VN Ren'Py Superhuman [v0.99999b] [WeirdWorld]

[Dinoflaggelate]

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Fuck, half his power and we were still able to beat him? Man, what a disgrace, even more so after evolving. Cole obviously lost because he lacked skill, but we used tricks, two against one! It doesn't matter, when the difference in power is so great, it doesn't matter

Now, how far can skill take you? Power vs. Skill, which would be superior? Or does it all depend on how big the difference in numbers is?

I'd say that the greater the difference in Power, the more Skill you need to make up for it. If your enemy is too much stronger than you, it doesn't matter how skilled you are, you're just not going to be able to affect them. Cole was almost at that point for the MC and Deryl, they were just barely able to hurt him with their attacks and that's why they had to hit him so much to wear him down. And to take it to the extreme, put a baseline human with transcendental fighting talent against a Bernhardt Gunvald who's forgotten everything he ever learned about fighting, and Bernhardt is still winning because he's a one-man apocalypse.

 

[jjtom000]

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Fuck, half his power and we were still able to beat him? Man, what a disgrace, even more so after evolving. Cole obviously lost because he lacked skill, but we used tricks, two against one! It doesn't matter, when the difference in power is so great, it doesn't matter

To be precise it was 3 against 1, you forgot Limber. Cole would've still brute-forced us without Limber saving our asses at the last moment despite Deyrl's master plan and MC making every correct decision. And Cole's stupidity and lack of skills are one of a kind, that tells you how big of a gap between a lvl3 and a lvl4.

Now, how far can skill take you? Power vs. Skill, which would be superior? Or does it all depend on how big the difference in numbers is?

I think the fight of MC vs lvl3 Cole/lvl4 Cole already kinda answered that. Basically skills is only relevant when the difference in power is not insurmountablely large.

 

[twicethefunn]

I'd say that the greater the difference in Power, the more Skill you need to make up for it. If your enemy is too much stronger than you, it doesn't matter how skilled you are, you're just not going to be able to affect them. Cole was almost at that point for the MC and Deryl, they were just barely able to hurt him with their attacks and that's why they had to hit him so much to wear him down. And to take it to the extreme, put a baseline human with transcendental fighting talent against a Bernhardt Gunvald who's forgotten everything he ever learned about fighting, and Bernhardt is still winning because he's a one-man apocalypse.

Hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby, or Amnesiac Bernhardt vs Human Michael

 

[jjtom000]

Christie when remembering Cole, mentioned that he just seemed like a pretty boy with a very shy personality

Wait this is some interesting info I don't think I remember this. Do you remember when did she say that?

 

[jjtom000]

Yeah, he releases it from time to time. The guys on Discord post there when he releases a new one (brother Disp or someone else sends them here too). If you want, here are the ones released so far:

Spoiler: Sheets

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Man I just noticed the weights of the big monsters are really messed up. I'm convinced the monsters were made of styrofoam or sth.

 

[Dipasimaan]

Yeah, he releases it from time to time. The guys on Discord post there when he releases a new one (brother Disp or someone else sends them here too). If you want, here are the ones released so far:

Spoiler: Sheets

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I'm now Brother Disp, that is my name.

 

[Zolrazz]

I simply agree with everything you've said, neither is the way, but the combination of both

Have enough power to crush those weaker than you, but all it takes is someone with little power but extreme skill to rub your face in the dirt. Or have the skill of 100 trained men, untouchable and tireless, only to die to a monster that can destroy a city with one hand. Simply put, there's no point in just going one way, even if it depends a lot on the circumstances, lose too much one way and you'll die

We've already had situations like this in the game, if I remember

 

[Blaze_Lumini]

Do you guys feel like Ella was/is using Cole as a scapegoat for SIN?

I started to feel that way in convos with Doll Ella when she talks about how SIN has never done anything really evil, it was either Talos who she says they're not with, or Cole, who she blames for pretty much every negative thing SIN has done.

In a sense this is true, Cole was the guy who popped the newscaster, he's clearly the most antagonistic and bloodthirsty of the bunch, but what I'm wondering is if Ella intentionally manipulated him into being that way so she could have someone to do all the 'dirty work' for her, push MC to get stronger, and then throw away at the end once she's got MC and just go "oh nooo that was all cole bb we'reso nice and sweet pls join SIN we're not like him at all".

Ella seems to genuinely love her "siblings", but other than occasionally swooping in to save the day or giving them food/shelter (younger), training/guidance(older) she tends to take a watch-and-see approach, letting them grow however they desire. As for Cole, Ella definitely holds some disdain/frustration towards him, what with him threatening and beating up his siblings, letting his arrogance and anger dictate his actions to the point of hindering Ella's plans, and even outright threatening her at one point (to "accidentally" losing the collected artifacts). But even then she seems to just let him do as he wants, with the twist being she seems willing to let him dig his own grave. "Ella Doll: Who am I to step in between a fight among men?". The only way I'd say Ella contributed to Cole's fucked up personality was by not intervening earlier on or realizing the effect of telling him about "her chosen". From my point of view, Ella only told him about "her chosen" because of how close the two were and she wanted to open up about her hope the MC could give her. Pretty normal for a younger brother/older sister talk.

I will agree that Ella's plans and schemes play a part at times, such as manipulating Charlie against H.E.R.O. so that she will aid in Ella's plans. (Though admittedly not seeming to outright lie, there did seem to be some twisting of the truth a little.)

As for S.I.N. Ella couldn't care less for the org. It was solely created to act as a distraction to H.E.R.O. while Ella went about her schemes as well as a bargaining chip against Langdon to get his aid in finding the artifacts. Even the other siblings call S.I.N. "Cole's little pet project" considering he's the only one who cares and enjoyed adding his own fucked up preferences to the org.

 

[Dinoflaggelate]

Man I just noticed the weights of the big monsters are really messed up. I'm convinced the monsters were made of styrofoam or sth.

It looks like Weirdworld forgot about the square-cube law. He took the scaling factor between a monster and a human for height and applied it to mass, but forgot that that only works if you only increase size on one axis. If these monsters were all extremely skinny, that would be the right mass, but they're not, so they're ridiculously low density.

 

[Blaze_Lumini]

To be precise it was 3 against 1, you forgot Limber. Cole would've still brute-forced us without Limber saving our asses at the last moment despite Deyrl's master plan and MC making every correct decision. And Cole's stupidity and lack of skills are one of a kind, that tells you how big of a gap between a lvl3 and a lvl4.



I think the fight of MC vs lvl3 Cole/lvl4 Cole already kinda answered that. Basically skills is only relevant when the difference in power is not insurmountablely large.

I could be wrong, but a third party only jumps in and plays a major part if you are lacking in "ColeWinPoints" which depends on correct choices and a skill check. On the perfect run, Liz/Amber only shows up to deliriously question Cole (much to his confusion) and absorb a tiny amount of power before being blown away. The other two routes involve a third party needing to jump in to help and a dead end (I personally haven't seen these, will need to view them during my replay.)

 

[obibobi]

Some of the arguments about power and skill are too simple, there are a number of factors, power and skill just stand out because they are things we the audience can visually measure, but there could be all sorts of factors that Weird will decide matter or matter more, some powers are just better, some powers are a bad match up for another, for instance even if the MC reached level 4, if he doesn't get a handle on handling electric, a level 3 Met would wipe the floor with him. Nico is going to dominate someone who could be completely immortal and have near limitless strength but struggle with someone who is very agile. Then there could be unknown factors, that we are still only guessing at, how much does the MC's regeneration place him above the average person of his power level, how much does Alice's destructive power?

Then of absolute critical importance, the power of plot, things need to happen for the plot to continue, and some of these power levels could just be pulled out of the authors ass.

For us the readers, Cole had more power, the MC made up the difference by fighting with smarts, and you could also say, a powerset that wasn't completely at the Mercy of Cole's, so it works within the story that he can beat Cole.

 

[jjtom000]

I could be wrong, but a third party only jumps in and plays a major part if you are lacking in "ColeWinPoints" which depends on correct choices and a skill check. On the perfect run, Liz/Amber only shows up to deliriously question Cole (much to his confusion) and absorb a tiny amount of power before being blown away. The other two routes involve a third party needing to jump in to help and a dead end (I personally haven't seen these, will need to view them during my replay.)

I checked the walkthrough and my run was perfect. My point of "Limber saving our asses" was referring to her teleporting Deyrl and MC away. Without Limber's intervention Deyrl would've met certain death on Cole's hand while MC can do nothing but watch due to Cole's Heat Zone, and then MC would be next as he was frozen and about to be erased by Cole chest beam before Limber teleported him away, and even if he somehow lives without Limber's help he still stands no chance against Cole without Deyrl's stone(and maybe Limber weakening his power) and still dies. So yeah Limber did much more than causing Cole some confusion. We were actually fucked without her.

 

[jjtom000]

Some of the arguments about power and skill are too simple, there are a number of factors, power and skill just stand out because they are things we the audience can visually measure, but there could be all sorts of factors that Weird will decide matter or matter more, some powers are just better, some powers are a bad match up for another, for instance even if the MC reached level 4, if he doesn't get a handle on handling electric, a level 3 Met would wipe the floor with him. Nico is going to dominate someone who could be completely immortal and have near limitless strength but struggle with someone who is very agile. Then there could be unknown factors, that we are still only guessing at, how much does the MC's regeneration place him above the average person of his power level, how much does Alice's destructive power?

Then of absolute critical importance, the power of plot, things need to happen for the plot to continue, and some of these power levels could just be pulled out of the authors ass.

For us the readers, Cole had more power, the MC made up the difference by fighting with smarts, and you could also say, a powerset that wasn't completely at the Mercy of Cole's, so it works within the story that he can beat Cole.

Yeah being able to survive your head getting exploded was hell of an advantage against Cole. As Ella said just surviving Cole's power would be hell for most SH, so it's somewhat understandable that he has such pathetic skills given he probably never needed it to win a fight. It's also the same reason why Danica has single digital skill point(even lower than Cole lol). Suffering from success one might say.

 

[twicethefunn]

Yeah being able to survive your head getting exploded was hell of an advantage against Cole. As Ella said just surviving Cole's power would be hell for most SH, so it's somewhat understandable that he has such pathetic skills given he probably never needed it to win a fight. It's also the same reason why Danica has single digital skill point(even lower than Cole lol). Suffering from success one might say.

Reminds me of Frieza from DBZ. He was just naturally absurdly strong, so he'd never once trained in his life. When he finally actually tried training in DBS, he become exponentially more dangerous. I imagine once Cole heals (if he hasn't already, how long has the gang been in the monster world exactly?) then he'll probably put some serious effort into improving himself after being defeated by someone he sees as lesser. Either that or he'll be a petulant child and make up a thousand excuses.

 

[Blaze_Lumini]

Reminds me of Frieza from DBZ. He was just naturally absurdly strong, so he'd never once trained in his life. When he finally actually tried training in DBS, he become exponentially more dangerous. I imagine once Cole heals (if he hasn't already, how long has the gang been in the monster world exactly?) then he'll probably put some serious effort into improving himself after being defeated by someone he sees as lesser. Either that or he'll be a petulant child and make up a thousand excuses.

That's assuming Cole walks away from Tanos' surgery table (Read: cutting board) sane and in one piece. Considering Cole was the only one among the siblings to know Tanos' true nature and the fact that Cole had already crossed Tanos, I highly doubt it. Tanos had already contemplated bringing Cole in line, and he was given free access to do it in the worst possible way. And to think, Cole's siblings happily delivered him to Tanos for "treatment". Very much karma for being an ass and arrogantly thinking he could take on anybody on his own.

 

[jjtom000]

It looks like Weirdworld forgot about the square-cube law. He took the scaling factor between a monster and a human for height and applied it to mass, but forgot that that only works if you only increase size on one axis. If these monsters were all extremely skinny, that would be the right mass, but they're not, so they're ridiculously low density.

Someone needs to tell WW to fix this lol. These weight data sticks out like a sore thumb in his usually convincing enough writing of maths and physics.

 

[Dinoflaggelate]

That's assuming Cole walks away from Tanos' surgery table (Read: cutting board) sane and in one piece. Considering Cole was the only one among the siblings to know Tanos' true nature and the fact that Cole had already crossed Tanos, I highly doubt it. Tanos had already contemplated bringing Cole in line, and he was given free access to do it in the worst possible way. And to think, Cole's siblings happily delivered him to Tanos for "treatment". Very much karma for being an ass and arrogantly thinking he could take on anybody on his own.

Yeah, the way Tanos says that he's going to fix every last detail wrong with Cole and make him better than ever does not suggest a genuine desire to heal him, to me. I think he's going to turn Cole into a Chimera under his control. Tanos likes lies of omission where he technically tells the truth and just lets people assume something different from what he meant. And Cole's free will would certainly be something Tanos would see as something wrong with him. Turning him into some zombified attack dog feels worryingly plausible. I can easily imagine a scenario where the MC starts a rematch with Chimera Cole only to realize something's wrong when he notices that Cole isn't screaming about how he hates the MC and will be The One.

 

[One_Black_Sun]

Yeah but I meant in comparison to the Mc, who's still a level 3. By the time the Mc reaches level four too the time gap will be pretty substantial.

Right. I forgot about the huge time gap.

 

[jjtom000]

That's assuming Cole walks away from Tanos' surgery table (Read: cutting board) sane and in one piece. Considering Cole was the only one among the siblings to know Tanos' true nature and the fact that Cole had already crossed Tanos, I highly doubt it. Tanos had already contemplated bringing Cole in line, and he was given free access to do it in the worst possible way. And to think, Cole's siblings happily delivered him to Tanos for "treatment". Very much karma for being an ass and arrogantly thinking he could take on anybody on his own.

I still don't understand the reason of the drastically different attitudes to Tanos between Cole's and other Ella's kids given they more or less went through the same thing.

 

[OnlyNeverNow]

I feel dumb even asking this, but is there ever a scene of MC trying to turn into rubber or something to see if electricity still has any effect? I'm sure it wouldn't work, but has he ever even tried?

Like... it would be fucking hilarious if after an entire game of worrying about it, he just uses Gomu Gomu No Super Mega Death Spear of Doom and whacks Met across the country