Recommending Story-first games

[Raife]

I've decided to read a couple of reviews. Is the gratuitous sex scene a dream sequence? I hate, hate dream sex in these games. It's an insult to the player's patience and intelligence, and the playful pleasure of pursuing someone you're interested in. And for what? A few quick Patreon bucks?

It's actually even dumber that that... the MC has a random hookup with a stripper in the latest episode, presumably just to placate the mob. The moment of dream sex is annoying, but at least it fits the story... i.e. the gradual buildup of tension and longing between the MC and the main LI.

In fact, jufot, I see this game as an almost perfect example of a well-intentioned dev struggling against the marketplace. He's trying to throw every bone he can at the horde in order to maintain their support, while not compromising the central relationship drama of his game. It's not really working... the barbarians are still chasing him around for not jumping into sex with the primary LI. Sad.

 

[jufot]

In fact, jufot, I see this game as an almost perfect example of a well-intentioned dev struggling against the marketplace. He's trying to throw every bone he can at the horde in order to maintain their support, while not compromising the central relationship drama of his game. It's not really working... the barbarians are still chasing him around for not jumping into sex with the primary LI. Sad.

Ah, shame. At a minimum, you've convinced me to give it a try, but what if I end up liking it? Supporting him on Patreon would be the right thing, but I also don't want to incentivize gratuitous sex scenes :/

 

[jufot]

I have another game recommendation: Not a Girl's Name

It's about this guy Leslie (hence the title), and his chance encounter with a witty crackhead therapist girl named Frank (!) he meets at a coffee shop. Supporting cast includes Evan, Frank's kind-hearted but dumb roommate; Harmony, Frank's best friend and Leslie's former sister-in-law; and Trish, Leslie's lesbian ex-wife.

I found the game endearing, adorable and funny! The animations are not the best from a technical perspective, but the dev really paid attention to body language and facial expressions, so they feel great.

If anyone wants to give it a try, I have some more thoughts (and screenshots!) here, and I also strongly recommend the Music Mod, which fits really well with the game.

 

[Raife]

I have another game recommendation: Not a Girl's Name

Looks great... I'll try it... but OMG the new _Nothing is Forever_ update is out! This household says that must come first! (...once we finish watching _Bake Off_. I know, I know... we're very weird.)

 

[jufot]

the new _Nothing is Forever_ update is out!

I'm playing it right now!

...once we finish watching _Bake Off_. I know, I know... we're very weird.

My wife loves it too, while I pride myself in having never seen a full episode

 

[jufot]

The Last Enchantress also looks like it is going to be a nice one, despite the gruesome start and the owlbrows eyebrows (I'm kidding, Marguerite looks very cute).

I finally gave this a shot. On the upside, the game mechanics are very well implemented and there is a great deal of world building, with lots of branching storylines. Unfortunately, I had to abandon it due to excessive amounts of very graphic rape scenes. It's not mere depiction either - I might have tolerated that - the developer clearly revels in them. They are gratuitous and nauseating.

I'm sure someone with a less... visceral reaction to such scenes can enjoy this. I just couldn't :/

 

[Jaike]

I finally gave this a shot. On the upside, the game mechanics are very well implemented and there is a great deal of world building, with lots of branching storylines. Unfortunately, I had to abandon it due to excessive amounts of very graphic rape scenes. It's not mere depiction either - I might have tolerated that - the developer clearly revels in them. They are gratuitous and nauseating.

I'm sure someone with a less... visceral reaction to such scenes can enjoy this. I just couldn't :/

Ah, didn't really mean that as a general recommendation of the game, more as an example of the magical academy.

But yes, it has significantly more graphic rape than I remembered. Maybe I was was unduly impressed by the amount of agency in avoiding rape of the protagonist and by the option to prevent a classmate from being raped. Forced rape scenes where the victim ends up loving it are a very big peeve for me, so if that's avoided I could be too lenient. Aaaand I'm now feeling a bit awkward about my comment about the First Arcanist, cause the dev has a similar name so maybe it's intended as an avatar for her.

 

[jufot]

Maybe I was was unduly impressed by the amount of agency in avoiding rape of the protagonist and by the option to prevent a classmate from being raped.

Yes. From the bits that I've played, all sexual violence with the MC is so far avoidable. Well, kinda. There is one dream sequence where you could choose another character (an LI) to be assaulted instead of the MC. That doesn't make it any better for me.

Forced rape scenes where the victim ends up loving it are a very big peeve for me, so if that's avoided I could be too lenient.

There is at least one such scene, and the only way to avoid it is to ignore that entire quest line.

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You mean Marguerite? I haven't seen her since the fall of the Tower so I don't even know if she's alive. No idea what happens with her, if anything, if I were to play further.

 

[Tlaero]

The closest I could possibly get to having rape be in one of my games would be a backstory for one of the characters being raped in the past and the MC needing to be thoughtful and caring to help her heal. Like you, jufot, I would be completely turned off by actual rape scenes in a game.

This brings up an age old debate, though. Does playing games where you do bad things make you more likely to do bad things in real life, or do they let you scratch those itches in a place where no one gets hurt and thus makes you less likely to do bad things? This debate goes way back. People used to claim that Loony Tunes cartoons (Bugs Bunny, etc) made children violent.

I play a lot of first person shooters, and I've always argued that they don't make me more violent. But what about rape games? If I'm going to be internally consistent, I guess I have to think that there's nothing wrong with people playing them, even if I personally find them repugnant, and even if I apparently find rape to be worse than killing terrorists, aliens, and zombies.

But then I get messages from people who tell me that my games helped them in their relationships--that they learned to be more caring and supporting from my games. As heartwarming as that is for me to hear, and recognizing that the effect was probably small, it's an argument against my theory about violent games.

If someone can learn to be good by playing a good game, then can't someone learn to be bad by playing a bad game? If someone plays a game where they support someone going through a bad time and that makes them feel good inside, so they try to be more supportive in real life, who's to say that playing a bad game couldn't have a negative effect?

It's troubling, because I really don't have any intent to stop killing zombies with a spiky bat.

Tlaero

 

[jufot]

If someone can learn to be good by playing a good game, then can't someone learn to be bad by playing a bad game? If someone plays a game where they support someone going through a bad time and that makes them feel good inside, so they try to be more supportive in real life, who's to say that playing a bad game couldn't have a negative effect?

It's troubling, because I really don't have any intent to stop killing zombies with a spiky bat.

I think there is definitely room for nuance on this topic. The violence in first-person shooters tend to be against either nameless baddies, who you never meet or even learn the names of, or against exaggerated cartoon villains where moral qualms never enter the picture. Also, this kind of violence is usually not very graphic. You shoot a baddy, maybe see some blood spatter, and they despawn two seconds later, never to be seen again. It's not torture porn. Like most, I don't believe this kind of violence creates real-life murderers.

Sexual violence tends to be very different. It's a much more intimate violation and is almost always perpetuated against named, known characters that the audience cares about. Worse, people who create these scenes do so for titillation, not depiction, let alone condemnation. They don't even try to hide it. They get off on the violation - dehumanization of the victim is the whole point.

At a minimum, these games desensitize impressionable youth to the horrors of rape. Incel communities online are full of such young men. That already counts as "learning to be bad by playing a bad game" in my book. It's also very rare that rape is the first sexual crime of a rapist. It wouldn't be a stretch to draw a path from normalized sexual violence in games, to fringe communities like incels, to actual sex crimes.

 

[Nyravrod]

The closest I could possibly get to having rape be in one of my games would be a backstory for one of the characters being raped in the past and the MC needing to be thoughtful and caring to help her heal. Like you, jufot, I would be completely turned off by actual rape scenes in a game.

Same here I have a hard time with rape content in games and honestly even as a backstory it raises some flags for me as it needs to be handeled very very carefully and I think it is a difficult task especially in a game where the main focus will be on intimacy and a relationship.

This brings up an age old debate, though. Does playing games where you do bad things make you more likely to do bad things in real life, or do they let you scratch those itches in a place where no one gets hurt and thus makes you less likely to do bad things? This debate goes way back. People used to claim that Loony Tunes cartoons (Bugs Bunny, etc) made children violent.

If someone can learn to be good by playing a good game, then can't someone learn to be bad by playing a bad game? If someone plays a game where they support someone going through a bad time and that makes them feel good inside, so they try to be more supportive in real life, who's to say that playing a bad game couldn't have a negative effect?

I think you raise a very good question with this, what is the difference between someone taking in a positive learning experience through a game and the impact of violent games could have. I think the largest difference comes from the perspective and the character you empathise with.

In the case of most stories where people learn positively from you are playing from the perspective of the caring protagonist, you are empathising with that protagonist and therefore are able to reason about the world through their lense. Taking in a learning experience by being confronted with this perspective and thought process. In the case of most violent video games the perspective is there but I would argue that there is little empathy with the actions of the character, you are not killing enemies because you are empathising with any thought process of a character, mostly just as an action release and part of the gameplay.

This is where I would argue that the risk with rape and sexual abuse in games is higher, the nature of the game and story focus forces a higher level of empathy with the character and therefore might be more prone to having negative effects on the mindset of people (mostly unconsiously but still)

Anyway this is my rambling thougts on a complex topic so take it as it is, just some interesting thinking between like minded people ^^

 

[Nyravrod]

I think there is definitely room for nuance on this topic. The violence in first-person shooters tend to be against either nameless baddies, who you never meet or even learn the names of, or against exaggerated cartoon villains where moral qualms never enter the picture. Also, this kind of violence is usually not very graphic. You shoot a baddy, maybe see some blood spatter, and they despawn two seconds later, never to be seen again. It's not torture porn. Like most, I don't believe this kind of violence creates real-life murderers.

Sexual violence tends to be very different. It's a much more intimate violation and is almost always perpetuated against named, known characters that the audience cares about. Worse, people who create these scenes do so for titillation, not depiction, let alone condemnation. They don't even try to hide it. They get off on the violation - dehumanization of the victim is the whole point.

At a minimum, these games desensitize impressionable youth to the horrors of rape. Incel communities online are full of such young men. That already counts as "learning to be bad by playing a bad game" in my book. It's also very rare that rape is the first sexual crime of a rapist. It wouldn't be a stretch to draw a path from normalized sexual violence in games, to fringe communities like incels, to actual sex crimes.

And as I post my reply here is Jufot with a remarkably similar thought process, I am starting to think there are clones of people hanging around here

In all seriousness I agree with you here, the focus is the difference and the path to a rationalisation and dehumanisation of people is the big risk with games that embark in such naratives.

 

[Raife]

The closest I could possibly get to having rape be in one of my games would be a backstory for one of the characters being raped in the past and the MC needing to be thoughtful and caring to help her heal. Like you, jufot, I would be completely turned off by actual rape scenes in a game.

I agree 100%: non-consensual situations are an absolute turnoff... unless they are handled non-gratuitously and sensitively in the manner you suggest: i.e. in order to understand a character's past experiences and current behavior. (This is one of many reasons why I love _Hillside_.)

This brings up an age old debate, though.

If someone can learn to be good by playing a good game, then can't someone learn to be bad by playing a bad game? If someone plays a game where they support someone going through a bad time and that makes them feel good inside, so they try to be more supportive in real life, who's to say that playing a bad game couldn't have a negative effect?

Really thoughtful questions, Tlaero... it's no wonder that a key leitmotif in all of your games is empathy.

I believe that art induces a sort of 'resonance' -- in which the creator's intent produces a sort of emotional response from the reader/observer/watcher... a bit like a tuning fork for a musician. The resonance is not precise; as you well know, it might not even correspond with the artist's intent! Moreover, it requires a sort of sympathetic understanding and translation into the observer's range of emotion or experience: a viewer of a painting depicting a joyful scene, who has never experienced joy, will not feel joy.

This is a rather long way of saying that I don't think creative expressions depicting violence or rape creates violent psychos or rapists: you aren't going to start hacking away at people with a machete because of your affinity for zombie films. If the violence you're witnessing isn't resonating with you that way, it doesn't matter how many zombie games you play.

I do think that gratuitous depictions of violence or non-consent might resonate in a very scary way with a small number of people who are _already_ attracted to such acts... but I don't think those depictions made them that way or determine those actions. Rather, they are resonating with something in the observer that is already twisted.

Your games, on the other hand, show representations of strength, resilience and overcoming trauma. Virtually all people who live long enough will have very negative experiences at some point; thus, your games resonate with many hurting people. I don't think your stories make these people 'better' per se, rather, they resonate in a manner that reminds some of your players who they are: that they can be strong, and resilient, and beautiful.

Does that make sense?

Now I'm going to sound really soppy: but I love your games for the same reason I love this thread. Because, even in the wretched den of scum and villany that is F95, people like you and jufot are there to be found. And that is an encouraging thought...

 

[Nyravrod]

I agree 100%: non-consensual situations are an absolute turnoff... unless they are handled non-gratuitously and sensitively in the manner you suggest: i.e. in order to understand a character's past experiences and current behavior. (This is one of many reasons why I love _Hillside_.)

Your games, on the other hand, show representations of strength, resilience and overcoming trauma. Virtually all people who live long enough will have very negative experiences at some point; thus, your games resonate with these people. I don't think your stories make these people 'better' per se, rather, they resonate in a manner that reminds some of your players who they are: that they can be strong, and resilient, and beautiful.

Yes games approaching tough topics with empathy and a great narrative have the potential to resonate strongly and there has been many example of those within games in this thread, especially from Tlaero

This is a rather long way of saying that I don't think creative expressions depicting violence or rape creates violent psychos or rapists: you aren't going to start hacking away at people with a machete because of your affinity for zombie films. If the violence you're witnessing isn't resonating with you that way, it doesn't matter how many zombie games you play.

I do think that gratuitous depictions of violence or non-consent might resonate in a very scary way with a small number of people who are _already_ attracted to such acts... but I don't think those depictions made them that way or determine those actions. Rather, they are resonating with something in the observer that is already twisted.

While I agree mostly with this take, I think when you talk about sexual violence in games it does run the risk of desensitisation and dehumanisation, it will not turn you into a twisted person but repeated exposure to it might make someone, especially if young and impressionable, more accustomed to the violence and less revulsed by it. Which as Jufot mention can be the first step in a ladder of violence. Hence why I still think those depictions can be harmfull.

I would also argue that even "positive" narratives can be harmfull in that if handled carelessely or even just without the correct amount of tact and effort, they can trivialise trauma and create an unrealistic perspective on recovery for abuse survivors. And example of this is a game I saw many times praised in various threads in this site "Avalon". Yet I had to get back to it several times to be able to play through as I had to stop each time because of how trivialised and simplified the journey through traume felt.

Now I'm going to sound really soppy: but I love your games for the same reason I love this thread. Because, even in the wretched den of scum and villany that is F95, people like you and jufot are there to be found. And that is an encouraging thought...

Yes 100% yes, I love this thread and all of you for those thoughtfull discussions and the ability to share and discover all together beautifull stories

 

[mr.AwesomeGameTaste]

So,I want to quickly come out and say I completely disagree with any notion that portraying rape in games is a bad thing. In the same way I don't agree games and movies about violence can make someone violent. I think that the only instance where a person would play a game about rape and then rape someone,would be when that person was ready to turn those fantasies to reality before. I would be able to believe that a very young person could be influenced by seeing such a game,but not to an extent where he'd rape someone,and i am talking about like 10 yo,doubt many of them are here,they are only starting going through puberty. If we were to measure irl behavior by the games people play,90% of people here would be fucking their moms and sisters. We all know how popular incest is. Rape and graphic violence are often needed to add to reality. I am a big fan of mafia themed games and a game with that theme without those things would be completely pointless. Now this thread is about story focused games,and I like those the most (im here after all),but they are still sex games to some extent. I don't see anything bad about indulging in some fringe kinks since vanilla sex just gets boring at some point,both irl and seeing it in games. I really think we should refrain from judging something done to a bunch of pixels too harshly.

 

[Raife]

At a minimum, these games desensitize impressionable youth to the horrors of rape. Incel communities online are full of such young men. That already counts as "learning to be bad by playing a bad game" in my book. It's also very rare that rape is the first sexual crime of a rapist. It wouldn't be a stretch to draw a path from normalized sexual violence in games, to fringe communities like incels, to actual sex crimes.

I agree with you... or 99% agree. I don't think violent games or non-consent fetishistic games 'create' those traits in otherwise healthy adults, for the reasons I tried to describe above. You aren't going to go psycho because you played _The Last Enchantress_, jufot.

But... children -- whose personalities are still forming -- or already damaged or twisted people... like those incel communities who are a baleful presence on this site ... can resonate in quite horrible ways with games that depict those acts. The behaviour of some of those people, online, can then reinforce their convictions in rather terrible ways:

jufot recently had to explain to someone that depicting sex between a MC and a completely drunk woman was, in fact, rape. Unbelievable... except that exchange actually happened in the 21st century!

 

[Nyravrod]

So,I want to quickly come out and say I completely disagree with any notion that portraying rape in games is a bad thing. In the same way I don't agree games and movies about violence can make someone violent. I think that the only instance where a person would play a game about rape and then rape someone,would be when that person was ready to turn those fantasies to reality before.

If you go back trough the takes as we discuss this I dont think anyone argued that it would make someone into a rapist, however I dont think the desensitisation aspect of such content can be understated.
If you think only young kids can be desensitised to content, have a look at how a puritanism society and decades of evolution of movie content has turned the US into a place where graphic violence is not even questioned on TV but the appearance of a Tit causes a massive uproar and that should give you an idea of how malleable the human psyche can be.

Rape and graphic violence are often needed to add to reality. I am a big fan of mafia themed games and a game with that theme without those things would be completely pointless.

There is always alternatives to keep a storyline heavy without having to resort to including graphic scenes, do you really need a visual depiction of a Rape to make the poignant plot point you need or would a more thoughtfull approach such as a Character breaking down and sharing that painfull experience with a trusted friend serve a similar purpose without needing to revel in the violence ?

Anyway this is just an opinion and as you said we are just talking about pixels, but I believe that pixels or ink, stories are powerfull tools and if we can use them positively why not do so ?

 

[moskyx]

Paraphrasing a very minor character in a Tlaero's game: "Your honor, I'm confident that we as a society are beyond the days of believing that rock and roll is 'the Devil's music,' and that it is responsible for people's misbehaviors. Even if not, in an hour I'll have five precedents in case law that would each lead us to a 'not guilty' verdict. I move that we end this now."

So, yeah. It's like CSI. Most viewers watch it only for its entertaining value, some of them get interesed in criminal investigations and maybe one or two people take notes to try and commit the perfect crime. I can't stand shooters or violence themed games, as I can't stand incest, loli or explicit rapes in H-games, and yet I can't really believe any of those has any actual impact on real life perpetrators. And even if they had, those cases are probably so few that can be statistically dismissed - of course, this doesn't mitigate the pain for those victims, but these content doesn't actually change anything in the great scheme of things, as crime, murder and rape exist since the origins of mankind and can be found in any other social animals. I think in 2022 we all are way aware of the limits between fiction and reality; and of course we can get positive inputs from media and recognize them as something good that we could try in real life, but I don't think the opposite works in the same way. That's called socialization.

 

[mr.AwesomeGameTaste]

If you go back trough the takes as we discuss this I dont think anyone argued that it would make someone into a rapist, however I dont think the desensitisation aspect of such content can be understated.
If you think only young kids can be desensitised to content, have a look at how a puritanism society and decades of evolution of movie content has turned the US into a place where graphic violence is not even questioned on TV but the appearance of a Tit causes a massive uproar and that should give you an idea of how malleable the human psyche can be.



There is always alternatives to keep a storyline heavy without having to resort to including graphic scenes, do you really need a visual depiction of a Rape to make the poignant plot point you need or would a more thoughtfull approach such as a Character breaking down and sharing that painfull experience with a trusted friend serve a similar purpose without needing to revel in the violence ?

Anyway this is just an opinion and as you said we are just talking about pixels, but I believe that pixels or ink, stories are powerfull tools and if we can use them positively why not do so ?

I agree with your point that graphic violence is much more common in society and everyone is fine with it,while erotic content is a big no-no,but still,the acceptance of rape among adults is just something I'm not willing to take seriously,unless a whole society is set to normalize it and perpetuate it,along with the media and customs. There is an island called by the press the rape island where rape occurs very often,and that is problematic,don't think porn games would be a cause of this,especially not in a developed society. I also want to point out that i never claimed any of you said or think that games cause rape or make someone a rapist,i was only presenting my opinion,comparing it to the common notion that shooters cause violence,I never said any of you think that way.
As for presenting the rape as a trauma that someone goes through and you help them,that can be wonderfully done and make for a great story. But if the story is about mafia,where I am a member of said mafia,why would I want that? I know it may be shocking for some people,but I like playing as a bad guy too. If the premise of the story is that you are a bad guy,taking the approach you talk about would be out of character. So no,it wouldn't serve a similar purpose.Sure,use the games to depict positive things,but evil and negativity is a part of life,and I don't think games about them are bad,or that they contribute negatively to most people's lives.
Also,I want to clarify that I don't mean to pick up a fight with my comment,nor do i approve of portraying rape as something cool. I like to play as a bad guy but I know it is bad,and im bad in that game.

 

[Nyravrod]

I agree with your point that graphic violence is much more common in society and everyone is fine with it,while erotic content is a big no-no,but still,the acceptance of rape among adults is just something I'm not willing to take seriously,unless a whole society is set to normalize it and perpetuate it,along with the media and customs.

I don't know where the concept of acceptance of Rape among adults comes from, I don't think anyone raised that point or was trying to make it.
There are nuances in everything and the concept of normalisation is very real and doesn't need to be widespread to affect individuals.The point I was making was that content that revel in sexual violence runs the risk to normalise and therefore desensitise individuals that would be exposed to it repeatidly (example: younger audiences searching for games on this website).

Sure,use the games to depict positive things,but evil and negativity is a part of life,and I don't think games about them are bad,or that they contribute negatively to most people's lives.

There are many nuances in how a story is told you don't have to have it all be positive to cover dark and negative topics, as you say it is part of life and will be part of many stories but there is a wold of difference between it being part of a narrative and having it being rationalised and played through the perspective of the main character. I don't know many mediums where that is done, for example there are many movies about horrific things but you rarely have a movie about such things done from the perspective of the perpetrator and where the audience is asked to associates with that POV.

I am not judging anyone for liking or playing such games and I hope that is not how I come accross, if that is what you like to play that is just fine.
I am just raising my opinion and giving my perspective on a question Tlaero was raising about such topics.
I do believe that it would be careless to dismiss the impact on normalising behaviour that such games can have, the same way any story in any medium can have. It just so happens that we are on a website about adult games where a vast array of people access those stories and that as a relatively new medium I don't think that topic is often discussed.

Then again it's just one persons opinion vs another one, there is no harm in disagreeing so no worries