VN Ren'Py STWA: Unbroken [Pt. 7] [STWAdev]

[Sin_Mechero]

Playing through this game after having finished "The Author"... I'm having a hard time to connect to the MC.

It doesn't help that we only get to know what makes the MC tick through sparse flashbacks and other people telling the MC how they see him. In story-heavy games like this, I try to crawl in the MC's skin and make choices based on what I learned about him. All was fine, until Elspeth's pool heart-to-heart.
She changed the MC from a chill guy who loves self-deprecating humor, to someone haunted by his own demons, and too afraid to face them. While it was clear from the start that the MC struggles with trauma, I thought he was working through it in his own pace. Valentine is good with the ladies. He's not afraid of commitment, or he never would've started training Amrit or co-found The Centre.

In real life, I absolutely hate people who take what they know of you, and use it against you. Elspeth is like this. In this playthrough I've been open with her, but she remains closed off and playing games. At the pool, I wanted to (be able to) tell her to fuck off. She doesn't get to hold Valentine's trauma over him. She has blood on her hands, and she's helping people because she thinks this will absolve her. Before telling Valentine what to do, she should face her own demons. Or, at least, be as open with Valentine as she wants him to be. It doesn't seem to me that Valentine is hurting by what he chose to do during his enlistment. Instead, he's hurting from Davis' actions and betrayal, which likely forced his hand. (Though at the start of chapter 6, we STILL don't know what that is exactly.)
However, Elspeth, as a pacifist is haunted by the blood on her hands. She's projecting this on Valentine (murderer).

I kinda hate her. Ever since that talk, I've been pushing people away and declined all romantic advances, except for Kana. Why Kana? She's a safe choice because she doesn't have any history with Valentine. Everyone else knows more about Valentine than the player does. Vi manipulates/blackmails Valentine into taking her to Sheffield. Why couldn't she take 'no' for an answer, and more importantly, respect him and his choice to not want his birthday to be known?

/rant, I guess.

I respect that you like Kana, as everyone has their own tastes.
Maybe I'm wrong, because it's not clear to me why Els is spying on the mc.
But I think she's not using what she knows against you, she's using it for the benefit of the mc, to make him react. So that he finally takes the steps he needs to recover.
At this moment the only ones who really know the mc is Vi and Els (they are basically the same, they have the same problems, but she is ahead in recovery), and in my opinion they are the ones who are making him realise that he needs help.
I advise you to play this chapter with their paths, I think it will give you more than one answer.

 

[Coaxmetal]

Ever since that talk, I've been pushing people away and declined all romantic advances, except for Kana. Why Kana? She's a safe choice because she doesn't have any history with Valentine.

This is kinda funny because you’re roleplaying a “damaged” Valentine perfectly. Push everyone away who gets too close. Go for the easy ones who don’t know the real Valentine… yet. Rinse and repeat.

I thought the discussion at the pool was brilliant. Els sees through your bs and tries to talk to the “real” Valentine. Not using it against you. She is in the same boat.

 

[TimHawk]

The MC isn't afraid of a romantic commitment, he is incapable of it, because he still can't let go of Zaina. He even says as much when he and Alistar step outside to discuss Vi and Ines staying with them for good. The MC can't even have someone say her name out loud without falling apart, so that needs to be resolved first for the MC to enter a new commited relationship; he can't start something new with a Ghost still hovering over him.

As for Els, I always knew that something is seriously wrong with her, just not what exactly. Part 6 helped a lot in honing in on what exactly that is though.

We get the first "warning" when Els and the MC go to the movies and the MC has a conversation with Zaina, who is obviously dead, so he is really talking to his subconscious.

"She's perfect, or that's what she wants people to see." and then the one word that kinda sets the tone as far as Els is concerned "Dangerous.". The MC with his military background calling her dangerous always stuck with me, but I never could put it together.

I thought we need to know what trauma Els has suffered to really get a grip on her, but during part 6 it all started to make sense. She isn't reliving some trauma when we see her covered in blood, she is fantasizing, drawn back to the memory of violence.

We've all been out with buddies and some other dudes gave you some looks and everyone knew, one wrong word and shit will go down. The only way it becomes unavoidable by default, is if any girl/woman opens her mouth, then there is literally no way a bunch of intoxicated guys will back down and the situation resolves peacefully. So Els, while standing next to the undefeated Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight contender, decides to take the lead and makes 100% sure the fight is gonna happen and then later even admits that it felt really good.

Then of course the bite while kissing, a bit too on the nose but maybe the developer wanted to check how many players will look past El's visuals to see the monster lurking below; she "just" wanted to taste his blood.

The whole pacifist shtick is not because she can't stand violence, her entire backstory contradicts that on multiple counts, it's because she's afraid that she loses control of herself when she is near violence. During the MC's fight, she doesn't give a single word of encouragement or motivation, instead the only time she opens her mouth is when she comments on the opponents injuries, that's where her attention is at.

Her deepest fear is losing control, so whenever that happens, like flying on an airplace, the new staff changing things at the center or a meeting with her dad, the face she puts on starts to crumble and she panics and starts to fantasize about her violent memories.

I never understood why Els first said to Alistair and then to Vi that she believes the MC is the only one that could "really understand her", but now that makes a lot more sense. She knows the MC has killed many people, was in several near-death situations, and has seen the darkest side of humanity. Els believes that she is so broken, that it takes someone with the MC's experiences, to not run away and be disgusted when she tells him the truth.

I have no doubt that there will be an Els ending, but I really wonder if there will be an Els happy ending or if the developer has some really fucked up shit in his mind.

 

[Quetzzz]

Maybe I'm wrong, because it's not clear to me why Els is spying on the mc.

If she's indeed behind the "hack", then I hope we'll get the option to tell her to fuck off.

But I think she's not using what she knows against you, she's using it for the benefit of the mc, to make him react. So that he finally takes the steps he needs to recover.

That's a distinction without a difference. The point is, she isn't reciprocating. My MC has been open and honest with her, she's been nothing but evasive. She makes the MC work for her trust, but doesn't give any in return.
If someone with trauma isn't ready to open up, then forcing them just damages them more.

At this moment the only ones who really know the mc is Vi and Els (they are basically the same, they have the same problems, but she is ahead in recovery), and in my opinion they are the ones who are making him realise that he needs help.

McNab knows the MC and his military trauma. Vi knows about MC's past (her scars), by extension Ines does as well. Amrit knows quite a bit as well. Els might know of Valentine, but from the start of the game it didn't appear like they had a close bond. More like a working relationship. Vi doesn't really push the MC towards getting help, since she's been the one needing his support. Also, Vi propositioning MC after saying "Happy Birthday" reminded me how clueless she really is. Kana is really the only one who lets Valentine be Valentine.

I don't agree that Els is ahead of Valentine in recovery. She has hallucinations where she sees herself being bloodied. While Valentine puts up walls through humor and self-deprication, her walls are secrecy and not allowing people to get to know the real her. Because, god forbid, someone might do what she does, and use her actions/experiences against her.

This is kinda funny because you’re roleplaying a “damaged” Valentine perfectly. Push everyone away who gets too close. Go for the easy ones who don’t know the real Valentine… yet. Rinse and repeat.

Right, and that's what I have to do, because the story doesn't let me express that in any other way. I've been giving Els the cold shoulder, but sadly the game doesn't register that. Instead, the one-sided heart-to-heart had Valentine do a 180. Except, my Valentine did say he wanted something more long-term with Kana, he's not using her to run away. Of course, I still don't know why MC became a player and decided months ago to stop sleeping around, so I don't know if this actually fits.

Though this last point is probably my main criticism of the game. I actually think I'd enjoy this story more if it didn't have choices, so STWA could just tell Valentine's story, including his inner monologue. Having the choices and not the knowledge just makes the experience frustrating, because the inner monologue and interpretation is left up to the player. Again, interpretation without knowing the full context.

I thought the discussion at the pool was brilliant. Els sees through your bs and tries to talk to the “real” Valentine. Not using it against you. She is in the same boat.

She does see through him, and the way she went about it is wrong. Yes, it was important that she called him out, but getting naked came across as manipulative. The kiss was even worse timing. It turned what could've been a confrontation for the benefit of Valentine into her seducing him. What's the message here? Should Valentine "heal", so he can get in her pants?

"I kissed you because I desired a kiss."
"I entice you to come to group because I think you need it."
This is bullshit. Her asking Valentine to go to group would've been more effective as the aftermath of a yelling match, emotions laid bare. Not her coming on to him, and changing the tone of the confrontation.

 

[Sin_Mechero]

The MC isn't afraid of a romantic commitment, he is incapable of it, because he still can't let go of Zaina. He even says as much when he and Alistar step outside to discuss Vi and Ines staying with them for good. The MC can't even have someone say her name out loud without falling apart, so that needs to be resolved first for the MC to enter a new commited relationship; he can't start something new with a Ghost still hovering over him.

As for Els, I always knew that something is seriously wrong with her, just not what exactly. Part 6 helped a lot in honing in on what exactly that is though.

We get the first "warning" when Els and the MC go to the movies and the MC has a conversation with Zaina, who is obviously dead, so he is really talking to his subconscious.

"She's perfect, or that's what she wants people to see." and then the one word that kinda sets the tone as far as Els is concerned "Dangerous.". The MC with his military background calling her dangerous always stuck with me, but I never could put it together.

I thought we need to know what trauma Els has suffered to really get a grip on her, but during part 6 it all started to make sense. She isn't reliving some trauma when we see her covered in blood, she is fantasizing, drawn back to the memory of violence.

We've all been out with buddies and some other dudes gave you some looks and everyone knew, one wrong word and shit will go down. The only way it becomes unavoidable by default, is if any girl/woman opens her mouth, then there is literally no way a bunch of intoxicated guys will back down and the situation resolves peacefully. So Els, while standing next to the undefeated Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight contender, decides to take the lead and makes 100% sure the fight is gonna happen and then later even admits that it felt really good.

Then of course the bite while kissing, a bit too on the nose but maybe the developer wanted to check how many players will look past El's visuals to see the monster lurking below; she "just" wanted to taste his blood.

The whole pacifist shtick is not because she can't stand violence, her entire backstory contradicts that on multiple counts, it's because she's afraid that she loses control of herself when she is near violence. During the MC's fight, she doesn't give a single word of encouragement or motivation, instead the only time she opens her mouth is when she comments on the opponents injuries, that's where her attention is at.

Her deepest fear is losing control, so whenever that happens, like flying on an airplace, the new staff changing things at the center or a meeting with her dad, the face she puts on starts to crumble and she panics and starts to fantasize about her violent memories.

I never understood why Els first said to Alistair and then to Vi that she believes the MC is the only one that could "really understand her", but now that makes a lot more sense. She knows the MC has killed many people, was in several near-death situations, and has seen the darkest side of humanity. Els believes that she is so broken, that it takes someone with the MC's experiences, to not run away and be disgusted when she tells him the truth.

I have no doubt that there will be an Els ending, but I really wonder if there will be an Els happy ending or if the developer has some really fucked up shit in his mind.

The warning in the cinema, I think, is because she is perfect for the good, as well as the bad. Els has the same or more training than you, militarily speaking. She has a higher rank than you and a higher intelligence accreditation. It's just as hard to really know what Els thinks as it is to know what the mc thinks. And she has much more money and contacts than the mc, so she is very dangerous.
I agree that her biggest fear is losing control and that the pacifist facade is simply a defence mechanism.
I get the feeling she's just avoiding it so she doesn't remember her dead friend or her trauma. But she likes it as much as the mc, fighting makes them feel alive.

 

[Quetzzz]

(Replying to a post that appeared after I posted my earlier reply, I'm not sure if I should merge this with that reply or not)

The MC isn't afraid of a romantic commitment, he is incapable of it, because he still can't let go of Zaina. He even says as much when he and Alistar step outside to discuss Vi and Ines staying with them for good. The MC can't even have someone say her name out loud without falling apart, so that needs to be resolved first for the MC to enter a new commited relationship; he can't start something new with a Ghost still hovering over him.

Would've been good to know before any relationship talk happened in the game. I'm slowly piecing together the importance of Zaina, I'm just now at the flashback with the ring. But, I already told Kana that she'd be the only one and that I want to commit when she's ready.

"She's perfect, or that's what she wants people to see." and then the one word that kinda sets the tone as far as Els is concerned "Dangerous.". The MC with his military background calling her dangerous always stuck with me, but I never could put it together.

I think I picked this up a bit earlier. Els' flashbacks where she sees herself bloodied were a strong hint. She wasn't pushing papers during her service. I'm sure the intelligence she handled killed a lot of people, even by proxy.

I thought we need to know what trauma Els has suffered to really get a grip on her, but during part 6 it all started to make sense. She isn't reliving some trauma when we see her covered in blood, she is fantasizing, drawn back to the memory of violence.

I'm going to stop reading your comment and will come back to it after I finished Chapter 6. xD

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

The MC isn't afraid of a romantic commitment, he is incapable of it, because he still can't let go of Zaina. He even says as much when he and Alistar step outside to discuss Vi and Ines staying with them for good. The MC can't even have someone say her name out loud without falling apart, so that needs to be resolved first for the MC to enter a new commited relationship; he can't start something new with a Ghost still hovering over him.

As for Els, I always knew that something is seriously wrong with her, just not what exactly. Part 6 helped a lot in honing in on what exactly that is though.

We get the first "warning" when Els and the MC go to the movies and the MC has a conversation with Zaina, who is obviously dead, so he is really talking to his subconscious.

"She's perfect, or that's what she wants people to see." and then the one word that kinda sets the tone as far as Els is concerned "Dangerous.". The MC with his military background calling her dangerous always stuck with me, but I never could put it together.

I thought we need to know what trauma Els has suffered to really get a grip on her, but during part 6 it all started to make sense. She isn't reliving some trauma when we see her covered in blood, she is fantasizing, drawn back to the memory of violence.

We've all been out with buddies and some other dudes gave you some looks and everyone knew, one wrong word and shit will go down. The only way it becomes unavoidable by default, is if any girl/woman opens her mouth, then there is literally no way a bunch of intoxicated guys will back down and the situation resolves peacefully. So Els, while standing next to the undefeated Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight contender, decides to take the lead and makes 100% sure the fight is gonna happen and then later even admits that it felt really good.

Then of course the bite while kissing, a bit too on the nose but maybe the developer wanted to check how many players will look past El's visuals to see the monster lurking below; she "just" wanted to taste his blood.

The whole pacifist shtick is not because she can't stand violence, her entire backstory contradicts that on multiple counts, it's because she's afraid that she loses control of herself when she is near violence. During the MC's fight, she doesn't give a single word of encouragement or motivation, instead the only time she opens her mouth is when she comments on the opponents injuries, that's where her attention is at.

Her deepest fear is losing control, so whenever that happens, like flying on an airplace, the new staff changing things at the center or a meeting with her dad, the face she puts on starts to crumble and she panics and starts to fantasize about her violent memories.

I never understood why Els first said to Alistair and then to Vi that she believes the MC is the only one that could "really understand her", but now that makes a lot more sense. She knows the MC has killed many people, was in several near-death situations, and has seen the darkest side of humanity. Els believes that she is so broken, that it takes someone with the MC's experiences, to not run away and be disgusted when she tells him the truth.

I have no doubt that there will be an Els ending, but I really wonder if there will be an Els happy ending or if the developer has some really fucked up shit in his mind.

More or less same take I got from Els. I understood what she was at the pool scene and when you add manipulative side of her, I think she is a hard pass.

 

[Bombmaster]

More or less same take I got from Els. I understood what she was at the pool scene and when you add manipulative side of her, I think she is a hard pass.

The dead friend, Davis? If I'm remembering his name right is a very fun dynamic talking in your head about her if you go full infamy route.

I do think she is the right Li for the infamy Valentine.

 

[Sin_Mechero]

If she's indeed behind the "hack", then I hope we'll get the option to tell her to fuck off.

I don't like it, but I see it as the mc, and he just knows he's being spied on, but he doesn't know who. We still don't know the purpose of this.

That's a distinction without a difference. The point is, she isn't reciprocating. My MC has been open and honest with her, she's been nothing but evasive. She makes the MC work for her trust, but doesn't give any in return.
If someone with trauma isn't ready to open up, then forcing them just damages them more.

It's not her thing. They both behave the same towards each other. In the swimming pool, for example, it is Mc who lowers the mood. Play this chapter, she has already started to open up little by little. For me it's the thing about this relationship, they are practically the same.

McNab knows the MC and his military trauma. Vi knows about MC's past (her scars), by extension Ines does as well. Amrit knows quite a bit as well. Els might know of Valentine, but from the start of the game it didn't appear like they had a close bond. More like a working relationship. Vi doesn't really push the MC towards getting help, since she's been the one needing his support. Also, Vi propositioning MC after saying "Happy Birthday" reminded me how clueless she really is. Kana is really the only one who lets Valentine be Valentine.

I don't agree that Els is ahead of Valentine in recovery. She has hallucinations where she sees herself being bloodied. While Valentine puts up walls through humor and self-deprication, her walls are secrecy and not allowing people to get to know the real her. Because, god forbid, someone might do what she does, and use her actions/experiences against her.

I am talking about the girls and only those who know first hand what it is like. not from what they have been told like Ines. Mcnab knows him too. I didn't mean Vi knows the events of mc's life. Vi knows mc's real personality (what he's like), because she's been so close to him in the past. And she tells mc that he doesn't behave the way he really is, and that she knows you're not like that.

Els is ahead of him in recovery. Even though she keeps having hallucinations, The mc too, talks to his ex and Davis. They're both fucked up, but she can control it better, let's put it that way.
I don't want to change your opinion, but without playing her paths you don't have all the info.
Play them and then comment on them.

 

[RoryTate]

Ever since that talk, I've been pushing people away and declined all romantic advances, except for Kana.

Kana is a great choice for playing this game. Being with her is relaxing, maintenance-free, and always fun. I can't think of any scene she's been in where her smile doesn't brighten the story and bring life to the world being built. While she is "broken" in a way, she doesn't let it affect her too much, and instead uses it more constructively than the other LI's. That isn't to say she doesn't need support and help from her friends, but more so that she isn't anywhere near as angsty as the others in dealing with her personal challenges. I like that a lot about her. I really think Kana could end up as the dark horse in this race of great love interests in this game (and all the girls are awesome in their own way I feel). She has some really great potential as far as a close and intimate relationship and possible exciting sexual situations are concerned.

In real life, I absolutely hate people who take what they know of you, and use it against you. Elspeth is like this. In this playthrough I've been open with her, but she remains closed off and playing games.

Els is...complicated. I don't get the same sense as you that she is trying to deliberately harm the MC, by using his vulnerable admissions against him. But yes, she is manipulating things at times to get what she wants out of the situation (note: what she wants is of course the burning question here, and from the story so far that appears to be a complex mix of what she thinks is good for herself, and what she imagines is good – or at least hopefully neutral – for the MC). The important thing to realize though is that she is not just the mind games she is sometimes openly inflicting on the MC. She has admitted that she is playing games at times because she wants a partner who can match her wits, and if we accept that explanation, then this is just her way of finding someone who isn't weak (i.e. she doesn't want a "Men are like kitchen tiles – lay them right once, and you can walk all over them for the next ten years" type of toxic relationship, which is a good thing). I don't entirely accept this explanation either, but while her motivations are likely more complicated than just this one desire – because she has secrets and thus other potential reasons for her behaviours – I generally get the sense that she is at least honest with the MC about being his friend. She may even be a rare "ride or die" companion for the MC, though we'll have to wait and see on that one.

I would argue more in Els's favour because a person's character has to be judged by all of their actions. Including the things they don't do. We need to be fair and consider everything about Elspeth, such as: her volunteer work funding and managing the Center to help struggling veterans; her independence from her family and her eschewing of the valuable status associated with them despite the significant loss of power and influence she has to accept because of it; her no-strings-attached offer of support for the MC in the form of an experienced and recommended therapist; the fact she doesn't become aggressive and try to sabotage the other women who might take the MC from her, and instead feels confident in her own attractiveness to let the chips fall where they may; and more. That last point demonstrating her healthy attitude towards a relationship is quite important I feel. We know that she wants – and perhaps even loves – MC, but she is willing at some reasonable level to leave him free to make that important choice of what he wants without stacking the deck unfairly so that she is the only option left. That shows a considerable amount of maturity and makes her a very attractive option as a partner (IMO of course), and I would argue it speaks well to her ultimate intentions toward the MC.

 

[Quetzzz]

It's not her thing. They both behave the same towards each other. In the swimming pool, for example, it is Mc who lowers the mood.

MC lowers the mood because she intruded on his mental space. They had a nice evening together, Valentine agreed immediately to go with her to her father, to be a good friend. Afterward, she suddenly tries to bash through his walls. Objectively, she probably did that because she wanted to be a friend too, but to me, it came across as her trying to shape Valentine in what she wanted him to be.

I am talking about the girls and only those who know first hand what it is like. not from what they have been told like Ines. Mcnab knows him too. I didn't mean Vi knows the events of mc's life. Vi knows mc's real personality (what he's like), because she's been so close to him in the past. And she tells mc that he doesn't behave the way he really is, and that she knows you're not like that.

Vi also hasn't seen Valentine in what, 8 years? People change a lot in their early twenties regardless, add to that being in active war zones. So even she wouldn't know what his real personality is under the trauma he's hiding from. Regardless, all the people I mentioned already know more about Valentine than the player does.

I just played through the part where Els talks to Vi. Els really showed her colors there, it really is a game to her. She's mentioned that a few times, including to Valentine. Yeah, I'd rather not be a pawn.
Now, from what Vi said, apparently the MC is back to how he was? Unknown to me (because the player is never told), Valentine was a heart-on-the-sleeve kind of guy. Funny too, but then Els also accused the MC of using humor to hide behind. But this is what he's always done, right? Because being the clown was a coping mechanism to not get left out.

Els is ahead of him in recovery. Even though she keeps having hallucinations, The mc too, talks to his ex and Davis. They're both fucked up, but she can control it better, let's put it that way.

Maybe I'll reconsider that when I finished this chapter.

I don't want to change your opinion, but without playing her paths you don't have all the info.
Play them and then comment on them.

Commenting on it early is half of the fun. Because, this is what's going through my head right now, and the impression I have of her at this moment. I'm not critiquing the entire game after only playing it for 10 minutes.
And as far as my opinion goes, I'm always happy to change it when new information comes to light. I just ranted because I got fed up with Els' behavior (And also because I'm genuinely interested in how other people experience this.), and so far I haven't seen anything that makes me change my mind. She might become more relatable as more details are shared, I still treat her as a good friend. But after the pool scene she's lost my romantic interest entirely, I'm not playing her game.

 

[Mr. Muscles]

No El slander pls.

 

[TimHawk]

Els is...complicated. I don't get the same sense as you that she is trying to deliberately harm the MC, by using his vulnerable admissions against him. But yes, she is manipulating things at times to get what she wants out of the situation (note: what she wants is of course the burning question here, and from the story so far that appears to be a complex mix of what she thinks is good for herself, and what she imagines is good – or at least hopefully neutral – for the MC). The important thing to realize though is that she is not just the mind games she is sometimes openly inflicting on the MC. She has admitted that she is playing games at times because she wants a partner who can match her wits, and if we accept that explanation, then this is just her way of finding someone who isn't weak (i.e. she doesn't want a "Men are like kitchen tiles – lay them right once, and you can walk all over them for the next ten years" type of toxic relationship, which is a good thing). I don't entirely accept this explanation either, but while her motivations are likely more complicated than just this one desire – because she has secrets and thus other potential reasons for her behaviours – I generally get the sense that she is at least honest with the MC about being his friend. She may even be a rare "ride or die" companion for the MC, though we'll have to wait and see on that one.

I would argue more in Els's favour because a person's character has to be judged by all of their actions. Including the things they don't do. We need to be fair and consider everything about Elspeth, such as: her volunteer work funding and managing the Center to help struggling veterans; her independence from her family and her eschewing of the valuable status associated with them despite the significant loss of power and influence she has to accept because of it; her no-strings-attached offer of support for the MC in the form of an experienced and recommended therapist; the fact she doesn't become aggressive and try to sabotage the other women who might take the MC from her, and instead feels confident in her own attractiveness to let the chips fall where they may; and more. That last point demonstrating her healthy attitude towards a relationship is quite important I feel. We know that she wants – and perhaps even loves – MC, but she is willing at some reasonable level to leave him free to make that important choice of what he wants without stacking the deck unfairly so that she is the only option left. That shows a considerable amount of maturity and makes her a very attractive option as a partner (IMO of course), and I would argue it speaks well to her ultimate intentions toward the MC.

If Els would have done all those things altruistically and without an agenda a lot of your conclusion would be true, but what if it's a need ? What if you want it to be true and ignore all the signs that say differently ?

At the Center she hears every single day about someone's elses violent encounters and she gets to experience them third person.

She has a father who is rich beyond means and who runs charities, yet to fund her Center, she asks Alistair and the MC and when her father finally decides to kick money in, she is not happy.

She was MI, Military Intelligence, and yet she challenges an SFO, Special Forces Operator, that she has seen or been in as much shit as he, that's ludicrous and a clear break with reality. MI's can get deployed to combat zones, to take statements, follow up on tips or debrief informants, but they don't get deployed into combat, that's not their training or their job. It CAN happen, but to say that she has seen as much action to someone who has trained local forces behind enemy lines is just bonkers.

And Els tells Vi straight up why she likes the MC, because when he fights or trains she believes he is who he really is at his core, again a direct link to violence.

As a matter of fact, we have yet to see a single shred of evidence that she has feelings for the MC, what she does show and even say is, at least in her mind, an almost pathological dependence on the MC, that he is the only one that would accept her for who she really is.

And while we are at it, does she want to help the MC out of concern, friendship and love or because she can hold on to the hope, that if he can be fixed, she can too.

 

[Quetzzz]

Kana is a great choice for playing this game. Being with her is relaxing, maintenance-free, and always fun. I can't think of any scene she's been in where her smile doesn't brighten the story and bring life to the world being built. While she is "broken" in a way, she doesn't let it affect her too much, and instead uses it more constructively than the other LI's. That isn't to say she doesn't need support and help from her friends, but more so that she isn't anywhere near as angsty as the others in dealing with her personal challenges. I like that a lot about her. I really think Kana could end up as the dark horse in this race of great love interests in this game (and all the girls are awesome in their own way I feel). She has some really great potential as far as a close and intimate relationship and possible exciting sexual situations are concerned.

You say it better than I can. Kana is indeed relaxing and fun. But she also isn't shallow or "just a lay", she has character and that's what I like most about her. (Just a sidenote, not saying you said the opposite.)
Kana is the underdog in her story, in a way. In real life, I always root for the underdog, so maybe that's what attracts me to her. Also, the Christmas scene was the first one I actually felt positive emotion in this game (besides a laugh here and there).

Els is...complicated. I don't get the same sense as you that she is trying to deliberately harm the MC

No, "harm" isn't what I'd call it. She asked MC how many people he's killed, he answered honestly (lost count). At the pool, she used this moment of honesty to try and break Valentine (murderer). (Now, I'm sure she'd still call this out as a trait of them both, even if the MC didn't answer that question, but it is what it is.)

I don't entirely accept this explanation either, but while her motivations are likely more complicated than just this one desire

Right, I think we agree on this entirely. It's more or less what I'm thinking right now. And what I want from Valentine, what I'd do, is to stop playing her game. I don't think the actual game will let me, though.

I generally get the sense that she is at least honest with the MC about being his friend.

I think so too, but she's also too secretive and closed off. She gives glimpses then pulls back the curtain. Probably part of her game, I doubt Els says anything by accident. Again, part of the reason why I'm giving her the cold shoulder. Not playing her game, since I can't call her out.

her volunteer work funding and managing the Center to help struggling veterans

Els admonishes Valentine for having a wall, while the Centre might very well be a part of her wall. Objectively she's putting good in the world, but what if all the volunteers and vets are just there to validate her sense of self-worth (as the heir), or if she did it out of a sense of guilt? At least from what she says herself, I get the impression that she put a lot of allies in harms way.
This is a bit of a tangent, maybe. I'm just wondering if her motivation has any weight here. Valentine is putting good into the world too, and much of it is fueled by his own sense of guilt.

her independence from her family and her eschewing of the valuable status associated with them despite the significant loss of power and influence she has to accept because of it

Yet she will become heir to the Astair family. I don't really see this, tbh. The way I see it, that status and influence is guaranteed.

her no-strings-attached offer of support for the MC in the form of an experienced and recommended therapist

I just played this part (but plan to reload and watch the video instead).
Valentine isn't hurting a fly, he's not suicidal (though he's not really living yet either), and he's not depressed. And, at least my MC, has made a big step by telling Kana she'd be the only one for him, and he wants to be committed to her. I'm very weary of taking Els up on any offer, because she doesn't respect my boundaries. That's the same reason why Vi is out of the race, for me.
And honestly, I think Valentine is fine. Maybe I'm clueless, or maybe the game keeps me clueless. I just don't get the sense that Valentine needs a therapist. Compare this to the MC of "Long Road Home", who gets a violent episode when triggered. That's a guy who needs therapy.

the fact she doesn't become aggressive and try to sabotage the other women who might take the MC from her, and instead feels confident in her own attractiveness to let the chips fall where they may

In part, yes. But I highly doubt that the undertone of Els' conversation with Vi on the beach was for Vi's benefit. Honestly, I don't even understand why Vi went with her to the bakery after that talk. Els got what she wanted from that conversation, Vi (again) didn't respect Valentine's wishes and blabbered, and then still got no information, except for realizing that Els is pursuing Valentine.
("Be careful Gingersnap, I play for keeps.", "You really don't know what you're getting into.")

We know that she wants – and perhaps even loves – MC, but she is willing at some reasonable level to leave him free to make that important choice of what he wants without stacking the deck unfairly so that she is the only option left.

This might be true. She's certainly one of the few LIs who hasn't really thrown herself at the MC. I don't entirely agree with "leave him free", because I'm convinced that her wanting to help Valentine is directly related to her feelings for him. If he's to be her partner, he'll have to be at his best, after all.

 

[Quetzzz]

As a matter of fact, we have yet to see a single shred of evidence that she has feelings for the MC, what she does show and even say is, at least in her mind, an almost pathological dependence on the MC, that he is the only one that would accept her for who she really is.

And while we are at it, does she want to help the MC out of concern, friendship and love or because she can hold on to the hope, that if he can be fixed, she can too.

I need to take a course in writing, because you said in a few lines what I need 1000 words for. xD

 

[Sin_Mechero]

MC lowers the mood because she intruded on his mental space. They had a nice evening together, Valentine agreed immediately to go with her to her father, to be a good friend. Afterward, she suddenly tries to bash through his walls. Objectively, she probably did that because she wanted to be a friend too, but to me, it came across as her trying to shape Valentine in what she wanted him to be.

She touches his bottom, because he always responds evasively or jokingly on serious topics, and it's the only way to get him to talk or to let his guard down a little.You only have to look at the outcome of that discussion. The Mc starts going to group therapy.For his recovery.

Vi also hasn't seen Valentine in what, 8 years? People change a lot in their early twenties regardless, add to that being in active war zones. So even she wouldn't know what his real personality is under the trauma he's hiding from. Regardless, all the people I mentioned already know more about Valentine than the player does.

I just played through the part where Els talks to Vi. Els really showed her colors there, it really is a game to her. She's mentioned that a few times, including to Valentine. Yeah, I'd rather not be a pawn.
Now, from what Vi said, apparently the MC is back to how he was? Unknown to me (because the player is never told), Valentine was a heart-on-the-sleeve kind of guy. Funny too, but then Els also accused the MC of using humor to hide behind. But this is what he's always done, right? Because being the clown was a coping mechanism to not get left out.

People change, yes, but the base doesn't change much or that's what Vi at least believes the mc hasn't changed. (It also depends on the path you are taking) he just hides it so he doesn't feel something similar again. But deep down those feelings are what saves him. For example at his lowest point, he decides to help Amrit (He shows that he feels for others) and that's where his recovery begins. Having a goal.
I could be wrong about Els but I think she takes the rivalry with the girls as a game, not the relationship with the mc. She feels very superior to the others.

Commenting on it early is half of the fun. Because, this is what's going through my head right now, and the impression I have of her at this moment. I'm not critiquing the entire game after only playing it for 10 minutes.
And as far as my opinion goes, I'm always happy to change it when new information comes to light. I just ranted because I got fed up with Els' behavior (And also because I'm genuinely interested in how other people experience this.), and so far I haven't seen anything that makes me change my mind. She might become more relatable as more details are shared, I still treat her as a good friend. But after the pool scene she's lost my romantic interest entirely, I'm not playing her game.

I think that to get to know the characters well you have to play with each of them. Because that's where you really get to know them and they really open up to you and tell you more.
Once you've played them you judge them differently. You may like them more or less, but you know their motives.
In the case of Els, she is mysterious, and very competitive. You have to be patient with her, little by little she is opening up.

 

[Quetzzz]

She touches his bottom, because he always responds evasively or jokingly on serious topics, and it's the only way to get him to talk or to let his guard down a little.You only have to look at the outcome of that discussion. The Mc starts going to group therapy.For his recovery.

She said it herself "I kissed you because I wanted to.", why wouldn't she do anything just because she wants to? Do I have to give her the benefit of the doubt, that she didn't do it for her own benefit? Even if Valentine benefits in some way, where does her game stop, and genuine compassion start?
Therapists will let you lie to them for as long as you feel the need to. If Els wanted to help Valentine, she didn't have to force it. She didn't need to keep escalating, and I hate that it worked.
I said earlier that I would've liked this game even more if I just got to play Valentine's story. The fact that we have choices, makes it the player's story, about how the player reacts while in Valentine's skin. At the same time, we're way behind on crucial information to make these choices in a roleplaying way. Inferring how Valentine accepted Els' confrontation by looking at what he does next... That's the reverse of how choice-based games work. The way I see it, if Valentine was as damaged as Els claims, then he'd have stopped going to group entirely, instead he does a 180 without the player's input.

People change, yes, but the base doesn't change much or that's what Vi at least believes the mc hasn't changed. (It also depends on the path you are taking) he just hides it so he doesn't feel something similar again. But deep down those feelings are what saves him. For example at his lowest point, he decides to help Emrit (He shows that he feels for others) and that's where his recovery begins. Having a goal.
I could be wrong about Els but I think she takes the rivalry with the girls as a game, not the relationship with the mc. She feels very superior to the others.

But the base is that Valentine has always used humor as a coping mechanism. It's just dialed to 100 due to his trauma. Valentine has been in high stress situations for 4 or-so years. Even people who've never seen combat, come out of the military differently than how they went in. Our experiences change us, sometimes fundamentally.

I think you're right that Els feels superior, I don't think she'd physically harm any of the women, but she will play games with them, and I don't think they'll be pretty.

In the case of Els, she is mysterious, and very competitive. You have to be patient with her, little by little she is opening up.

Not in this playthrough. When I play through the game again, I'm sure my choices will be biased by the meta knowledge I've gained. I mentioned it before, but I think the player is kept in the dark too much about a past that's defining him. When we ultimately learn about all these events, I'll happily game the game to see all the content it has. (And yes, I'm getting so fed up with all the JJ Abrams-style black boxes and the drip-feeding of information.)

 

[cxx]

If she's indeed behind the "hack", then I hope we'll get the option to tell her to fuck off.

not pants down and ass up?

 

[Sin_Mechero]

She said it herself "I kissed you because I wanted to.", why wouldn't she do anything just because she wants to? Do I have to give her the benefit of the doubt, that she didn't do it for her own benefit? Even if Valentine benefits in some way, where does her game stop, and genuine compassion start?
Therapists will let you lie to them for as long as you feel the need to. If Els wanted to help Valentine, she didn't have to force it. She didn't need to keep escalating, and I hate that it worked.
I said earlier that I would've liked this game even more if I just got to play Valentine's story. The fact that we have choices, makes it the player's story, about how the player reacts while in Valentine's skin. At the same time, we're way behind on crucial information to make these choices in a roleplaying way. Inferring how Valentine accepted Els' confrontation by looking at what he does next... That's the reverse of how choice-based games work. The way I see it, if Valentine was as damaged as Els claims, then he'd have stopped going to group entirely, instead he does a 180 without the player's input.

Of course she benefits from it, she does it because she wants him as a partner, and the better he is the better for her (that's in the pool scene, which is the love path).
And she considers him a friend in the other too, in the end they have a lot in common.
She keeps escalating the situation because that's how she thinks she can make the mc react, which she does by the way. I understand that you don't like the ways, but we are not them and we don't have the same needs.
I imagine that the lack of being able to make those decisions, is the lack of knowledge, and regardless of the path the mc realises he is mentally fucked up.

But the base is that Valentine has always used humor as a coping mechanism. It's just dialed to 100 due to his trauma. Valentine has been in high stress situations for 4 or-so years. Even people who've never seen combat, come out of the military differently than how they went in. Our experiences change us, sometimes fundamentally.

He used to be the joker in the group, but he also showed empathy for others.
Now he uses it to avoid talking about topics that don't interest him.
He has changed, creating a wall, but deep down he is still the same. And between all of them they are helping him to become the same (or at least a better version than he is now), to overcome PTSD and to get over the death of his fiancée.

Not in this playthrough. When I play through the game again, I'm sure my choices will be biased by the meta knowledge I've gained. I mentioned it before, but I think the player is kept in the dark too much about a past that's defining him. When we ultimately learn about all these events, I'll happily game the game to see all the content it has. (And yes, I'm getting so fed up with all the JJ Abrams-style black boxes and the drip-feeding of information.)

In this chapter we learn a lot about the Mc's history . We found out part of the history with Vi. And what happened with the ex.

 

[Quetzzz]

not pants down and ass up?

Nope, I'd just ogle her ass once more as she leaves.

She keeps escalating the situation because that's how she thinks she can make the mc react, which she does by the way. I understand that you don't like the ways, but we are not them and we don't have the same needs.

And that's a failure of the game IMO. If STWA just wanted to tell a story, he could've done that without player choice.
Of course, you're right. We are not them, but we're still allowed (and even encouraged by all the mystery) to draw our own conclusions. Maybe if I had more background on Valentine, and actually noticed the way he struggles, I would've felt differently.

He used to be the joker in the group, but he also showed empathy for others.
Now he uses it to avoid talking about topics that don't interest him.
He has changed, creating a wall, but deep down he is still the same. And between all of them they are helping him to become the same (or at least a better version than he is now), to overcome PTSD and to get over the death of his fiancée.

He's still showing a lot of empathy, though. Well, depending on the path. My Valentine encourages others and helps when he can. He's a Face. In hindsight, I picked Face because of Kana. Valentine wants to clean up his image (implicating he realizes that putting up a front of being unreliable is to his detriment), and I chalk most of 'my' character growth up to that. The world knows us by what we say and do, people can't read our mind. That's what Kana made Valentine realize.

In this chapter we learn a lot about the Mc's history . We found out part of the history with Vi. And what happened with the ex.

I'm right after the beach brawl, so I'm sure I'll get to know about that soon.