Ren'Py Summertime Saga [v21.0.0 wip.5091] [Kompas Productions]

[TastySnickers]

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would you be able to keep an eye on today's stream and tell us what DC will say about the Roxxy update? I am really curious, is it possible 16.0 to hit live before this weekend.

 

[peripoccu]

I think the main problem is the meaning of "soon". When someone says it will come out soon I expect it to come out in a couple of days.

 

[Jonboy80]

I think the main problem is the meaning of "soon". When someone says it will come out soon I expect it to come out in a couple of days.

Soon is a largely ambiguous term. Just like the term "nearby".

For example; One could say that the moon is nearby because it's the closest thing to Earth in the solar system in comparison to Mars. But to someone else, the moon is nowhere near us, being some 240,000 miles away.

Soon is much the same. Everyone has their own definition of soon. If I tell someone I'll see them soon, it all depends on context. If I've just left a friend's house, soon may mean sometime in the next week. If I'm talking to them on the phone for a planned get-together later today, then soon could be in the next few hours or minutes.

When there is no context, such as this game, soon is a highly ambiguous term. Most devs, when they say soon without a release date, simply mean that it'll be released as soon as the remainder of their current goals are met. Depending on the size of the project, that could be a month's worth of work, a week's worth of work or a day's worth of work.

 

[j4yj4m]

So statistically you expect him to finish 75% of a game in another two when he managed to only finish 25% in that time so far?

Well, I wouldn't expect it to be done in two to be honest but I think it's possible in 2,x. Else I'm sure he's talking about content and not about workshare. Many foundations have been laid and some of those updates will be faster I suppose (I think we'll see that once Jenny gets her update, where a lot of things can be reused) and once the backgrounds are actually made by someone else.

This really boils down to what does this (game) actually entail and the answer as far as I can tell is even DC doesn't know aside from some incredibly vague goals. While the general public doesn't necessarily need to know every detail. There is no indication from DC that makes me think that he actually has this mapped out to an actionable degree.

I think right now there's no indication at all that patreons would mind supporting him for some years to come. To me it seems like he knows rather well where he wants his story to end and I guess that should be enough for now. He'll always be able to scale back some content in case he feels the need but right now I don't see any indication for that either.

It's hard for me to tell what you are actually saying for your last point. What PM changes is an actual plan for success that can be measured and adjusted. If DC were to actually not stream, I could make the argument that he doesn't need an additional artist. As it stands however he would need to hire another to help keep a reasonable pace/not bottleneck his entire game.

I'm sorry but that sounds very vague to me. By now he's basically producing the most sucessful recent sex game in the western world, is in the Top 5 among all creators on patreon and earns way more than he needs.
I think it's still crucial to understand that it's still not 100% a business and that it's not only about the outcome. There are plenty of people who support him for his streams, for the entertainment and because it is his game.

@TastySnickers : I have no idea yet, maybe in the background, maybe not.

 

[Kinderfeld]

One of my work pet peeves is being told that a project's deadline is ASAP. To me, that means I work on other things that have an actual date on them and then I get to yours. As Soon As Possible isn't a deadline, it's a wish.

 

[JustNotFatal]

Well, I wouldn't expect it to be done in two to be honest but I think it's possible in 2,x. Else I'm sure he's talking about content and not about workshare. Many foundations have been laid and some of those updates will be faster I suppose (I think we'll see that once Jenny gets her update, where a lot of things can be reused) and once the backgrounds are actually made by someone else.


I think right now there's no indication at all that patreons would mind supporting him for some years to come. To me it seems like he knows rather well where he wants his story to end and I guess that should be enough for now. He'll always be able to scale back some content in case he feels the need but right now I don't see any indication for that either.


I'm sorry but that sounds very vague to me. By now he's basically producing the most sucessful recent sex game in the western world, is in the Top 5 among all creators on patreon and earns way more than he needs.
I think it's still crucial to understand that it's still not 100% a business and that it's not only about the outcome. There are plenty of people who support him for his streams, for the entertainment and because it is his game.

There in lies the problem no one knows because it isn't planned out. I'm sure if DC really wanted to he could stretch this out for years. At a point people will no longer support.

Right now it is "successful" but he hasn't delivered a complete product yet. (look at Star Citizen, tons of funding intially but is now flopping all over the place).

The fact he has money coming in and has a company (LLC iirc) means this is a business no matter how said money comes in.

The thing is and I speak from experience that there has to be good management if you want something to succeed in the long run.

I'm happy people are willing to support him as SS has a lot of potential but I think you can objectively say that SS has bad PM or at the very least could significantly benefit from improvement in it.

I don't know what to tell you beyond that.

 

[itsyeboii]

Lets see, their website makes a claim that they release an update every month or may be 2 months at max, but still after 3 months of waiting, it's still going on. Like, man dont go back on your words, or atleast write may take 3 months or more for release of new update.

Thats an old claim, he used to actually deliver in that amount of time. But now with the updates being bigger (better?) he has to work on it longer. There is also a lot of recoding to do because his old code base sucked. But he should change it ASAP since its misleading and he doesnt cling to deadlines anymore.

 

[j4yj4m]

There in lies the problem no one knows because it isn't planned out. I'm sure if DC really wanted to he could stretch this out for years. At a point people will no longer support.

People predicted that the support would stop when he said he would remove inecest, people predicted that people would stop supporting him when the teachers update lasted that long etc.
I'd be carefully to predict anything here and I don't see excistancial issues and long as he delivers quality updates.

Right now it is "successful" but he hasn't delivered a complete product yet. (look at Star Citizen, tons of funding intially but is now flopping all over the place).

That's the nature of every(!) project on patreon. It's a completely different model to other projects which collect payments upfront and promise a reward afterwards. The success is directly judged by the people who support him at this very moment because they see how things are going and because they can play what's done. That's the very nature of patreon. Do well and deliver good content you'll get money, do less well and you'll get less.

I don't know what to tell you beyond that.

How about any concrete suggestion? I said that hiring one artist would not be enough since DC would spent a significant amount of time to adjust and explain which essentially wouldn't move the project forward.
I personally don't see any alternative than for DC to either more or less stop drawing and hire 2 or 3 artists which he then supervises or to give the supervision of the artists (including himself...) to someone else.
If he has to supervise and correct them, that's likely all he's going to do. If somebody else does it, he's not the boss within his own project anymore, which he certainly won't do.

It's a fundamentally different situation to any other bigger project. In those cases you have managers who are in charge right from the start which really isn't the case here.

 

[JustNotFatal]

People predicted that the support would stop when he said he would remove inecest, people predicted that people would stop supporting him when the teachers update lasted that long etc.
I'd be carefully to predict anything here and I don't see excistancial issues and long as he delivers quality updates.


That's the nature of every(!) project on patreon. It's a completely different model to other projects which collect payments upfront and promise a reward afterwards. The success is directly judged by the people who support him at this very moment because they see how things are going and because they can play what's done. That's the very nature of patreon. Do well and deliver good content you'll get money, do less well and you'll get less.


How about any concrete suggestion? I said that hiring one artist would not be enough since DC would spent a significant amount of time to adjust and explain which essentially wouldn't move the project forward.
I personally don't see any alternative than for DC to either more or less stop drawing and hire 2 or 3 artists which he then supervises or to give the supervision of the artists (including himself...) to someone else.
If he has to supervise and correct them, that's likely all he's going to do. If somebody else does it, he's not the boss within his own project anymore, which he certainly won't do.

It's a fundamentally different situation to any other bigger project. In those cases you have managers who are in charge right from the start which really isn't the case here.

I didn't say everyone would no longer support. Just that some (people) will not because they either lose faith or interest as previously mentioned.

I know how patreon works but we are talking about a fundamental issue of any project. So how the payment system works has minimal impact even if you try and play the system.

I did give concrete suggestions. He needs to either manage his (and team's) time and flow better/actually do some pre-planning or he hires other people to keep up with the pace/complexity of the project.

If you believe that would such an inconvenience to him/the project he isn't a very good artist then. From what I can tell he actually has quite a bit of talent. The "inconvenience" would be maybe a few days max for something that would save an incredible amount of time in the long run if he went that route. It'll be his project as long as he doesn't give up creative control which doesn't happen if you are the one paying people.

It's been awhile since I've made my own game with a team and about a year since I worked for a AAA studio. What you are stating just isn't a reality of professional game development.

 

[j4yj4m]

I didn't say everyone would no longer support. Just that some (people) will not because they either lose faith or interest as previously mentioned.

And DC seems to think that's fine. He doesn't seem to have the pressure to need that money. It's your prediction which I'd say does not need to be true, especially not when it comes to h games.

I know how patreon works but we are talking about a fundamental issue of any project. So how the payment system works has minimal impact even if you try and play the system.

I'd disagree. Patreons only pledge for the moment (especially since the game is free, so it's not even "payment" for the game itself in this case but for other perks) and there is no promise or let alone claim to a certain and defined final product. If they don't like what's coming, they stop paying and that's it. It's not like for example Star Citizen and all the other games where people have a right(!) to get a finished product and thus devs are forced to deliver.

I did give concrete suggestions. He needs to either manage his (and team's) time and flow better/actually do some pre-planning or he hires other people to keep up with the pace/complexity of the project.

You are still vague, very vague. He's drawing every day of the week full time so I don't see how you want to improve anything with more planning.

It'll be his project as long as he doesn't give up creative control which doesn't happen if you are the one paying people.

Of course you do, especially on this small scale. Because either DC personally has to spend the time to tell them what he wants and to correct it afterwards to suit the needs (which will eat into the time he can draw, especially since that will need in some cases as much time as drawing most the stuff himself) or he'll just accept what they deliver even if it's not what he wanted. At that point the control is gone.

It's been awhile since I've made my own game with a team and about a year since I worked for a AAA studio. What you are stating just isn't a reality of professional game development.

Well, that's part of the problem. He hasn't an AAA studio, he's making his game at his own pace and people pay because they like it. Or have you ever seen someone paying money to Blizzard, EA and others because they like the company?

 

[Edorath]

... yes, that's generally how it goes. They get their profits from people who like their products and/or the company mate.

 

[Jonboy80]

... yes, that's generally how it goes. They get their profits from people who like their products and/or the company mate.

Not before they receive their product they don't. Take EA for example. Other than pre-ordering like a month ahead of time, you're not paying them for their next Battlefield game before it's released. You're paying for the currently released title.

With Dark Cookie, you're paying for what he'll bring in the future, not what he's giving you at the moment. Or, you're not paying at all and getting it for free the same time everyone else gets it.

 

[exirock]

it sucks u knowing that is so close to be done and u have to wait. :noexpression:

 

[j4yj4m]

... yes, that's generally how it goes. They get their profits from people who like their products and/or the company mate.

No, it's not. They get their money from people who pay for their products. What DC is doing would be equivalent to EA releasing their games for free and saying people may pay whatever they want or even nothing. I guess we all see the difference.

 

[PatreonTed]

DC is more like a street busker, playing music out in the public. Some people like his "music" and don't mind waiting the delay between songs, others do.

 

[JustNotFatal]

And DC seems to think that's fine. He doesn't seem to have the pressure to need that money. It's your prediction which I'd say does not need to be true, especially not when it comes to h games.


I'd disagree. Patreons only pledge for the moment (especially since the game is free, so it's not even "payment" for the game itself in this case but for other perks) and there is no promise or let alone claim to a certain and defined final product. If they don't like what's coming, they stop paying and that's it. It's not like for example Star Citizen and all the other games where people have a right(!) to get a finished product and thus devs are forced to deliver.


You are still vague, very vague. He's drawing every day of the week full time so I don't see how you want to improve anything with more planning.

Of course you do, especially on this small scale. Because either DC personally has to spend the time to tell them what he wants and to correct it afterwards to suit the needs (which will eat into the time he can draw, especially since that will need in some cases as much time as drawing most the stuff himself) or he'll just accept what they deliver even if it's not what he wanted. At that point the control is gone.


Well, that's part of the problem. He hasn't an AAA studio, he's making his game at his own pace and people pay because they like it. Or have you ever seen someone paying money to Blizzard, EA and others because they like the company?

Most projects do not finish or succeed due to poor management, that is my point. I would like for that to be a non-issue.

That's a flaw with the system that can be somewhat remedied with upfront payment. Ultimately he does need money and patreon is a quasi-donation system. The reason why I use Star Citizen is because they had a ton of cash and ran out of money due to probably a myriad of reasons including management and expansion of features.

As I pointed out, my criticism is that he doesn't actually accomplish much during these streams. This is due to him joking around, polling for details, and waiting till the next day to actually finish something. I stated earlier that he does things that really should only take him 20-30 mins and it turns into 2+ hours. I'll say it again it's great for engagement on a Friday evening but an absolutely terrible way to develop a chunk of your game.

If what you say about multiple artists was true then no company would have them. This is were hiring the right person matters but to say that it will essentially "ruin" DC creative control or progression of the project is just flat out ignorant. If your project scope (as it's called) changes so too does the team. Part of the problem most likely stems from the fact the original features list was incredibly unreasonable to begin with just like so many other projects. The only difference here is that DC has the funds atm to possibly make it a reality if he smartly manages everything.

By himself* but with the help of others. This is no longer a one man show. People will buy a game just because it's a certain series or studio. I don't get your point there. Albeit they won't just throw money at a studio as a donation.

I've said my piece and I'm going in circles. Unless I could talk to DC and know the specifics on where everything is at, I have to state general things.

We'll see where the project goes.

The last thing I'll say is I've always seen at the end of a project the regret of not communicating, organizing, and planning more. Never the opposite.

 

[Beatrix Kiddo]

DC is more like a street busker, playing music out in the public. Some people like his "music" and don't mind waiting the delay between songs, others do.

That's pretty accurate, actually.

 

[j4yj4m]

@JustNotFatal : Yes, I guess we'll not agree in the end.

It's just that for DC it seems to be a lot about his artistic freedom and creativity. He left the gaming industry after about 10 years because he didn't like how they worked. That's why I can understand that he wants it to be his project, made by him for the people who like to participate. At his own pace, with his own ideas, going as far as it takes him.

Finally I'll just add one thing about scoping. It's not just "a project" but it's his art. I don't know if you draw, play music etc. and there's a huge value in creating things by oneself and excatly how one wants them to be - for oneself and for those who get to see the result. I think you are thinking way to big and in industry terms.

 

[Saraf]

One of my work pet peeves is being told that a project's deadline is ASAP. To me, that means I work on other things that have an actual date on them and then I get to yours. As Soon As Possible isn't a deadline, it's a wish.

Isnt that what you always get told by the PL tho?
Thats normally the point where we all scamper off for a coffee/smoke break heh.

 

[justinsane1185]

There's people that have been waiting 13 years for Kingdom hearts 3. Ya'll can wait a few days for a porn game. I'm surprised the thread hasn't been locked yet with the amount of complaining.