muttdoggy

Dogerator
Staff member
Moderator
Aug 6, 2016
7,793
43,531
Let's cool the temperature in the room. If it gets any hotter, it'll get attention from the mods and we might take actions that you don't want, right? So remind yourselves to stay on topic about the game and its contents.
Talk about patreon, money, release date, when is it here, etc will attract more attention as well.
So again, keep it on topic, stay chill, and we'll have a nice release when DC is done.
 

Francis8rock

Member
Sep 8, 2017
226
197
This happens everytime a release gets near for SS.
Peeps, if u cant be civil, don't post. Everybody flipping out about release time, calm down. The rest of us understand it sucks, but unless u support his patreon there is no reason nor room to complain over and over and over.
If ur complaining about how DC is playing his patrons, why are u on this thread and why are u playing his game? Should be boycotting it on principle since he's a piece of shit taking so long and taking all that money from all those patrons......unless principle doesnt matter because u still want to? If it's ok to put aside principle and morales, why are u complaining about DC doing it? Hypocrates are the worst.
Those that are fed up with all the continuous complaining, hit up the mods and request that production critiques get their own thread for SS.

Have a nice day
I don't know who you were referring to but I was civil the entire time. Also as I said I don't care how much he makes or how long he takes but your whole principle and hypocrite argument makes no sense. There are millions of people who hate how EA does things. Are they hypocrites abandoning their morals for pirating an EA game?
 

dexterblood

Newbie
Nov 15, 2018
46
111
Well if wether DC is milking it depends on this upcoming update. Now the Roxy update was brilliant. Took time but it had alot of content for everyone to enjoy. Good story and good scenes. Now the Aunt update took roughly the same time but was extremelly lackluster with a scene even taken out so people were right pissed. Now well lets see what he does here. If scenes are taken out with hardly any new additions well yeah people are gonna get pissed more and DC will have to make changes to his dev process. If the update is as good as Roxys people are gonna be more patient next time.
 

E-Dog

A pain in his girlfriend's ass
Donor
Apr 9, 2018
1,413
3,123
Well if wether DC is milking it depends on this upcoming update. Now the Roxy update was brilliant. Took time but it had alot of content for everyone to enjoy. Good story and good scenes. Now the Aunt update took roughly the same time but was extremelly lackluster with a scene even taken out so people were right pissed. Now well lets see what he does here. If scenes are taken out with hardly any new additions well yeah people are gonna get pissed more and DC will have to make changes to his dev process. If the update is as good as Roxys people are gonna be more patient next time.
I personally thought roxxys update was the best update....and it was fucking hilarious too!
BTW- Im watching Dexter right now as im writing this ;)
 

Mr.Qaywesdxc

Active Member
Aug 5, 2016
547
1,578
This happens everytime a release gets near for SS.
...unless u support his patreon there is no reason nor room to complain over and over and over...
This is pretty bad logic. Why could not they share their thoughts? Because they don't support him? AFAIK this is discussion forum. Deal with it or leave it. ;) This whole argument is stupid. Instead of ignoring it someone has to always pop up and heat the discussion (nothing personal).

Anyway I will stick to my dev tracker updates for now.
 

E-Dog

A pain in his girlfriend's ass
Donor
Apr 9, 2018
1,413
3,123
This is pretty bad logic. Why could not they share their thoughts? Because they don't support him? AFAIK this is discussion forum. Deal with it or leave it. ;) This whole argument is stupid. Instead of ignoring it someone has to always pop up and heat the discussion (nothing personal).

Anyway I will stick to my dev tracker updates for now.
I'll never say u can't give ur opinion. There are better ways to going about doing it than has been on both sides though.
 

Ragingrager

Member
Jan 27, 2018
430
1,328
You can't use placeholder art when the scenes are interactable as it is in this game. You can't code the area to click the pill bottle on the shelf or the key on the keyhook if you don't know exactly where the shelf, bottle, key and keyhook is.
You literally can. Those are just buttons, that is code you can just slap in. This is basic.
 
  • Like
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Feb 7, 2018
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It's a free game? I don't have to pay a dime to play it if I don't want to. Neither do you.
And when you're purposely stretching things out and taking things as slow as possible, it really feels like you're purposefully taking advantage of those who are donating to you in the promise of what you say you are going to deliver. This is not a new scheme.

I used to pay him, but as soon as it became evident that either there was willful incompetence or purposeful delaying, I stopped. I was giving in good faith to people I thought were acting in an equal manner. How should I feel if that isn't the case? Happy?
 

WSmith

Active Member
Jul 25, 2018
687
1,068
tl;dr waaaaaay below.

I'm patiently waiting for the release of the next update, like I always have done. Sure, I can't wait (figuratively) but I have too much respect for the process to understand how people can be so enraged and obtuse.

The team earns 52.000 dollars a month (according to posts above). That looks a like a lot of money, but so many people see this number and just think one person gets it, or it entitles them to rage against everything.

But let's take a more rational approach at this budget, shall we, and pretend that Kompas Productions is a business (which it is)?

Disclaimer: I'm no expert, but I'm trying to look at the budget rationally. I've worked from home for six years, having to manage costs for my own utilities and office supplies, so I know a little bit about these costs at least.
Also I would like to state that the costs I present are either an acceptable minimum (like 80 dollars for an office chair, and 500 dollars for a laptop). The actual costs for a company are likely to be much higher. Food is also calculated at a minimum, and so are utilities. Taxes are only calculated for persons, not for the company itself. Meaning that the number people take home in these calculations is most likely too high (that is, people probably take home less than described here).
Lastly, I've calculated in the way that each employee gets exactly the same amount of money.



How much does Kompas actually get from Patreon?
Patreon takes a 5% cut of the $52000, so that means that (52000 - 2600), 49400 is left

There are 7 people on the team according to the official Summertime Saga page. So that would leave 7057 dollars per person, per month. That's quite a bit of money, but Kompas' employees can't just run about and buy jetskis from that money. Let's see where that money actually goes.


Financial security
Any company that wants to exist further than the project it is currently working on, reserves some of its left-over revenue for later. If Kompas sets aside 10000 dollars a month, it would mean that after two years of saving (=240,000 dollars) they could exist for nearly 5 months (240,000 dollars, using 50,000 dollars a month like they do now). So, setting aside 10,000 dollars a month is not a luxury but a financial safe-guard, incase the company hits a dry spell, all the backers stop paying, or anything else happens unexpectedly that puts them in a financial bind.
Again, this is a minimum of a safe guard (see incalculable costs).


Home office
That would leave 39400 to divide over Kompas' employees. But wait, there is more. We have to consider fair payment of office supplies. Yes, you personally own a computer. Yes, you pay electricity anyway. But what you might not realise is that if you go to an office building to work, these matters are paid for you. That screen that gets replaced every two years? That new desk you get? That office chair? All stuff you need to calculate into your economic model if you work from home. Naturally, you don't need a new office chair every month, and neither do you need a new desktop or laptop, so these costs are divided by 24 months, which is a normal corporate write-off. After this, these supplies are deemed worthless.

Office supplies and utilites:
- Office chair, 80 dollars / 24 = 3.33
- Laptop (basic), 500 dollars /24 = 20.83
- Desk, 100 dollars /24 = 4.16
- Utilities, 150 dollars a month (an average month of utilities is 100 dollars if at home. Considering you spend 8 hours at work, actively using electricity, heating, and water, this is not a high number. Also included in this is the breaking of lightbulbs, cables, etc.)
- Internet subscription, 50 dollars

Total = 228.32
However, this is per person, so the total write-off per month is 228.32*7 = 1598,24

Leaving us with 39400-1598 = 37800

Again, this is considering the minimum. This is about the cheapest office chair and desk from your local Ikea, a budget segment laptop, etc. It also doesn't include a mouse, drawing tablet, keyboard, lamps, paper, pens, etc. etc. While technically you could make due with the noted above, it's really not a comfortable work space.
Considering a company can dodge VAT, you'd have to add 50% to all prices to be at a comfortable place (for example a 1000 dollar laptop, retail value).


Death and Taxes

So, that leaves 5400 dollars per person, per month, which comes down to 64800 per year, per person. After taxes, that leaves roughly 52,000 dollars, which means they have 4300 dollars a month to spend.

As put in the disclaimer, the number per person per month, is calculated without first calculating corporate taxes. The actual number any employee takes home is much likely lower (see below).


Incalculable costs
I'm sure I missed a lot, and again, I'm no expert. 4300 dollars a month might seem a lot of money (and it is, to a lot of people, yours truly included), but what I haven't written about yet, and what cannot be calculated in terms of money, is the risk involved. Each project that takes a considerable time of one's life, without financial guarantee, must be accounted for with a higher financial return. Kompas needs a lot of cashflow to sustain itself, for a number of good reasons.
We also haven't discussed potential growth (new employees, centralised office, servers, etc.), sick leave, pension plans, etc. Then there are the future projects, which might need a jump start before additional investors can be found, and of course the number of hours Kompas actually worked without getting a single cent. Don't forget, Summertime Saga didn't always get 52000 dollars on Patreon a month. I'm sure that, for a long time, before Kompas was on Patreon, it already existed in some form, and consumed a lot of time or energy. Sure, this might have been a hobby, but it's really not a bad thing to get paid for it in the end.


Addition and criticisms welcome
Please, take all of this, read it through, correct it, add stuff, and reupload it yourself.


Final thoughts
What I have calculated here is what I believe is the minimum Kompas needs to run the company proficiently, in the most minimalist way. The office supplies used make for an uncomfortable setting. The safeguard in place is severely lacking. There is no plan in case of illness, no pension plan, no insurances. Take this into account too!
Personally, I think that whatever Kompas is making, they deserve. So far, they haven't hidden any content of the game behind a paywall, and let those who can't afford it, or don't want to, play the game for free. The backers make this possible, and for that I am thankful. It's also a choice by Kompas, and a sign of trust in its fan base. I'm sure that such a thing is not easy to do, because you have a more direct dependancy on your followers.
I wrote all of this because I'm growing more and more tired of the way this discussion loses all substance. There are people that think Kompas is getting way too much money, and all they do is yell that people should stop paying. The other side argues against them sometimes, or asks them to stop visiting the forum if they don't care. Why the former do keep yelling that everyone should stop paying still baffles me.
I hope this discussion can remain civil, and grounded in arguments. I'm open to critique (if substantiated by good arguments), and am willing to adjust my view. The view I won't adjust is that I have thoroughly enjoyed Summertime Saga so far, am thankful for all the time and effort its many creators put into it, and that they, in my opinion, deserve every penny they have gotten for it so far.

Thanks for reading!

tl;dr: Does Kompas get a lot of money? Yes, but probably way less than you think because running a company costs money, and they deserve it in my opinion.
 
Jul 28, 2017
392
1,466
tl;dr waaaaaay below.

I'm patiently waiting for the release of the next update, like I always have done. Sure, I can't wait (figuratively) but I have too much respect for the process to understand how people can be so enraged and obtuse.

The team earns 52.000 dollars a month (according to posts above). That looks a like a lot of money, but so many people see this number and just think one person gets it, or it entitles them to rage against everything.

But let's take a more rational approach at this budget, shall we, and pretend that Kompas Productions is a business (which it is)?

Disclaimer: I'm no expert, but I'm trying to look at the budget rationally. I've worked from home for six years, having to manage costs for my own utilities and office supplies, so I know a little bit about these costs at least.
Also I would like to state that the costs I present are either an acceptable minimum (like 80 dollars for an office chair, and 500 dollars for a laptop). The actual costs for a company are likely to be much higher. Food is also calculated at a minimum, and so are utilities. Taxes are only calculated for persons, not for the company itself. Meaning that the number people take home in these calculations is most likely too high (that is, people probably take home less than described here).
Lastly, I've calculated in the way that each employee gets exactly the same amount of money.



Thanks for reading!

tl;dr: Does Kompas get a lot of money? Yes, but probably way less than you think because running a company costs money, and they deserve it in my opinion.

Dude your maths is fine but this is 1970s logic. were you sent in with a smoke grenade to say 600k per year is barely enough?

Firstly, its a start up, and no business that starts up just cranks 20% of all profit in a piggy bank for a rainy day, they get a loan and work their guts out to pay it off, so 10k per month back in the numbers please.

So my maths is this:

49400 post patreon Agreed.

The "office" is his basement. his equipment already he had by his own admission and hasnt upgraded. total cost to business 0 dollars.

49400

All other staff (except one) are subcontractors offsite, have their own equipment and cost centres and would most likely invoice for the work they do (which is why its delayed all the time) they dont work on this game full time like him but we'll get back to this as a cost later.

Wife is also "full time" and one of thhe 7, but 0 cost as shes a tax write off and thus apart from drawing a wage has 0 input into business.

49400

OK, so now whats the subbies costing? Writing, is maybe a full 40 hour week in a 4 month dev cycle. US average wage 60k / 52 weeks = $1200

Animator lets say 1K per animation and theres 5-6 per update (max) 6K

Coder, whats a bad coder worth an hour? 100 bucks? 10 hours a week? 1k?

Music SFX guy? well again per music (none in this update) not even on the tracker anymore.

Some dude doing server website and discord. probably work experience and cheap

I actually only see 4 people as "working" having come off the website, 2 of them posing.

Anyhow.... lets say they put in as much effort as Darkcookie, so 1.5 hours 3 days a week (as per stream) so 4.5 hours total at 100 bucks an hour x 2 of them $900 per week.

So total invoices from subbies is per month (over 4 month cycle) is animator 1.5K, coder 4k, website 1k (generous), posing 3.6k. total 10k, hell lets say 15K per month to make it all fair, HELL lets say 20K per month which it sure wont be.....

So we're all clear, even at that:

29400 left.

So we're crystal on this, he's not paying rent, his house is his place of work. his subbies invoice him and this comes off his income pretax, and they carry their own cost centres.

Him and his missus are taking in 29400 per month pre tax or 352K and change, with all the tax benefits of a business at home.

I appreciate your post above, it's well thought out and from a good place in your heart. But dude, you're numbers are not close.
 

Francis8rock

Member
Sep 8, 2017
226
197
You literally can. Those are just buttons, that is code you can just slap in. This is basic.
No you can't. If you notice you can't click on something if your mouse is not on the actual drawing of the item. you can't get that kind of precision with placeholders. Don't get me wrong. They could do all parts of development much faster then they do. They just don't want to.
 

Y2Ryoko

New Member
Apr 28, 2017
14
13
I maintain that the curse of Patreon (or specifically the problem with using Patreon to fund individual projects rather than a series of content) comes from the fact that there's no financial viability in completing a project. This was the case with Breeding Season, it's the case with Trials in Tainted Space, it's the case with Cloud Meadow, and it was the case with Snow Daze.

Keeping the game going indefinitely provides a steady, lucrative cash flow versus releasing the product and risking that cash flow trickle out until/unless you can hook people again with a new one. Even when Breeding Season was clearly stalled, at a point where it went more than a year without a significant update and actually removed huge chunks of content, it was taking in $30,000 a month.

Kudos to Snow Daze for actually releasing, but it did so in an extremely compromised state. Most of the community is in agreement that it wasn't actually "complete" at all, because it was lacking a lot of scheduled content and the back third of the game was lower quality than the rest.

You can't really blame them for doing this either. The money is simply too good to pass up. If the worst case scenario is to be believed (that DC is pocketing $30,000 to essentially draw for 6 hours a week), then he's living the dream and it would be in his absolute best interest to never finish this game and milk the Patreon teat until it's dry.
 

j4yj4m

Forum Fanatic
Jun 19, 2017
4,097
5,975
@Y2Ryoko:
I mean, there's no point in finishing a game "just to finish" it and there are far too many games, Snow Daze among them, who ended way too quickly and without ever reaching anything close to their potential. SummertimeSaga has so much useful and actually needed content left that there's really no reason to talk about finishing this project anytime soon.
... that DC is pocketing $30,000 to essentially draw for 6 hours a week...
That's bullshit anyway. DC is drawing ~8 to 10 hours a week on stream alone (sometimes more) and those streams are a minuscule fraction of what's released in the end. Sadly many people seem to forget how much the game has improve quality wise and how much more time those new animations, quest, etc. take.

Sure, he could go back to "1 stroke shading", 2 frame animations, repeatable quests which simply consist of buying items at a shop 4 times, repeatable scenes, etc. but that would just make the game worse in every imaginable way. But yes, releases would be faster.
 
Jul 28, 2017
392
1,466
Miniscule fraction? easy to check. he does all the non H renders on stream. only the H stuff is done off stream. lets see how many new H Scenes pop out of 18.0 (note already pushed many to 18.5).

He could go back to 2 frame animation, but wait, he hired an animator specifically for that.....with the extra 30k per month he earns post 20k a month mile stone to employ an animator.......

no it would be alot faster if you look at all the initial streams that were almost daily, went 3 hours to all day to now, 3 streams a week 1.5 hours with 30 minutes of some other stupid game he plays, with 2 weeks off in 4 for sickness.
 

JKH18

Member
Jan 16, 2018
492
474
Gotta love it, the dev tracker goes up 2 percent and it's like a bomb went off in here with all the crap flying with the usual moans and complaints. :D And when the update comes out, 9/10 ppl that have been crying in here about anything and everything they can think of from DC fleecing people with a FREE game, to who knows what else, will shut up for a week 'cause they're playing the game. Until the dev tracker shows progress again, and it's time to start bitching and moaning again, even though most whiners here haven't put a dime into the game. :D

Hats off to DC, I don't think there is another adult game that creates this kind off buzz. That's just another achievement this game has to its name. ;)
 

Username1337

Newbie
Sep 3, 2017
62
81
So I've never come back to this many notifications, so to be clear on my initial comment; I'm not complaining about the time it's taking. I believe the game wouldn't be happening without the patreon support(go you guys), but I also feel bad for them because as some have mentioned patreon projects have no real incentive to speed things up even if they could.

The rest of the back and forth has covered pretty much everything. Some are upset, some are patient, the update takes a long time, it takes a lot of work and he/they deserve the support, etc. The passion is a sign of love for the game, which most of us share to some degree. And to anyone saying people are only whining, people can discuss this stuff without it being complaining. Calling it "moans and complaints" doesn't validate your moaning and complaining.
 
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