Recommending Story-first games

[vneotpolemus]

First one is a no brainer. I am confident that you will like this AND it fills all the criteria in the OP. Elvensang. This game probably has the best prose and technical writing ability I have seen from an AVN. The world building is rich. The characters are well developed. The story takes itself seriously. The moral dilemmas are not black and white. The factions are not black and white. Everybody is justified in their own actions and you can sympathize with all parties. If this one doesn't get in the OP, I will riot.

Adding my voice to the chorus for Elvensang, it is a really good game. My only concern is that the dev has bitten off more than they can chew with the branching story (First Game Syndrome strikes again).

Now the more controversial one. Pale Carnations. This was recommended a while back. It was #1 on the weighted rankings for a bit, and for good reason. I saw your short response to another person recommending this, but I'm not sure if you've played it. It certainly has male dom, coercion, and a bunch of "unsavory" tags, but it doesn't revel in it. The entire premise for the story is a fucked up situation for those girls, but the game doesn't ever fully indulge in those fetishes without remorse. Even the most corrupted version of the MC is very much mindful of his propensity for darkness and does not flaunt it like some male dom crazed rapist having the time of his life. Although I haven't done the route, the good guy MC would certainly be someone who finds himself wrapped up in some bad business, and he is trying to come out of it with his soul in tact and help as many girls as he can. Plus, the writing is excellent on a technical level. That said, if the subject matter is not to your liking, I can see why it might not make your list (although technically, it doesn't violate any of the criteria in the OP hehe).

Pale Carnations is probably the most psychologically interesting AVN I've played. It does a really good job of immersing the player in what's going on - you feel complicit, just like the MC does. I can see why a lot of people find it too dark, but it completely deserves it place at the top end of the rankings.

Another unrelated question, have you tried Vae Victis and Blackmailing the Family yet? I ended dropping the last one early for a number of reasons, but I think you may like it.

I tried Vae Victis an update or two ago. It's fun if you want an unabashed maledom porn game, but the story and writing aren't very impressive. Pale Carnations, Desert Stalker, and the Karlsson's Gambit dom path are better options for that niche imo.

 

[jufot]

I'll drop a few cents as well and add Elvensang,it has a nice story,give it a try if you are interested.

First one is a no brainer. I am confident that you will like this AND it fills all the criteria in the OP. Elvensang. This game probably has the best prose and technical writing ability I have seen from an AVN. The world building is rich. The characters are well developed. The story takes itself seriously. The moral dilemmas are not black and white. The factions are not black and white. Everybody is justified in their own actions and you can sympathize with all parties. If this one doesn't get in the OP, I will riot.

I played Elvensang on recommendation and I have to say, it warrants being fast tracked to the top of the backlog. It is that good.

Adding my voice to the chorus for Elvensang, it is a really good game. My only concern is that the dev has bitten off more than they can chew with the branching story (First Game Syndrome strikes again).

Oh, wow... This was utterly brilliant! I started reading sometime in the afternoon and it's 1 AM now - I just couldn't stop until the end. The author is clearly exceptionally skilled, and their claims of being an amateur ring hollow.

I do share vneotpolemus' concerns though; the sheer number of impactful and mutually exclusive choices feel like the beginnings of scope creep. We can only hope Worlaix knows what they're doing. Still, it's not at all surprising to see their Patreon doing much better than most.

Obviously, you were all well justified in your praise, and the game has been added to the OP

 

[Vasin]

I wanted to chime in with a bit more about Elvensang. I don't mean to disrespect or even be critical of PoP here, but this to me is what I expected PoP to be. All the teen romance and fantasy world building. Instead it quickly veers off into this sci-fi post apocalypse thing, which is well written but not exactly what I came to the game for. Like sure, Maria and MC have all this history between them but it's only dumped on us in exposition and it doesn't exactly feel earned to me. And it is clearly evident that the author greatly prefers detailing of the "sci-fi" part of the world as opposed to the "fantasy" one. I think the sci-fi bit works out perfectly, but it's a little bit of a switcheroo and I think Elvensang is a superior fantasy game, even if just for copious amount of world building detail.

I did find "incestous" lead ins to be kind of awkward? I never really clicked on any of those options, and just wrote it off as some kid of elven non-traditional child rearing practices, because otherwise she's a very well written character. They just felt kind of tacked on alongside a much more compelling Sunny plotline.

 

[jufot]

Instead it quickly veers off into this sci-fi post apocalypse thing, which is well written but not exactly what I came to the game for. [...] And it is clearly evident that the author greatly prefers detailing of the "sci-fi" part of the world as opposed to the "fantasy" one.

I quite like PoP, but this is fair. It helps that I care about Legacy and his story a lot more than I do about Michael and Maria. The gang discovering that military crate felt like that scene in

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where Ivy climbs over the surrounding walls of her 19th century village and discovers a modern, asphalt road. It's what sold me on PoP.

Elvensang is a superior fantasy game, even if just for copious amount of world building detail

Definitely. PoP's characters are very black&white, whereas most in Elvensang are shades of grey. It makes the world much more interesting and immersive.

I did find "incestous" lead ins to be kind of awkward? I never really clicked on any of those options, and just wrote it off as some kid of elven non-traditional child rearing practices, because otherwise she's a very well written character. They just felt kind of tacked on alongside a much more compelling Sunny plotline.

Yeah, I'm not sold on the incest either. The cuddling scene was perfectly fine, but the bathing bit felt very awkward. Sunny is infinitely more compelling.

 

[boobsrcool]

great thread thanks

 

[bacienvu88]

People here who like Nothing is Forever (it is in jufot's list after all), what is it that you actually like about it? I have tried three times now to get into it, but I just get frustrated by it. I have only played something like a third of the first chapter so far, but I am never able to continue past that.

My main problem is the personality / skill system which I find distracting and to a large degree nonsensical.

It is distracting, because at least I tend to think more about which personality points I want to get rather than what the actual responses say.

It is nonsensical because the descriptions of the traits doesn't match well the actual responses. If we go by the actual responses, "honorable" means always telling the truth, no matter what. "Cunning" means to be evasive and a lazy bum. "Sensitive" mean to be afraid of conflicts and "manly" means to be rude and childish. What's even worse is that this isn't reflected on the dialog in between choices which makes the dialog rather awkward. In addition there are plenty of options that seem rather arbitrary (why is it "manly" to point out that exercise leads to a healthy mind?)

It is also nonsensical because they have arbitrarily tied sexual kinks to this personality system in form of sexual skills. I don't see what being "honorable" has to do with roleplaying or freeuse. Or why a "sensitive" person would particularly like sharing or being cucked (rather the opposite if all crybabies shouting about NTR is anything to go by).

An example is the dialog between MC and Emma who supposedly like to argument with each other a lot. But there are no options to actually argue with her, instead it is just being rude or being supportive.

Another problem with the game is that the MC doesn't seem like a psychologist at all, but rather the usual horny teenager MC that doesn't take anything seriously. Not the professional psychologist he is supposed to be. Which also clash if you take more "honorable" and "sensitive" options.

 

[jufot]

People here who like Nothing is Forever (it is in @jufot's list after all), what is it that you actually like about it?

Good question! I suppose I like the realism of the characters. Deb is having some very interesting struggles in her relationship that we don't usually see in AVNs. She and her boyfriend open up to MC about it, and they have a surprisingly mature conversation. Kim is a garden variety cake eater - she's happy in her relationship, she just cheats for the fun of it. Jen is the stereotypical, introverted nerd with a crush on an authority figure. She's dangerously careless about pursuing MC, as expected from a young, inexperienced wallflower. The rest haven't been really developed so far, but I like what I'm seeing.

Another problem with the game is that the MC doesn't seem like a psychologist at all, but rather the usual horny teenager MC that doesn't take anything seriously. Not the professional psychologist he is supposed to be.

MC is a shit psychologist, and it's an important part of his backstory. You can choose to go for a redemption arc by gently rejecting Jen, or you can embrace your weakness and repeat past mistakes. Most of this plays out in chapter 3, and it felt very well done.

It is also nonsensical because they have arbitrarily tied sexual kinks to this personality system in form of sexual skills. I don't see what being "honorable" has to do with roleplaying or freeuse. Or why a "sensitive" person would particularly like sharing or being cucked (rather the opposite if all crybabies shouting about NTR is anything to go by).

The dev is very open to feedback on this, and what you see in game is the second or third iteration of this system. It's not perfect, as you've noticed, but I think most of them fit well at this point. Sweetness and romance for "sensitive", trustworthy and loyal for "honorable", cheating and seduction for "cunning", and power and dominance for "manly". It might change further, but I think he's on the right track.

 

[bacienvu88]

Good question! I suppose I like the realism of the characters. Deb is having some very interesting struggles in her relationship that we don't usually see in AVNs. She and her boyfriend open up to MC about it, and they have a surprisingly mature conversation. Kim is a garden variety cake eater - she's happy in her relationship, she just cheats for the fun of it. Jen is the stereotypical, introverted nerd with a crush on an authority figure. She's dangerously careless about pursuing MC, as expected from a young, inexperienced wallflower. The rest haven't been really developed so far, but I like what I'm seeing.

I'm glad that the characters are good at least. I may try to play more of the game. Perhaps in relax mode so I don't need to think as much about the personality system.

MC is a shit psychologist, and it's an important part of his backstory. You can choose to go for a redemption arc by gently rejecting Jen, or you can embrace your weakness and repeat past mistakes. Most of this plays out in chapter 3, and it felt very well done.

That MC isn't a blank slate, but has a backstory etc. is another point that clashes with the personality system. He already has a personality. This is rather obvious in what I've played so far where your choices don't actually reflect on what MC says or how he behaves. The choices become disjointed with how he is otherwise.

The dev is very open to feedback on this, and what you see in game is the second or third iteration of this system. It's not perfect, as you've noticed, but I think most of them fit well at this point. Sweetness and romance for "sensitive", trustworthy and loyal for "honorable", cheating and seduction for "cunning", and power and dominance for "manly". It might change further, but I think he's on the right track.

Not sure I want to involve the dev. I can imagine they already get a ton of conflicting suggestions already.

Besides, my preference would be to remove the whole personality/skill system and do something that is more natural. Because I think it detracts from the story rather than add to it. I'll refrain for now from making more detailed observations until I've played more of the game.

 

[Raife]

Holy shit this was amazing! So much so that I left a review, subscribed to the dev's Patreon, and added the game to the OP. Thanks for this brilliant recommendation

Soooo... I finally got to _A Long Journey_. It's good... and deserves to be in your OP. I particularly admire:

• The dev's depiction of sex between male and female characters. They nail it: the passion, the exploration, the slight fumbling (even among sexually experienced people, who are with each other the first time). So much of the sex depicted in these games does not feel real or arousing. This does.
• The ambiguously motivated LI. Absolutely love it.
• The setting... it has been done before in sci-fi, but I like the twists.

But I am concerned, jufot, that the dev is making a classic mistake: creating an exceptionally expansive plot with too many characters. It feels like we are just at the beginning of the beginning of the story... and there's already a _ton_ of dialogue. I can't see how they are going to finish this thing.

 

[Raife]

That MC isn't a blank slate, but has a backstory etc. is another point that clashes with the personality system. He already has a personality. This is rather obvious in what I've played so far where your choices don't actually reflect on what MC says or how he behaves. The choices become disjointed with how he is otherwise.

I love the game, but you are on to something here.

The MC is not a blank slate... which is why the story works. But you are right that he does not really 'evolve' much in terms of his dialogue, based on our choices and his progress in the personality system. There certainly are examples of very different scenes that you can open up, if you choose one personality over another... and some character relationships are 'gated' based on your points or earned traits... but it's not perfect.

Overall, I'd say that there are four broad paths, with a number of character-driven choices and LI branches within each of the personality-related paths. I'd encourage the dev to make these paths a bit more mutually exclusive, in order to better depict how the MC's outlook changes based on his choices... but I suspect that my view of the matter would be a minority outlier.

At any rate, it's a fiendishly complicated system, and the game gives players a tremendous amount of agency for a story-driven game. Most games destroy the story when they give the player that much agency... this one hasn't done so, yet.

 

[jufot]

Soooo... I finally got to _A Long Journey_. It's good... and deserves to be in your OP. I particularly admire [some very good points]

Glad you enjoyed the game, and I couldn't agree more. That pool scene might be my favourite bit of romantic sexual tension in some time

But I am concerned, jufot, that the dev is making a classic mistake: creating an exceptionally expansive plot with too many characters. It feels like we are just at the beginning of the beginning of the story... and there's already a _ton_ of dialogue. I can't see how they are going to finish this thing.

Indeed. This is a solo developer who, unlike pretty much any other AVN dev, is modelling his own 3D environments from scratch. He posts design updates on Discord and while it's fascinating to watch, it's incredibly time-consuming, and I worry he might burn out with the sheer scale of it. Like you say, even when it's just the 3-4 characters we've seen so far, there is a ton of dialogue, and he's planning to introduce the rest of the people in MC's cryo chamber. I think there were 6 more? We'll see how it goes.

. I'd encourage the dev to make these paths a bit more mutually exclusive, in order to better depict how the MC's outlook changes based on his choices... but I suspect that my view of the matter would be a minority outlier.

I completely agree, but, the problem is, if he were to do that, vultures would descend on his thread complaining about a lack of "content" on their favourite path with every update. See AWAM as a great example of this.

 

[bacienvu88]

I love the game, but you are on to something here.

The MC is not a blank slate... which is why the story works. But you are right that he does not really 'evolve' much in terms of his dialogue, based on our choices and his progress in the personality system. There certainly are examples of very different scenes that you can open up, if you choose one personality over another... and some character relationships are 'gated' based on your points or earned traits... but it's not perfect.

Overall, I'd say that there are four broad paths, with a number of character-driven choices and LI branches within each of the personality-related paths. I'd encourage the dev to make these paths a bit more mutually exclusive, in order to better depict how the MC's outlook changes based on his choices... but I suspect that my view of the matter would be a minority outlier.

At any rate, it's a fiendishly complicated system, and the game gives players a tremendous amount of agency for a story-driven game. Most games destroy the story when they give the player that much agency... this one hasn't done so, yet.

I have actually finished it now. And I'm glad I did. If nothing else there were awesome chess games. I'm not even joking, I found that to be one of the best parts. I also like the progression of the story. It is pretty interesting. The thing is though, that I find it to be a bad idea to get involved with any of the girls, with perhaps the exception of Bri or Lea. I could see involvement with Emma in the far future when they have sorted out whatever they need to sort out. But the others are too messed up.

I got rid of my frustrations mainly by thinking of the personality system more as feeding his inner demons rather than actually having anything to do with his personality. And also ignore the labels and descriptions, because I have real difficulty to connect those descriptions with the actual choices a lot of the time. So the blue option is feeding the blue demon, etc. And not think too much about the connection to the blue kinks.

I realized that the problem with the MC is that he is a chameleon. He takes on the personality needed for whatever the other party needs. This is exacerbated by the personality system which encourages you to optimize point allocations in such a way as to be able to do everything. This makes the MC very confusing to play, since he simultaneously have a set personality (his background) and all other personalities at the same time.

I think the personality system could work reasonably well (I still think no personality/skill system would be even better) if you get something like 500 points at the beginning of the game and have to distribute it at the beginning of the game. Maybe you can get a 100 points throughout the game to get you a bit of leeway. That way you would have a set personality and skills that you need to live with.

I have just played the game once so far, but it doesn't seem that complicated? Mostly the separate paths for the girls and minor variations and gate keeping elsewhere. At least it doesn't seem anywhere near Dog Days of Summer (which is the absolute pinnacle of complicated branching in my opinion) or Intertwined.

I completely agree, but, the problem is, if he were to do that, vultures would descend on his thread complaining about a lack of "content" on their favourite path with every update. See AWAM as a great example of this.

I'm already there. The only thing close to sex in my playthrough was some video call masturbation with Lea. Maybe I should go to the thread and complain.

 

[jufot]

If nothing else there were awesome chess games. I'm not even joking, I found that to be one of the best parts.

Brilliant! Now there are three of us thinking that - you, me and the dev

The thing is though, that I find it to be a bad idea to get involved with any of the girls, with perhaps the exception of Bri or Lea.

Lea is ruined for me as her path stopped being about exhibitionism (here, here and here) - which I love - despite the dev's claims to the contrary. Bri has had very little character development yet, so the jury's still out. My favourite remains Deb. She is in a deeply frustrating sexual mismatch situation with her boyfriend. With his full permission, you can engage in some of the best femdom on F95 with her

This makes the MC very confusing to play, since he simultaneously have a set personality (his background) and all other personalities at the same time.

Fair, that's the downside of indulging in excessive player choice - it dilutes the character.

I think the personality system could work reasonably well (I still think no personality/skill system would be even better) if you get something like 500 points at the beginning of the game and have to distribute it at the beginning of the game.

The trick is to avoid spending until you encounter a choice you want to pick, but can't without spending points. That will reduce the cognitive dissonance caused by confusing choices

The only thing close to sex in my playthrough was some video call masturbation with Lea. Maybe I should go to the thread and complain.

That's entirely your fault for not submitting to Deb

 

[realjitter]

I realized that the problem with the MC is that he is a chameleon. He takes on the personality needed for whatever the other party needs. This is exacerbated by the personality system which encourages you to optimize point allocations in such a way as to be able to do everything. This makes the MC very confusing to play, since he simultaneously have a set personality (his background) and all other personalities at the same time.

I think the personality system could work reasonably well (I still think no personality/skill system would be even better) if you get something like 500 points at the beginning of the game and have to distribute it at the beginning of the game. Maybe you can get a 100 points throughout the game to get you a bit of leeway. That way you would have a set personality and skills that you need to live with.

I like your idea alot because as of now it feels like you'll end up accumulatiing so many points so that you'll be able to purchase all the traits by the end of the next chapter already regardless of what you do...That being said though, i still like that system for role playing purposes so it doesn't bother me that much. It's a great game regardless...

 

[bacienvu88]

Brilliant! Now there are three of us thinking that - you, me and the dev

Maybe make it into nude chess to make it enticing for more people? I.e. having characters from the game act as chess pieces in the nude.

Lea is ruined for me as her path stopped being about exhibitionism (here, here and here) - which I love - despite the dev's claims to the contrary.

Interesting links. And not to get into semantics, I mostly agree with you. The interesting part is the risk of getting caught. And I also find actual sex in public to be a bit rude to other people. I don't think it is very fun for store clerks to deal with people having sex in changing rooms.

Which leads me to another point: I hope the dev brings up and discuss negatives with all these kinks. How do you deal with someone who is very much not pleased with your exhibitionism? Or takes a video and uploads it to the internet? I mean, the dev has already brought up the sexual mismatch between Deb and Carl, but I feel that is mostly used as a reason for MC to get close to Deb.

My favourite remains Deb. She is in a deeply frustrating sexual mismatch situation with her boyfriend. With his full permission, you can engage in some of the best femdom on F95 with her

That's entirely your fault for not submitting to Deb

But she also says that she is really uncomfortable doing anything with anyone other than Carl. So my MC might submit to Deb at some point. But only if they have sorted out their own feelings and how they want their relationship and not before.

and maybe I'll do a separate playthrough just to see that hot sex ...

 

[jufot]

Which leads me to another point: I hope the dev brings up and discuss negatives with all these kinks. How do you deal with someone who is very much not pleased with your exhibitionism? Or takes a video and uploads it to the internet? I mean, the dev has already brought up the sexual mismatch between Deb and Carl, but I feel that is mostly used as a reason for MC to get close to Deb.

Speaking of negatives, I'd also like to see some serious consequences for pursuing Jen. It's doubly important given MC's history. At an absolute minimum, I'd expect him to recognize that he's a shit psychologist who should not be allowed anywhere near vulnerable people, and resign. It would be even better if he was caught, disciplined and perhaps fired for it.

But I know this is just wishful thinking. Most (all?) VN devs seem to think that having consequences for one's actions is "punishing the player," so they never do it. That sounds ridiculous to me, but I'm not a dev, so...

 

[bacienvu88]

Speaking of negatives, I'd also like to see some serious consequences for pursuing Jen. It's doubly important given MC's history. At an absolute minimum, I'd expect him to recognize that he's a shit psychologist who should not be allowed anywhere near vulnerable people, and resign. It would be even better if he was caught, disciplined and perhaps fired for it.

If nothing else, Kim would probably jump at the chance to blackmail him further ...

But I know this is just wishful thinking. Most (all?) VN devs seem to think that having consequences for one's actions is "punishing the player," so they never do it. That sounds ridiculous to me, but I'm not a dev, so...

Yeah. One thing I really like in stories is when there is a major setback for the MC. And not the standard of the damsel getting in a distressing situation. But in the relationships themselves. A fight and then reconciliation. Or something else that shakes the foundation for the MC or his partner. Emma in NiF is a bit like that, but there we haven't got into a relationship yet, so it isn't much of a setback from the player perspective. I would really like to see a VN do a on-off relationship well, where MC and partner frequently break up and then get back together a week later.

On another note I think VN:s are really harsh in term of second chances. If MC chooses the wrong option or don't collect enough love points or whatever you are cut off from any other content with that LI. There is never a case of them deciding to stay friends or not even talking to each other and later find out that they want to try being more than friend.

 

[jufot]

If nothing else, Kim would probably jump at the chance to blackmail him further ...

That's a great idea and you should post it on the game thread

I would really like to see a VN do a on-off relationship well, where MC and partner frequently break up and then get back together a week later.

You can add further drama

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On another note I think VN:s are really harsh in term of second chances. If MC chooses the wrong option or don't collect enough love points or whatever you are cut off from any other content with that LI. There is never a case of them deciding to stay friends or not even talking to each other and later find out that they want to try.

This is one of the reasons I like Intertwined, actually. You can have good, deep friendships with LIs (except Alexis) you're not romantically involved with.

And I also find actual sex in public to be a bit rude to other people.

Your comment suddenly reminded me of

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and I just had to share

 

[Tlaero]

On another note I think VN:s are really harsh in term of second chances. If MC chooses the wrong option or don't collect enough love points or whatever you are cut off from any other content with that LI. There is never a case of them deciding to stay friends or not even talking to each other and later find out that they want to try being more than friend.

A challenge with second chances is that allowing that really just means lowering the "difficulty" level. If you don't have to make the "right" choices, then where's the reward for making the "right" choices? So, as a dev, we have only a few options.

1) Make the screwup happen regardless of the player's choices. Either have it happen before the game started (reasonable) or have the MC make bad choices in the game against the player's will and have the player's throw their laptops out the window.
2) Make the screwup happen if you don't get enough points, but give an option to get back together if you fly straight from then on, resulting in an ending that is as good as if you get enough points in the first place. I guess we could call this, "Easy mode."
3) Same as 2, but you get a less good ending than if you made all the right choices. Most players will hate this, because when they realize that they did it "wrong" they'll be angry that they had to start over. And, if the less good ending is content they don't see if they do it right, then people will really hate being "forced" to play wrong to see that content. (Maybe put it in a gallery... )
4) Make it so that you actually do BETTER by pissing off your LI then getting back together. I fundamentally don't agree that mistreating someone and then treating them well results in a stronger relationship than consistently treating them well. I certainly wouldn't enjoy a game that made me do this, but other people might.

Tlaero

 

[realjitter]

My favourite remains Deb. She is in a deeply frustrating sexual mismatch situation with her boyfriend. With his full permission, you can engage in some of the best femdom on F95 with her

Oh I don't know about that statement=)

I also went for Deb, but i declined her first offer with her husband. My first scene with her was the foot fetish one which felt abit awkward to be honest because they basically instantly switch into Mistress/Slave mode like as if they've done that for many years already. So yeah, i didn't exactly blow my mind or anything . Which is fine of course...I don't mind...

Femdom in general is a pretty complex topic to write about especially in a "story first" AVN. In fact, i haven't found a single femdom game on this site that really impressed me personally. Most of them, even the most popular ones here, just feel like they're trying to throw as many fetishes as possible at you instead of focussing on the most important (at least for me) part which is the relationship between the dominant and submissive person...

Nothing is Forever excluded of course