Recommending Story-first games

[MrPocketRocket]

I love Scrubs. Have friends who worked on it. That's probably where, as you know, I stop agreeing;-)
Cheers!

 

[Deleted member 2577953]

I absolutely loved the different recollections Daniel and Amy have of their first day at school. Different facts, outfits, personalities and interactions. Daniel remembers Brandon and Samantha as assholes because he's already prejudiced against them, and he remembers Amy as a gorgeous girl with flowing hair. In her memories, though, Brandon and Samantha are sweet, and Amy just looks like a mousy girl wearing overalls. Such lovely contrast!

That was probably my most favorite part of this update.

Also, fully agree that it would have been much better if Amy's Fiance wasn't the typical villain.

But, man oh man, Becca's route... it was perfect in every way (At least for me.)

While, both routes are following a somewhat conventional trajectory, the meticulous care with which the art and writing is handled makes the whole game feel so... mesmerizing.

Nothing about the VN feels like it was made "easily". The devs worked really hard and it shows.

In short, loved SoP when I first played it a year ago, and I love it even more now.

 

[Zeruhhh]

Just like to chime in my .2, quite honestly Strangers on Paper and honorary mention Corporate Culture are the only two visual novels I’ve ever played where I walked away with a strong sense that the devs had a familiarity with creative writing. If I’m wrong, then even more props to you, devs. It was truly a pleasure to play the masterpiece that is Chapter 2 of SOP.

 

[jufot]

Nothing about the VN feels like it was made "easily". The devs worked really hard and it shows.

In short, loved SoP when I first played it a year ago, and I love it even more now.

Unsurprisingly, I agree completely

 

[The Analist]

My Biggest disappointments (really really good AVNs that went totally south):
- City of Broken Dreamers, Hillside and MIST because the stories went totally south after a while (CoBD after Henry dies; Hillside after Zak is killed; MIST after MC and the girls run away and leave their house); Hillside will never be completed, anyway
- Summer Scent because it will NEVER be completed and the Author is definitely stuck with the story
- Estate: Dominate because it's abandoned even though its scammer dev claims he's still working on it (yeah, whatever).

If you guys dropped COBD after chapter 5, I wouldn't recommend giving it another try. Things go clearly downwards from Chapter 8 on, at least in terms of writing. So if you weren't hooked before that point, I'd say don't bother with it. To me, it works as a nice and intriguing game with an open ending at the end of Chapter 7 -or Book 1 for Steam players.

Thanks for writing that. I thought I was getting pickier over time—well, I am—, but at least I feel better knowing I'm not the only one who thinks CoBD derailed. I don't remember which chapter number was, but I started to lose interest right after they ran away with the girl with special powers (I even forgot her name), and the MC finally hooks up her (and there was a scene with a giant robot attacking them). After that, it indeed becomes a fuckfest with no plot. I even stopped following, but when I saw it was complete, out of curiosity, I decided to check how it went (down). I could barely read it and pressed control, like, 99% of the time. If there are alternative ends, I don't even care to check them.

Ataegina was another game the same happened: amazing part 1, meaningless part 2 and finale. Tales from the Unending Void seems to be following the same path. And Lust Academy never had a brilliant story in the first place, but now it's even worse. I wish developers knew when to stop...

I didn't play the other games Ottoeight mentioned as disappointments except for MIST. I agree that after they leave the house it's not as good as before, but I don't think it's comparable to CoBD or Ategina. At least, in MIST's case, it was almost in the end. Also, MIST was more like a game, so, at least you had things to do. Overall, I think it was a great game and probably in my Top 10 (or even 5) of all time.

 

[365 others]

Thanks for writing that. I thought I was getting pickier over time—well, I am—, but at least I feel better knowing I'm not the only one who thinks CoBD derailed. I don't remember which chapter number was, but I started to lose interest right after they ran away with the girl with special powers (I even forgot her name), and the MC finally hooks up her (and there was a scene with a giant robot attacking them). After that, it indeed becomes a fuckfest with no plot. I even stopped following, but when I saw it was complete, out of curiosity, I decided to check how it went (down). I could barely read it and pressed control, like, 99% of the time. If there are alternative ends, I don't even care to check them.

Ataegina was another game the same happened: amazing part 1, meaningless part 2 and finale. Tales from the Unending Void seems to be following the same path. And Lust Academy never had a brilliant story in the first place, but now it's even worse. I wish developers knew when to stop...

I didn't play the other games Ottoeight mentioned as disappointments except for MIST. I agree that after they leave the house it's not as good as before, but I don't think it's comparable to CoBD or Ategina. At least, in MIST's case, it was almost in the end. Also, MIST was more like a game, so, at least you had things to do. Overall, I think it was a great game and probably in my Top 10 (or even 5) of all time.

I stopped playing COBD at the exact same spot you mentioned. I think now that I better leave it for a case of extreme boringness and having nothing to do.

As per Ataegina, I sadly have to agree with you. I loved season 1, but season 2 started derailing quite fast. While I did play it until the end, I noted things starting to go south since the option of Mida going to Bredita's hideout with the MC, and allowing them to enter an advanced corruption stage for her.

It completely contradicted the story path I had until then with her, and as it progressed the story made less and less sense, so I had to go back and leave her out to avoid it. It still had plenty of other choices that had contradictory consequences and paths, but at least not as dissonant as with Mida.

MIST is still one of my top 5, as it is the first one that I played with that graphic art style (I wasn't very interested in it, tbh) and it changed completely my vision just because of the storytelling. I agree that the ending was a bit loose for my liking, but I'm glad the dev decided to finish it right there while it still had an impact and the story made sense instead of trying to extend it and derail it.

I know he has another game in development, that I haven't yet played (The Covenant of Morn or something?). Have you played it? It's been out there for a while now, but I don't know how much content is there and if it's at least as good as its predecessor.

 

[The Analist]

I know he has another game in development, that I haven't yet played (The Covenant of Morn or something?). Have you played it? It's been out there for a while now, but I don't know how much content is there and if it's at least as good as its predecessor.

Yes! I've seen it, but I didn't have time to try it yet. Seems good, though!

 

[jufot]

The writer behind the well-liked VN, The Artist, has decided to publish a post-mortem of the game after the developer disappeared.

If you were interested in the game, I strongly recommend

You must be registered to see the links

. It has the entire act 2, and the various endings in act 3. It seems I was wrong in most of my theories, but I'm glad to be proven wrong, as what we have here is much smarter and more gripping than what I've had imagined

 

[Hildegardt]

The writer behind the well-liked VN, The Artist, has decided to publish a post-mortem of the game after the developer disappeared.

If you were interested in the game, I strongly recommend

You must be registered to see the links

. It has the entire act 2, and the various endings in act 3. It seems I was wrong in most of my theories, but I'm glad to be proven wrong, as what we have here is much smarter and more gripping than what I've had imagined

Idk, I think I would've been a little disappointed. The "it's all in their head" trope can be fun, because of the speculations about what's real and what isn't and what were the coincidences that lead us astray. In the end it's still a trope that's pretty eye-roll inducing though, especially if the big reveal is that literally nothing was real.

I don't think the whole puking business would've been an effective red herring at all. It would've been silly af honestly. I mean, obviously the MC is unwell. Don't need the puke to see that. But what I can't see are the dots I'm supposed to connect, when the sister starts puking, too. And then it turns out that puking = pregnant, because of course it is, which means the eye-roll toll for this story is now at two.
I'm not sold on the major conflict at all. I think it would've been very very difficult to make the players care about Rowan's relationship with the sister. The fact that it was supposed to reduce the MC to tears would've raised a lot of eyebrows imo.
Edith would've been a more effective red herring, but it looks like she wouldn't have played a major role at all, which is disappointing to say the least. It looks like there's only one additional very short scene with her. I don't see how she was supposed to have made a big enough impression to calm the MC down with her mere presence, when his world gets turned upside down during the big reveal. I don't know why and how she's even there at the hospital as soon as the MC wakes up and who contacted her. They talked like three times before this scene.

And then there's this:

The player is told he has been unconscious for three days. The player in turn questions why Ava is not present. Rowan says that before he completely lost consciousness, he was tasked with finding her...and now he knows exactly what is going on.

I can't picture in my head how this was supposed to work out at all and I think it's a massive problem that the plan for the story didn't go beyond "Rowan brought proof". This seems like a major case of all the important stuff happening off screen, a trope we all know and love and eye-roll number three.
But also, with how the story is structured, I don't see how any proof could've ever been satisfying instead of "duh". Apparently there's a real Ava that shows up, but only in one of the endings. I'm guessing part of Rowan's proof would've involved him figuring out, where the MC came across real Ava. Doesn't seem like she has any plot relevance though (she should've been young Edith imo..., but even not having two Avas in one scene seems like a missed opportunity).

I also have a hard time with this part of the summary of chapter seven, where they claim:

Here, the two get into conversations about art, that we'll actually use to speak about the themes of the game.

It's difficult for me to identify themes that make it through the whole game in a clear and concise manner, let alone the themes of the art presented in chapter seven. The summary seems to label it as "Modern Art". I guess it's vaguely modern, because of its quirkiness? It's like three pieces depicting what exactly? Eroticism? It doesn't actually get discussed as far as I can tell.
From the comments I'm gathering that there's supposed to be an underlying thing about Ava gaining control, which is why the art has a slight bondage touch I'm guessing. I wouldn't say that comes across as a major theme of the whole story at all though. In the end Ava doesn't actually have any agency or will she could force on the MC, because she's just a tumor.


Damn, I kinda feel bad about how harsh this comment is probably coming across. It's not like I even know how much the story would've changed or not, if it actually went into production. Apparently bothering to write a good story is like an invitation to get scrutinized real hard. But I actually wish this wasn't abandoned and there were more games like it instead of more games that aren't even worth discussing.

 

[jufot]

In the end it's still a trope that's pretty eye-roll inducing though, especially if the big reveal is that literally nothing was real.

It's not all in his head, though, is it? Edith is real, and that has always been a big part of the mystery. My theory was that Ava and Edith were both in it together to deceive him for unknown ends. But I think only one of them being real works better because it sows so much confusion, both for the characters and the player.

Edith would've been a more effective red herring, but it looks like she wouldn't have played a major role at all, which is disappointing to say the least. It looks like there's only one additional very short scene with her.

I assumed she would have a bigger role in act 3, it's just that we don't have the script for it. Without her, several of the planned endings don't work at all.

In the end Ava doesn't actually have any agency or will she could force on the MC, because she's just a tumor.

She is "just" a tumour, but I'd argue she has all the agency (and not the MC) because it's a character of his psyche, a personification of how he thinks women are, how they should be. He is creating her as he goes along to satisfy his whims, but note how she is the one making every single decision.

 

[Canto Forte]

The thing is, a number of guys who have had domestic abuse cases in courts with jurors got sentrenced because the jurors found something plausible of their ill relationship decorum when dealing with women.

Even so, they keep living in their heads that they did no wrong and that the people looking into their lives are the ones making the wrong assumptions.

MC is goaded about his barren life by his family and his friend - who seems to be just another sexual predator who used MC to bang and impregnate his sister and now everyone is ashamed and trying to keep the truth from MC.

MC is in extreme trauma no matter if Eve or Edith or anyone, really, is real or not. The people most important to his ill head are dismissing his whole existente - MC is nonexistent in their lives as he is only the disfunctional to the point they treat him like a mental person, a disabled person or fulll on basket case - you pick the right term for you.

The world of MC is not easy or being in any way shape or form in a good place with all these predators out to get him:
many of the good looking guys have droves of girls simply coming up to them out of the blue, so why not enjoy his minutes of fame being sought after by Eve and feeling appreciated, even courted?

Idk, I think I would've been a little disappointed. The "it's all in their head" trope can be fun

obviously the MC is unwell

MC is living in the sham, the ruse, the carefully designed embroiling clutches of a con man - remember the friend is with MC the whole time, manipulating MC and turning his doubts into reality and playing him every step of the way:
women paraded in front of many men to con them is a theme you can find movies about - where the puppeteers are actually men who scam the smitten guys who enjoy the women or the illusion of the women as their friends - the master minds - run their mind games taking everything from them - MC is left literally broken phisically and mind fucked to the absurd.

It's difficult for me to identify themes that make it through the whole game in a clear and concise manner,

This has been making interesting cinema for decades where total demolition of the antihero we followed along the way is the dessert.

Enjoy!

 

[Hildegardt]

It's not all in his head, though, is it? Edith is real, and that has always been a big part of the mystery.

I'm not sure about this. For Ava it was like "Why doesn't she eat/drink? Why are people ignoring her?" Edith never had this type of mystery about her.

My theory was that Ava and Edith were both in it together to deceive him for unknown ends. But I think only one of them being real works better because it sows so much confusion, both for the characters and the player.

I feel like it would've worked better, if Ava was actually entangled with other characters. Imagine the MC having a conversation about her with characters that actually know the real Ava, which apparently would've been a possibility according to one of the endings.
It's fun to have a case board with a lot of red threads crossing this way and that. It's disappointing to realize that you didn't even need a case board, because the suspect was completely unrelated to everyone else.

I assumed she would have a bigger role in act 3, it's just that we don't have the script for it. Without her, several of the planned endings don't work at all.

Why do you think so? From the summery it looks like she shows up in one of the endings as a potential rebound, but that seems to be it.

She is "just" a tumour, but I'd argue she has all the agency (and not the MC) because it's a character of his psyche, a personification of how he thinks women are, how they should be. He is creating her as he goes along to satisfy his whims, but note how she is the one making every single decision.

I don't think that's true at all. In the end she can just get scooped out of his head, which is entirely up to the players' choice.
It seems like there would have been some kind of "health" stat for the MC, so I'm guessing Ava could've tricked the MC into an unhealthy lifestyle throughout act 2 and ultimately disable the goodest ending. This maaaaybe shifts the agency away from the player a little, if you squint real hard, but lifestyle choices suddenly being a major game mechanic seems kinda out of left field honestly.
I also don't see how Ava is particularly satisfying the MC's whims. Isn't she teasing and denying him throughout the story? I think the art gallery being bondage themed was supposed to emphasize this. And in the end it's the MC who has to give up his life or his sanity to stay with her a little longer.

 

[jufot]

Why do you think so? From the summery it looks like she shows up in one of the endings as a potential rebound, but that seems to be it.

I assumed it wouldn't just be popping in at the hospital, but a larger series of scenes where Edith basically compares notes with MC's family and friend, to see where they all went wrong and missed the signs. Edith isn't just some rando from the speed dating thing. She's been to his place, they've had sex, they've had further contact. At some point, MC loses the thread and which of his memories are "Ava" and which are Edith is left vague - deliberately so, I imagine.

It seems like there would have been some kind of "health" stat for the MC, so I'm guessing Ava could've tricked the MC into an unhealthy lifestyle throughout act 2 and ultimately disable the goodest ending. This maaaaybe shifts the agency away from the player a little, if you squint real hard, but lifestyle choices suddenly being a major game mechanic seems kinda out of left field honestly.

I find the "mental health stat" more compelling than you, it seems. I also don't see any of the endings as good or bad, certainly not the "goodest". People have refused tumour resections for minor odds of personality changes, let alone the risk of losing a loved one, however imaginary. Ignorance truly is bliss for many, and getting rid of Ava is not an automatic good.

I also don't see how Ava is particularly satisfying the MC's whims. Isn't she teasing and denying him throughout the story?

Yes, and he likes it! From his conversation with the sister in act 2:

MC: “To tell you the truth, full cards on the table, she’s infuriating. She teases me, pulls the conversation around in random ways and I can’t seem to get a hold of her in so many ways, but…”

Sister: “But?”

MC: “She makes me feel alive. It’s the best way I can put it. ”

I think the art gallery being bondage themed was supposed to emphasize this.

Even there, it's all about his psyche and what he wants from a woman. He doesn't realize it, but he's shaping Ava into his fantasies:

I know this could say something about a woman’s plight or something, but really all I think about is the kind of woman who would pose like that for me…and how I would tie her up like that.

She never gives her opinion before he does, and once he says the above, she takes him to a backroom, poses like "that" and blows him.

 

[Deleted member 2577953]

View attachment 3970364

Simple Beginnings is one of my favourite AVNs, certainly near the top of the list. Chapter 6 is out, and it concludes the first season of the game. I absolutely loved this episode, so here are some disorganized thoughts:

Spoiler: Massive spoilers inside

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Started playing the VN a few days ago, after seeing the recommendation here.

It was a gripping experience to say the least, and I was thoroughly entertained by the way everything was handled in it.

(I also went in blind, without reading the synopsis or the tags, so imagine my surprise at the end of chapter 1 But I digress.)

The things I loved the most about the first season are:

1. It didn't try to spoonfeed the audience.

We're dropped into a story as it happens, and the more time we spend with the characters, we get hints of the kind of person they are (and what they could be up to), but... it never spells anything out loud.

2. It also does a great job of setting a clear tone of intrigue (and doom) at the start of the story and keeps it steady till the very end. (Not a lot of stories can do that.)

3. Coming to characters, the bond between Emma and Jenny was impeccable and shined in every single interaction of theirs. It was juvenile in the most believable way.

4.

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4. My second most favorite part of the VN was definitely the multiple parties involved in the overarching story with conflicting interests, but are not fully aware of the other players.

Those kind of dynamics are often ripe with potential, and so far, the dev has delivered on that front.

Perhaps the only two things I didn't like were (and it's totally a me thing):

Spoiler

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But, those are just nitpicks really.

In the end, I'm just glad I tried this VN, and am pretty excited for the future updates

 

[jufot]

I'm so glad you liked it Arisushi, I was hoping you would

I agree with most of your points. This is very much a show, don't tell game. There is rarely any exposition, and we just discover the world through character interactions over time. Always the sign of a competent writer, I think.

Jenny and Emma have exactly the right dose of sickeningly sweet teenage romance going on, with all the angst and unsaid feelings you'd expect. I'm all for it

4. My second most favorite part of the VN was definitely the multiple parties involved in the overarching story with conflicting interests, but are not fully aware of the other players.

Right. I liked how this latest chapter fleshed out the parties a bit, and it's good that none of them seem to be omnipotent or have the obvious upper hand.

I will disagree on two minor points, though.

I get that this is a dark story, but outside of the new swimming teacher, no one seemed to be a decent human being to me.

Don't let Bradford hear you! He's a good man weighed down by entirely too much pain, but he's a sensitive soul that cares about Jenny. He's just too distracted for her sake.

[On Jenny being too careless] Just to be very clear, I'm not saying she shouldn't be. But it was very frustrating to watch.

I don't know, I actually enjoy a stupid teenager protagonist being... well, stupid It gives the VN some verisimilitude.

 

[Raife]

I finally had some time for the second chapter of Strangers on Paper. It's been more than a year since I played the first one, so I started from the beginning. That was a good idea because I noticed a few things I missed the first time around...
_________________________

SOP is just amazeballs, jufot. Chapter 1 was pretty good; Chapter 2 is ten times better. It's almost an anti-porn game now, in that it depicts relationships and sexuality in a realistic way... which, as I remember very well, can make for an intensely painful, confusing experience for a character the MC's age.

First, on Becca --

Spoiler

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The bottom line is that she is an LI in an AVN who acts very, very much like an actual woman of character, depth, and deep emotion. Which is... an extreme danger to the MC, given the strength of his own feelings.

The thing this dev understands, which most miss, is that relationships IRL are a series of high-wire acts... and real intimacy involves taking serious risks... putting yourself on the line, as it were. The sex scene with this particular LI showed _all_ of that, which, as jufot rightly observes, makes it one of the best that I've seen in an AVN.

On Amy -- I'm far less enamored with her relative to Becca, mostly for the reasons that jufot mentioned... but she's still better realized than 99% of the LIs in AVNs. She suffers only by comparison with Becca. I loved her unreliability, different perspective, and tendency to be overly forgiving of old friends.

Does SOP have flaws? Sure. There are some grammatical mistakes, which are clunky when the characters in question are writers. But it's a great story first AVN... one of the best through chapter 2.

I'll leave off here, except to say that so many devs inadvertantly create immature, boorish MCs -- but treat their boorishness as a strength. SOP has a MC who is immature, but not at all boorish... where immaturity, as IRL, correlates with vulnerability, with innocence. Playing this MC, I feel emotionally exposed and concerned about his coming loss of innocence (I don't mean anything as simple as sexual innocence)... which is the sign of a very well written game!

 

[Canto Forte]

Just another game where the best friend has the girls and the job and the panache, while MC ends up giving up his bartender position to a girl before she wanted anything to do with him and plays cabbie to another girl going to visit her friends with bennefits - lunatics who like to impose and presume their BS on others and MC manages to get some simp dialogue options in and under their noses - blowing smoke up theirs is a sure thing to stick around.

Playing this MC, I feel emotionally exposed and concerned about his coming loss of innocence

It is nice to see some whacky exchanges going anywhere and the fun part of picking and choosing some combos or dialogue options until you run out of ideas and call it quits ... could be exhilirating ... you need to switch off your brain to the entitled maniacs around, even if they are flavourful, patience and the right words to boast them girls does pay off.

 

[jufot]

She's my favourite LI, mostly because she fits my general maxim: the woman you need, in literature as in life, is the one who _does not_ need you.

Agreed. Being wanted is not the same as being needed, and the difference is vastly underappreciated.

It's also part of why Becca is such a great foil to Daniel. He's completely enamoured, and holds her on an impossibly high pedestal. He tailors his words and actions to what he thinks she would like. Still, he isn't fake or deceptive about it. Too eager, certainly, but she can see that he's a decent guy.

Everything you say about her character makes sense, it's what makes her such an attractive proposition - to you, to me, to Daniel. Her intimacy issues are obvious, but why would he be the man for her? That's an open question for now, but given how skilled the writing has been, I'm fairly confident we'll get a satisfactory conclusion to her arc.

Amy is charming as well, but she does suffer in comparison. Hopefully, we'll be surprised there too.

But yeah, overall, amazeballs indeed!

 

[Raife]

Agreed. Being wanted is not the same as being needed, and the difference is vastly underappreciated.

It's also part of why Becca is such a great foil to Daniel. He's completely enamoured, and holds her on an impossibly high pedestal. He tailors his words and actions to what he thinks she would like. Still, he isn't fake or deceptive about it. Too eager, certainly, but she can see that he's a decent guy.

Absolutely... which is why I observed that he is an immature man. He hasn't quite figured out that when he stops fronting and trying to guess want she wants (or give her what she wants) she starts to see something in him.

But, as I say, his immaturity -- his innocence -- makes him vulnerable, which makes him sympathetic. And it makes the player feel uncomfortable and exposed, which is _good_.

The 'good' version of this arc is, in a classic 'coming of age' tale sense, he loses a bit of his innocence, gains some wisdom, and stops trying so hard. Then maybe, just maybe, he has a shot.

The 'bad' version is that losing his innocence entails some pretty harsh disillusionment, on many fronts. But perhaps he emerges as a better man, more equipped to deal with the world, to love and be loved. And that's not such a 'bad end' after all.

Either way, that's a story worth reading.

 

[Deleted member 2577953]

There is rarely any exposition, and we just discover the world through character interactions over time. Always the sign of a competent writer, I think.
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Right. I liked how this latest chapter fleshed out the parties a bit, and it's good that none of them seem to be omnipotent or have the obvious upper hand.

Fully agreed. The dev knows exactly what to show the audience, and when to show it.

For example, chapter 6 happened at the best time possible, clarified some of the biggest questions.

Any sooner, and it would have wasted some of the potential tension. Any later, it would have become a little demanding of the players.

The level of control the dev has over the suspense is praiseworthy.

I will disagree on two minor points, though.

Don't let Bradford hear you! He's a good man weighed down by entirely too much pain, but he's a sensitive soul that cares about Jenny. He's just too distracted for her sake.

I don't know, I actually enjoy a stupid teenager protagonist being... well, stupid It gives the VN some verisimilitude.

Yeah, I'm aware that both my nitpicks are not the most reasonable ones Especially the one about Jenny acting stupid.

Although, in the case of Bradford, until the guy burst out after seeing the body, he did come off as just some agent trying to take advantage of a teenager's situation, and put her in danger, to get what he wanted.

So, it was kinda hard for me to see him as a "good man" until then.