Recommending Story-first games

[FatGiant]

I actually did want to elaborate on this just a little bit more.

If you ask the majority of players, or run polls, or anything like that - you will never get this answer. Overwhelmingly the responses you will get are "Story is most important to me" - you will see this time and time again every time you ask players - and it's incredibly misleading.

Completely ignoring my games for a moment and pretending they don't exist - I have seen some extremely well written games get ignored time and time again despite being praised over and over for the quality of the writing and story - because they either have low visual quality, or none (text-based). I've even seen a couple get recently abandoned despite being really well done - because the support just did not exist.

At the same time, games with absolutely mediocre at best stories are topping the charts left and right - and it's because of how good the visuals in those games are.

If you look at the games that get talked about the most? (outside of this thread) They're almost always the best looking ones - because those are the ones being played the most.

The sad truth is, to the majority of players (the VAST majority) story doesn't matter. The only time it matters is if you're looking at 2 games of equal visual quality - and then sure, players will prefer the one with better story. But 99 times out of 100, the better looking game will get a LOT more supported (as in orders of magnitude more) - despite the mediocre or sometimes poor quality of the writing.

This isn't to say that all good looking games are poorly written - some (very few, but some) manage the best of both worlds. They manage to combine stunning visuals, with good writing. And there are plenty of great looking games that are written... not great, but well enough.

All of this is to say, most people will tell you that to them, story is the most important element - but aside from a small minority, they're lying to themselves. It's not an outright lie, because they actually believe it when they say it - but when it comes to supporting games, actions speak louder than words.

I need to ask you a very stupid question. Yes, I know, if I know it is stupid, why do you need to ask it... well, because I can't figure out the answer by myself, and believe me, I've tried.

I played Alive. Couldn't fall in love with it, but, didn't dislike it either.

I almost started to play No Such Luck, but, Sandbox really is NOT for me.

My stupid question is: As a storyteller, why choose Sandbox?

To my eyes, a Sandbox game is the same as dismantling a book, removing the page numbers and then, after throwing the whole thing up in the air a few times, give random pages to the reader and tell them to read it however they want. As in, the whole story may be there, but there's no structure, no order, no persistence, no sequence. How can this be called anything but a Mess?

I may have no right to ask this, so if that's the case, just ignore me.

Peace

 

[Cskin Games]

To my eyes, a Sandbox game is the same as dismantling a book, removing the page numbers and then, after throwing the whole thing up in the air a few times, give random pages to the reader and tell them to read it however they want. As in, the whole story may be there, but there's no structure, no order, no persistence, no sequence. How can this be called anything but a Mess?

I may have no right to ask this, so if that's the case, just ignore me.

Peace

Short answer: It's not sandbox. It has freeroams. (If you've ever played badik - similar gameplay. Artemis has toyed with it too - though in lesser amounts). Any game with freeroams in them tend to get tagged "sandbox" on this site.

Now you can say what you want about freeroams, and some players absolutely hate them, and that's completely fair - but there's a big difference IMO between that and sandbox.

 

[Dessolos]

I think "story" means different things to different people. We've all read reviews that praise a games story, while the same game may not even have a story to someone else.

Story may mean an engaging plot. It may be fun characters. Or for some, it's "does this game contain fetishes I like? " . Some like consequences, some don't. And it goes on.

So overall, story like everything else, is open for interpretation.

For your list, I think it's fairly accurate. But I'd add "gameplay" to the list somewhere. Some people don't like gameplay at all, and others won't play games that don't have it. I'd also flip "sex" with "art quality". Or more specifically, "fetish content".

so much this . Yeah for me I consider story the main plot line not really individual plot points of the story that more like a side quest / side story to me. Tho it can be argue that is story 2. So for me I lean more in favor of those "side quest" as im more interested in character the a main plot in most games.

 

[FatGiant]

Short answer: It's not sandbox. It has freeroams. (If you've ever played badik - similar gameplay. Artemis has toyed with it too - though in lesser amounts). Any game with freeroams in them tend to get tagged "sandbox" on this site.

Now you can say what you want about freeroams, and some players absolutely hate them, and that's completely fair - but there's a big difference IMO between that and sandbox.

Oooooh... OK. That I can get behind. Not that I am a big fan of them, but I can get over it, no problemo.

Just a suggestion, maybe put that on the Dev Notes or in the Genre Spoiler. Like this Sandbox (freeroams only). Because like me there's a LOT of other players that will stay away because of it.

In that case it is even eligible to the VN prefix, or it should be for some reasonable staffers.

There's also a risk with the Sandbox fans dissing your game because it is not what they want.

For example, camube keeps mentioning Deluca's Family, I'll never play it, because it is Sandbox. Or, maybe it isn't, but it's marked as so, so, I'll never get near it. My loss? Maybe, but how many others think like me?

Unclear or Obfuscated details are NOT a good way to showcase a game.

Peace

 

[camube]

Completely ignoring my games for a moment and pretending they don't exist - I have seen some extremely well written games get ignored time and time again despite being praised over and over for the quality of the writing and story - because they either have low visual quality, or none (text-based). I've even seen a couple get recently abandoned despite being really well done - because the support just did not exist.

I'm highlighting this part of your post

I've seen Projekt Passion with it's extremely consistent release gets higher and higher number of patrons, and on the other hand I've seen Mad World with it's inconsistent release gets 0 support.
That is 2 extreme examples and an oversimplification at that but, I sincerely believe that Mad World should get more support that it had.
Even if the problem with Mad World is not just simply about the long release but also cuz Capella had the misfortune with his PC trouble too.

I feel like one of the big problem with most AVN games is discovery. The fact that most people (that are already AVN players) may not know of these games.
I really like Unravelling August and I didn't get to know about that game until Update 2. And Realm Invaders until Ep 2 Part 1 If a person like me that is fairly active on f95 doesn't discover the game at Update 1, the average person maybe doesn't discover these games until Update 4 or 5.

Projekt Passion is great with extremely consistent release and also, every release has a clear Open, Middle, and End so it feels like I'm playing "an episode" instead of a continuous story that get cut in the middle just because (most AVNs are like this)

So to add to your post, maybe Consistent Release would help devs on getting more eyes?

I don't know how many download you get for No Such Luck but maybe there are more eyes that haven't know about it yet perhaps

 

[Dessolos]

For example, camube keeps mentioning Deluca's Family, I'll never play it, because it is Sandbox. Or, maybe it isn't, but it's marked as so, so, I'll never get near it. My loss? Maybe, but how many others think like me?

it's no longer sandbox only . It use to have a sandbox mode ( full experience ) and one that was just free roam without mini games I personally don't consider free roam sandbox but that's on each player to decide for themself or not if free roam is sandbox or not to them. Since it came to steam it added a VN mode.

 

[camube]

Oooooh... OK. That I can get behind. Not that I am a big fan of them, but I can get over it, no problemo.

Just a suggestion, maybe put that on the Dev Notes or in the Genre Spoiler. Like this Sandbox (freeroams only). Because like me there's a LOT of other players that will stay away because of it.

In that case it is even eligible to the VN prefix, or it should be for some reasonable staffers.

There's also a risk with the Sandbox fans dissing your game because it is not what they want.

For example, camube keeps mentioning Deluca's Family, I'll never play it, because it is Sandbox. Or, maybe it isn't, but it's marked as so, so, I'll never get near it. My loss? Maybe, but how many others think like me?

Unclear or Obfuscated details are NOT a good way to showcase a game.

Peace

Deluca Family has VN-esque mode. I don't remember what it's called though.

It also by now, pretty recently, has codex talking about the history of the families in the past prior to the game beginning. The codex are pretty fleshed out.

It's good! It's one of the best game on this site.
You gotta try it, at least try theVN-esque mode. I would say you probably still feel it's sorta clunky but, if you can navigate No Such Luck, you can navigate Deluca.

It has a colorful cast of side characters too.

Deluca's events all have titles / names. and the one called Arrendersi is soo good I would be happy talking about it with y'all here all day. It's been a year+ maybe since I play it but it's still fresh in my mind due to how good that event is.

What's great about Deluca is that what's already out in itself is good, but what's coming ahead should hopefully far better. Cuz at the moment things barely just start moving. It hasn't "begun". But it already shows some very small sign of it being epic in the future.

I'm looking forward to play Deluca in 2027 or somewhere there when one of the character Luna would face off with some entity. Or Gracie would face off with someone else. Deluca the game is like a hatchling right now. It's "barely started". And we fans are all looking forward how things are gonna roll in Season 2

 

[365 others]

Projekt Passion is great with extremely consistent release and also, every release has a clear Open, Middle, and End so it feels like I'm playing "an episode" instead of a continuous story that get cut in the middle just because (most AVNs are like this)

I'm 100% with you on this. That is something I love from Projekt Passion. Even if there are still untied knots, It does not leave me with the impression of just being dropped mid scene.

That sadly happens very frequently, and is one of the reasons I tend to read only completed games or the ones with a ton of content. I hate the eerie feeling of not knowing if the vn is just going to leave me in the middle of nowhere.

 

[FatGiant]

Deluca Family has VN-esque mode. I don't remember what it's called though.

It also by now, pretty recently, has codex talking about the history of the families in the past prior to the game beginning. The codex are pretty fleshed out.

It's good! It's one of the best game on this site.
You gotta try it, at least try theVN-esque mode. I would say you probably still feel it's sorta clunky but, if you can navigate No Such Luck, you can navigate Deluca.

It has a colorful cast of side characters too.

Deluca's events all have titles / names. and the one called Arrendersi is soo good I would be happy talking about it with y'all here all day. It's been a year+ maybe since I play it but it's still fresh in my mind due to how good that event is.

What's great about Deluca is that what's already out in itself is good, but what's coming ahead should hopefully far better. Cuz at the moment things barely just start moving. It hasn't "begun". But it already shows some very small sign of it being epic in the future.

I'm looking forward to play Deluca in 2027 or somewhere there when one of the character Luna would face off with some entity. Or Gracie would face off with someone else. Deluca the game is like a hatchling right now. It's "barely started". And we fans are all looking forward how things are gonna roll in Season 2

So, a fake VN mode. Thanks, but no, thanks.

I can, with some effort, accept a few free roams. But, mini games? Event based? No! I do play Badik, without the mini games and just the free roams are the bane of my existence. Truly NOT for me. Are the Events even canon? As in the story is changed by it's result, or, it's just a closed Event? Like a trip to Vegas?

Anyway, I'll think about it, but, probably not.

Peace

 

[Cskin Games]

Oooooh... OK. That I can get behind. Not that I am a big fan of them, but I can get over it, no problemo.

Just a suggestion, maybe put that on the Dev Notes or in the Genre Spoiler. Like this Sandbox (freeroams only). Because like me there's a LOT of other players that will stay away because of it.

In that case it is even eligible to the VN prefix, or it should be for some reasonable staffers.

There's also a risk with the Sandbox fans dissing your game because it is not what they want.

For example, camube keeps mentioning Deluca's Family, I'll never play it, because it is Sandbox. Or, maybe it isn't, but it's marked as so, so, I'll never get near it. My loss? Maybe, but how many others think like me?

Unclear or Obfuscated details are NOT a good way to showcase a game.

Peace

In fairness, I have 0 control over the thread (Nor do I want it). The most I can do is create reports and hope a mod decides to respond to them (sometimes they do, sometimes they don't) - and then hope they agree with them enough to do what I ask. The honest truth is, I get almost 0 support from this site (Literally every single f95 based patron I've ever had, posts regularly in this thread and almost all of it comes from elsewhere. Discord, reddit, people finding my stuff on steam or itch.io, etc, even twitter) so I really am not going to invest energy into fighting with mods in the hope that my thread is "most appealing" or whatever. I won't try to stop people here from playing my games, but aside from bug fixes, I'm not really gonna care about supporting it either.

Projekt Passion is great with extremely consistent release and also, every release has a clear Open, Middle, and End so it feels like I'm playing "an episode" instead of a continuous story that get cut in the middle just because (most AVNs are like this)

The thing is - PP's initial support? Wasn't because of it's story. I'm not saying it has a BAD story - I'm just saying that is NOT why people checked it out. And a lot of the "discovery" you talk about? A lot of it comes from people playing games, and then talking about them. (Seriously. Discussions on forums like this, or reddit, or discord are a HUGE driver of people checking out games to begin with) - and while people may have played PP and enjoyed the story - that's not why they tried it in the first place.

 

[Dessolos]

So, a fake VN mode. Thanks, but no, thanks.

I can, with some effort, accept a few free roams. But, mini games? Event based? No! I do play Badik, without the mini games and just the free roams are the bane of my existence. Truly NOT for me. Are the Events even canon? As in the story is changed by it's result, or, it's just a closed Event? Like a trip to Vegas?

Anyway, I'll think about it, but, probably not.

Peace

not sure how VN mode plays as I refuse to replay it till S2 starts as the cliffhanger ending as I could not stop think about it for like a week or 2 even lost some sleep over it. But when I played the free roam mode when I first discovered the game the mini games were disabled so I would assume same would apply here. I always took the events more or less just a way to track your progress in free roam mode not sure how it is in VN mode. Not trying to convince you to try it just wanted share that bit of info if it was the mini games turning you away from even giving VN mode a chance. If not then np it's just not for you

 

[365 others]

In fairness, I have 0 control over the thread (Nor do I want it). The most I can do is create reports and hope a mod decides to respond to them (sometimes they do, sometimes they don't) - and then hope they agree with them enough to do what I ask. The honest truth is, I get almost 0 support from this site (Literally every single f95 based patron I've ever had, posts regularly in this thread and almost all of it comes from elsewhere. Discord, reddit, people finding my stuff on steam or itch.io, etc, even twitter) so I really am not going to invest energy into fighting with mods in the hope that my thread is "most appealing" or whatever. I won't try to stop people here from playing my games, but aside from bug fixes, I'm not really gonna care about supporting it either.

The thing is - PP's initial support? Wasn't because of it's story. I'm not saying it has a BAD story - I'm just saying that is NOT why people checked it out. And a lot of the "discovery" you talk about? A lot of it comes from people playing games, and then talking about them. (Seriously. Discussions on forums like this, or reddit, or discord are a HUGE driver of people checking out games to begin with) - and while people may have played PP and enjoyed the story - that's not why they tried it in the first place.

I'm not saying that F95 has a major weight in getting game support, but I wouldn't rule it out that quickly. In my case, all the games I've discovered and the developers I'm currently supporting I've found them here.

The only game I discovered outside of F95 was the infamous "The College" and I stopped playing it a long time ago.

As for PP, I found it here, and after playing it because of the story recommendation, I did end up subscribing because of it.

 

[Cskin Games]

I'm not saying that F95 has a major weight in getting game support, but I wouldn't rule it out that quickly. In my case, all the games I've discovered and the developers I'm currently supporting I've found them here.

The only game I discovered outside of F95 was the infamous "The College" and I stopped playing it a long time ago.

As for PP, I found it here, and after playing it because of the story recommendation, I did end up subscribing because of it.

I'm ruling it out based on experience. Support from f95 is significantly less than 10% of the overall support I've received over the course of 2 games. It's not worth the headache of making sure people who play games for free have a good experience. That's just the blunt truth. I don't mind discussions - and occasionally someone here finds a bug or 2 which I always fix asap - but aside from that, it's not worth my time.

 

[365 others]

I'm ruling it out based on experience. Support from f95 is significantly less than 10% of the overall support I've received over the course of 2 games. It's not worth the headache of making sure people who play games for free have a good experience. That's just the blunt truth. I don't mind discussions - and occasionally someone here finds a bug or 2 which I always fix asap - but aside from that, it's not worth my time.

I hope I don't come as rude, or disrespectful... but if it's that bad... why are you here? This is a pirate site, and as per your own words it would seem it is more of an annoyance for you than something you can benefit from it. Why invest your energy and time in it?

I'm not trying to argue or to dismiss your view, I'm no developer after all, but If I'm honest I'm curious about how and why developers would chose to have an active role (regardless of how much active) in a site that leeches from their work.

 

[Cskin Games]

I hope I don't come as rude, or disrespectful... but if it's that bad... why are you here? This is a pirate site, and as per your own words it would seem it is more of an annoyance for you than something you can benefit from it. Why invest your energy and time in it?

I'm not trying to argue or to dismiss your view, I'm no developer after all, but If I'm honest I'm curious about how and why developers would chose to have an active role (regardless of how much active) in a site that leeches from their work.

Because I enjoy the discussion - and this thread in particular. I don't post *too* much in it anymore (mostly because I just don't use this site as much as I used to), but I do read it fairly often either way. As far as my game threads go? Outside of responding to players occasionally (Again - I just enjoy the discussion tbh), I don't invest a single bit of energy or time into it at all. In fact, these days about 90% of my time on F95 is spent in this thread.

 

[realjitter]

the way you portray me

I wasn't portraying you at all or thinking about someone specific for that matter. Sry if I made it sound like it.


And as to what makes AVN's popular. Well, the way I see it, there's just a shitton of competition, so many games. I'm not in the know, but how many newer games from , let's say, the last 24 months are there who did pop off in a big way and accumulated a lot of supporters?. I'm sure someone can name a game a two, but compared to how many new games are reaching the surface basically every week... I don't know, you either get lucky and "hit the nerve" of many people somehow or you get unlucky and "go broke" with an (subjectively) pretty good game. There are just too many random factors that can play a role here, imo.

I also assume that the majority of AVN players are not exactly hardcore fans like many people in this forum. So the time those people actually spent with those games might not be very high. Worst case scenario, for a developer, would be someone who just uses AVN's to quickly rub one out . And I don't know, that might be more people than you'd think...

But again, idk, i'm just assuming. Maybe it's the exact opposite and the majoriy spends "X+" hours every day with this stuff.

 

[dreamchaser]

I just played "A Father's Sins" based on it being recommended in the games list in the 1. post. I have aborted after a few hours and feel like I wasted my time.
Yes, it's "story first", I just don't think the story is very good, or the characters very interesting (though shoutout to the barrista - she was a standout for me). The world building was pretty cliche driven, and very thin. And the characters didn't seem internally consistent to me, instead just acting by rule of cool, what would be funniest, or most melodramatic each moment. The random horniness of the MC was offputting too, mostly because it was so inconsistent (like the "Do I want to waste my mana on a spell to make her clothes transperent?" choices. wtf...).

It just never felt like an internally consistent story (and characters!) pulling me in, which is what I thought this thread is looking for.
So, just thought I'd voice my disrecommendation here.

 

[365 others]

I just played "A Father's Sins" based on it being recommended in the games list in the 1. post. I have aborted after a few hours and feel like I wasted my time.
Yes, it's "story first", I just don't think the story is very good, or the characters very interesting (though shoutout to the barrista - she was a standout for me). The world building was pretty cliche driven, and very thin. And the characters didn't seem internally consistent to me, instead just acting by rule of cool, what would be funniest, or most melodramatic each moment. The random horniness of the MC was offputting too, mostly because it was so inconsistent (like the "Do I want to waste my mana on a spell to make her clothes transperent?" choices. wtf...).

It just never felt like an internally consistent story (and characters!) pulling me in, which is what I thought this thread is looking for.
So, just thought I'd voice my disrecommendation here.

Thank you! I am on the edge of playing it or not, but there are a few things I'm not sure about:

- I played this dev's previous games and honestly, the whole romance/seduction thing was... loose... at best. Is the main story the same way he wrote on his other games?
- Noted a lot of criticism on his thread for not having sex scenes, and then he made an alternate story (like a what if?) with basically pure porn content, is there finally anything lewd in his main story (A Father's Sins) or is it still just teasing?

 

[Deleted member 5467075]

[T]he Dev committed (IMO) a cardinal sin[:] he broke the readers trust ... by attempting to imply the death of a love interest[.]

I disagree with you that killing a love interest breaks a readers' trust. Particularly with a game like Intertwined that repeatedly attempts to make an emotional impact. Making you care about a character and then killing them is very powerful story-telling, and has been used over and over again in stories throughout history to make them memorable. Did the writers of Old Yeller commit a cardinal sin by shooting the dog? Of course not. That was great story-telling that would probably still make me cry today. Sure, a lot AVNs have a certain light-hearted tone to them where killing an LI would feel out of place and WOULD violate the readers' trust because you have to establish your story's tone early on. But Erynn's death in Intertwined, particularly since Nyx had already set up the dangerous stakes for her, would have fit the story. There's no rule just for AVN's that says you can't kill a love interest.

However, I do think that Nyx broke a promise to the readers by including that ending scene, and I think that was her lowest moment as a game dev, but for the opposite reason. She told us that Erynn had been seriously hurt, likely killed and created great emotional terror for us. Then at the beginning of the next episode we find out it was a big nothing, it was some girl that had nothing to do with anything. That was a failure of writing because now I really can't trust her if she makes any kind of promise like that again--it won't have the same emotional impact because I'll think, "Ah, she's just pulling my leg again."

At the same time, games with absolutely mediocre at best stories are topping the charts left and right - and it's because of how good the visuals in those games are.

If you look at the games that get talked about the most? (outside of this thread) They're almost always the best looking ones - because those are the ones being played the most.

What drives me nuts are games that are beautiful and/or sexy that get accolades for their writing simply because they are beautiful and/or sexy. I'm not naming any names but there are a lot of big games that would make that list.

 

[FatGiant]

Yes, I can see both arguments working about Intertwined.

After spending a long time grieving for Erynn, it just isn't her... and we even know nothing about who it was and why she died.

Yes, I agree that that was bad writing. In either side. Killing Erynn without a scene, or for a scene, just as a plot point, would have been really bad, like really BAD. Not only because (for me) she's the "story", but because it was too soon and too unexplained, so, it would be a futile gesture, a waste so to say.

I agree also, that the real problem wasn't the death of an LI, but how gratuitous it would be to do it that way. She's the MC's first love, for my MC only rivaled by her "possibly not sister turned roommate and maybe lover", so, for me the game would be over. For no reason, with no payday, with no resolution.

I've read countless books and movies and TV-shows with the death of a LI, the common denominator, they are meaningful. That one, that way, at that point, wouldn't be.

Peace

P.S.: Thanks for correcting my punctuation, I never had any formal teaching of English, learned it on my own, so, I make mistakes. Sorry and thanks.