe also is really good once you learn about her past and why she talks the way she does. Even the stories that had some set up but need more to flesh them out like Pepper , Britani, Isabella all seem really well written better than most games ive played in terms of the character stories. Now this is all coming from a Light path Dark path is much different i've only played it once or twice but I did ctrl skip past the lewds on the Dark path. I honestly hated the dark path it felt like it was just there just for the sake of being dark to me no real reason I could think of. To me FIN feels like it meant to be played the light path or in the middle and not the dark path. However alot of the player base on the thread does prefer the Dark path a bit more it feels like at times.

This Risa update is good. Nikki was a rollercoaster and I still say Nikki's backstory is still better than Risa's backstory but man, both are a rollercoaster. You should put aside time to play the update at your earliest convenience. I think you'd like it.

I was unware of that which is weird cause when I played it. It feels like the opposite to me like all of his good writing is on the light path but the dark path is terrible like it's just there for no real reason.

Yeah the Nice Guy path is good. I agree with you there.

Playing the light path is actually ridiculed by the author. Do with that what you want.

Peace

Not by the words of it's author.

He clearly stated that the only reason light path exists is for Patreon. It was always intended to be the dark path only.

Peace

Based on this talk and the previous talk about "ignore thread" I get the sense that you are very opinionated but also I really like the fact that you are cordial. The quality of politeness and not being rude to others is something I personally value.

I fully disagree with you that the author intended for the game to be played on "dark path only". That is wrong.
It is your opinion but it is not the fact.

I believe otherwise and I also believe my opinion is closer to the actual fact than yours.

For the context of my beliefs, it's because I've been playing Friends in Need since relatively early on.
There was no Nikki Removal Patch yet back then.
Friends InDeed was not a thing yet.

And the sense I get from reading Neon Ghosts posts, patreon posts updates also included in this is that he's trying to provide a story that makes sense.
He also contemplates on how to write the backstory of the characters in his world in a way that, in my word, "rooted in reality".

Some of the posts of his I read also mention that there would be consequences to MC actions in future updates.
And from asking once on F95, apparently there's already a small consequences in the Criminal Path in that one of the character left.

I personally enjoy reading the Nice Guy storyline.

I don't play all three paths so I can't personally give opinions whether or not Nice Guy, Asshole, and Criminal path all equally have stories that makes sense but I could personally say that Nice Guy storyline makes sense.

His posts that I happen to read about developments also carry nuances.
On top of that, on his patreon he'd recommend books or comics that he likes and tell his subcribers why he like those comics and what theme those comics deal with.

So as a reader I get the sense that he draw inspirations from these and it strengthen his writings on top of his natural talents.

The part that led me to hate anything related to it, is simply this:

I get on the thread, after an update, to be met with several posts proclaiming the joy those ... things... felt by being able to rape and beat one of the girls in the game. Over and over and over. Protected by a Moderator that removed any post that was against that type of content or it's discussion.

I don't really care what most people on most threads posts to be honest with you. I can just skip right over it and I do that a lot of the time.

This thread is an exception to that. I do care what people posts on this thread, which is also why I wrote long posts only on this thread. I guess I care about people's posts on this thread cuz share a common thing, maybe. Cuz we like stories.

So anyway, I don't even read those posts the way you do. I skip over it and only read Neon Ghost ones.

Hence why I said the above that his posts carry nuances and he's trying to write a story that makes sense, in the sense that there could potentially be consequences to past actions.

So I simultaneously leave the thread, like you did, but also still check Neon Ghosts posts every now and then. Not often. Not even every update.

I don't even play Friends in Need every update on time at it's release. Unlike say Projekt Passion where I drop everything to play it. There are characters that I like more than others so when I know the update is about that character, I'd play it. If not, I just stack it.

And when the update is on the character I like more than others, that's when I check Neon Ghosts recent posts.

I left the thread around the time people are complaining about Nikki's existence.
It was funny to me but I conclude these are not posts I enjoy reading and spending my time on so I just skip it.
So I left that thread earlier than you.

That is on top of generally speaking, I don't check f95zone thread that much to begin with. This thread being an exception.

I will do my best to not think bad things of anyone that plays it. It's extremely tempting to do so. But, I also know that those people that play a game like this, relish the fact that they are branded has rapists, racists, xenophobes, homophobes and the like, so, pleasing them is NOT in my plans.

I left that thread even earlier than you cuz of the Nikki thing. So I don't at all disagree with you when you said the posts on that thread talks about morally repugnant stuffs. I take that as a fact

So if you think bad about people that play Friends in Need, or about me in this context, it's okay.

Through the course of our stay in f95zone, your opinion of me (and of other people here) that play Friends in Need or whatever other games would change anyway. Views of others are not static.

I feel that I can't be objective when talking about that game. I felt betrayed. At a level that nothing else here ever did. I played a couple updates, enjoying the light path that I, like Dessolos, thought was the default one.
Then the Dark and Taboo patches were made Public. I didn't care for it, so I left it alone. I remember thinking it would be just a matter of dialogue, relationships edits, things like that.
But, no, the idea was to make default what was being hidden from Patreon. That eventually turned into the SS version, where the Dark path is the real purpose.

I still can't understand why this wasn't split into 2 threads. One for the rapists and one for decent perverts. Forcing people to read things like "It was fantastic to rape and beat Viola until she was all bloodied and then let her landlord have a go on her too" as if this is what everyone was there for and expected to enjoy.

And several people that I enjoy, being there in the middle of that, as if nothing untoward was going on. What???

Peace

I would like to give this unsolicited advice to you, as a fellow story-first lovers and fellow regulars of this thread.

Given how strongly opinionated you are, I think you should read less of posts that you consider shitty.
That's what I do.

While I do track Neon Ghosts posts cuz he's the author, I don't read most posts on most thread.
This is not just about Friends in Need thread, I don't read posts on, for example, Intertwined either. I regard both threads posts as "not for me".

Even though I play Friends in Need earlier than you, still play it until now, so I play it longer than you, I am pretty confident my time spent on Friends in Need f95 thread is far less than you.

I don't even get to read the "celebration of criminal behaviors" on that thread that you read a lot of.
Because I left Friends in Need thread after I read many posts that shit on Nikki. It was funny to read but I conclude it's not for me.
And this happen a long time ago, long before Friends in Need was as popular as today.

**For a very long time, I thought Nikki Removal Patch was an actual patch where the dev yield to the demands of it's players/customers.** Apparently it's a troll patch. That's how I checked out I am from Friends in Need thread.

If I have time to spare, I would rather read this Jufot's story-first games thread (thank you for making it man) or just play games.

If Neon Ghosts leave f95 entirely, like Nyx does, I would check Friends in Need thread extremely rarely. The same way I check Intertwined thread extremely rarely.

The author is the author.
The players are the players.

I'm interested on reading what the authors posts. Patreon posts moreso.
I'm not really interested on reading what most players posts on f95, so i don't read those

And to think I had it on my signature as a recommended game.

Through the course of this conversation, I actually became quite interested on games you would recommend in the future.
Please share with the rest of us when you find a game worth typing and spending time here.

People with strong opinions may have strong love on some things. And a product that could make someone love it, on the other hand could make someone else hate it.
I like that.

Strong opinions are good. If someone make something that is loved by some and hated by some others, it could be a good product to try. It's better than if the game elicit indifference and the quality just average. Now that, is a waste of time.

Man I hope i do this multi-quote thing correctly

 

[camube]

His complexity is reduced by the power-fantasy that his wealth brings with it. It makes his progression very linear and the relationships are top-down because he is basically untouchable.

And the MC in Friends in Need is clearly in control, even when he struggles there is never existential desperation as Tyrion experienced it.

I missed quoting you but your two posts are a part of what I'm looking forward to read on the Second Half of Friends in Need. So I guess starting from 2 years or now or so.

My read of Neon Ghosts posts is that there will be consequences to being an asshole. That means there would be even more consequences of being a criminal. I'm looking forward to seeing the Asshole path consequences.

But since it's still in the future, that's for later. I don't even have an Asshole-specific save path currently at the moment. And I don't want to spend time replaying the game now to go through Asshole path from the beginning. I'd be more inclined to do that route when the Consequences Second Half has already been here.

Cuz who knows how long it takes to develop. Bare Witness took more than a year to flesh out it's endings.

He clearly stated that the only reason light path exists is for Patreon. It was always intended to be the dark path only.

Peace

There's a context that is missed there. At this point, (or more accurately, at some time in the past by the last time I checked), there's three path of Friends in Need in 2 versions.

Friends InDeed is created for Patreon, that's true. But Nice Guy path is not at all created for Patreon. It existed from the beginning.

The default game that is called Friends in Need always has Nice guy path and Asshole path.
That is the game that exist from the beginning and what became "the Subscribestar version".

Taboo Patch adds another option to this Default game, the Criminal path. The one you hate and the morally repugnant one is this optional version.
The patch can only be installed on Subscribestar Version not on patreon version.

Friends InDeed was created later on long after the game initially released. It's created to comply with Patreon and it also has a different name.
One thing of note I've wrote above is that Taboo Patch doesn't work for Friends InDeed.

And I think there is a difference in choices between the default Friends In Need and Friends InDeed even without putting in the taboo patch. As in I'm not really sure all the Asshole choices in Default all existed in Friends InDeed.

Though I'm not gonna spend time to play InDeed and In Need side by side to test that view.

So anyway that InDeed version is the game that is created for Patreon like you said. The Nice Guy path version and my baseless guess that maybe it doesn't contain all the Asshole path choices.

Criminal Route is the optional version. Everyone can play without the patch and if you don't go out of your way to install it and only download off of f95, no Criminal path is the default version.

 

[Dessolos]

This Risa update is good. Nikki was a rollercoaster and I still say Nikki's backstory is still better than Risa's backstory but man, both are a rollercoaster. You should put aside time to play the update at your earliest convenience. I think you'd like it.

Can't wait to play it im just waiting for the full update to play it then it's at the top of my list since it's only a demo build of the update right now