Ren'Py Summertime Saga [v21.0.0 wip.4468] [Kompas Productions]

[MurkyTurtle]

I think the problem is less how much DC is making and more that he seems to feel obligated to deliver a game that meets the expectations generated by such largess. Updates are getting larger and more varied, to the point where they could almost qualify as standalone VNs in their own right, but his team isn't built to produce them on the timescale that most people would expect a Patreon-supported adult game to meet.

If he wants to keep up this level of production that's fine, but he's going to have to compromise at some point and hire another artist even if they can't match his style perfectly. Heck, with all of the art revamps we're already getting contrasting styles in the game (see the last update, which had both old and new Jenny depending on the cutscene) and nobody seems to mind too much. It'd help with his same-face problem, too.

 

[dexterblood]

I think the problem is less how much DC is making and more that he seems to feel obligated to deliver a game that meets the expectations generated by such largess. Updates are getting larger and more varied, to the point where they could almost qualify as standalone VNs in their own right, but his team isn't built to produce them on the timescale that most people would expect a Patreon-supported adult game to meet.

If he wants to keep up this level of production that's fine, but he's going to have to compromise at some point and hire another artist even if they can't match his style perfectly. Heck, with all of the art revamps we're already getting contrasting styles in the game (see the last update, which had both old and new Jenny depending on the cutscene) and nobody seems to mind too much. It'd help with his same-face problem, too.

Roxxy update was big, the Aunts?
Well hardly as big as hers and lets be honest most of the changes made were just not needed and just wasted time. Like her whole arc just lasted too long.

 

[MurkyTurtle]

Roxxy update was big, the Aunts?
Well hardly as big as hers and lets be honest most of the changes made were just not needed and just wasted time. Like her whole arc just lasted too long.

The Diane update did deliver a ton of new content, but I'll admit I also wasn't a huge fan since I don't really have a thing for lactation. I'm mostly disappointed we never got to fool around in that big bed of hers. Ultimately I can understand why they went that route since they left the (barn) door open to add new characters in, though Lord only knows when they'd find the time to start adding Diane's friends to her stable.

 

[CoomerKing]

Starting to think they're having a race with their own bugs. Just the fact that the finish line is non existent.

 

[robertj]

Being a software developer myself, I just thought I'd add my input:

People have reason to complain about the length of the current development cycle, it's too long. I know, content takes time to produce, but projects with development cycles this long tend to start failing. Why? Because the developers are trying to add too much content into each release. They'll eventually be unable to maintain the code and bugs will start to go unfixed. After that, things will just get even worse.

Fixing the problem would be rough for a few months, but really should be done.

The first thing they need to do is adopt an Agile methodology and then start releasing content every 2-3 months. Of course the save compatibility issue would need to be resolved in the first release so that people wouldn't need to start a new game every time.

The project is too large for Dogeek to be coding by himself. There needs to be at least two developers so that they can pair program and review each other's code. This would increase productivity and greatly reduce the number of bugs being introduced into the code.

Which leads us to the posing/animation issue. The fact is, if it's such a bottleneck then DC shouldn't be working on content for the next update, he should be helping with the posing and animation. If something in the development cycle isn't working, fix it!

All that said, from where this game started to where they are now, they've come a long way. Has everything been perfect? Of course not. Is it easy to complain about that? Of course. Does that actually fix anything? Not really.

The best thing you can do is: offer suggestions (like those I've made above). If they don't want to make the changes you think they need to make, then you don't have to support them. If you're not supporting them and still complaining...then you're complaining just to complain and it's not going to change anything.


** Note **
I know someone is going to ask, so I'll say it right now:

Don't ask me how long it'll take me to update the incest patch when 0.18 drops. My current patch only replaces lines, which is okay, but not really great. The game has multiple characters that say the exact same line. This means that replacing the line for one person changes it for everyone that says it. The new patch will take longer to release because I'll be doing it properly this time.

 

[j4yj4m]

Which leads us to the posing/animation issue. The fact is, if it's such a bottleneck then DC shouldn't be working on content for the next update, he should be helping with the posing and animation. If something in the development cycle isn't working, fix it!

That would indeed be the worst thing he could do. Coding and posing aren't real bottlenecks overall. They only matter in the end for a week or two while DC is already drawing for the next update. But every day DC doesn't draw is a day lost for the total development of the game. If DC would start posing/animating that time would be lost and 0.19 would take even longer.

I'd guess that's actually the reason why he doesn't hire more coders/posers. He can only produce X amount of art and there's no real need to hire more people if they'd sit on their hands half of the time. He did say that he'll hire a second animator though.

 

[TastySnickers]

That would indeed be the worst thing he could do. Coding and posing aren't real bottlenecks overall. They only matter in the end for a week or two while DC is already drawing for the next update. But every day DC doesn't draw is a day lost for the total development of the game. If DC would start posing/animating that time would be lost and 0.19 would take even longer.

I'd guess that's actually the reason why he doesn't hire more coders/posers. He can only produce X amount of art and there's no real need to hire more people if they'd sit on their hands half of the time. He did say that he'll hire a second animator though.

Fully agreed. But here is the problem: The most productive thing that DarkCookie could and should do is to hire another artist to work/draw along with him. I know he is not a fan of it, but having this big of a project cannot go much more forward without losing patreons, especially after promising the biggest update for Eve, ( for which I am pretty excited, I always was a sucker for cute goth chicks) which let's be honest will take another 5-6 months of work, maybe more. Yes it can be very frustating to teach someone the way you want your work to be done, but the hardest part is finding that one guy who is willing to dedicate himself. The rest will follow very soon. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Jonboy80]

Fully agreed. But here is the problem: The most productive thing that DarkCookie could and should do is to hire another artist to work/draw along with him. I know he is not a fan of it, but having this big of a project cannot go much more forward without losing patreons, especially after promising the biggest update for Eve, ( for which I am pretty excited, I always was a sucker for cute goth chicks) which let's be honest will take another 5-6 months of work, maybe more. Yes it can be very frustating to teach someone the way you want your work to be done, but the hardest part is finding that one guy who is willing to dedicate himself. The rest will follow very soon. Just my 2 cents.

If he adds another artist, that's two different art styles in the game. You, usually, don't want to make the art differ in a game as it becomes quite glaring. No two artists draw alike, so the odds of him finding someone who can mimic his art is minimal.

 

[Wangmu]

If he adds another artist, that's two different art styles in the game. You, usually, don't want to make the art differ in a game as it becomes quite glaring. No two artists draw alike, so the odds of him finding someone who can mimic his art is minimal.

Animated shows and Anime both have dozens to hundreds of artists and yet they have a consistent art style. That's not a real argument lead artists give keyframes and reference images to copy good artists can copy art styles for these kind of projects.

 

[TastySnickers]

If he adds another artist, that's two different art styles in the game. You, usually, don't want to make the art differ in a game as it becomes quite glaring. No two artists draw alike, so the odds of him finding someone who can mimic his art is minimal.

I can understand your point of view. But let's focus look at my prespective- backrounds, minigames, items,etc can be drawn by comepletely different artist and I can bet you 20 bucks you will not even notice any differences. Now combine all that stuff and imagine how much time can be saved instead of consumed if DC keeps drawing everything by himself.

 

[MurkyTurtle]

I can understand your point of view. But let's focus look at my prespective- backrounds, minigames, items,etc can be drawn by comepletely different artist and I can bet you 20 bucks you will not even notice any differences. Now combine all that stuff and imagine how much time can be saved instead of consumed if DC keeps drawing everything by himself.

Particularly the backgrounds. DC spent most of the last two or three streams working on the background for the loft above the tattoo shop, effectively 4-ish hours for something that most people will glance at before they go back to reading text or hunting for the clickable Macguffin so they can get onto something else.

 

[Automata]

If he adds another artist, that's two different art styles in the game. You, usually, don't want to make the art differ in a game as it becomes quite glaring. No two artists draw alike, so the odds of him finding someone who can mimic his art is minimal.

That's a little grandiose. You make it sound like the making of anime, or animated films and movies is a miracle every time they hire a new artist to work on the project.

 

[j4yj4m]

Yes it can be very frustating to teach someone the way you want your work to be done, but the hardest part is finding that one guy who is willing to dedicate himself. The rest will follow very soon. Just my 2 cents.

Yes, finding that person seems to be very hard. As DC said, those who aree good enough and willing to work on porn usually want to work on their own projects.

Sadly I'd say there's realistically little middle ground. Either DC will continue to draw alone or he'll have to stop drawing and move on to supervise two or three artist who then will draw everything. The compromise between those two seems just too hard to find.

 

[Wangmu]

The creative field has far more people who want to work in it than there are jobs available. Finding talent isnt the issue.

 

[Jonboy80]

I can see someone else doing backgrounds. That, I wouldn't have an issue with. I don't watch his streams so I don't really know what it takes for him to do individual tasks. Thanks for that bit of information. I, mainly, don't want anyone but DC touching his character designs.

As for animated movies and shows, that's because they're made by studios. Studios are comprised of people trained to draw in a specific style. DC is not part of a studio nor are the odds of him hiring someone with the same art style as his very high.

PS: I have no idea how to multi-quote. I clicked the option on like three or four messages in response to mine but couldn't get them in the message.

 

[2xjj]

The last animation is done and DC said the update could be out by the weekend or next week.

 

[a72q]

Also the new animator (2nd one) has almost finished the 2nd animation out of the 3 that are planned for 18.5

 

[Wangmu]

I can see someone else doing backgrounds. That, I wouldn't have an issue with. I don't watch his streams so I don't really know what it takes for him to do individual tasks. Thanks for that bit of information. I, mainly, don't want anyone but DC touching his character designs.

As for animated movies and shows, that's because they're made by studios. Studios are comprised of people trained to draw in a specific style. DC is not part of a studio nor are the odds of him hiring someone with the same art style as his very high.

PS: I have no idea how to multi-quote. I clicked the option on like three or four messages in response to mine but couldn't get them in the message.

They dont need to have the same art style, they need to emulate. This is very easy for professional artists to do. They arent copying ancient masters its a porn game. If you look at the artwork done by Reverge labs they have like 6 artists or something between traditional artists and animators this is a much easier feat than you are making it out to be. Its really not an excuse. Maybe he doesnt want to spend the time looking for artists, maybe he doesnt like managing people, maybe he views it more like a pet project than a business I dont know DCs reasons for not finding other artists to add to the team. I do know that one reason which isnt justifiable is that he would be unable to find someone who can emulate his style.

 

[MurkyTurtle]

They dont need to have the same art style, they need to emulate. This is very easy for professional artists to do. They arent copying ancient masters its a porn game. If you look at the artwork done by Reverge labs they have like 6 artists or something between traditional artists and animators this is a much easier feat than you are making it out to be. Its really not an excuse. Maybe he doesnt want to spend the time looking for artists, maybe he doesnt like managing people, maybe he views it more like a pet project than a business I dont know DCs reasons for not finding other artists to add to the team. I do know that one reason which isnt justifiable is that he would be unable to find someone who can emulate his style.

I suspect that's probably the main issue. DC worked in the industry and I imagine one of the main appeals to working solo was not having to deal with the intricacies of being a project manager or overseer or boss. It's the curse of just about any industry: if you're good enough at your job, eventually you'll be promoted out of it. He's probably afraid that his job will eventually become drawing character sheets and then endlessly having to critique/fix the work of other artists who work off his models. It's good industry practice but for an artist who'd rather just draw all the time I imagine it'd be torture.

 

[seraphimd2]

They dont need to have the same art style, they need to emulate. This is very easy for professional artists to do. They arent copying ancient masters its a porn game. If you look at the artwork done by Reverge labs they have like 6 artists or something between traditional artists and animators this is a much easier feat than you are making it out to be. Its really not an excuse. Maybe he doesnt want to spend the time looking for artists, maybe he doesnt like managing people, maybe he views it more like a pet project than a business I dont know DCs reasons for not finding other artists to add to the team. I do know that one reason which isnt justifiable is that he would be unable to find someone who can emulate his style.

a good example for that is the manga industry,where an artist counts with a team to help him produce faster,to keep up with the demands,they mimic him or simply add the finishing touches,to spare him the time of having to polish the work until he thinks its good enough,and in some case,it even helps both sides to improve they drawing style,as in cases like Kishimoto(who had an horrible art style at the beggining of Naruto,which improved a lot until the end of the series thanks to the exchanges between him and his assistants),i myself,can mimic some art styles given the proper time,most of the competent artist can,its how we can improve ourselves,we see,and try to learn a way to insert a new perspective to our designs...but like i said in a good number of posts before,its DC decision,and until he thinks its a necessity there's literally nothing we can do about,aside discussing it....