Recommending Story-first games

[Quetzzz]

At least a bit of classism, not only MC's father is dead, but is adoptive father too.

At least his father and grandfather aren't written out so the MC can get with his mom & grandmother

 

[Tlaero]

It's early days, but a tentative recommendation for Engineers of Shadow-Moon Station.
...
Have you played it? What did you think?

Thanks for the suggestion, Jufot! I just played the prolog and the part of CH1 that's available so far. I am definitely enjoying it.

I like the scenario and I'm interested in seeing where it goes. Having never read anything of GIG's I don't know how good of a writer they are yet. They kept saying, "This seems too convenient," but I don't know if that's because there's a dark plot going on or if they're just acknowledging the elephant in the room that it really is too convenient.

I played the wholesome "let's really love each other" route because, of course I did, and I adore the dynamic between Jason and Bell. Their banter is great. A little weird in places where Bell looked angry but wasn't, but facial expressions are HARD. I'm frequently reminded of how lucky I am to be working with Mortze.

In the path I played, there was a lot of sex, which worked with the story, at least on the path I was playing. I assume that some of the other paths have less sex but will get more later on. For instance, at orientation when the VP was taking you to see your workspace, there was an opportunity to flirt with her. My Jason did no such thing, but I assume that there's a path for other players to get it on with her too.

I'm torn on the sex scenes. They were animated, which was nice, but that meant they weren't very visually diverse. They tended to be three or so animations for the whole scene. I think I would have liked maybe fewer animations and more single frames showing different camera angles and such. I'd hope there's a sweet spot between, "Just a small number of animations" and "No animations, but lots of visually interesting images."

I'm thrilled that Bell (and the other women we've seen) all have human sized breasts.

I felt that Bell and Jason talk too much during sex. I mean, if they wanted to stop, chat a bit, and go back at it, that would be fine. But does anyone carry on a conversation while pounding?

The English is fine, though the kinds of mistakes I saw suggest that GIG isn't a native English speaker. If that's the case, I'm really impressed. Regardless, as I said before, the banter is fantastic.

Something that jumped out at me in the prolog was that we got a lot of places where Jason thought to himself something that he should have already known and wouldn't think, but GIG had him do that to give us some information that we didn't know. That's a no no. Much better to show rather than tell. Making a character give us a history lesson in his thoughts, is the worst kind of "tell." Better to have the narrator dump the information instead. Much better though, would be to have us figure the information out by what we see happen. Of course, that's hard. The good news is that it seemed to only happen early on in the prolog.

I am worried that this is really, really ambitious. The amount of content that needs to be produced for all of these branches is going to get unwieldy. That can help replayability, but many people will only play through once, and all that work on the other branches will be lost on them.

Definitely a good start, though. I'll play more when it comes out.

Tlaero

 

[jufot]

Thanks for giving it a go, Tlaero!

They kept saying, "This seems too convenient," but I don't know if that's because there's a dark plot going on or if they're just acknowledging the elephant in the room that it really is too convenient

The former, I assume, because the latter feels too cleverly meta

I played the wholesome "let's really love each other" route because, of course I did, and I adore the dynamic between Jason and Bell.

As did I.

In the path I played, there was a lot of sex, which worked with the story, at least on the path I was playing. I assume that some of the other paths have less sex but will get more later on.

As usual, I played with the script open so I can confirm this. The last sex scene that you saw can actually be their first if you're not on the "real couple" route.

I felt that Bell and Jason talk too much during sex. I mean, if they wanted to stop, chat a bit, and go back at it, that would be fine. But does anyone carry on a conversation while pounding?

They're a bit too chatty perhaps, but I prefer it to the silence and grunting that seems to be the norm.

Something that jumped out at me in the prolog was that we got a lot of places where Jason thought to himself something that he should have already known and wouldn't think, but GIG had him do that to give us some information that we didn't know. That's a no no. Much better to show rather than tell.

Oh yes, it's a common problem. Here's my complaint from 3 years ago

I am worried that this is really, really ambitious. The amount of content that needs to be produced for all of these branches is going to get unwieldy.

Judging by the script, many visuals have variations based on Jason and Bell's relationships status (e.g. they are walking with or without holding hands) and there are tons of small branches to accommodate that. I hope they can avoid scope creep.

 

[Finuee]

As usual, I played with the script open

I'm now curious. You really play every game with the rpy script open? Does anybody else do that? Because I think I might have to check what comments I leave in the code, in light of this...

 

[jufot]

You really play every game with the rpy script open?

I do! The devs who leave design notes, discussions with other devs and artists etc. are my favourite

 

[Finuee]

I do! The devs who leave design notes, discussions with other devs and artists etc. are my favourite

I hope I didn't leave any spoilers behind on Feeneera... Fortunately, since it's a collab, all of the plotting was done through a Google Document.

I will definitely do a clean up of my solo game before release, as the whole script and plot is laid out in there. Being a solo project, everything is in the actual rpy files, for easy of reference...

 

[jufot]

I hope I didn't leave any spoilers behind on Feeneera

You didn't. There were a few comments and I enjoyed those. Please leave them alone

 

[Quetzzz]

I'm now curious. You really play every game with the rpy script open? Does anybody else do that? Because I think I might have to check what comments I leave in the code, in light of this...

I often do. It's not about needing a walkthrough or wanting to make the best choices, but about checking how dynamic dialogue is depending on previous choices, and how alternative paths play out (if I'm not interested in replaying).
Also, sometimes, choices are so badly telegraphed and void of any context that I have no clue what I'm deciding on... In that case I check what's happening in the code as well.

You didn't. There were a few comments and I enjoyed those. Please leave them alone

Agreed! If it weren't for some comments, I would've missed a neat transition because I was skipping transitions at the time. Also, pointing out that the woman was talking to the camera instead of the MMC was neat context.

 

[kotte]

I'm now curious. You really play every game with the rpy script open? Does anybody else do that? Because I think I might have to check what comments I leave in the code, in light of this...

I do that a lot! And just as Jufot said, some comments left in the code just add to the lore...

For me, the reason I do that is because most walkthroughs seems to focus on giving you the highest number of sex scenes, and that is, maybe not the opposite of what I want, but almost.

I just want to play one playthrough, and I want to maximize the emotional reward of it, whether that means getting the most happy ending, the one that felt most true, or maybe the saddest.

If the story has many interesting paths, I will then wait a couple of weeks/months and give it another go.

 

[Tlaero]

I'm now curious. You really play every game with the rpy script open? Does anybody else do that? Because I think I might have to check what comments I leave in the code, in light of this...

When I wrote the prolog of Toro 7, I had a comment to Mortze that contained a major spoiler for something that wasn't going to be revealed until episode 5 or so. I totally ruined it for Moskys, who saw the spoiler while doing the Spanish translation. I felt bad about this.

I know that Jufot likes to see the comments, so I don't remove them. But I now make sure that none of the comments are spoilers. If I need to tell Mortze something that's a spoiler, I tell him on Discord.

Tlaero

 

[Tlaero]

Oh yes, it's a common problem. Here's my complaint from 3 years ago

That's a great example. Doing it in dialog is even worse than doing it in thoughts because then you have two characters acting weirdly.

The narrator can get away with it. And sometimes comics have the "editor" talk to the audience, which kinda works. And if you've got a 4th wall breaking character (who does it consistently, not just for this bit of information) that can work too. But it's far, far better to show rather than tell.

Sometimes you have to ask yourself, "Does it really matter if the reader doesn't get this point?" In Puzzle Date, I was in the process of writing a description of what happened technologically and socially that made sex the way it is in that world. I started with something stupidly long, then cut it down, then cut it down some more. And finally I removed it entirely. However cool I thought my explanation was, it wasn't at all vital to the story and only detracted.

Tlaero

 

[Finuee]

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I'm too used to compiling programs, where the source code stays out of the end product. I'll have to remember to revise the comments before releases, to make sure there's nothing there that's spoilery.

I guess if you guys looked into the source so much, then you found the couple of easter eggs through the code.

would've missed a neat transition because I was skipping transitions at the time.

For the next release, I'm adding code that checks when the player has transitions turned off, and insert a brief pause in the couple of places where the image relies on the transition in order to be seen at all.

pointing out that the woman was talking to the camera instead of the MMC was neat context

I hope that's clear enough without the comments, though. From the way she's looking at the phone instead of him when she says that.

 

[Quetzzz]

For the next release, I'm adding code that checks when the player has transitions turned off, and insert a brief pause in the couple of places where the image relies on the transition in order to be seen at all.

Awesome!

I hope that's clear enough without the comments, though. From the way she's looking at the phone instead of him when she says that.

I'm... not always the brightest bulb in the shed.

 

[Pgsurprise]

Oh yes, it's a common problem. Here's my complaint from 3 years ago

I don't necessarily agree with that example (not having read that story), but as someone who's not very bright, and terrible with names, this can give me a better idea of who is being talked about. So if the assistant isn't as much of a main character and the other guy is, it can make it more clear to me who they're talking about.

I read a book called "The Cutout" by Francine Matthews that is a spy thriller and all the characters had aliases and almost all started with "A". I had to make notes to keep up.

Sometimes you have to ask yourself, "Does it really matter if the reader doesn't get this point?"

I'm not debating against your expertise on what is and isn't good writing. But for me it can be very frustrating to not get the point, if I know there's a point to be made. I can't (well getting better, really) just let it go as not important. It's written right there, it could be something that the whole plot hinges on later. It's difficult with AVNs, but with paper books I'm often flipping back pages, or chapters, to try to find a nugget of info to remind me of something. I'm not saying people should write for the lowest common denominator, but for me personally it can lower the enjoyment or make me quit if it happens too much.

For the next release, I'm adding code that checks when the player has transitions turned off, and insert a brief pause in the couple of places where the image relies on the transition in order to be seen at all

Is this the "skip transitions" menu setting? I always thought that was if you hit skip it would just go to the next scene.

If you have this check in the code does that mean the the transitions become click through frames?

I hope that's clear enough without the comments, though. From the way she's looking at the phone instead of him when she says that.

I don't remember the scene, but people do sometimes talk to each other without looking up from the screen. Of course, sometimes it's followed by "are you talking to me?" which would probably be annoying in the story .

For what it's worth I never look at the script. I wouldn't even know how, especially since I play on Android.

 

[Quetzzz]

I'm not debating against your expertise on what is and isn't good writing. But for me it can be very frustrating to not get the point, if I know there's a point to be made. I can't (well getting better, really) just let it go as not important. It's written right there, it could be something that the whole plot hinges on later. It's difficult with AVNs, but with paper books I'm often flipping back pages, or chapters, to try to find a nugget of info to remind me of something. I'm not saying people should write for the lowest common denominator, but for me personally it can lower the enjoyment or make me quit if it happens too much.

AVNs can solve this with a glossary, especially when there's a bunch of worldbuilding or global backstory. It lets the narrative move along while giving people who like lore or worldbuilding the opportunity to dive deeper.

Is this the "skip transitions" menu setting? I always thought that was if you hit skip it would just go to the next scene.

If you have this check in the code does that mean the the transitions become click through frames?

No, skip transitions means that consecutive renders appear instantaneously instead of with the assigned transition. Usually renders will "dissolve" into each other over 0.5 seconds. If you press "auto" with the highest text speed you'll notice this. Text will flash by until you encounter a transition.
The proposed code doesn't change the sequence into click through frames, but merely adds the 0.5 seconds that the transition would otherwise have taken to make sure the effect isn't immediately overwritten by the next render.

 

[Pgsurprise]

AVNs can solve this with a glossary, especially when there's a bunch of worldbuilding or global backstory. It lets the narrative move along while giving people who like lore or worldbuilding the opportunity to dive deeper.


No, skip transitions means that consecutive renders appear instantaneously instead of with the assigned transition. Usually renders will "dissolve" into each other over 0.5 seconds. If you press "auto" with the highest text speed you'll notice this. Text will flash by until you encounter a transition.
The proposed code doesn't change the sequence into click through frames, but merely adds the 0.5 seconds that the transition would otherwise have taken to make sure the effect isn't immediately overwritten by the next render.

Very true about the glossary. It's very helpful, and best when it can be accessed at any time. It's the nice thing about harem games, because they often have the relationship status screen .

Thanks for the definition of skip transitions. Mostly I want to slow them down, not skip them completely.

 

[Quetzzz]

Thanks for the definition of skip transitions. Mostly I want to slow them down, not skip them completely.

That's more difficult and not something Ren'Py supports natively. Personally, I grab a screenshot if a render in a sequence has something interesting going on.

 

[Tlaero]

I don't necessarily agree with that example (not having read that story), but as someone who's not very bright, and terrible with names, this can give me a better idea of who is being talked about. So if the assistant isn't as much of a main character and the other guy is, it can make it more clear to me who they're talking about.

The example from Jufot's past was:
Percy: That bastard's gonna attract the wrong kind of attention.
Aegon: Can't blame him. As Henry's assistant, he's one of the last loose ends they have.

The solution can be fairly simple:
Percy: That bastard's gonna attract the wrong kind of attention.
Aegon: Can't blame him. He's one of the last loose ends they have.
Percy: Ah, because he's Henry's assistant. Good point.

The latter sounds like they're talking to each other. The former sounds like they're talking to us. (I haven't read that story either, so I don't know if this actually works there, but you get the idea.)

I'm not debating against your expertise on what is and isn't good writing. But for me it can be very frustrating to not get the point, if I know there's a point to be made. I can't (well getting better, really) just let it go as not important. It's written right there, it could be something that the whole plot hinges on later. It's difficult with AVNs, but with paper books I'm often flipping back pages, or chapters, to try to find a nugget of info to remind me of something. I'm not saying people should write for the lowest common denominator, but for me personally it can lower the enjoyment or make me quit if it happens too much.

I think we may be talking about different things. I was referring to world backstory.

Sometimes the backstory is really important. ie Someone just invented a faster than light drive and we're going on the maiden voyage. Etc.

Other times, it's less so.

For instance, say the place we're going is an established base in another solar system. In this case, the writer doesn't need to tell us that FTL was invented 40 years ago. When we see the characters get there in a short amount of time, we'll assume they've got something like FTL. Now, if the story is about a terrorist group planning to burn down a shipyard on the 40th anniversary of the invention, then it IS important.

As writers, we like to come up with all sorts of data about how the world works. But, just because we've worked out all the details doesn't mean that we need to burden the reader with all of them. It's often best to just give the ones that are relevant.

Quetzzz's suggestion of a Codex or a Glossary is a really good solution to the problem as well. Especially if there's a lot of extra data to give.

Tlaero

 

[Quetzzz]

As writers, we like to come up with all sorts of data about how the world works. But, just because we've worked out all the details doesn't mean that we need to burden the reader with all of them. It's often best to just give the ones that are relevant.

True, but working this out lets it shine in other ways, even only by being internally consistent. Take things like magic systems. They can be incredibly complex and tedious to explain to the reader.... But I'd argue the reader doesn't need to know the ins and outs; they only need to be assured that the magic on display is consistent, that the author isn't lying to them, or worse, pulling it out of his ass.

 

[Pgsurprise]

The example from Jufot's past was:
Percy: That bastard's gonna attract the wrong kind of attention.
Aegon: Can't blame him. As Henry's assistant, he's one of the last loose ends they have.

The solution can be fairly simple:
Percy: That bastard's gonna attract the wrong kind of attention.
Aegon: Can't blame him. He's one of the last loose ends they have.
Percy: Ah, because he's Henry's assistant. Good point.

The latter sounds like they're talking to each other. The former sounds like they're talking to us. (I haven't read that story either, so I don't know if this actually works there, but you get the idea.)



I think we may be talking about different things. I was referring to world backstory.

Sometimes the backstory is really important. ie Someone just invented a faster than light drive and we're going on the maiden voyage. Etc.

Other times, it's less so.

For instance, say the place we're going is an established base in another solar system. In this case, the writer doesn't need to tell us that FTL was invented 40 years ago. When we see the characters get there in a short amount of time, we'll assume they've got something like FTL. Now, if the story is about a terrorist group planning to burn down a shipyard on the 40th anniversary of the invention, then it IS important.

As writers, we like to come up with all sorts of data about how the world works. But, just because we've worked out all the details doesn't mean that we need to burden the reader with all of them. It's often best to just give the ones that are relevant.

Quetzzz's suggestion of a Codex or a Glossary is a really good solution to the problem as well. Especially if there's a lot of extra data to give.

Tlaero

Good example for that bastard. I understand. You can dumb it down AND make it flow better

For the other, I misunderstood and was speaking in more general terms. But it makes sense that the authors would come up with way more details about the world and characters that may be important for how and why things develop as they do, but don't really need to be known to the reader.

Thanks for clarifying.