Recommending Story-first games

[Birdnman993]

How is someone taking the forum too seriously?

 

[FatGiant]

Should I start adding "haha" "jk" "" next to every joke I make?
Guys we're on the internet. Can we stop pretending ffs. Mods aren't dumb, they can differentiate between satire. Otherwise they wouldn't be moderating.

Maybe you get differential treatment, wouldn't surprise me, but I have been warned and sanctioned for a lot less. A LOT less.

All it really takes is someone feeling butthurt and complain about you threatening to kill them. Do what you feel is correct though, you may be old enough to know what you are doing.

Peace

 

[MrPocketRocket]

A derail on top of a derail! How about we let the moderators worry about what's what and move on.

Just tried Race of Life for the first time and really enjoyed it. How's that for segue.

 

[jufot]

Just tried Race of Life for the first time and really enjoyed it. How's that for segue.

Oh, this one has a particularly rich discussion history on this thread. The overall impression is... less than flattering.

 

[Dessolos]

A derail on top of a derail! How about we let the moderators worry about what's what and move on.

Just tried Race of Life for the first time and really enjoyed it. How's that for segue.

Yeah when I first played that game it was one of the first that gave me a feeling that it was really story focus and put relationship / character building and lewds in the backseat ( expect for Veronica lewds). I didn't read all or recall why some don't like it in this thread unless it's issues with starting off with Veronica as a GF or the MC being a cheater. With that said while I do personally consider it story first to me I can kind of see why it wouldn't make the list here even tho I do disagree with it. As some of the the lewds especially one in the recent update comes across very porny or make zero sense why the MC would risk everything just for sex. It isn't anything new to AVN's in general and none of them feel too ridiculous or over the top to me not like there is alot of it.

 

[MrPocketRocket]

Oh, this one has a particularly rich discussion history on this thread. The overall impression is... less than flattering.

I guess I'll go back and read the reactions. To me the genre is so full of people taking short cuts and AVNs pretending to have a story AND plot when in fact it's only character development...and those would have a hard time finding their way to becoming a cheap Lifetime Movie. Not going to throw any dev under the bus as I think that is bad form, but please try out an actual story. I also think I view this genre a little differently. Many AVNs struggle to keep me entertained and that generally requires a mix of good things going on with characters/story/plot. BUT the genre certainly leaves the door open to impress. Anyhow, I like fun. Which is what I aim to do in my own ANV.

 

[365 others]

Oh, this one has a particularly rich discussion history on this thread. The overall impression is... less than flattering.

I just read a part of it... too much discussion about body hair.
What are your thoughts on that game? I see the average rating as 4.5 stars.

 

[MrPocketRocket]

With that said while I do personally consider it story first to me I can kind of see why it wouldn't make the list here even tho I do disagree with it. As some of the the lewds especially one in the recent update comes across very porny or make zero sense why the MC would risk everything just for sex. It isn't anything new to AVN's in general and none of them feel too ridiculous or over the top to me not like there is alot of it.

Funny you should mention logic when it comes to sex;-) There has been presidents risking everything for some tail. I don't think anyone can argue with the fact that men (mostly, but not always) will do stupid shit for sex. Regardless Race of Life entertained me and that's my gold standard...being entertained that is.

 

[Sunzuut]

I played SG when it first came out, when Ocean was having his friend make the renders for it.

But I eventually dropped it, and Ocean's other game too, Where it All Began, for the same reasons.

Ocean is his own worst enemy. He's reworked things so many times and both games have a huge scope. And those things combined means there is basically a 0% chance he'll actually finish either one of them. I doubt he'll even get halfway. You can search for my posts in the WIAB thread, things I said years ago are still true the last time I checked. He's a pretty hardcore perfectionist.

As for the writing/story. For me, both games try to be "story first". But I feel his interpretation of story first basically boils down to not having NSFW content. Because to me, his actual writing is too melodramatic and he reworks things so much you can pretty easily get things confused.

I read through this and the recent mention of Tyrion Lannister and immediately thought of George R. R. Martin.

GRRM is notorious for rewriting his work over and over to the point that we've been waiting 14 years for his latest book with no end in sight, on top of the promise of a book after that before the story is finished.

I got burned by GRRM and full expect that series to never be finished. In the same way, I'm also reluctant to dive into massive yet slowly updated games like SG while there are others that are being regularly updated because I know that I probably won't ever see the resolution.

Plus, I like the sexual payoff and some of these build up the slow burn for years without actually giving it to you.

 

[raynarnab]

I read through this and the recent mention of Tyrion Lannister and immediately thought of George R. R. Martin.

GRRM is notorious for rewriting his work over and over to the point that we've been waiting 14 years for his latest book with no end in sight, on top of the promise of a book after that before the story is finished.

I got burned by GRRM and full expect that series to never be finished. In the same way, I'm also reluctant to dive into massive yet slowly updated games like SG while there are others that are being regularly updated because I know that I probably won't ever see the resolution.

I understand why you feel burned by GRRM, I used to feel the same way. But I think over time I have come to appreciate that I enjoyed the fact that GRRM did manage to create a universe that I could get lost in. I could be shocked at the red wedding, cheer for the Starks and appreciate the nuance of a character like Tyrion. My world has been far more enriched knowing GRRM did create a universe rather than have never read it at all. I think at a certain point, we all need to practice the art of letting go and being able to enjoy the fact that we managed to get lost in a media that made our world for a short period of time.

So enjoy the story and the experience of SG, afterwhich be comfortable with letting go and moving onto another media that will continue you enrich your life. Life is all about experiencing many things!

 

[jamdan]

I read through this and the recent mention of Tyrion Lannister and immediately thought of George R. R. Martin.

GRRM is notorious for rewriting his work over and over to the point that we've been waiting 14 years for his latest book with no end in sight, on top of the promise of a book after that before the story is finished.

I got burned by GRRM and full expect that series to never be finished. In the same way, I'm also reluctant to dive into massive yet slowly updated games like SG while there are others that are being regularly updated because I know that I probably won't ever see the resolution.

Plus, I like the sexual payoff and some of these build up the slow burn for years without actually giving it to you.

GRRM and Ocean aren't really comparable. GRRM is an author and has already completed several books. You may not be happy with the pace, but he does finish things. Eventually.

Ocean meanwhile has never finished a game, or even gotten halfway. Mostly due to his own doing.

I said once, I believe I said it in the WIAB thread. Ocean is trying to do the quantity of Dr. PinkCake and the art quality of Philly. With two games at the same time.

I understand the idea of "Just enjoy the ride while it lasts". I do that for basically all the other games I play from developers who don't have a track record of completing their games. Only a small number of games are completed. The rest will be abandoned, either from any number of development reasons or in some cases, the dev literally dying. (Lexi, an old abandoned game that was one of my favorites, and then the dev died)

But I can still enjoy them even though I don't expect them to be completed. I like the characters. I like the story. They were fun while they lasted. Even though the ride ended before I wanted, at least the same story and characters were there until the end.

But I can't do that with games that get reworked to death. The story and characters change so much it breaks any attachment or feelings towards them. They may have the same name, but they aren't the same person. I also don't feel invested in the plot. I don't feel the need to do any analysis or easter egg hunting for a story I expect to be scrapped and rewritten again.

So at a certain point, I don't want to jump on a rollercoaster if I know the rollercoaster is going to change into a water slide, then into a slingshot jump thingy, then a zip-line. By that point, I've puked my guts out and just want to ride the little train with the kids.

 

[yossa999]

GRRM and Ocean aren't really comparable. GRRM is an author and has already completed several books. You may not be happy with the pace, but he does finish things. Eventually.

Ocean meanwhile has never finished a game, or even gotten halfway. Mostly due to his own doing.

I said once, I believe I said it in the WIAB thread. Ocean is trying to do the quantity of Dr. PinkCake and the art quality of Philly. With two games at the same time.

I understand the idea of "Just enjoy the ride while it lasts". I do that for basically all the other games I play from developers who don't have a track record of completing their games. Only a small number of games are completed. The rest will be abandoned, either from any number of development reasons or in some cases, the dev literally dying. (Lexi, an old abandoned game that was one of my favorites, and then the dev died)

But I can still enjoy them even though I don't expect them to be completed. I like the characters. I like the story. They were fun while they lasted. Even though the ride ended before I wanted, at least the same story and characters were there until the end.

But I can't do that with games that get reworked to death. The story and characters change so much it breaks any attachment or feelings towards them. They may have the same name, but they aren't the same person. I also don't feel invested in the plot. I don't feel the need to do any analysis or easter egg hunting for a story I expect to be scrapped and rewritten again.

So at a certain point, I don't want to jump on a rollercoaster if I know the rollercoaster is going to change into a water slide, then into a slingshot jump thingy, then a zip-line. By that point, I've puked my guts out and just want to ride the little train with the kids.

But the thing is, that Ocean finished the rework, released the first season on Steam, GoG and Epic as he wanted, and is moving on. While you still can't let it go. Just an observation.

To each their own I suppose. To you changes in the story and character break any attachment or feelings towards them, to me these were iterative improvements that made the story better and characters deeper, not to speaking about the outdated visual part of the old chapters that was fixed. These are the same characters that I liked before the rework, just shown from a slightly different angle and with more details. I'm glad the "dark path" was completely left out of the story, never liked the psychopathic jerk of MC he could become accroding to the player's choices in the old version.

Those people who have recently discovered SG on Steam have had no such experience, so they can see and appreciate the game with fresh eyes. Judging by the reviews, most people have liked it so far.

But who knows what will happen tomorrow. If a game is a "long-term investment of your time and affection" and not just a fun time and a good experience, SG is probably not an asset worth investing in.

 

[MrPocketRocket]

I understand why you feel burned by GRRM, I used to feel the same way. But I think over time I have come to appreciate that I enjoyed the fact that GRRM did manage to create a universe that I could get lost in. I could be shocked at the red wedding, cheer for the Starks and appreciate the nuance of a character like Tyrion. My world has been far more enriched knowing GRRM did create a universe rather than have never read it at all. I think at a certain point, we all need to practice the art of letting go and being able to enjoy the fact that we managed to get lost in a media that made our world for a short period of time.

So enjoy the story and the experience of SG, afterwhich be comfortable with letting go and moving onto another media that will continue you enrich your life. Life is all about experiencing many things!

To have this discussion is a little crazy. You mention Ocean and GRRM in the same sentence? One who is an accomplished writer and the other who couldn't put a plot together if his life depended on it. I may have said I wasn't going to throw any devs under the bus, but ocean gets outsized positive reactions...so I don't feel bad making a little jab. Ocean obviously could thrive in this environment (and does despite himself), all character development and love sick teen angst. But not exactly the same as writing a series of coherent (and massive) novels. Period.

 

[Sunzuut]

To have this discussion is a little crazy. You mention Ocean and GRRM in the same sentence? One who is an accomplished writer and the other who couldn't put a plot together if his life depended on it.

Credit where it's due, GRRM has published dozens of novels and is by all accounts a very, very accomplishments author.

But he has, quite literally, lost the plot with ASOIAF. The first three books came out within 2 years of each other and after that he lost all ability to deliver and when he does he goes into long tangents to the story that didn't advance the plot but built the world out. Look at the Brienne chapters in the latest book, it's a lore dump of backstory and unnecessary world building of events from 30 years before but doesn't actually affect the main plot in any way. He could have cut all that out and not a single thing would have changed.

You can't rework a published book in the same way you can rework an in development game, but I would count devoting a significant chunk of your page count to the historical significance of an apple orchard 30 years ago to be bloat.

He started really good, but at this point he isn't making any progress. I am a completionist and like playing games to death before moving on from them and never returning. I just can't see myself getting that heavily invested in a game that has an expected completion date of 2050 and also a tendency to rewrite everything that's already happened. Same as I won't start reading a book series where the author can't get a book out within a decade.

So I mainly go for completed games if I can, or if not, I go for games that are relatively linear so I can just pick up where I left off later.

 

[raynarnab]

To have this discussion is a little crazy. You mention Ocean and GRRM in the same sentence?

I think you missed the point of my post if you think I was comparing Ocean in the same quality on par with GRRM. The point is to appreciate the adventure for any piece of work even if it is unfinished. Your life can still be enriched by it.

 

[MrPocketRocket]

I think you missed the point of my post if you think I was comparing Ocean in the same quality on par with GRRM. The point is to appreciate the adventure for any piece of work even if it is unfinished. Your life can still be enriched by it.

No I get it.

 

[365 others]

No I get it.

Not that I disagree with your opinion, but out of curiosity.... who would be the dev you consider a good enough writer to compare with GRRM? Or what dev would you say writes the best stories?

 

[yossa999]

Not that I disagree with your opinion, but out of curiosity.... who would be the dev you consider a good enough writer to compare with GRRM? Or what dev would you say writes the best stories?

 

[MrPocketRocket]

Not that I disagree with your opinion, but out of curiosity.... who would be the dev you consider a good enough writer to compare with GRRM? Or what dev would you say writes the best stories?

And it is just that, my opinion, nothing more. To answer your question though, I don't think there is a single dev that should be compared to GRRM (whether its for writing or long development time), it's just not a fair/good comparison. There are a few that do a good job at entertaining me though. Ripples by

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tells an interesting story and has a plot. New Antioch by

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has some really good dialogue and as I mentioned above, Race of Life by

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entertained me.

That said, there is no AVN with the complexity to it's story of any novel you will find in your bookstore. What is a bookstore you ask? Well, once upon a time there were bookstores AND record stores. Nobody knows if they were real life locations or if they are just mythical occurrences like Olympus and Atlantis.

 

[desmosome]

I just found this game called The Last Challenge and I think some of you here should definitely try it despite it being just one chapter out for now.

For me, "this game's characters feels like actual people" is extremely rare in AVN because most AVN game I've played, when the devs write characters or put their characters in events, those characters don't have a unique voice. The characters speak their lines and they may have a character archetype but by and large the characters are interchangeable with other games.

Character archetype A of Game A is interchangeable to Character archetype A of Game B, and C, D.

Deluca Family is not like that.

I remember a lot of Deluca Family's character names even until now, maybe 1 year+ after I last played their game because Deluca Family main character's have their own unique voices, they feel like actual people. For Deluca Family, absurd people, but still people nonetheless.

I found this to be the same with The Last Challenge.

The dev has a talent on writing scenes that display his character's personality and voices through their interactions. The characters in their game feels like actual person that have their own thoughts, their own slight depth, and the way each of them acts in situations is how you would expect "that type of person" would react in "that type of situations".

It's really great, some of you all should try it.

And unlike Deluca Family, this game has a lot more characters being put in the scenes so to me that highlight dev talent even more.

I don't know about story-first because it's just 1 chapter but through the very few events so far that we played, many of these characters have their own personality shown through those very few scenes we saw.

The combination of how few scenes is currently available, how many characters appear in those scenes and through that showing us these characters all have voices is pretty amazing. I really appreciate how efficient the dev can show those characters.

There are many famous games in this site, even acclaimed ones that I feel is not good at showing their characters voices.
Usually I don't remember the names of the characters some weeks after I play them, cuz they are interchangeable.

It's really rare for me to still remember characters names long after playing, and usually I remember those character names because they feel like people.

And The Last Challenge manage to show those characters and make them feel like people
Highly recommend checking their chapter 1

I don't have as much time to play through VNs these days, let alone story-first ones that are not for fapping, but I occasionally still check out this thread. I played The Last Challenge and it was quite unique and well written.

It's true that most devs fail to write believable characters. Here, there are a lot of characters but they are all rather fleshed out and behave in ways that doesn't take you out of a scene. The details really bring out their personality and group dynamics. And all this through organic interactions among the characters in long (LONG) scenes. I'm not talking about sex scenes, but like a scene in a film. You can read up on the biography to learn a bit more about their backgrounds and relationships among each other, but by and large, they are just interacting and we pick up more about them as it comes up in conversations (and your choices could reveal more or less about them to the player).

The initial set up about a pandemic cutting off a town for a decade is a bit farfetched, but we don't know the specifics of it yet. Maybe there could be a plausible explanation. But even if it's just an outlandish set up, the characters that inhabit this world behave realistically given the situation they are in. As group that lived and worked together for 10 years starting from uni, there are a lot things going on between them. They all pretty much know everything about each other. And they behave as college kids that were stuck in college for 10 years would behave.

Also, I'm glad to see a dev that tackles relationship webs between a large group of young people without worrying about what some NTR-phobic idiot might say. Others have relationships, your friend gets some too. And it's canon that the MC and his buddy spitroasted some chicks over the years lol. This is all done without a single indulgence of NTR vibes or pandering to harem sensibilities. That's pretty rare.

I guess the only one that could behave a bit off is the MC, since the dev has given choices that range from rapey, intimidating, humorous, to good guy. I'd say the default MC, as he is written in parts that are not tied to a choice, is an honorable Chad, so some of the more fucked up choices might seem uncharacteristic. Such is the fate of many MCs in VNs though since it's a tall order to write multiple scripts accounting for all types of MCs at all times. They have to come up with a baseline behavior of the MC, and it often conflicts with the more extreme choices.

But I don't know if it will be story first. We got to know a bunch of characters on the bus ride home, but once they get home, everyone got their own lives and we will certainly be introduced to many more characters. What is the scope of the narrative? It could be unsustainable, and I don't know what the dev has planned.