VN Ren'Py STWA: Unbroken [Pt. 7] [STWAdev]

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Relationships start based on attraction and not love, Elspeth is attracted to the protagonist, she told him that and made it clear what attracted her, their relationship is natural and real.

All the women around the protagonist are attracted to him, it is wrong to expect them to "love" the protagonist before having a long romantic relationship with him.

Clearly we see love very different ways and I am not gonna argue which one is true. I think and I believe love is a spectrum that starts with attraction and depending on a person how far it will go. Relationships can start with attraction among other things but will grow with love. At this point in the story, they are over the attraction point but I don't see love between them.

They are all attracted to MC that is correct but I definitely do not agree about your opinion to not expect love. There can't be a long romantic relationship if there is no love to begin with, after long romantic relationship people attune to each other. If they somehow run out of love to each other, they could not familiarise to each other then they break up. So initially we don't expect love but it is not true that love comes after long romantic relationship.

The only person in the VN who could feel "love" for the protagonist is Vi, but in a family sense, not a romantic one.

Why exactly? MC knows Amrit a long time, being a mentor to her. Could she not love him as a mentor? Elspeth knows MC at least a year, she keeps a photo of him with photos of important people to her. Could she not love him as a friend? MC helps Kana to get used to neighbourhood, tries to help her fight with her demons. Could she not love him as a person? How did you reach to that conclusion only Vi can love him and it's just family sense?

Everything you said about Elspeth wasn't what you observed, it was what the characters mentioned in the dialogue during the story, this is the construction of the character Elspeth.

I am not sure you are aware but this is an AVN, obviously what I think about something will come from what dev show to me and what dev told to me through other characters. This is how you create an idea btw, you get some info, think on it then create an idea about it.
Let's try to dissect what I told about her,
Fighting her own demons, where do I get that? Through her bloody daydreaming about her past, keeping people at arm's length, what he told about her family to MC and to Vi. I concluded she has some demons from her past to fight.
I mentioned the scenes with her like meeting her father, she is being around quite often etc. and also she is dodging questions. These are all facts from the game. Through that, I concluded she is the one that did not give chance to character development.
Having baggage comment is a tricky one but bear with me. I got previous 2 conclusions of mine and thought she has some issues from past and does not want to let MC in then I concluded she is having lots of baggage from her past and has to deal with them first.

So could please clarify what you mean by was not my observation but characters' mentioning? Are you talking about quote unquote thing, if so could you kindly refer that to me.

You don't like Elspeth not because there's something wrong with her, but simply because you prefer someone else, if you pay attention, you'll notice that all LI are similar.

What an assumption without knowing anything. I do not like Elspeth because there is something wrong with her. I believe that something is not worth MC to deal with. Yes, I do like some other characters, tbh I do like any other character before Elspeth, but you are absolutely wrong because even if I did not like any other, I would not like Elspeth anyway.

 

[talion777]

I don't know why this becomes a competition with people. It really doesn't matter who you like. There's a variety of girls so that hopefully in each game there's someone to apply to everybody. Nobody is right and nobody is wrong. Of course the more avid of the basement dwellers will argue that they are absolutely right and that you're an idiot and heretic if you don't agree, but whatever. For example, I run completely against type from a lot of you because I consider Amrit a total waste of time as an LI. Also, Vi is sweet but she really is more of the little sister vibe to me. You guys don't have to agree and I don't give a rat's ass and neither should you. Enjoy the game for yourself and you don't have to defend your preferences to anybody. In this respect alone, perhaps, the VN reflects real life.

 

[Dessolos]

I don't know why this becomes a competition with people. It really doesn't matter who you like. There's a variety of girls so that hopefully in each game there's someone to apply to everybody. Nobody is right and nobody is wrong. Of course the more avid of the basement dwellers will argue that they are absolutely right and that you're an idiot and heretic if you don't agree, but whatever. For example, I run completely against type from a lot of you because I consider Amrit a total waste of time as an LI. Also, Vi is sweet but she really is more of the little sister vibe to me. You guys don't have to agree and I don't give a rat's ass and neither should you. Enjoy the game for yourself and you don't have to defend your preferences to anybody. In this respect alone, perhaps, the VN reflects real life.

I honestly see defending your favorite LI part of the fun in some of these threads. As long as it doesn't get too hostile or toxic or trying to change someone's mind to get them to like your LI. But you are right it doesn't matter since you like who you like and it's just a game.

Edit : Also it's nice to see another person's point of view. Which tends to mostly come out when you defend your LI.

 

[RoryTate]

I don't know why this becomes a competition with people. It really doesn't matter who you like. There's a variety of girls so that hopefully in each game there's someone to apply to everybody. Nobody is right and nobody is wrong. Of course the more avid of the basement dwellers will argue that they are absolutely right and that you're an idiot and heretic if you don't agree, but whatever. For example, I run completely against type from a lot of you because I consider Amrit a total waste of time as an LI. Also, Vi is sweet but she really is more of the little sister vibe to me. You guys don't have to agree and I don't give a rat's ass and neither should you. Enjoy the game for yourself and you don't have to defend your preferences to anybody. In this respect alone, perhaps, the VN reflects real life.

There is no piece of art that is above criticism. And discussing a creative endeavour with others – even passionately – is the only way that people can find out things they might have missed when considering it. Yes, sometimes it can get a bit testy, but if we look at adult VNs or even just STWA: Unbroken specifically, I think everyone has a main LI or path that they consider canon in a game, and it's honestly a lot of fun to hear those different interests being shared. How much other people's opinions of your ideas matter to you is ultimately something you control. For example, if someone decides that having a favourite LI or storyline means you don't comprehend the concept of multiple save paths, you can always just choose to not respond and then move on with your day. It really is that simple.

One thing I've observed in many fan communities is that when people know – deep down – that what they like is objectively good, then they are consistently more open to hearing opposing viewpoints about it. However, when it is not well made, and people are unfortunately deluding themselves into just "appreciating" something because of sunk cost fallacy or similar motivation, then they tend to see criticism as an attempt to ruin their fun. But think about that for a second...how can someone else's thoughts make you stop liking something if it's actually good?

 

[soprano31]

All these folks talking about leaving out Ines

Who could even think of leaving behind the most beautiful French angel ?

She radiates the fiercest passion,
burning with the most innocent love and the tenderest hope,
Ines je t'aime jusqu'à l'éternité ..

 

[Matt2012021]

Got zero problem with any of ladies in this VN really like them all

 

[cxx]

Got zero problem with any of ladies in this VN really like them all

good but still you have to choose 1 in the end and some 1 can lead to 3some.

 

[ElectronicRoberts]

You must be registered to see the links

Quick and easy this week

As of writing 2657 renders are posed, 2605 rendered. Nothing fun or unique to discuss here, just average render stuff.

Animation tweaks at the same place, as the have been. Worked on as renders cook.

This is sort of the quiet part of development. Alas I can't hop in every week with some grand new scheme or interesting fact, my goal now is just getting as much work done as I can so I can get the update to you sooner.

Thank you as always for the support. I hope you have a lovely upcoming weekend.

Sláinte!

 

[talion777]

There is no piece of art that is above criticism. And discussing a creative endeavour with others – even passionately – is the only way that people can find out things they might have missed when considering it. Yes, sometimes it can get a bit testy, but if we look at adult VNs or even just STWA: Unbroken specifically, I think everyone has a main LI or path that they consider canon in a game, and it's honestly a lot of fun to hear those different interests being shared. How much other people's opinions of your ideas matter to you is ultimately something you control. For example, if someone decides that having a favourite LI or storyline means you don't comprehend the concept of multiple save paths, you can always just choose to not respond and then move on with your day. It really is that simple.

One thing I've observed in many fan communities is that when people know – deep down – that what they like is objectively good, then they are consistently more open to hearing opposing viewpoints about it. However, when it is not well made, and people are unfortunately deluding themselves into just "appreciating" something because of sunk cost fallacy or similar motivation, then they tend to see criticism as an attempt to ruin their fun. But think about that for a second...how can someone else's thoughts make you stop liking something if it's actually good?

Perhaps part of the devoted fan base find it enjoyable to nitpick and have exhaustive arguments over trivia and which girl is better, or why the other person is wrong in their thoughts and feelings, but the rabid inflexibility of people and their desire to impose their views on others to me in these forums is both unnecessary and tiresome. Some threads are so unable to accept viewpoints that vary from unthinking adulation of some character or plot point that it's simply not worthwhile to venture opinions of any kind that are contrary to the cult mantra. The Eternum thread is a great example of this. I don't think it's fun. I think it's childish and stupid, and while I enjoy these games as a diversion and have my own preferences I'm appalled by the amount of time and emotional energy(and vitriol) that some people spend glorifying a cartoon. I feel that people should just enjoy these games for what they are, feel comfortable in their own preferences, and indulge in their kinks and fantasies in a judgment free zone. Maybe it just gives people something to do in between releases, but fighting over these games strikes me as the opposite of what they're designed for. Opinions differ. I respect yours. I even understand it. I just don't agree with it.

 

[Ilhares]

but fighting over these games strikes me as the opposite of what they're designed for. Opinions differ. I respect yours. I even understand it. I just don't agree with it.

You're largely right, the point should simply be entertainment and relaxation. I often don't respect other people's opinions, though, because they're not worthy of it. I respect that they have a right to their opinion, I'm not the thought police, but some people are just clearly unhinged.

Somebody likes Reenie instead of Vi, or maybe only bangs the ring girls because they don't want to cross boundaries with their close friends? I can respect that they feel that way (even though I don't really understand how). You picking on Eternum was an excellent point.

It's like certain books/movies (Lord of the Rings comes to mind) or even religions - the base material is fine. It's the fans that make it intolerable.

 

[talion777]

It's like certain books/movies (Lord of the Rings comes to mind) or even religions - the base material is fine. It's the fans that make it intolerable.

That is a much more elegant and concise way of stating the point, and I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Porthas]

I'd like a path where you can pick them all. Then they come at you in your sleep in a fit of jealous rage and you have to roll a die - BG3 style - and if you don't roll a natural 20 - you get stabbed to death.

 

[Ragnar]

I mean everybody knows he's a player or so the tabloids say. If any girl feels betrayed that would be their fault

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[RoryTate]

Perhaps part of the devoted fan base find it enjoyable to nitpick and have exhaustive arguments over trivia and which girl is better, or why the other person is wrong in their thoughts and feelings, but the rabid inflexibility of people and their desire to impose their views on others to me in these forums is both unnecessary and tiresome. Some threads are so unable to accept viewpoints that vary from unthinking adulation of some character or plot point that it's simply not worthwhile to venture opinions of any kind that are contrary to the cult mantra. The Eternum thread is a great example of this. I don't think it's fun. I think it's childish and stupid, and while I enjoy these games as a diversion and have my own preferences I'm appalled by the amount of time and emotional energy(and vitriol) that some people spend glorifying a cartoon. I feel that people should just enjoy these games for what they are, feel comfortable in their own preferences, and indulge in their kinks and fantasies in a judgment free zone. Maybe it just gives people something to do in between releases, but fighting over these games strikes me as the opposite of what they're designed for. Opinions differ. I respect yours. I even understand it. I just don't agree with it.

I completely understand what you mean when you say "tiresome". But it's important to realize that this isn't the argument many people are actually using when they oppose disagreement to their ideas. Their words are instead some form of: "Your criticism is ruining my ability to enjoy this." And, as I have stated before, hearing and engaging with criticism should only improve a person's enjoyment when something is truly good. And if you like something that's bad and has serious issues (I admit I do it from time to time), just accept that reality and continue enjoying it all you want, no matter what some words on a screen from an unreal online virtual world try to tell you.

Also, let me press "X" to doubt that the vast majority of people are "tired" of dealing with the same repeated criticism, since I most often hear these kinds of "don't ruin my fun" appeals within a short time after something new has just been released. Seriously, that's not enough time for a criticism to become "tiresome". Instead, that's only marketers and corporations and Stans wanting to suppress honest debate from deflating their hypenosis balloons. If something is genuinely well made, it will be a success and recognized as such because people can and do recognize and appreciate quality art. So once again, I contend that only bad products fear criticism and try to limit its reach.

Now this may sound strange to some, but I don't even think that "stuck in the mud tiresome positions" are an actual problem, since your reaction to them is something you have control over just as much as ignoring other people's personal likes and dislikes. Here's my advice:

1. Start off any conversation in good faith and realize that not everyone is as familiar with a subject as you are, and that everyone has a first time for everything.
2. Don't argue to convince the other person; form your replies to try and sway the 95% of people who are just reading, because they are the ones who are open to hearing your point of view.
3. Choose to debate in order to hone and practice your critical thinking skills.

If you modify your approach to create constructive conversations based around the things you control, you never get discouraged, since when you choose to engage you always feel productive in doing so. You alone decide whether you feel tired or not. Other people or their thoughts are never "tiresome", unless you choose to interpret them as such.

You're largely right, the point should simply be entertainment and relaxation. I often don't respect other people's opinions, though, because they're not worthy of it. I respect that they have a right to their opinion, I'm not the thought police, but some people are just clearly unhinged.

Somebody likes Reenie instead of Vi, or maybe only bangs the ring girls because they don't want to cross boundaries with their close friends? I can respect that they feel that way (even though I don't really understand how). You picking on Eternum was an excellent point.

It's like certain books/movies (Lord of the Rings comes to mind) or even religions - the base material is fine. It's the fans that make it intolerable.

This accusation of "toxic fandoms" has been taken way too far I think, and it's well past the point of reasonableness at this time. Yes, when emotions get high and discussions dissolve into personal insults, that is unproductive and unhealthy. This is especially true when it comes to people's "best girls" in an adult VN, since being attracted to Elspeth or Amrit or Kana carries with it a shit-ton of emotional desire and personal investment. I get that. After all, I rock an "Elspeth Exclusive" save path as my canon story. However, well-moderated discussions already do not allow for direct personal attacks, and F95zone is no exception to removing that kind of comment. So why is everything suddenly so "toxic"? The rules are already in place to deal with the problems that lead to unhealthy behaviour, so what gives? Well, the main emerging issue I see is that some people make their fandom for something a core part of their "identity". For example, if someone really loves Noir detective movies, and is a "cinema aficionado", you might be able to predict how they tend to dress, their tastes in music, or even their political views. Because of this, a comment simply expressing a general dislike for the genre of Noir cinema will get interpreted as a personal attack on a person's core sense of identity, and they will often respond with very strong emotions to the simple existence of another person who isn't exactly like them. But that's not rational, to put it mildly. And this is the point where "being respectful" crosses a line nowadays and gets taken way too far in the other direction. Simply expressing my own likes and dislikes is not a personal attack on anyone, nor does it create a "toxic fandom", and that should not even be a reasonable thought that crosses anyone's mind.

The meme of "living rent-free inside someone's head" has become popular recently, and I think that says something about the general mental state of the online world. Because people don't seem to have the tools anymore for dealing well with peer pressure, and so they instead require constant "affirmation" and "coddling" to "feel safe". This kind of obsession with imagined slights and externalizing phobias has become the real problem in online interactions IMO, and it is getting expressed by the observation that someone is "living rent-free" inside another person's mind. Feelings of safety are something you have personal ownership of, in the end, and they are not something that anyone else controls except you.

Hopefully that explains why I try to promote more debate and criticism, not less, when it comes to important and interesting ideas. And human sexual desire is a damn fun subject to explore in every depth imaginable.

 

[talion777]

I completely understand what you mean when you say "tiresome". But it's important to realize that this isn't the argument many people are actually using when they oppose disagreement to their ideas. Their words are instead some form of: "Your criticism is ruining my ability to enjoy this." And, as I have stated before, hearing and engaging with criticism should only improve a person's enjoyment when something is truly good. And if you like something that's bad and has serious issues (I admit I do it from time to time), just accept that reality and continue enjoying it all you want, no matter what some words on a screen from an unreal online virtual world try to tell you.

Also, let me press "X" to doubt that the vast majority of people are "tired" of dealing with the same repeated criticism, since I most often hear these kinds of "don't ruin my fun" appeals within a short time after something new has just been released. Seriously, that's not enough time for a criticism to become "tiresome". Instead, that's only marketers and corporations and Stans wanting to suppress honest debate from deflating their hypenosis balloons. If something is genuinely well made, it will be a success and recognized as such because people can and do recognize and appreciate quality art. So once again, I contend that only bad products fear criticism and try to limit its reach.

Now this may sound strange to some, but I don't even think that "stuck in the mud tiresome positions" are an actual problem, since your reaction to them is something you have control over just as much as ignoring other people's personal likes and dislikes. Here's my advice:

1. Start off any conversation in good faith and realize that not everyone is as familiar with a subject as you are, and that everyone has a first time for everything.
2. Don't argue to convince the other person; form your replies to try and sway the 95% of people who are just reading, because they are the ones who are open to hearing your point of view.
3. Choose to debate in order to hone and practice your critical thinking skills.

If you modify your approach to create constructive conversations based around the things you control, you never get discouraged, since when you choose to engage you always feel productive in doing so. You alone decide whether you feel tired or not. Other people or their thoughts are never "tiresome", unless you choose to interpret them as such.



This accusation of "toxic fandoms" has been taken way too far I think, and it's well past the point of reasonableness at this time. Yes, when emotions get high and discussions dissolve into personal insults, that is unproductive and unhealthy. This is especially true when it comes to people's "best girls" in an adult VN, since being attracted to Elspeth or Amrit or Kana carries with it a shit-ton of emotional desire and personal investment. I get that. After all, I rock an "Elspeth Exclusive" save path as my canon story. However, well-moderated discussions already do not allow for direct personal attacks, and F95zone is no exception to removing that kind of comment. So why is everything suddenly so "toxic"? The rules are already in place to deal with the problems that lead to unhealthy behaviour, so what gives? Well, the main emerging issue I see is that some people make their fandom for something a core part of their "identity". For example, if someone really loves Noir detective movies, and is a "cinema aficionado", you might be able to predict how they tend to dress, their tastes in music, or even their political views. Because of this, a comment simply expressing a general dislike for the genre of Noir cinema will get interpreted as a personal attack on a person's core sense of identity, and they will often respond with very strong emotions to the simple existence of another person who isn't exactly like them. But that's not rational, to put it mildly. And this is the point where "being respectful" crosses a line nowadays and gets taken way too far in the other direction. Simply expressing my own likes and dislikes is not a personal attack on anyone, nor does it create a "toxic fandom", and that should not even be a reasonable thought that crosses anyone's mind.

The meme of "living rent-free inside someone's head" has become popular recently, and I think that says something about the general mental state of the online world. Because people don't seem to have the tools anymore for dealing well with peer pressure, and so they instead require constant "affirmation" and "coddling" to "feel safe". This kind of obsession with imagined slights and externalizing phobias has become the real problem in online interactions IMO, and it is getting expressed by the observation that someone is "living rent-free" inside another person's mind. Feelings of safety are something you have personal ownership of, in the end, and they are not something that anyone else controls except you.

Hopefully that explains why I try to promote more debate and criticism, not less, when it comes to important and interesting ideas. And human sexual desire is a damn fun subject to explore in every depth imaginable.

I understood your argument the first time. I don't agree with it. I also find your attempt to overlay a template of how I and others should "properly" enjoy a forum to be patronizing in the extreme, as well as unwelcome. I find excessive wrangling over LIs tiresome and accusations of people being wrong for liking one or the other instead of liking the "right" one both stupid and childish, as well as discounting the personal preferences of other users of the forum, which are all equally valid. I also find that it tends to hide and/or dilute other content which gets lost in the middle of the endless wrangling.Since I don't want to go down the same rabbit hole I was just complaining about I'm going to leave it at that and end my contribution here. You have heard my opinion and I have heard yours. You can enjoy the forum any way you like, and I hope that you will.

 

[RoryTate]

I understood your argument the first time. I don't agree with it. I also find your attempt to overlay a template of how I and others should "properly" enjoy a forum to be patronizing in the extreme, as well as unwelcome. I find excessive wrangling over LIs tiresome and accusations of people being wrong for liking one or the other instead of liking the "right" one both stupid and childish, as well as discounting the personal preferences of other users of the forum, which are all equally valid.

Unfortunately I think we may be talking past each other at this point, since I don't recognize anything in your response in what I was trying to say. However, one of the most important rules of the forum is that comments must be reasonably related to STWA: Unbroken, so I'll respect that guideline and leave it there before this drifts too far afield. Instead, I'll just mention a comment thread several pages ago in this very forum where a user shared their strong dislike for Elspeth because she – in their words – didn't respect boundaries and was very manipulative of others. I responded in good faith with an alternate take on her actions as being much more positive than that, and long story short, at the end of our deep back and forth we had both moderated our positions somewhat, and – most importantly – we both agreed that we had a better understanding and appreciation of her character because of our interactions. I just hope that is something others can get to experience when dealing with different viewpoints, even when it comes to the passionate like and dislike for LIs in an adult VN.

 

[MF_DOOM]

I find excessive wrangling over LIs tiresome and accusations of people being wrong for liking one or the other instead of liking the "right" one both stupid and childish, as well as discounting the personal preferences of other users of the forum, which are all equally valid.

Arguing about personal taste is so pointless, I never understood it either.
"I prefer dark chocolate over milk chocolate"
"You are wrong!!!!!!!!!!!"
Seriously?

 

[cxx]

I'd like a path where you can pick them all.

no any kind harem.

 

[RoryTate]

Arguing about personal taste is so pointless, I never understood it either.
"I prefer dark chocolate over milk chocolate"
"You are wrong!!!!!!!!!!!"
Seriously?

That's a bit of a strawman that doesn't represent the vast amount of online media discussion, and I think most people would laugh at anyone who ended a conversation that came down to personal tastes in such a silly manner. I wouldn't say it doesn't happen, but the internet is a vast place where everything can and will occur. However, cherry picking the worst possible example is not going to promote understanding of what is happening in general conversations like this. The point of discussing why a certain character is liked/disliked, or a story element is good/bad, etc, is because people often have objective reasons for thinking the way they do. For example:

"I like character x more than character y." "And why is that?" "Because character y took action z, and that bothered me because..." "Oh, well did you notice that character y only did that because...." "Oops, I completely missed that part. Thanks, I'll give them a second chance."

That's also a discussion that can happen (and it did, as an overly broad description of my back and forth regarding Elspeth earlier in this very thread), about a personal preference that might be presumed to be subjective. But in the end it is anything but subjective, and people can and do change their minds, so perhaps it's worthwhile to not prejudge these discussions so harshly.

I do agree that the adage "people have different tastes" is a perfectly valid way to end a conversation. But it is a horrible way to start one, because in practice it usually means no discourse happens at all. People just call everything subjective, retreat to their echo chambers, or go silent, and that's a shame to see. To be honest, I often don't know what I think about a subject until I've had a long time to consider it through and hear other ideas about it, so how is it that suddenly everyone seems to instantly know me better than myself these days? I can't even express what I think yet, but somehow they can telepathically do it for me? It's strange the number of people who just assume so much about others. Maybe it's because social interaction is perceived as such a minefield that this shift is happening? I don't know. I just think we share more in common than we think, deep down. Just...actually talk with people. They will surprise you.

 

[Porthas]

no any kind harem.