- Jul 5, 2022
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It makes a lot of sense IMO. With the odd descriptions and the small flashback where he lost his eyes. She was definitely “monstrous”.Already called the MC mom being a monster XD. View attachment 2743206
It makes a lot of sense IMO. With the odd descriptions and the small flashback where he lost his eyes. She was definitely “monstrous”.Already called the MC mom being a monster XD. View attachment 2743206
That was my point though. She isn't compatible and yet she expected the memory trait to come all the way up until she was level 5. If it wasn't possible at all to inherit the other trait without both doing it, why would she still think she could get it when she was only compatible with the 3rd? Why would she think Jake could get the Power trait and by extension Order, when he's the spawn of the 1st?Ella most likely simply isn't nearly as compatible with Memory (and Memory's powers) as she is with Body. Which those two would likely recognize. We have yet to see her infection in any flashback or the like. So we can only speculate.
No problem. I expanded on it to show that with this new angle, it would further prove a single twin did it all. I actually didn't think about the scanning memories thing beyond them just checking compatibility. Them using it to pass on the memory trait and then using the injection for the body trait flew under my radar.I did not contradict this, and I agree. MC is stated at multiple points to be the spawn of one Apostle, not both.
There's a few errors here. Aglaecwif said she hasn't met anyone who's obtained the Order trait since the Origin. That's what she said during that scene, not a spawn that inherited two traits, if I remember right. From what I remember, she was talking about Jake during that scene.Let me expand a bit on the Apostle powers and why I think it's more complicated. I will delve into my needlessly complex theory, trying to determine the cosmology of this game.
Clue 1) Both Aglaecwif and Valravn refer to Apostles as gods. While Valravn doesn't do explicitly, he doesn't argue when MC calls them gods.
Assumption 1) Apostles are not monsters. They are gods of the lowest order and the originators of monsterkind. They are either the keepers of divine power that shaped the universe or the literal expression of these powers. Each power by itself is unable to shape the universe, but when combined they can. We don't know why the Arbiters created these inheritors and vanished but it seems to be the case.
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Clue 2) Aglaecwif hasn't met any monster or human that has inherited the twin powers since the Origin.
Assumption 2) Avatars are nowhere near the real thing. They are puppets to be used by the Apostles and compared to them it's like kids playing with imaginary swords, not even toy ones. They are flawed monster creations that don't really carry the power of Apostles but a mutated version of it, even if they have access to "both" of the traits. Basically what we think is the pinnacle of monster, is nothing compared to what's a step above.
Assumption 3) Aglaecwif has met with at least one of the Apostle avatars. There was some talk in the forum that she is the direct descendant of an Apostle but I can't find the info in the script so I'll just take it for granded because it fits my theory. So the clue and the assumption combined points to Avatars not having the twin powers.
Clue 3) The origin (Eye) while possessing MC, literally says that the place near where the MC's body awakens is a part of him and born of him.
Assumption 4) The origin is all the matter in the universe. Everything that can be described as matter is an extension of it's body.
Based on these clues and assumptions, it seems to me that the avatars do not have the twin traits themselves, rather a mutated combination of them (just like Oil is part Authority, part Body and part Darkness, but doesn't have the actual 3 original traits), but as with all biological things and taking into account the assumption that they are just the "monsters", birthed from the Apostles themselves, it's possible to pass on their genes. Their power is flawed and the actual traits are recessive, but thanks to MC's unique circumstances, having connection to the Origin, he manages to activate these recessive genes when he gets infected.
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I'm stopping here cause I feel like I'm overreaching again. While I'm trying to follow the clues and tie them to what I believe is the inspiration for the setting, the truth is that we don't have enough info for me to substantiate my theories to a point that I'm confident about them.
Here is the dialogue, she mentioned Jake but she wasn't talking about him, she was answering the question about the greatest power:There's a few errors here. Aglaecwif said she hasn't met anyone who's obtained the Order trait since the Origin. That's what she said during that scene, not a spawn that inherited two traits, if I remember right. From what I remember, she was talking about Jake during that scene.
As for the Avatars, they do indeed wield the full power of the Apostle. Their bodies can't withstand the power for that long though which leads to their Avatar's destruction. I believe we learned this in the library or it could've been with Aglaecwif. So that's a bit incorrect. They're not mutations or anything. They're avatars backed by their full strength.
When it comes to Aglaecwif, she says during your first encounter that she shares the same lord as the MC. If he has the 4th, she's more direct about. If you have the 3rd, she questions why there's another spawn of the 3rd which makes it iffy. She could be referring to Ella and is confused why there's another one. Or she could be referring to herself, since that would mean she, Ella, and MC would all be the 3rd's spawn. It's too vague for the 3rd but she's direct with the 4th so it's safe to say she's a descendant of the 4th Apostle. She seems to use the Memory trait on the MC during their encounter. As for the 3rd, it's a big question mark.
Now, I'll go into my own theory about the remaining Apostles(9-12) so that could maybe give you an idea.
9th is possibly Death, 10th is Destruction. Together they make Oblivion or nothingness. The reason I came to this conclusion is because their descendants all follow the 7th. Since his trait is Darkness, Death and Destruction wouldn't get in the way of his goal since they all would contribute to dissolution of the universe. Their concepts wouldn't hinder the 7th like Life or creation would and because of that, you get the stuff below.
11th is Life, 12 is Creation. Together they make Genesis. Since the duality is split up for Death and Destruction, Life and Creation would be together. As such, Genesis would be the combined trait. The beginning/birthing of the universe as a whole.
That what I'm working with currently on the theory side. As for the other stuff in your post, I don't really have an opinion one way or another since I'm all over the place myself. Too much stuff is going on in the background in this game to get any sort of consistency going for me.
As for the power of the avatars, the library mentions that their power is beyond anything that Xanthe has seen, but then again, that doesn't mean that the avatars are as strong as the Apostles. The scope of the powers may be way beyond any human can conceptualize, even someone as brilliant as Xanthe. I mean, if I'm right and the possessed MC is literal with what he says, it IS all of the matter in the universe. I don't think that Xanthe and the rest of the HERO have conceptualized these powers as gods (I mean Benhardt calls the Himavat a "god" but to me that's way too iffy). A simple comparison of an avatar corpse to an S ranked monster doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. It's possible that I missed something though.Female "Perhaps Order, would be the greatest power of all, taking the energy required to make full use of it out of the equation."
You "Order? What is that?"
Female "The power to command all things. To structure all things. To write the laws that govern the universe and to have both the Power and the Authority to enforce them."
Female "I've never personally met a being, human or monster that has acquired it since the origin, although..."
show elinv 205 with dissolve
Female "I did, not long ago, hear talk of a potential inheritor, one your Ella had high hopes for. Though it seems to have ended in a failure. A weak mind can ruin even the greatest potential."
show elinv 207 with dissolve
Female "Still, if it were possible to completely inherit the traits of both the First and the Second, to claim one of the original powers... A spawn that could fully realize that strength would be unfathomably powerful."
Yes, but she was referring to Order specifically not that she hasn't met any being at all that had both traits. That's the error you made in the post. She was only talking about not meeting anyone with the Order trait since the Origin.Here is the dialogue, she mentioned Jake but she wasn't talking about him, she was answering the question about the greatest power:
As for the power of the avatars, the library mentions that their power is beyond anything that Xanthe has seen, but then again, that doesn't mean that the avatars are as strong as the Apostles. The scope of the powers may be way beyond any human can conceptualize, even someone as brilliant as Xanthe. I mean, if I'm right and the possessed MC is literal with what he says, it IS all of the matter in the universe. I don't think that Xanthe and the rest of the HERO have conceptualized these powers as gods (I mean Benhardt calls the Himavat a "god" but to me that's way too iffy). A simple comparison of an avatar corpse to an S ranked monster doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. It's possible that I missed something though.
But yea, my theory is needlessly complex and there are is not enough info to substantiate. It's based on.. ~10 lines of dialogue which are fairly cryptic to begin with.
Since the overall discussion is way too theoritical, I will only respond to this snippet and leave the rest for the later updates.Yes, but she was referring to Order specifically not that she hasn't met any being at all that had both traits. That's the error you made in the post. She was only talking about not meeting anyone with the Order trait since the Origin.
-snip-
The main points of what she says are these:Female "Perhaps Order, would be the greatest power of all, taking the energy required to make full use of it out of the equation."
You "Order? What is that?"
Female "The power to command all things. To structure all things. To write the laws that govern the universe and to have both the Power and the Authority to enforce them."
Female "I've never personally met a being, human or monster that has acquired it since the origin, although..."
show elinv 205 with dissolve
Female "I did, not long ago, hear talk of a potential inheritor, one your Ella had high hopes for. Though it seems to have ended in a failure. A weak mind can ruin even the greatest potential."
show elinv 207 with dissolve
Female "Still, if it were possible to completely inherit the traits of both the First and the Second, to claim one of the original powers... A spawn that could fully realize that strength would be unfathomably powerful."
show elinv 206 with dissolve
Female "Of course inheriting both traits from any of the twin Apostles would make a spawn quite exceptional."
I also feel like we are underestimating the Arbiter as well since from what I can gather it wasn't even at full strength or even close to it going by these:Yeah I feel like we're underestimating the folks at HERO. Even after we "surpassed" level 5 with the Arbiter, Lexi fought fairly well against us and we got our ass handed to us be Deus who isn't even a level 5.
I'd imagine Malik, Bernhardt, and Henri are stronger than him. It kinda felt a little anti climatic tbh. If we lost as the arbiter, would the fully manifested apostles fair any better against the level 5?
Felt the same way. I do think a fully powered Arbiter would annihilate everything but the Origin MC was a bit meh. If Bernhardt and Henri joined the party with Malik, he might've still lost. Especially with Nyx, Deus, and Nico lurking in the back drop.Yeah I feel like we're underestimating the folks at HERO. Even after we "surpassed" level 5 with the Arbiter, Lexi fought fairly well against us and we got our ass handed to us be Deus who isn't even a level 5.
I'd imagine Malik, Bernhardt, and Henri are stronger than him. It kinda felt a little anti climatic tbh. If we lost as the arbiter, would the fully manifested apostles fair any better against the level 5?
I wouldn't say anyone's underestimating the Origin MC. It was just that he boasted power beyond the 5th level, which should mean he's vastly superior to Level 5, from stats alone. Yet, he didn't want to fight Malik until after he got what he was looking for. He couldn't damage Lexi and got his own body manipulated by her powers. He had to smack her outside of the space because he couldn't kill her. He later got the same treatment by Nico when she tossed him into space. Then there's that ending with Deus, which was the most damning of them all.I also feel like we are underestimating the Arbiter as well since from what I can gather it wasn't even at full strength or even close to it going by these:
View attachment 2744518
View attachment 2744521
While its quite certain we still 'surpassed' level 5, Arbiter was just born and is incomplete who knows how damn strong Arbiter actually is...that thought is quite scary.
I also wonder what if MC was level 5 prior to allowing Arbiter to be born would "Imperfect Arbiter" be even stronger despite still not having all his power he must reclaim?
He does express if the MC says no to him being born that he should be patient so perhaps allowing the MC to 'mature' more might be in his best interest (which is why I think the higher the level MC is the better for Arbiter).
View attachment 2744577
Anywho, going by the second image the Arbiter was looking for whatever he needed to reclaim (I suppose to gain the rest of his power) which makes me excited to see how things will pan out in the future when the MC is 'ready'
Yeah Alexis and Nicolette are out of the picture so far in a contest against the incomplete Origin, no doubt about that. I'd wager Clark probably also falls into this category as he admits being one of the weaker Level 5's anyway, and if Nicolette is the strongest of the bunch I just mentioned; Clark ain't cuttin it.Hmm, combat analysis is always fun:
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Possessed MC vs Deus:
Well, Deus used hacks in this fight so I can't take it seriously. Unless he can replicate his "connection-severing" ability under any circumstance, this fight isn't worth talking about. His defense was good, but once MC increased his volume, he fled to find "another point". The attack he showcases, while having some smart applications, isn't very strong against the MC.
Possessed MC vs Alexis:
Despite the Eye being super dumb and not recognizing Alexis power even when witnessing it, Alexis managed to stand up to him for a few seconds and could survive the big punch. But that's all there is to say about her. There is no actual way she can contribute in this fight. She can't win the attrition war. In a team fight against MC, the best she can do is absorb some hits meant for others.
Possessed MC vs Nico:
This matchup is also pointless. Nico (blessed with Clark's light) could hardly deal with Ella. In fact Ella willingly took massive damage in order to spring 2 pitiful traps, and Nico barely survived them. Possessed MC's mass creation is way more absurd than whatever Ella has shown till now. So I think that Nico has absolutely no chance against MC. In a team fight, the best she can do is to teleport her allies out of harms way, because her offensive actions are prone to friendly fire.
Possessed MC vs Nyx:
This depends on how exactly Nyx's powers work. If it's a power contest (Like Jake's commands and Ella's transmutation), I don't think that she can match the possessed MC. If it works differently and she can apply her power without problem, then she is HERO's best chance. In a team fight, assuming that her powers work on a contest, she can play medic and if the team manages to deplete MC's power, she can finish him off.
Possessed MC vs Malik:
Probably the most interesting match up. Technically Malik has an advantage here, but in practice, MC can create so much mass that he can play around Malik's powers. The effect of Malik's attacks seem to have an inverse relation to the area. Basically his wide attacks are just not good enough to completely disintegrate MC (if his attack on Goliath is of any indication), while his narrow attacks don't hit enough mass to be worthwhile. To beat the MC, he would have to catch him in human form and use a narrow attack to completely disintegrate him. If MC increases his volume/area then Malik doesn't have very good answers. Additionally Malik failing to disintegrate Goliath also means that a big enough blunt instrument will survive contact with his protective flames and damage him. Lastly Malik is a caster, so I doubt that he can take too much damage.
Vs other hero members:
We don't know much about Lisa or Lucious to know if their abilities are good match.
Henri's attacks seem to be mental and traditionally MC needs to prepare against them but the Eye is too dumb to do stuff like that.
Bernhard's powers could potentially be a good match if he can use them to restrict MC's flight and limit his capacity to increase his volume. If he can make a cage with those barriers of his he would be really good in a team fight.
Assuming that his clones remain at full power, an army of level 5 bodies can be a very tough foe under circumstances. But without flight or some ranged attack he can't really engage at any meaningful capacity and those clones who do would require support, like Nico dropping them on top of MC.I honestly doubt Lucius could stand a threat, I could be totally wrong. I just don't see how doppelgangers could support against something that breathes slaughter and flesh. You'd be SUPPLYING the Origin in a fight if he managed to kill some. But if Lucius's ability works like I kinda fear it does, where each duplicate has the durability of a Level 5 and just gradually gets worse the more he puts out, that may be a bigger chance. Alas though I still think the Origin takes the cake after seeing how he manhandled Alexis's Level 5 body.
There's gotta be a catch...over 10,000 Level 5 bodies?! That's absurd, there's gotta be a catch of some kind, especially when I don't think he's as highly regarded as Bernhardt or Malik's strength.Assuming that his clones remain at full power, an army of level 5 bodies can be a very tough foe under circumstances. But without flight or some ranged attack he can't really engage at any meaningful capacity and those clones who do would require support, like Nico dropping them on top of MC.
If however Hero have ranged weapons capable of hurting the MC or Lucius himself has some kind of ranged attack, he could be huge trouble. And perhaps controlling numerous ranged attackers is easier than melee ones so he can comfortably make more than usual.
Lucius doesn't just clone himself. He clones his equipment too. So it's a matter of technology. If he could clone himself enough to reach a critical mass that nothing the MC makes can survive long enough to reach him he could be the perfect counter, although other limitations like ammo could ruin his day. He still would need some support, for example against an underground tentacle.
This is a bit of a hard sell.This one fucking line has been taunting me for weeks, I knew something was wrong with it, but I think I finally figured it out!
Unknown: Awaken, Descendent of the Sixth, Granddaughter of the Ether, heir to Space.
It's redundant! Of course, a grandchild is a descendant. Why the repetition? It's just clumsy. One or the other is fine. Why do both--Wait. Both. That's it! Oh, I see what you did, you sneaky motherfucker. It doesn't repeat. They're two separate entities! Alice is the Granddaughter of the Ether and a Descendant of the Sixth Apostle. The Ether is not the Sixth.
First read, I wondered why "ether" so I looked it up. It's an obsolete theory of electromagnetism and gravity. That fit. It's also the name for the fifth classical element of Greek mythology that supposedly filled the heavenly plane. I didn't notice at the time, but now I think the Ether is the Fifth Apostle.
...and the "Heir to Space?" It sounds so very similar to the "potential inheritor" of Order that Aglaecwif describes. Space could be the Original Power unlocked by the traits of the Fifth and the Sixth!
Sorry, Sixspawners. Your cult might need a rename. Also, light-speed is too slow to travel the cosmos, the 8th is probably time. Eight 8 = ∞ Eternity.