Recommending Story-first games

[camube]

I can not and will not even bother to go there to try and understand these minutiae, the thread is abhorrent

you don't have to, that's why we're all here.
You can copy my notes on the games i play so you can save time, and i will copy your notes on the games you play so i can also save time
I do that a lot. Read other people's notes to decide which game to play.

 

[moskyx]

I know that some Devs are here, so, I'll try and share my feelings, hopefully without being too harsh. The problem I find with the choose ONE type is that it turns the all game/story into the choice. You are not there to enjoy and follow a story, but to try and find out which one will go with your character to bed. At this point, I have to wonder, why even have a choice of LIs? Why not make a longer game, with a more involving story, and only ONE LI. Two max. Why go to the unbelievable boring trouble of making multiple paths that are completely meaningless, because the choice itself makes them pointless?

I am aware that I am oversimplifying this, but, the fact is, none of the choices really matter, unless, the choice itself is the story. And that, is a plot that makes me NOT play again.

How much bigger and better would a single LI game be, if the Dev time could be used to take the story and the plot out of the choice pit? There are many of those games out, some good, some awesome. Why? Because they aren't marooned in a pit of repeating the same scenes with a different model, then another, then another, then another... ad vomit.

You raise some interesting points. Focusing on this part, I'd say that many players are actually demanding that option you don't like. They just want to be able to pick their favourite LI from a whole squad of awesome characters, no matter the implications (that can go from narrative inconsistency to incoherent characterization). After all, this genre is mostly used as an escapism method and people are willing to sacrifice their standards to get some relief. And many devs think that way too, or find that approach more attractive, business-wise -after all, if a players dislike your only LI, he'll quite the game altogether, while he might stay if there are more LI's, so these 'single LI' devs have only one chance and must get their characters right from the very beginning if they want to be succesful, while the other devs have some room to handle those negative first impressions just by throwing in another piece of meat.

We could take Tlaero games in the 'Elsaverse' as a prime example of how to create a fully-fledged narrative with several LI's but presented as a bunch of independent 'single LI' stories, which is something that could attract players like FatGiant. That requires some good planning, though, and sadly the outcome is not exactly mainstream. On the other hand, I'll mention games like 'CIty of Broken Dreamers' by Philly or even 'Become a Rock Star' by MrJet, that offer a wide cast of LI's serving one overarching story that is not deeply affected by how the player chooses to play the game (either being loyal to a LI or bedding all of them at the same time, or even doing a celibate route).

And I'm explicitly mentioning these 2 games because they are not harem games but handle 'THE CHOICE' very differently. In COBD there's no actual consequences for the 'manwhore' route and all the LI's you can choose to have sex with are more or less aware of the others and, besides some minor exceptions (like Gloria not willing to keep having sex with the MC if he has expressed some feelings for Ellen or Katie), are kind of OK with the MC 'playing the field' until he finally picks one of them. Meanwhile, the MC internal monologue in BaRS is constantly making the player aware that he is cheating and this won't end well -and it doesn't: at a certain point, the girls learn about this and the MC is left alone, with no option to 'fix it' with anyone. I find this approach very interesting.

Leaving aside other important technical aspects, I don't need to mention which dev is getting more money from players. And I can't help but wonder how important is for these players, when they choose to actually support a game, to have a wide cast handled like Philly did. So I can't blame other devs for trying to replicate that. Why would you sacrifice the option to get more supporters by offering them more LI's to pick from, if those LI's can be totally interchangeable in your story? Your only limit is time.

But it's an old debate, probably fueled by the blurred lines between 'dating sims' and 'visual novels' (as in, 'story-focused AVN').

 

[Hildegardt]

I fully disagree with you that the author intended for the game to be played on "dark path only". That is wrong.
It is your opinion but it is not the fact.

I believe otherwise and I also believe my opinion is closer to the actual fact than yours.

For the context of my beliefs, it's because I've been playing Friends in Need since relatively early on.
There was no Nikki Removal Patch yet back then.
Friends InDeed was not a thing yet.

And the sense I get from reading Neon Ghosts posts, patreon posts updates also included in this is that he's trying to provide a story that makes sense.
He also contemplates on how to write the backstory of the characters in his world in a way that, in my word, "rooted in reality"

I came across Friends in Need when it first released and back then I thought it was an interesting story. It only had three characters, the PC and his bff (with a lot of chemistry between them) Nikki and her deadbeat boyfriend, which was an interesting constellation that kicked off the premise quite well: The PC suddenly gets rich and his bff's up to this point slightly abusive relationship turns even darker, when her boyfriend gets envious.
But this soured pretty quickly when the first major choice was to either blow Nikki off, help her, coerce her or rape her. These choices are not coherent. The premise of the game wasn't actually interesting, it was only enabling a violent power fantasy fetish.
I tried Friends in Need again a few updates later. I didn't know about different versions, so I don't know which version I got, but I doubt it'd change my opinion. There were now a lot of different characters, but all of them with the same abusive power dynamics in favour of the PC, diluting the interesting initial premise even more. One of them was a loli for which the game prompted me to input how old I would like her to be. That's when I stopped playing.

The thing about story-first AVNs is that they're still AVNs. No matter how prominent the story is, it can't be divorced from the context of the fetish content. Even the games that take story-first literally and tack on the porn post hoc can't escape this. If a game has a strong main fetish, then the whole story will have this tinge.
So for FiN this means that even the Nice Guy™ path is just a variation of the same fetish (it's probably even heavier incel vibes than playing as an outright rapist tbh). This isn't necessarily a problem and I actually wish more devs would stop seeing story and kinky as opposites. But for one, some fetishes are better suited for compelling stories than others. And secondly, as FiN shows, the fetish can't stand on its own, there still has to be a story there.
"Get money, get bitches" is not a story. Even if every next "bitch" has even more challanging challanges for us to wallow in than the one before. That's not layered, that's cheap gratification.

But it's an old debate, probably fueled by the blurred lines between 'dating sims' and 'visual novels' (as in, 'story-focused AVN').

God damn, if there's anything I hate about the current AVN landscape, it's that every single game has to have dating sim mechanics or else a bunch of people complain about being "forced" into stuff. I don't understand how so many people can think that this is clever criticism. Nobody ever forced anyone to pirate a game.

 

[camube]

I'd say that many players are actually demanding that option you don't like. They just want to be able to pick their favourite LI from a whole squad of awesome characters, no matter the implications (that can go from narrative inconsistency to incoherent characterization)

Generally speaking, harem is more boring to me than games that have actual consequences, cuz for me, story is important so if it's CYOA, consequences of CYOA is important.
Harem by definition means there's less consequences in the story with regard to interpersonal relationship

So if the main story is boring it will be boring for me. I would drop Eternum if it's just a harem game. The world and the action sequences is why i keep playing. The harem part bored the crap out of me. But that's more because i don't think caribdis is that a good of a character writer compared to world building, and setting action scenes.

Meanwhile, the MC internal monologue in BaRS is constantly making the player aware that he is cheating and this won't end well -and it doesn't: at a certain point, the girls learn about this and the MC is left alone, with no option to 'fix it' with anyone. I find this approach very interesting.

This is why I like games like the ones created by noping. In the game it surprises me when this character called Clara suddenly try to kiss MC out of the blue. I control the MC to say "no", cuz he has a set backstory that he was depressed due to some things.

So turned out, rejecting Clara is one of the requirement to get to this other character route called Mia in Ch. 3. Which makes sense in-world cuz of what Clara, Mia, and MC relationship was prior to the game opening.

I really like that. I like things like that where there's a consistency in the world between the characters regardless of our choices, and when we make choices, I like when there there's consequences we can see.

On that note, I do wonder, other than the top of the top like BaDIK, which path has higher likelihood to yield 300 to 500 patrons for creators?

Sex-first games, or Story-first games?
and harem or not?

Cuz man, sex-first games that has no story doesn't make me open my wallet.
Harem that has nothing to say is boring for me (and usually it has nothing to say).

But I also see story-first games has very few patrons.
So i don't know and i myself wonder.

 

[_SomeOneElse_]

[..]
Strong opinions are good. If someone make something that is loved by some and hated by some others, it could be a good product to try. It's better than if the game elicit indifference and the quality just average. Now that, is a waste of time.
[..]

The important (hopefully just unwritten) part is (at least in my opinion!): within the common sense / boundaries. Acts like abuse, rape, etc. can never be something good because of the intention itself and so there can't be something like a (ethically) good product that enables a player to act/play a story in that way.

And because the discussion was about the "darker paths" in some games, it may correlates that these games are just missing in the first post regardless what is individually acceptable to each of us.

 

[365 others]

I always regard one side of the coin of this thread is that this is Jufot's thread, and we're living in it.
"Story-first games" is just the name, but ultimately Jufot decides what's in and not in the first page.

I can see where you're coming from, but It's my understanding (even if it may be wrong) that the games listed, for example in Jaike's compended list on this thread have had somewhat a concensus from the community about being or not a story-first oriented games.

That of course, does not mean that games outside of that "official list" are not good or that they do not deserve a good reading and supporting.

I'm of the opinion that anything anyone here recommends has a place on this thread.

This is my point.
Reading people's posts here narrows down on my search and it could save me time or far better than that, makes me discover games I wouldn't have discover otherwise.

I completely agree with you on this. This thread has also allowed me to get new interesting readings depending on the posting users.

I would also add that one thing I really like on this thread is that usually players are elaborating on their opinions and state facts that makes them consider a game in this thread category or not. I value a lot, for example, a feedback from Jufot or FatGiant, because although they both like different things both write about them in a detailed and well substained argument; that helps me form an idea if I could like or not a game recommended by them.

I believe otherwise and I also believe my opinion is closer to the actual fact than yours.

For the context of my beliefs, it's because I've been playing Friends in Need since relatively early on.
There was no Nikki Removal Patch yet back then.
Friends InDeed was not a thing yet.

I'd love to know what these facts are other than "I started playing earlier than you". I, for example, started with it since the first version that got published here, and have been following it until around 2 or 3 versions back.

When I wrote my opinion on this game it was based on what I experienced through my playtroughs (had at least 4), as I tend to try different options to see what would happen.

And the sense I get from reading Neon Ghosts posts, patreon posts updates also included in this is that he's trying to provide a story that makes sense.
He also contemplates on how to write the backstory of the characters in his world in a way that, in my word, "rooted in reality".

Some of the posts of his I read also mention that there would be consequences to MC actions in future updates.
And from asking once on F95, apparently there's already a small consequences in the Criminal Path in that one of the character left.

That he does. I can't critizise the effort he makes to give this game's story sense and to keep it coherent and consistent in spite of the several good/bad decisions the player can make. He also has paid attention to each character background and has developed a good story base for each of them.

However, they are still kind of "add in" stories. The main story arc is still not affected by their arrival, the guy who has a ton of money and is spending it however he pleases (usually to help, impress, and/or seduce a LI).

I'd love for example, for the story to go deeper on the MC background. To get to know his family, to give this MC a purpose other than spending a lot of money on impressing or helping his LIs. To have him evolving in some way other than getting romatically (or corruptely) entangled with the women on the story.

I haven't seen yet a real or serious consequence of him making decisions on the game. And as I stated on my previous post, if I were to remove all the lewd content from this game, it would end up with barely something to tell about.

Unless the story had radically changed in the last 2 - 3 updates, if removing the sex content I would still end up with the story of a guy who has a ton of money and is spending it however it pleases him. No family, no challenges to face, no moral dilemmas, anything. MC has no other thing to do than spend his money.

This thread is an exception to that. I do care what people posts on this thread, which is also why I wrote long posts only on this thread. I guess I care about people's posts on this thread cuz share a common thing, maybe. Cuz we like stories.

Same here. It's rare for me to write on a game's threads, but this thread has proven to be a safe place for everyone to post their opinions, as long as they are respectful.

I don't even play Friends in Need every update on time at it's release. Unlike say Projekt Passion where I drop everything to play it. There are characters that I like more than others so when I know the update is about that character, I'd play it. If not, I just stack it.

I tend to avoid playing update by update (with a few exceptions), as I really hate cliffhangers. I usually play 1 or 2 versions behind the latest one when I do, and for most of the readings I try to get VNs/games being either completed or with a lot of content.

I left the thread around the time people are complaining about Nikki's existence.
It was funny to me but I conclude these are not posts I enjoy reading and spending my time on so I just skip it.
So I left that thread earlier than you.

I also stopped paying attention to threads because of similar reasons. While I can understand players commenting, critizising or supporting a game, I really hate when they get personal and start attacking either the developers or other players. Many of them treat the devs as if they were contractualy obligued to do things the way they like.

Strong opinions are good. If someone make something that is loved by some and hated by some others, it could be a good product to try. It's better than if the game elicit indifference and the quality just average. Now that, is a waste of time.

I totally agree. I have found games here that were not accepted in the criteria, but that I ended up enjoying them a lot.
Even if a game is not "accepted" as a first-story oriented game in this thread, it doesn't make it bad nor it means I can't enjoy its writing and story.

 

[Cskin Games]

Sex-first games, or Story-first games?
and harem or not?

Cuz man, sex-first games that has no story doesn't make me open my wallet.
Harem that has nothing to say is boring for me (and usually it has nothing to say).

But I also see story-first games has very few patrons.
So i don't know and i myself wonder.

the priority basically goes like this, as far as patron count etc goes.

#1 - visual quality. This is king. It doesn't matter how little sex you have, or how shit the story or the writing is, or anything else. High quality visuals are going to bring in patrons regardless. The cap for this is unlimited - though with bad enough story or writing, ive noticed they tend to cap around 500 or so

#2 - Sex. Looking past visual quality, how much sex is in a game makes a big difference. The more there is, the more patrons you'll pull, and the lower visual quality you can get away with. This usually caps out around 1k patrons or so unless the visual quality is also there. Occasionally you'll do better, but it's rare.

#3 - Name recognition. This is generally more important than writing or story - simply how well known the dev is. Someone who's made a name for themselves in the past, that comes through with a mediocre or shit story is going to do better than someone with a well written one by an unknown. From what I've seen, assuming you don't have the visual quality or sex to go with it, this tends to cap out around 500ish.

#4 - Story. Just like above, the other 2 are more important. Given 2 games where the above 2 are equal, the one with the better story will do better, but it's less important. At this point we're starting to hit a cap of about 100 or so patrons - assuming you don't have a ton of sex, super high visual quality, or name recgonition.

#5 - Writing. This is different than the story - we're just talking the sheer quality of the actual writing/dialogue vs the story being told.


None of these are set in stone of course - there's exceptions to everything, but in my experience and from what I've seen, this seems to be the general trend of things.

 

[camube]

I'd love to know what these facts are other than "I started playing earlier than you".

That was a reply to Fatgiant’s comment saying “It was always intended to be the dark path only.”

Which is not true. From my view

Since you are a fellow Friends in Need player like me, I never even see Mason’s scene you know. And I’ve seen Neon Ghost post takes about Mason and how he went about writing and creating Mason.
As a person, you have to have nuances in you to even introduce and write a character like Mason. That added with his posts on f95 makes me believe that Friends in Need is not created for Dark Path only.

I do agree that Neon Ghost is trying to sell a product, but just because other people like Dark Chocolate that he's selling doesn’t mean he doesn’t also trying to sell French Vanilla to others.
That’s my subjective take.

Objective take, Neon himself did say it himself on f95 somewhere, and I think not just once,where he said wanted to deliver a story that makes sense for both sides.
And I would Nice Guy's storyline does makes sense.
Nice Guy and Nikki is pretty heartwarming. Not because of how Nikki acts towards Guy, it's how Nikki talks about Guy to this other character. It's good writing.
Lately I read his comments from Neon that said that he wanted to write in it that actions would eventually have consequences.

I myself am looking forward to the Second Half where Guy would eventually got screwed off of his actions and decisions. Sure the first half of the story is him, with his money, helping people or coercing other people.
But in the background, these characters actually intertwined with each other a bit. It doesn’t take much for Guy to get screwed.
I don’t want to spoil Update 9 cuz Dessolos haven’t play it but yeah, eventually things gonna change. The doors are closing in bit by bit, and I myself am looking forward to 2 years from now when Nice Guy and Asshole Guy path diverge and I want to see Neon's writing.

Small addition, Apparently there’s already a small consequence to Guy’s criminal action. In the Criminal Path, turned out Viola permanently left. I did not know that. I asked on f95.
So that’s a precedent to Neon stating there would eventually be consequences

 

[FatGiant]

Viola permanently left

Good. I hope all those animals salivating for being able to rape and brutally assaulting her, learn a lesson there.

What a disgusting bunch of people. Them and the Mod that protected their right to say it without any consequences.

Peace

 

[Canto Forte]

Life for Guy starts with actual blackmail and the very real possibility that either the girl he pines for or her abusive boyfriend would drop the name of MC to the lawn sharks who sex traffick and rape and possibly murder/dissapear/overdose the girls they feel that might owe them anything.

So far, this criteria has led me to find really good games that I have enjoyed because of the story they tell, while having some "spicy" content to add a bit extra of flavour.

For FiN, this is not the case. By removing all its lewd content, most of the story loses meaning or sense, as the vast majority (if not all) the decisions the MC has to make are related directly or indiretly on how he romances/corrupts a given LI.

There is no back story at all. It's about a dude who got lucky with cripto currency and had a ton of money and nothing to do with it. And his actions with that money are basically all oriented to get close to his LIs.

While the LIs may be well written, their stories don't really bring anything to the main arc. If you were, for example, to remove Nikki from the game, even with her sad story, nothing would change for the MC. He does not evolve based on his interactions with her, has no character improvement, has no journey to follow (If I'm not wrong, there was even a patch to alter the game and remove her).

As a person, you have to have nuances in you to even introduce and write a character like Mason. That added with his posts on f95 makes me believe that Friends in Need is not created for Dark Path only.

Good. I hope all those animals salivating for being able to rape and brutally assaulting her, learn a lesson there.

What a disgusting bunch of people. Them and the Mod that protected their right to say it without any consequences.

Peace

Great! Everyone should be stealing your lines and plastering them on all the NTR threads where it is actual rape and / or brutal assault that the vilains are doing to the girls or to MC.

Funny how nobody cares if the ”bad guys” rape, beat, mame or murder MC or the girls in the games, namely in a lot of NTR focused games that ”offer” a good guy route where the NTRd MC might get one girl after a truck load of shit dumped on him the whole game.

You would be amiss not to recognize that for the longest time the vilains who did actual crimes towards Nikky and many of the other girls are as of yet unpunnished, while MC is said to get Karma slap him hard. Why? How is MC being bad a worse path than the long time criminals going after him or his girls?

Why is it nobody cares of the gratuitous repe and mmurder that vilains are afforded in many games ”to show how bad they are” when MC or anybody else in never getting to give them comeuppance. Even in this game, MC is not Rambo or Punisher - who is going to revenge on the bad guys? If the bad guys are plot armored, why should MC be punished?
Where is the rage boner for seeing Karma crush the absolute assholes who have been ruining the life of Nikky and of the other girls? Suddenly MC has to suffer?

The tyrion comparison is even greater here: HE outlives all his family and all the wars, despite being ”frail” - but he has always been wealthy and powerful as the hand of Deni or the son of Tywinn - never had any care in the world, until he entered the GAme of Thrones totally by accident and he made it despite his unresolved crimes.

Not to mentiopn of all the ”R.R.Martin ex makina” moments where random skilled strangers offer to fight and die for Tyrion.

If R.R. Martin can snake his way into your library with murder+incest+rape+torture boner literature, why not Neon Ghost be on your hard drive ???

 

[365 others]

That added with his posts on f95 makes me believe that Friends in Need is not created for Dark Path only.

I agree, but going back to some statements previously shared in this thread, I don't see it as something positive. It adds more complexity, wich in its turn makes harder keeping the story coherent and consistent. It does not help the fact that Guy can be a good guy with one character but completely evil with another.

I do agree that Neon Ghost is trying to sell a product but, just because other people like Dark Chocolate doesn’t mean he doesn’t also trying to sell French Vanilla.

That is where I think he is getting greedy. Not because of the financial aspect (subscribers) but rather trying to please everyone at the same time.
He already has to maintain 2 versions of the same story for the sake of keeping open both options regarding paths. Difficulty, times and story cohesion will be increasingly affected as he has to enter more characters and have them intertwined while maintaining the type of relationship Guy has with each one.

On top of that, there is still nothing special about Guy, and I'm affraid the day Neon finally remembers about him and wants to give him some background or direction it will be too hard for him to give it now that is so entangled with all the noise of the different relationships, types and paths.

Lately I read his comments from Neon that said that he wanted to write in it that actions would eventually have consequences.

I myself am looking forward to the Second Half where Guy would eventually got screwed off of his actions and decisions.

I can see that happening on the Dark/Criminal paths, but not as much with the Nice path. We'll still see where it goes.
He has been taking his sweet time to give Guy some development, and giving it will be harder as the progression with all the surrounding characters goes.

The doors are closing in bit by bit, and I myself am looking forward to 2 years from now when Nice Guy and Asshole Guy path diverge and I want to see Neon's writing.

That is one of the reasons that has been making me uninterested in keeping playing. I honestly haven't seen anything relevant for the main arc in at least 2 releases, and as per the comments it seems there is nothing happening yet. There are more interactions with the love interests, but nothing regarding Guy himself.

Small addition, Apparently there’s already a small consequence to Guy’s criminal action. In the Criminal Path, turned out Viola permanently left. I did not know that. I asked on f95.
So that’s a precedent to Neon stating there would eventually be consequences

I'm glad to read it! I loved how he wrote Viola, and I can do nothing short of emphatize with FatGiant on his repulsion over what it can be done to her.
I think I felt even more repulsion over how she's been treated than what happened to Nikki.

 

[Dessolos]

Please don't feel offended or targeted, it is but an attempt to move from repeating again all that I said already.

While reading this thread I can't help to fixate on the 2 games in your signature. I've had very harsh feelings for both of them, LOL.

1- Intertwined - At some point NYX decided to leave an update on a cliffhanger that suggested that one of the LI's would be assaulted and possibly killed. I simply couldn't play the game for quite a long time after. Why? Besides the fact that I consider cliffhangers the worst possible way to leave a story (for whatever period of time), this specific LI is the one for me. The rest of the game could simply disappear as long as she remained. Not only that, but making that type of insinuation, and leaving it to fester for as long as an update would take (with that developer, you never know how long it is, except that it's a long time) created in me a complete distrust in their work. I never hated the story, but, for a long time I simply couldn't look at it, without thinking, this is gonna suck and I don't want to read it. I finally relented and even replayed it from the start, but, there's a permanent sensation that this dev is playing with you, the trust that it will not suck, is simply gone, and I'm always waiting for the shoe... nay... the Piano to drop. I simply don't feel good playing it, while at the same time, I love it's story.

2- Hillside - I rage quit that game. Deleted the files. For the first time went in search of the saves in the App folder and nuked them. Why? Well, this is not an easy one. After sometime playing games from here, I started fine tuning the type of games and stories that I enjoy more than others. One of those realizations is that I don't like Cheating. The other is that I REALLY don't like games of the type "Choose ONE". I was fully aware that that game isn't an Harem, and I would have to choose only one. There I was clicking along, loving all the potential LI's. Getting to know them and so on. Then in comes the sister of the model. Flirt left and right, and I was expecting this is gonna go bad, because I will have to choose but maybe I'll go and try a multi-path here because I'm loving this story. So, I kept going, waiting for the choose now... It comes when they are on the bed ready to boing-boing... No, no, no, no... there were many chances before that made sense... at that point, that's just NO. I haven't been able to make myself install this again. Not sure if I ever will.

In both those games the Dev committed (IMO) a cardinal sin, he broke the readers trust. One by attempting to imply the death of a love interest, the other by taking TOO LONG to force a choice. I am aware of the infatuation of most of the world with the work of G.R.R. Martin, and his absolutely murderous writing. I have all his books looking at me right now, that I've read, but truly didn't enjoy as much as the rest of the world seems to do. The TV show, I refused to watch. The reason why I can't like his work is the same, I can't trust him. I can't involve myself in a story, in a character, and then suddenly see it all go to nothing.

Nyx tried to do it. Hillside Dev, did it.

Furthermore, both of these forced me to adopt a very hard view of games with a choose ONE stance. Now, I will NOT do more than one playthrough, choose only one LI, and simply forget about those games as fast as possible.

This doesn't mean that I will not enjoy the games, but I will not subject myself to the agony of choice, over and over and over again. After all, none of those LI's really matter. All of them will have a story, will like you, will do hot things with you... then the game is over. Over and Done. Satisfaction guaranteed (or not). By the fact that they are a choice, they become interchangeable, therefore irrelevant in terms of choice. They may be awesome, they may just be OK, I'll never know, they are just a plot point and not the story.

I feel conflicted. I know that this stance of mine, protects me from the repeating agony of choice, but, the games all feel mangled. Not the Devs fault, but the game style.

Honestly why those 2 games are my favorites is very simple while I can see why you have issues with them and understand some points. For me it's simply I value character building first in my games , ( I know that's the opposite of this thread). So because of that I really do enjoy the slow burn and picking 1 LI at a time. But yeah Erynn is my favorite however I do constantly fear if she is actually going to be save especially because the MC is leaving town in the next update. As far as Hillside goes never really had that issue as I never had any interest in anyone but the mother so it was easy for me to deny the sister and not feel what you did with the choose one thing , maybe if I played the sisters path I could see where are coming from here but since I haven't and I denied her pretty early one the choose one issues never crossed my mind , but it has in other games.

I know that some Devs are here, so, I'll try and share my feelings, hopefully without being too harsh. The problem I find with the choose ONE type is that it turns the all game/story into the choice. You are not there to enjoy and follow a story, but to try and find out which one will go with your character to bed. At this point, I have to wonder, why even have a choice of LIs? Why not make a longer game, with a more involving story, and only ONE LI. Two max. Why go to the unbelievable boring trouble of making multiple paths that are completely meaningless, because the choice itself makes them pointless?

I am aware that I am oversimplifying this, but, the fact is, none of the choices really matter, unless, the choice itself is the story. And that, is a plot that makes me NOT play again.

How much bigger and better would a single LI game be, if the Dev time could be used to take the story and the plot out of the choice pit? There are many of those games out, some good, some awesome. Why? Because they aren't marooned in a pit of repeating the same scenes with a different model, then another, then another, then another... ad vomit.

I don't feel bad to play that type of games that way, after all, the Devs made all the LIs, and the type is choose ONE. So, that's what I do. I just don't go back and do it all again with another, and another, and another... Not only because it's boring, but because I don't want to be choosing over and over.

I 100% agree with this I too tend to favor games that have 1- 3 LI at the most but sadly those are rare. Tho for different reasons the lack of choices mattering in terms of plot not a big deal for me personally but I do understand why it is for many. I like smaller LI counts because it means the game can focus more on those LI and have nice slow burn relationship building being able to focus more on a plot is just bonus for me. I think it depends on the game too alot for me. As I rarely played a slice of life game where there was a decent amount plot or story. I know there is some but I feel those are rare. So slice of life games I tend to expect less choices in terms of story while other games the focus more on plot than slice of life I do expect more story focused choices.

 

[FatGiant]

Life for Guy starts with actual blackmail and the very real possibility that either the girl he pines for or her abusive boyfriend would drop the name of MC to the lawn sharks who sex traffick and rape and possibly murder/dissapear/overdose the girls they feel that might owe them anything.







Great! Everyone should be stealing your lines and plastering them on all the NTR threads where it is actual rape and / or brutal assault that the vilains are doing to the girls or to MC.

Funny how nobody cares if the ”bad guys” rape, beat, mame or murder MC or the girls in the games, namely in a lot of NTR focused games that ”offer” a good guy route where the NTRd MC might get one girl after a truck load of shit dumped on him the whole game.

You would be amiss not to recognize that for the longest time the vilains who did actual crimes towards Nikky and many of the other girls are as of yet unpunnished, while MC is said to get Karma slap him hard. Why? How is MC being bad a worse path than the long time criminals going after him or his girls?

Why is it nobody cares of the gratuitous repe and mmurder that vilains are afforded in many games ”to show how bad they are” when MC or anybody else in never getting to give them comeuppance. Even in this game, MC is not Rambo or Punisher - who is going to revenge on the bad guys? If the bad guys are plot armored, why should MC be punished?
Where is the rage boner for seeing Karma crush the absolute assholes who have been ruining the life of Nikky and of the other girls? Suddenly MC has to suffer?

The tyrion comparison is even greater here: HE outlives all his family and all the wars, despite being ”frail” - but he has always been wealthy and powerful as the hand of Deni or the son of Tywinn - never had any care in the world, until he entered the GAme of Thrones totally by accident and he made it despite his unresolved crimes.

Not to mentiopn of all the ”R.R.Martin ex makina” moments where random skilled strangers offer to fight and die for Tyrion.

If R.R. Martin can snake his way into your library with murder+incest+rape+torture boner literature, why not Neon Ghost be on your hard drive ???

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but, I think something went wrong in your reading of my posts.

When I say animals, I mean the players that go to the thread of FiN and gloat and rejoice for being able to rape and assault Viola. Those aren't in game characters, those are people, or were at some point.

I don't play games with NTR. Period. At least not after the first one, that I don't even remember the name. So, you want to take my words and go plaster them there? Do It. Couldn't care less.

You mention vilains in game, OK. They deserve their comeuppance, agreed. No violence is better than any other violence, agreed. Tell that to the other PLAYERS that play games with non-permission sex, to NOT play them... maybe then Devs would stop doing them.

I think most of your attack on me is based on the presumption that I want the MC to be punished. I do, really, I do, but only if the MC goes to the Asshole and/or Criminal Path. Then, I couldn't care less what happens to him. In fact I want the players that play those paths to have a game over with saves deletion at random points.

If you have read me, and you have, in many places, you'll know or have noticed that I sign my posts with Peace. I am indeed a lover of peace. I am a Pacifist. What I am NOT is Peaceful.

Don't R.R. Martin me, I hate his guts and detested his writing. If I have those books is because I am not the only one that lives here.

Neon Ghost absolute devotion to the Darker paths is what makes his game not welcome to my life. IF/WHEN the MC starts to be punished for his dark deeds, I may re-consider. Right now, I am NOT one of those animals that go into that absolutely revolting thread to talk about how much they enjoy that filth.

You, you do you, I guess...

Peace

 

[EndlessNights]

I came across Friends in Need when it first released and back then I thought it was an interesting story. It only had three characters, the PC and his bff (with a lot of chemistry between them) Nikki and her deadbeat boyfriend, which was an interesting constellation that kicked off the premise quite well: The PC suddenly gets rich and his bff's up to this point slightly abusive relationship turns even darker, when her boyfriend gets envious.

Honestly, I never really liked the game. The premise of "How many women can I get and what awful shit can I get away with since I have lots of money?" isn't really interesting and is pure wish fulfillment...Friends in Need struck me as having a very shallow core. The dialogue can be reasonably well-written, but I wouldn't say the relationships were deep or the writing as a whole was compelling. When a clearly underage character was introduced and presented in a creepy way, I instantly got the ick and quit the game so we probably stopped playing at about the same time. I had no idea there were taboo patches or criminal paths at that point, but I felt relieved to get away from it just the same and have felt zero desire to ever go back to it.

Playing Friends in Need did remind me of a slightly similar game I liked better, though, which is unfortunately long abandoned: Second Girl's Happiness. Like FiN, the MC becomes very wealthy all of a sudden and it instantly affects the way women view him. Second Girl's Happiness, though, dwells more on the idea of, "If you're wealthy, how can you know if someone really cares about you for you?" That to me is a way more interesting premise. The main LIs can, depending on your point of view, all be considered to have betrayed the MC because they were ready to drop him from their lives before they realized he had become wealthy, but their reasoning for doing so was realistic and understandable even as it was harsh.

SGH had a tough time in part because players often did develop a virulent dislike for the LIs under the circumstances, but the dynamics of the story remained interesting to me. It's a bit like Fallen Roads in that the LIs are far from perfect yet they're quite human. I wasn't sure any of the women were really a great fit for the MC, including the one he obviously had the biggest crush on, but I ended up thinking having them in his life was probably for the best even if he couldn't entirely trust them. If he was going to go for one romantically, I thought the one who he knew the least well, the fitness fanatic, was probably the best pick since her dropping the MC as a friend felt the least personal and targeted.

SGH's biggest weaknesses were that the dev didn't always seem like he had a clear plan and I personally didn't always like the way supernatural elements were woven into the plot. The "second girl" in the title has mental powers that for one reason or another don't work very well on the MC but he seems to have the ability to learn to use them himself. It's quite possible the game was going to go into more of a mind control direction and end up thematically more like FiN which would've been a real shame, but I guess we'll likely never know now.

 

[Deleted member 6956320]

Can I suggest you Unveiling The Unknown?
I think it fits the criteria, if you're not against the futa. I wrote a more or less long review for that game, if you want to know my more detailed opinion about the game, but feel free to ask me anything. In any case, as I said, I think it fits the criteria based in the rules written in this thread. Additionally, the developer is working in a DLC for the game.

 

[realjitter]

The fuck happened to this thread?.

After reading all the "discussion" here about FIN I decided to give it a whirl, even though I was kinda done with AVNs in generell... So I played the first 2 scenes on the dark path and.... well.. Wanna see a little teaser? a small appetizer about what this game has to offer?. You do?. Naughty boy, well, your wish is my command

Spoiler: Time to beat your meat

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Now, you might argue "But realjitter, don't be like that, you just have to play the good guy route and everything is awesome and super wholesome". Yeah right.... I mean, sure if you wanna put a blind eye on the "content" this guy creates as a whole, sure... You do you..

"But realjitter, the writing , i'm telling ya, it's like shakespeare meets stephen king, you have to read it, please,. It's THE hidden gem amongst hidden gems, I swear. You're missing out if you don't. Wait.., don't you dare close the fucking door on me. You're making a mistake here, everyone will tell you the same. It's deep dude, really deep..."



And to think that this is just the very beginning of the game, the warm up phase so to speak..... Can't wait to see what's gonna happen next. Oh wait, I already deleted it, darn it... Didn't even make it to the loli content Hildegardt mentioned because that would've been my next exit point....

 

[365 others]

Can I suggest you Unveiling The Unknown?
I think it fits the criteria, if you're not against the futa. I wrote a more or less long review for that game, if you want to know my more detailed opinion about the game, but feel free to ask me anything. In any case, as I said, I think it fits the criteria based in the rules written in this thread. Additionally, the developer is working in a DLC for the game.

Not my cup of tea, but there is not much in the game's thread description.
It still doesn't matter in my case tho, may be I'm a bigot, but I really hate anything related to futa/trans. Regardless of how many stars the game has, or even if it had the entire thread community blessings, I will never play a game with such protagonist.

It may still be of someone elses liking tho, so I'll just watch what they have to say about it.

Edit: Nothing bad with the reccomendation, tho. I'm glad people come to share what games they like, and everyone has a chance to decide wether it's for them or not.

The fuck happened to this thread?.

After reading all the "discussion" here about FIN I decided to give it a whirl, even though I was kinda done with AVNs in generell... So I played the first 2 scenes on the dark path and.... well.. Wanna see a little teaser? a small appetizer about what this game has to offer?. You do?. Naughty boy, well, your wish is my command

Now, you might argue "But realjitter, don't be like that, you just have to play the good guy route and everything is awesome and super wholesome". Yeah right.... I mean, sure if you wanna put a blind eye on the "content" this guy creates as a whole, sure... You do you..

"But realjitter, the writing , i'm telling ya, it's like shakespeare meets stephen king, you have to read it, please,. It's THE hidden gem amongst hidden gems, I swear. You're missing out if you don't. Wait.., don't you dare close the fucking door on me. You're making a mistake here, everyone will tell you the same. It's deep dude, really deep..."

And to think that this is just the very beginning of the game, the warm up phase so to speak..... Can't wait to see what's gonna happen next. Oh wait, I already deleted it, darn it... Didn't even make it to the loli content Hildegardt mentioned because that would've been my next exit point....

I think you just ilustrated very clearly FatGiant's stand on this game. Thanks!
While I did kept playing the good path only, I had to use the mod and check the guide to make sure not to stray in any choice it could take me to the dark path. And let me tell you that even the good guy path has its dark elements.

 

[camube]

The fuck happened to this thread?.

It's just the topic of the day, or the week.

I'd personally find more enjoyment talking about Deluca myself than Friends in Need.
It just so happen to be the thing people talked about today and since it's started from my post and since I'm kinda free I replied cuz I enjoy talking with you all.

I would talk about Deluca Family all day and enjoy that more if that's the current topic.
Similarly when y'all talked about Race of Life, i read it but I didn't really enjoy Race of Life that much so I didn't participate.

It was a post that turned into discussions, it's nothing more than that.

I did say I didn't go out of my way to install the Taboo Patch for a long time.
Cuz I didn't realized what's in it. And when I install it, it was tedious to even install it.

What you show with your screenshots are the options locked behind the Taboo Patch.
Without going out of your way to install the Taboo Patch, players don't have the option to make Nikki mascara running like that nor do they have option to do that to Ashe with the MC's dick the way you show in your screenshots.

That's point 1.

Point 2, Writers write. We may not like what they write but that's independent to how skillful they are.
just because Neon Ghosts or anyone write things that is disagreeable, does that at all diminish their writing capability?

No.
Their skills are their skills and what they write is what they write

If we go back to my initial post that catalyzes all of this, it was pretty short.

https://f95zone.to/threads/story-first-games.86340/page-232#post-13856848

Nikki story on that early update was a long time ago. From that time until it reaches Risa update just now span years. And in those year or two, I don't even bother mentioning Friends in Need in this thread cuz that's how little Friends in Need stays in my head, which is not very much at all.

Compared to say, Deluca or Projekt Passion, which as y'all regulars know, I mention over and over. Those games are in my head.

Y'all like stories. We all here in this thread cuz we like stories.
I think Neon Ghosts is a good writer and I was impressed with this Risa update so I mention it.

that's it.

But realjitter, the writing , i'm telling ya, it's like shakespeare meets stephen king, you have to read it, please,. It's THE hidden gem amongst hidden gems, I swear. You're missing out if you don't. Wait.., don't you dare close the fucking door on me. You're making a mistake here, everyone will tell you the same. It's deep dude, really deep..."

I didn't really go about proselytizing it the way you portray me

Point 3, Western AVN is a medium that gives us readers choices.

Friends in Need has 2 default choices, Nice choice or Asshole choice.
"Asshole" here in this particular game means "blackmail". F95zone thread also has "blackmail" tag applied to it.

The 3rd choice, Criminal Assault, is not a default. It's on a patch outside the game.
A person has to go out of their way to unlock that 3rd choice.
If anyone install that 3rd choice patch, that is on each person themselves.

We as a reader gets to choose what we want to read.
No one here is turning a blind eye to anything.
Just don't choose the options you don't like.
And for your particular screenshots, don't install it. It's outside the default Subscribestar game to begin with.

That's one of the feature of AVN. The freedom to choose what we want to read.
We don't have to complete everything and explore all the routes.

I'm repeating myself with saying the 3rd choice of not being a default choice to provide a context of my view.
I also did mention it to my initial reply to Jufot https://f95zone.to/threads/story-first-games.86340/page-232#post-13857777

But let's say Friends in Need the game came with 3 choices to begin with, Nice, Asshole, and Criminal without having to go out of our way to install anything. I'd still wouldn't choose the third option. It's there sure, but most of the time I'd just leave it alone.

Point 4, I like Western AVNs because of it's brevity. It gets to the point quicker compared to Japanese AVNs.
My view of Neon Ghost being a good writer despite what they write is rooted in that.

Japanese AVNs touches subject matters that is equally or even more disagreeable than what Neon writes. Also dives far, far deeper into the subjects they write too (cuz the playtime is also way longer).

Anyway, I'm at my limit of discussing Friends in Need cuz it's not a fun talk anymore.

Let's pivot to discussing some other games instead.

 

[Cskin Games]

the priority basically goes like this, as far as patron count etc goes.

#1 - visual quality. This is king. It doesn't matter how little sex you have, or how shit the story or the writing is, or anything else. High quality visuals are going to bring in patrons regardless. The cap for this is unlimited - though with bad enough story or writing, ive noticed they tend to cap around 500 or so

#2 - Sex. Looking past visual quality, how much sex is in a game makes a big difference. The more there is, the more patrons you'll pull, and the lower visual quality you can get away with. This usually caps out around 1k patrons or so unless the visual quality is also there. Occasionally you'll do better, but it's rare.

#3 - Name recognition. This is generally more important than writing or story - simply how well known the dev is. Someone who's made a name for themselves in the past, that comes through with a mediocre or shit story is going to do better than someone with a well written one by an unknown. From what I've seen, assuming you don't have the visual quality or sex to go with it, this tends to cap out around 500ish.

#4 - Story. Just like above, the other 2 are more important. Given 2 games where the above 2 are equal, the one with the better story will do better, but it's less important. At this point we're starting to hit a cap of about 100 or so patrons - assuming you don't have a ton of sex, super high visual quality, or name recgonition.

#5 - Writing. This is different than the story - we're just talking the sheer quality of the actual writing/dialogue vs the story being told.


None of these are set in stone of course - there's exceptions to everything, but in my experience and from what I've seen, this seems to be the general trend of things.

I actually did want to elaborate on this just a little bit more.

If you ask the majority of players, or run polls, or anything like that - you will never get this answer. Overwhelmingly the responses you will get are "Story is most important to me" - you will see this time and time again every time you ask players - and it's incredibly misleading.

Completely ignoring my games for a moment and pretending they don't exist - I have seen some extremely well written games get ignored time and time again despite being praised over and over for the quality of the writing and story - because they either have low visual quality, or none (text-based). I've even seen a couple get recently abandoned despite being really well done - because the support just did not exist.

At the same time, games with absolutely mediocre at best stories are topping the charts left and right - and it's because of how good the visuals in those games are.

If you look at the games that get talked about the most? (outside of this thread) They're almost always the best looking ones - because those are the ones being played the most.

The sad truth is, to the majority of players (the VAST majority) story doesn't matter. The only time it matters is if you're looking at 2 games of equal visual quality - and then sure, players will prefer the one with better story. But 99 times out of 100, the better looking game will get a LOT more supported (as in orders of magnitude more) - despite the mediocre or sometimes poor quality of the writing.

This isn't to say that all good looking games are poorly written - some (very few, but some) manage the best of both worlds. They manage to combine stunning visuals, with good writing. And there are plenty of great looking games that are written... not great, but well enough.

All of this is to say, most people will tell you that to them, story is the most important element - but aside from a small minority, they're lying to themselves. It's not an outright lie, because they actually believe it when they say it - but when it comes to supporting games, actions speak louder than words.

 

[jamdan]

I think "story" means different things to different people. We've all read reviews that praise a games story, while the same game may not even have a story to someone else.

Story may mean an engaging plot. It may be fun characters. Or for some, it's "does this game contain fetishes I like? " . Some like consequences, some don't. And it goes on.

So overall, story like everything else, is open for interpretation.

For your list, I think it's fairly accurate. But I'd add "gameplay" to the list somewhere. Some people don't like gameplay at all, and others won't play games that don't have it. I'd also flip "sex" with "art quality". Or more specifically, "fetish content".