VN Ren'Py Lilith Rising [v2.0.11ns] [Jubei]

[Kadajko]

like I said if it's something you don't like, don't play it and move on.

simple.

I mean.. yeah, obviously, I am just expressing my opinion on what I want to see, same as you.

 

[Deleted member 4865569]

I mean.. yeah, obviously, I am just expressing my opinion on what I want to see, same as you.

I agree.

we all got our opinions and you also free to yours.

have a good day.

 

[Simulacrum29]

From the upload guidelines:
Harem [1 person being courted by at least 3 others, all engaging in consensual sex simultaneously.]
https://f95zone.to/threads/tags-rules-and-list-updated-2021-05-02.10394/

Do you have a idea how stressful is writing all the female leads in a way so that they are OK with this? Put yourself in their shoes.
Not everyone is Robert Jordan (assuming your opinion is that he managed it... in 10-12 doorstopping books and with only 3 girls among a humongous cast) so the risk of ending up with bland, doormatish and uninteresting LIs is not negligible.
Specially if the number is higher than 3.

Anyway, Jubei said that he will try to implement some sort of harem, two post before your initial one, so we'll all see how it'll work out.

I get what you mean, but.

If you have your Characters, their core values, wants, and needs. You can write a coherent story with a harem without making all LIs sameish.
It's like creating Characters for an adversarial Adventureparty in a D&D campaign. They all have the same Goal. Their reasons why are different, how they act, and react to certain things is different. Only because they are all in the same Boat doesn't mean they should lose their personality. If You (as the writer) are consistent with the character's base stats. The characters differ naturally. Is it really too much to ask for a good Harem story with Great Characters?

 

[Kadajko]

we all got our opinions and you also free to yours.

I am just curious though, if there was a nice harem game in which there was no NTR bating what so ever, nothing related to NTR that is thrown at the player forcefully, but say there was an option for the player to say to any LI: ''Hey, I think it would be cool if you fucked a bunch of other dudes'' And then the LI would say ''Yeah, that's a cool idea.'' Then there would be some sex scene where they are gangbanged by a bunch of dudes and enjoy it very much, and then they return to the MC and say ''Yes, I really enjoyed that, thank you for suggesting that.'' But none of that would ever happen unless MC directly asked the LI to try that. Would that not devalue the LI's in your eyes? Since you would never see any of that if you were interested in only harem.

 

[Deleted member 4865569]

I am just curious though, if there was a nice harem game in which there was no NTR bating what so ever, nothing related to NTR that is thrown at the player forcefully, but say there was an option for the player to say to any LI: ''Hey, I think it would be cool if you fucked a bunch of other dudes'' And then the LI would say ''Yeah, that's a cool idea.'' Then there would be some sex scene where they are gangbanged by a bunch of dudes and enjoy it very much, and then they return to the MC and say ''Yes, I really enjoyed that, thank you for suggesting that.'' But none of that would ever happen unless MC directly asked the LI to try that. Would that not devalue the LI's in your eyes? Since you would never see any of that if you were interested in only harem.

well that's what I like to call SURPRISE NTR and I stay away from games like that.

that 100% ruins the harem experience because it's SHARING which I don't do.

Most devs that is experienced in writing harems for harem fans knows having SLUTS or Dialog or optional sharing is a nono for harem players. It's NTR zone.

it's bad writing in general and it would get the well deserved BAD feedback from harem fans.

if the LI is not a slut and the mc is not into cucking or sharing and out of no where says how he would want to share his wife/gf etc as a option then it's bad writing or both the mc and the wife because it's out of there element. also it's bad writing from the dev because if he made a harem game that grabbed harem fans and out of no where added it, it's a failure on his part for not knowing his/her fanbase on that specific game and genre.

so yes it absolutely devalues both the LI and MC which turning him into a cuck and the LI into a slut.

Real harems don't have any sharing of the LIs period or any form of ntr.

hell even optional ntr is a nono which is why when I play harems I would only play a optional ntr is it's NOT IN the love path which means.

NO NTR DIALOG.
NO NTR BAITING.
NOTHING.

which is why I used the only optional ntr harem game I am playing called AlwaysFans because it's like 2 seperate games depending on the route.

Also it has a single LI route as well for people who don't like harems. I didn't play the single LI route tho.

 

[Kadajko]

well that's what I like to call SURPRISE NTR and I stay away from games like that.

There is no surprise, it is a choice that you make, if you just don't select that option nothing ever happens, it is not forced on you in any way.

that 100% ruins the harem experience because it's SHARING which I don't do.

But you can avoid it 100%.

Most devs that is experienced in writing harems for harem fans knows having SLUTS or Dialog or optional sharing is a nono for harem players. It's NTR zone.

There we go, now maybe you can understand why I am not keen on OPTIONAL harem.

if the LI is not a slut and the mc is not into cucking or sharing and out of no where says how he would want to share his wife/gf etc it's bad writing or both the mc and the wife because it's out of there element.

But You would never know if LI is a slut and into sharing unless you select that option. You see:

Hey, I don't know what your problem is. Even with a harem NTR route you still can choose a Single LI Harem. Neither I nor anybody else will stand beside you and hold a gun to your head, demanding to choose all LIs in a single Playthrough NTR options.

Now you understand?

 

[Simulacrum29]

I am just curious though, if there was a nice harem game in which there was no NTR bating what so ever, nothing related to NTR that is thrown at the player forcefully, but say there was an option for the player to say to any LI: ''Hey, I think it would be cool if you fucked a bunch of other dudes'' And then the LI would say ''Yeah, that's a cool idea.'' Then there would be some sex scene where they are gangbanged by a bunch of dudes and enjoy it very much, and then they return to the MC and say ''Yes, I really enjoyed that, thank you for suggesting that.'' But none of that would ever happen unless MC directly asked the LI to try that. Would that not devalue the LI's in your eyes? Since you would never see any of that if you were interested in only harem.

If it's like you described man, schrödingers personality. If it isn't unavoidable, I don't care.
But at the same time, I won't support that dev, it's the same with food I don't pay money to any company, to get fake Tofu sausages that taste like worn boots.

Well, to be honest if I'm pissed off enough. I will tell him/her/they that it was a stupid idea to do that. But in the end, why should I care it's their bottomline that tanks, not mine.

 

[Deleted member 4865569]

There is no surprise, it is a choice that you make, if you just don't select that option nothing ever happens, it is not forced on you in any way.



But you can avoid it 100%.



There we go, now maybe you can understand why I am not keen on OPTIONAL harem.



But You would never know if LI is a slut and into sharing unless you select that option. You see:



Now you understand?

by surprise ntr I meant a game that NEVER was suppose to have SHARING/NTR in it period then out of no where ADDS IT.
that's surprise ntr, including the options for the ntr/sharing. Even if you can avoid it, I don't trust devs who swore they will never add optional sharing/ntr in a harem game.

now if a game is upfront and has it at the start and it's optional then yes I would maybe play it depending the route is seperate.

but I don't touch barely any optional ntr games, like I said I move on if it's something that's not to my liking.

we can talk about HAREM being optional etc all day but naw.

if it ruins it for you then it's not for you just like how if something I don't like, it's not for me. All opitional content depends.

now can we nip this conversation in the dud? at the end of the day, it all comes down to writing and how you write the characters in situations or on paths and routes.

 

[Kadajko]

if it ruins it for you then it's not for you just like how if something I don't like, it's not for me.

No, absolutely, I just really wanted to answer this specifically:

yea i don't see how having a choice to pursue a harem route stops anyone or him from only going for 1 LI.....

Like kinda weird to say "no harem, only single LIs" just because it have a harem.

And I did, because now you understand, but now, yeah we both agree that to each their own.

 

[Simulacrum29]

There is no surprise, it is a choice that you make, if you just don't select that option nothing ever happens, it is not forced on you in any way.



But you can avoid it 100%.



There we go, now maybe you can understand why I am not keen on OPTIONAL harem.



But You would never know if LI is a slut and into sharing unless you select that option. You see:



Now you understand?

Why do you think dozen of people flood every new threat with questions like "Is NTR Avoidable?", "Will this game have Fetish X,Y,Z?"?

If the Devs would start to be honest about what they are planning, there would be no need for that shit in the first place.

If one of your favorite games, maybe even one you supported on Patreon. Changed his direction unannounced, MC has a Mental breakdown, kills all LIs, and is fucking them for the rest of that update, Beheading and headless throatfuck all-inclusive.

Would you be happy? Honest answer?

If someone can't stomach NTR and The Dev said in his first Post NTR-Game stay clear. Only idiots are staying to complain.
If Nothing is specified He gets asked if NTR is Avoidable. Probably multiple times. Yes, there are people, that voice their dissatisfaction, but honestly, that is not different from what we are doing right now. But the majority abandons the threat maybe they give that Ignore button a light slap on their way out and that's it.

So Why So Serious Bruh? has a point if it was never mentioned and not tagged or in the future tags. Then it happens unannounced it is surprise-NTR because it comes, in fact surprising. I would be equally and unpleasant surprised if I was in a Movie theater with my five-year-old nephew and they start playing porn. Because that is something I would not expect to happen.

If the Dev has had the NTR tag from the very beginning, then I would be the Idiot for following that part.

 

[Kadajko]

@Simulacrum29

In my hypothetical example NTR would be mentioned in the tags, but would be completely optional. The point was to answer why I am bothered by harem if it is optional.

 

[Simulacrum29]

@Simulacrum29

In my hypothetical example NTR would be mentioned in the tags, but would be completely optional. The point was to answer why I am bothered by harem if it is optional.

OK I had that case included in my answer, "If the Dev has had the NTR tag from the very beginning, then I would be the Idiot for following that part."

But without tags, you can't know if The Dev had a funny day or if it's real NTR because it has become kind of a meme. Thirsty for my Guest is one example.
And in another game that I don't recall right now, there is an unavoidable NTR scene where a LI kisses another LI on the cheek (a peck) while MC is not present (HaHaHa )

 

[Kadajko]

OK I had that case included in my answer, "If the Dev has had the NTR tag from the very beginning, then I would be the Idiot for following that part."

Yeah, we need some of those: ''Game includes harem! You have been warned!'' or ''No harem! Comments asking about harem will be deleted!''

 

[The Rogue Trader]

It's like creating Characters for an adversarial Adventureparty in a D&D campaign. They all have the same Goal. Their reasons why are different, how they act, and react to certain things is different. Only because they are all in the same Boat doesn't mean they should lose their personality. If You (as the writer) are consistent with the character's base stats. The characters differ naturally. Is it really too much to ask for a good Harem story with Great Characters?

The problem is that the goal of an adventuring party usually is shareable: Defeat the Dark Lord Of Evil -> everyone is happy. Establish an Imperial Outpost on this Unexplored Land -> there's room and roles for everyone.
But in my days as both a GM and a player, everyone knew that when it came the moment when the party started dividing the loot, blades were going to flash.
A party that shared the same goal and that goal was something scarce like "Acquire the Ring of Ultimate Badassery" can exist, of course. But only a few character types won't try to grab the Ring for themselves at the end, but agree to share it with the other companions (whom they often have very little reason to respect in the first place).
Even Tolkien, in his party of all goody two shoes had the problem of divergent intermediate goals even when they all shared the same ultimate goal.
Again: put yourself in the LIs shoes and you'll see that you don't have many personalities that would be OK with "Oh, my sweetheart not only fucks, but also romances a) my best friend; b) my utmost rival; c) this slutty commoner that's so below my station and d) that creature that's not even really human. We are one big happy family."

One way to escape the problem is having parallel threads, where the MC romances any girl independently, and every branch doesn't acknowledge that there might be other girls. Maybe they're pretending not to see, maybe the MC is sneaky enough to juggle all those relationships, we aren't going to know. Quite easy on the dev, but I don't think it can apply to Tainted.
It also doesn't trigger the Harem tag, as per the upload tag rules.

Another way is to have only a subset of the girls being OK with sharing their guy in a polyamorous relationship with those few gals they really respect and feel bonded to. "What I have, my blade-sisters can have too." But again, this can't work with every possible character and you, as a writer, will have a lot of extra work to justify their behaviour.
And it would mean not all the content will be available on the same playthrough. I'm sure that it's something the harem lovers don't like at all.

And of course there's the cheaty way out, that we fantasy authors can play when we start feeling we are writing ourselves in a corner: "Oh, you know, this setting has legal polygamy, so the girls are kinda expected to share."

Now, let's cut the dev some slack and see how he's planning to do it.

 

[Freki.g]

by surprise ntr I meant a game that NEVER was suppose to have SHARING/NTR in it period then out of no where ADDS IT.
that's surprise ntr, including the options for the ntr/sharing. Even if you can avoid it, I don't trust devs who swore they will never add optional sharing/ntr in a harem game.

now if a game is upfront and has it at the start and it's optional then yes I would maybe play it depending the route is seperate.

but I don't touch barely any optional ntr games, like I said I move on if it's something that's not to my liking.

we can talk about HAREM being optional etc all day but naw.

if it ruins it for you then it's not for you just like how if something I don't like, it's not for me. All opitional content depends.

now can we nip this conversation in the dud? at the end of the day, it all comes down to writing and how you write the characters in situations or on paths and routes.

The conversation did not seem disastrous to me, on the contrary I consider it constructive.
In short, it is fiction, formalizing on tags seems excessive to me, from my point of view it is like reading a book or watching a film, it is true each of us can prefer one genre rather than another, but if a story is written well it can happen that you change your opinion about a genre they didn't appreciate, at least in my case it happened more than once.
For the rest, this discussion can only be harmful for the dev, as it could destabilize him from realizing something that he was particularly passionate about, with further damage for the viewer who has lost the opportunity to witness an unexpected thrill that would have fascinated them during the entertainment.
Apart from the fact that, it is not mandatory to read, watch, listen, play with something that is not to one's liking.

 

[Simulacrum29]

The problem is that the goal of an adventuring party usually is shareable: Defeat the Dark Lord Of Evil -> everyone is happy. Establish an Imperial Outpost on this Unexplored Land -> there's room and roles for everyone.
But in my days as both a GM and a player, everyone knew that when it came the moment when the party started dividing the loot, blades were going to flash.
A party that shared the same goal and that goal was something scarce like "Acquire the Ring of Ultimate Badassery" can exist, of course. But only a few character types won't try to grab the Ring for themselves at the end, but agree to share it with the other companions (whom they often have very little reason to respect in the first place).
Even Tolkien, in his party of all goody two shoes had the problem of divergent intermediate goals even when they all shared the same ultimate goal.

That's why I said an adversarial Adventuring party. As in a group of NPCs to give the Players added Motivation or hurdles to take. I generally don't tell my players what they should do. But the NPCs are my domain.

Yes, there are different types of Groups and different types of Team members. Boromir was from the very beginning only interested in securing the Ring for Gondor. And Frodo never wanted a Group to begin with, so it's no wonder the Group split.

But you can make the Group have complementary or equal Core Values so that they go naturally along with each other. They can have deep and meaningful friendships with each other, so betrayal is not even a consideration. They Could all belong to the same Organization or Group so they are not Questbound but their whole life is organized around their Org.

As Story Teller or Dev its your field day.

Again: put yourself in the LIs shoes and you'll see that you don't have many personalities that would be OK with "Oh, my sweetheart not only fucks, but also romances a) my best friend; b) my utmost rival; c) this slutty commoner that's so below my station and d) that creature that's not even really human. We are one big happy family."

I can't agree with you on that, at least not in full.

Yes, there are some character traits that you shouldn't have in a LI or only super subdued if you decide to make a Harem work.
You can't make a super jealous LI for example, but Super jealous is generally not healthy Harem or not.

You can't do a racist chick if you have other LIs with different ethnicities, but Again That is equally bad for a single LI.

Possessiveness is bad but can work the same as your example c) / The Other LIs are no match for me, and as long as Darling is happy he will never betray me / I give him Options others can't because I'm the best possible GF.

There is always the angle of an LI that has no problem with it as long as she doesn't need to hear about it.

You have endless options / Ok not endless, but the Sister that loves you but masks it with hate. All while being a Cam model is also not the freshest take.

One way to escape the problem is having parallel threads, where the MC romances any girl independently, and every branch doesn't acknowledge that there might be other girls. Maybe they're pretending not to see, maybe the MC is sneaky enough to juggle all those relationships, we aren't going to know. Quite easy on the dev, but I don't think it can apply to Tainted.
It also doesn't trigger the Harem tag, as per the upload tag rules.

Strictly speaking, you talk about paths, and as long as the game is not a Kinetic Novel, that needs to happen regardless of harem or not. Normally you learn more about the LIs and fool around a bit before the Harem starts. And Threesomes are planned content according to Dev, so some of them aren't against it per se. The game only needs one Path where all the loose ends get tied together

Varying behavior in different paths is also something that Devs, use frequently and with great success.

Another way is to have only a subset of the girls being OK with sharing their guy in a polyamorous relationship with those few gals they really respect and feel bonded to. "What I have, my blade-sisters can have too." But again, this can't work with every possible character and you, as a writer, will have a lot of extra work to justify their behaviour.
And it would mean not all the content will be available on the same playthrough. I'm sure that it's something the harem lovers don't like at all.

Say "NO" to fake Harems!

Seriously don't do that!

And of course there's the cheaty way out, that we fantasy authors can play when we start feeling we are writing ourselves in a corner: "Oh, you know, this setting has legal polygamy, so the girls are kinda expected to share."

Now, let's cut the dev some slack and see how he's planning to do it.

simple but sophisticated the best way to do it

 

[Joubei]

Ok, so the original plan is:

Spoiler

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Hope this clears this out.

 

[Joubei]

...if a story is written well it can happen that you change your opinion about a genre they didn't appreciate, at least in my case it happened more than once.
...opportunity to witness an unexpected thrill that would have fascinated them during the entertainment...

100% agreed!

Sometimes if its written right, an encounter that I usually don't enjoy suddenly becomes fascinating.

BUT with that said I also found this way, that I have some red lines - for instance NTR... Apparently it seems unnatural to me...
at the same time, I understand that different folks have different strokes, and more power to them.

 

[Havik79]

Not sure about this one, the quality is really good, and Gwen is super cute, but the quests when there is no sandbox are odd, and I laughed my ass off at the cabin we fix up, by somehow making it now even the same building, it goes from flat on the ground made of bricks, to raised with concrete walls, and the story is iffy at best, we couldn't kill the demon thing, but now we go back with no more experience and hope to do what, get our ass kicked and run like a bitch again.

Pissed even if you reject the witch you are still forced to have her jerk you off, like fuck off why am I being forced to do stuff with a bitch who is clearly up to her neck in setting all this up.

 

[Gorse]

Hey Joubei,

Here are some fan signatures for "Tainted"*, requested by BaasB in the great GFX-request-thread,
for you & all fans of the game much more visibly shared here directly:

Freja - Fan-Signature
300 x 124 px / 0,98 MB (Gorse)



LINK: https://attachments.f95zone.to/2022/12/2254157_FrejaTsiG.gif
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Gwen - Fan-Signature
300 x 124 px / 0,94 MB (Gorse)



LINK: https://attachments.f95zone.to/2022/12/2254158_GwenTsiG.gif
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Ishi- Fan-Signature
300 x 124 px / 0,94 MB (Gorse)



LINK: https://attachments.f95zone.to/2022/12/2254159_IshiTsiG.gif
____________________________________________________________________________________________

Jezz- Fan-Signature
300 x 124 px / 0,95 MB (Gorse)



LINK: https://attachments.f95zone.to/2022/12/2254160_JezzTsiG.gif
____________________________________________________________________________________________

Silvie- Fan-Signature
300 x 124 px / 1 MB (Gorse)



LINK: https://attachments.f95zone.to/2022/12/2254161_SilvieTsiG.gif
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Sophie- Fan-Signature
300 x 124 px / 0,96 MB (Gorse)



LINK: https://attachments.f95zone.to/2022/12/2254162_SophieTsiG.gif
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Valery- Fan-Signature
300 x 124 px / 0,84 MB (Gorse)



LINK: https://attachments.f95zone.to/2022/12/2254163_ValeTsiG.gif
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Freja - S p e c i a l Sig *
300 x 124 px / 0,9 MB (Gorse)




LINK: https://attachments.f95zone.to/2023/03/2499988_Frej_siG.gif
---
* as requested by Joubei
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Spoiler: How to use a GIF in your signature

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Just feel free to use (up to two of) the Sigs in your signature...
and please add a link to them in this threads first post, so that all can find them.

All the best for you and the further development of your game!
Cheers and enjoy!
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* Due to a stupid marketing advised game title name change these sigs are obsolete now.
Please understand that I have no intention to update this post with new sigs instead.