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balitz Method

Active Member
Jan 30, 2018
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Encounter/Outcome variants for Flaccid, Cage and many others exist. It may simply be a matter of creating encounter variant scenes for FemHiro that adjusts the dialogue and responses while keeping most of it the same. You're still the same Hero, you just react differently to their dirty talk and they aren't implying you're lesser for being a 'man' and instead more because you're an impure slut that claims to be a Hero.
This is bigger than some slight variants on existing scenes. For it to at all make sense every single scene that takes this angle (which make up the majority of the game) would need to be completely rewritten. It amounts to rewriting the entire game to cater to a few people who need to hear "I respect and acknowledge your differentiated identification" as they're raped into a puddle of their own gendered fluids.

If it had been pursued earlier it wouldn't be much of an issue but trying to do it now would turn out one of two ways:

a) it holds up development as meticulous care is taken to go back and redo everything to take this change into account

b) it's implemented in a half-arsed way that barely acknowledges it, like the breast size feature

I just don't see it happening because the implementation wouldn't please anyone.
 
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RC-1138 Boss

Message Maven
Apr 26, 2017
13,493
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This is bigger than some slight variants on existing scenes. For it to at all make sense every single scene that takes this angle (which make up the majority of the game) would need to be completely rewritten. It amounts to rewriting the entire game to cater to a few people.
You may want to check the previous page. Developer themselves put a end to this discussion.
 
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Twiton

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2019
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Yeah whats greate but still know you game played by heterosexuals, soo dont make to much Trudy-x-Kaylira-x-Hiro content.
I hope they don't make any more content with Hiro at all. All of it from now on should be from the perspective of the Hairdresser.
 
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Twiton

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2019
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I mean just by reading a bit you can get that straight people aren't the target audience.
What do you mean? This game is mostly made up of scenes with men and women having sexual activities, that's straight. True, there's a lot of male on male sexual content but it's balanced by a large amount of similar female content. I'd say this game appeals to all audiences!
 
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balitz Method

Active Member
Jan 30, 2018
934
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You may want to check the previous page. Developer themselves put a end to this discussion.
My read of that response leans heavily toward half-hearted pseudoimplementation as the most likely form for it.

"We don't think it matters that much and if people want it that bad then whatever" sounds to me like they're not planning on heavily supporting it or going back to change any old scenes, that sticking a parser in and calling it a day is about all the thought they'd put into it, so it's truly a move that would please no one.
 

Dexter1927

Member
Aug 7, 2019
155
238
I am straight and I do not mind that the game does not have so many sexual scenes for straight men.
honestly i just thing this game is made for people who likes chicks with dicks, , doesn't matter if straight by's or 3 headed chickens, the games says tales of androgyny and should talk about Androgyny, lets just all be friends in the name of Majalis duo, and remember, we got big tiddy goth giant gf before it was mainstream, AND with a twist, so see ya in peace *drops mic*
 

Twiton

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2019
1,858
2,497
honestly i just thing this game is made for people who likes chicks with dicks, , doesn't matter if straight by's or 3 headed chickens, the games says tales of androgyny and should talk about Androgyny, lets just all be friends in the name of Majalis duo, and remember, we got big tiddy goth giant gf before it was mainstream, AND with a twist, so see ya in peace *drops mic*
Big Dick Goth Giant Tiddy GF*
 

Majalis (ToA)

Member
Jul 31, 2019
231
876
My read of that response leans heavily toward half-hearted pseudoimplementation as the most likely form for it.

"We don't think it matters that much and if people want it that bad then whatever" sounds to me like they're not planning on heavily supporting it or going back to change any old scenes, that sticking a parser in and calling it a day is about all the thought they'd put into it, so it's truly a move that would please no one.
I didn't say that at all. I said these arguments (that assume/disregard LOE and also assume what our priorities are by misreading or hyperextrapolating from things we have said or just completely guessing) aren't good.

At some point, we'll be done with all of the high priority items for ToA, and any size feature request can be accommodated, because our budget and support timeline are not fixed. As long as people want those things, and we're willing to do them, they can be done. And we'll be making those decisions based on our own informed understanding of the LOE, not generic appeals to LOE that try to game theory their way to their preferred outcome (ie "don't add this feature I don't like because it's literally impossible to add it in a way that will 'please everyone'" or will "please no one", which assumes, of course, that we want to please absolutely everyone with every feature we implement).

As more misinterpretation fodder: the original vision for the game includes variable character attitude and self-identification. Things like feminization, increased promiscuity, becoming more confident sexually, etc. The reason that the Catamite perk exists, for instance, is so that a player can skip the part where their character is reluctant to venture outside their heroic duties. The reason variable pronoun ID didn't exist to begin with is because of a conflict between the self-feminization and forced-feminization fetishes, that is, whether pronouns would be based on player selection or chosen by a character's level of feminization. And it wasn't a big deal since, after all, mostly the player character is referred to in the second person, "you", which is gender neutral, with most mentions of gender not being pronoun based, but gender ID based (the narrative assumes that Hiro is male, which is also not something that was ever planned to be set in stone! See: feminization).

I delayed making that choice until it became clear that I wasn't going to add that kind of forced feminization generically to the game, instead confining it to certain characters (like Alma), which meant that pronoun selection could be made by the player generically instead (which could, potentially, be affected by the forced feminization content, which the player would be able to moderate their interaction with). So it became a feature that could be voted on and, if selected, prioritized. At this point, even if it's voted on, it's going into the backlog for post-release.

So let me be clear about that again: the decision to add it to the feature survey was not made based on a public appeals campaign. It was something people wanted, and based on the way development was unfolding, we decided it was a feasible addition to make. We're well aware of the phenomenon of people getting something they want, and then asking for more, and we're used to managing it.

tl;dr "But I don't WANT that feature added" and its derivatives are not ever going to be convincing if someone else (particularly the devs!) does want it. People can say what things they do want and we'll accept, reject, and prioritize them accordingly, based on LOE, game design, and target audience factors.
 

balitz Method

Active Member
Jan 30, 2018
934
1,524
At some point, we'll be done with all of the high priority items for ToA, and any size feature request can be accommodated, because our budget and support timeline are not fixed. As long as people want those things, and we're willing to do them, they can be done. And we'll be making those decisions based on our own informed understanding of the LOE, not generic appeals to LOE that try to game theory their way to their preferred outcome (ie "don't add this feature I don't like because it's literally impossible to add it in a way that will 'please everyone'" or will "please no one", which assumes, of course, that we want to please absolutely everyone with every feature we implement).
I'm coming at it from the angle of "who -will- it please?".

Not being opposed to adding it, which sounds like your position, is much different from "we enthusiastically support and intend to implement it seamlessly". If it's just a parser implementation where it's hardly ever mentioned and none of the scenes are adjusted to account for it in any major way I can't see people who really wanted this being pleased with it. On the other hand diving deep into a near-completed game to add robust support for a completely different perspective in a majority of scenes would be a lot of work. The few people who really wanted this would be satisfied, but would all the support you have now continue if you're committed to working on something a fraction of paying players want?

I just don't see a way to do this and actually please anyone.
 
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balitz Method

Active Member
Jan 30, 2018
934
1,524
If anything I see that as the sort of feature to take into your next game project. As a ground-up consideration it's not that big a deal; it's in trying to alter a game that's largely skewed in a particular direction that it becomes a choice between bad implementation or major undertaking that may not be supported.
 

Majalis (ToA)

Member
Jul 31, 2019
231
876
I'm coming at it from the angle of "who -will- it please?".

Not being opposed to adding it, which sounds like your position, is much different from "we enthusiastically support and intend to implement it seamlessly". If it's just a parser implementation where it's hardly ever mentioned and none of the scenes are adjusted to account for it in any major way I can't see people who really wanted this being pleased with it. On the other hand diving deep into a near-completed game to add robust support for a completely different perspective in a majority of scenes would be a lot of work. The few people who really wanted this would be satisfied, but would all the support you have now continue if you're now only working on something a minority of players want?

I just don't see a way to do this and actually please anyone.
You cannot infer from a mere lack of opposition how enthusiastically or seamlessly someone will perform a task. "I don't mind sweeping the floors; it's not a big deal" does not imply that the person volunteering to sweep the floors is going to do a half-assed job of it.

The majority of scenes don't really talk about Hiro's gender in a complex way. Dynamically swapping out pronouns, certain gendered terms like boy, bitchboy, man, etc. would handle most of them. The remaining would be similar to the chastity content - scenes which assume you have a usable penis need to either be omitted or altered, which is a matter of rooting out those scenes (possibly on a rolling basis, like we did with the chastity content) and flagging them, and then creating alternatives. Usually it's a single line or a few lines together that talk about Hiro being male; there are few if any extended sequences that involve someone talking about how much of a Masculine/Male Gendered Person Hiro is, and the scenes in which someone is referred to as a girl or feminine or female in a playful way can remain largely unchanged.

Since this has been on my radar for a long time, I've actually kept note of most of the scenes in which gender play comes up, so it's not even much of an easter egg hunt.

Again, I'm not convinced by the number of people (which is entirely unknown to people who aren't us, and semi-unknown to us**) who want the feature. A minority of people (at least on paper) are going to enjoy almost everything we add - any content for characters or fetishes that poll below 50%, basically anything that is just simple QoL changes, non-erotic content like backgrounds, ambient sounds, music, etc. The voting, for instance, is done by plurality, not majority, and the calculus isn't just "how many people are going to care about this" vs. "what is the LOE", it also involves how much the people who care about it are going to care, and that, again, includes us, and for stuff that isn't decided by survey (e.g. what goes on the survey to begin with*), we alone decide.

*sometimes we let people nominate what will go into the surveys, but we still ultimately make the decision which nominees to select
**remember, this is on our feature survey, so we do actually have some idea, aside from just general chatter in our discord and the like, how many people would like this, and if it wins the survey, it will likely be a not-insignificant number of people!
 
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Twiton

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Jan 25, 2019
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Since this has been on my radar for a long time, I've actually kept note of most of the scenes in which gender play comes up, so it's not even much of an easter egg hunt.
Uh, speaking of Easter Egg hunts, would it be any bother to inquire about the Script Entry for the Horny/Toll Brigand Encounter having a Cant/No-Cant variation in the files? I was rather curious to know, assuming it wasn't already covered in the past, just how far back the Cant Mechanic was planned as a concept.

And, adding onto what you said about the Catamite Perk, is there going to be more instances in future encounters where Topping Outcomes can only be achieved with the Slut Condition? (Fire Elemental being the considered example)

With those questions aired and out of the way, hopefully the last I ever ask given how anxious it feels simply saying them, I'll just end my post by saying I'm massively glad to see you engaging more in the fan communities!
 
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KnowledgeAlfa

Member
Apr 5, 2018
378
469
I didn't say that at all. I said these arguments (that assume/disregard LOE and also assume what our priorities are by misreading or hyperextrapolating from things we have said or just completely guessing) aren't good.

At some point, we'll be done with all of the high priority items for ToA, and any size feature request can be accommodated, because our budget and support timeline are not fixed. As long as people want those things, and we're willing to do them, they can be done. And we'll be making those decisions based on our own informed understanding of the LOE, not generic appeals to LOE that try to game theory their way to their preferred outcome (ie "don't add this feature I don't like because it's literally impossible to add it in a way that will 'please everyone'" or will "please no one", which assumes, of course, that we want to please absolutely everyone with every feature we implement).

As more misinterpretation fodder: the original vision for the game includes variable character attitude and self-identification. Things like feminization, increased promiscuity, becoming more confident sexually, etc. The reason that the Catamite perk exists, for instance, is so that a player can skip the part where their character is reluctant to venture outside their heroic duties. The reason variable pronoun ID didn't exist to begin with is because of a conflict between the self-feminization and forced-feminization fetishes, that is, whether pronouns would be based on player selection or chosen by a character's level of feminization. And it wasn't a big deal since, after all, mostly the player character is referred to in the second person, "you", which is gender neutral, with most mentions of gender not being pronoun based, but gender ID based (the narrative assumes that Hiro is male, which is also not something that was ever planned to be set in stone! See: feminization).

I delayed making that choice until it became clear that I wasn't going to add that kind of forced feminization generically to the game, instead confining it to certain characters (like Alma), which meant that pronoun selection could be made by the player generically instead (which could, potentially, be affected by the forced feminization content, which the player would be able to moderate their interaction with). So it became a feature that could be voted on and, if selected, prioritized. At this point, even if it's voted on, it's going into the backlog for post-release.

So let me be clear about that again: the decision to add it to the feature survey was not made based on a public appeals campaign. It was something people wanted, and based on the way development was unfolding, we decided it was a feasible addition to make. We're well aware of the phenomenon of people getting something they want, and then asking for more, and we're used to managing it.

tl;dr "But I don't WANT that feature added" and its derivatives are not ever going to be convincing if someone else (particularly the devs!) does want it. People can say what things they do want and we'll accept, reject, and prioritize them accordingly, based on LOE, game design, and target audience factors.
This post just made me realize *why* Alma is the MVP.
 
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UndeadEve

Active Member
Aug 22, 2017
991
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So let me be clear about that again: the decision to add it to the feature survey was not made based on a public appeals campaign. It was something people wanted, and based on the way development was unfolding, we decided it was a feasible addition to make. We're well aware of the phenomenon of people getting something they want, and then asking for more, and we're used to managing it.

tl;dr "But I don't WANT that feature added" and its derivatives are not ever going to be convincing if someone else (particularly the devs!) does want it. People can say what things they do want and we'll accept, reject, and prioritize them accordingly, based on LOE, game design, and target audience factors.
I feel like i should say something.

What i said about the pronouns (without knowing how you will implement it) was and still is my opinion, with the little knowledge i had at the time (meaning your posts here and what i can see from the game itself) I could only see that it was unlike what you made previously and it stood out.

But what i also said, was that as long as it came from you and only from you, i was okay with it.
Because from what i gathered at the time, it felt like you were bending the knee and forfeiting your vision from the game.
And i stand corrected, you're more on the right track of your vision it seems.

It may or may not change my opinion on it (even though i like how you want to implement it, i find it good actually and more "accurate" to the world) but it was just that, my opinion and it shouldn't make you change anything.

tl;dr keep following your vision and make what you want to make, the opinions of other people (mine included) should not matter.
 

Twiton

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2019
1,858
2,497
This week's has come to a close!
Here's the results:
1622502230063.png
1622502311233.png
Thanks to everyone who voted and a big thanks to all of the 2k Members, that are now a part of the ToA Community!
1622502386210.png

 

Khuntai

Newbie
Jun 5, 2018
67
335
You cannot infer from a mere lack of opposition how enthusiastically or seamlessly someone will perform a task. "I don't mind sweeping the floors; it's not a big deal" does not imply that the person volunteering to sweep the floors is going to do a half-assed job of it.

The majority of scenes don't really talk about Hiro's gender in a complex way. Dynamically swapping out pronouns, certain gendered terms like boy, bitchboy, man, etc. would handle most of them. The remaining would be similar to the chastity content - scenes which assume you have a usable penis need to either be omitted or altered, which is a matter of rooting out those scenes (possibly on a rolling basis, like we did with the chastity content) and flagging them, and then creating alternatives. Usually it's a single line or a few lines together that talk about Hiro being male; there are few if any extended sequences that involve someone talking about how much of a Masculine/Male Gendered Person Hiro is, and the scenes in which someone is referred to as a girl or feminine or female in a playful way can remain largely unchanged.

Since this has been on my radar for a long time, I've actually kept note of most of the scenes in which gender play comes up, so it's not even much of an easter egg hunt.

Again, I'm not convinced by the number of people (which is entirely unknown to people who aren't us, and semi-unknown to us**) who want the feature. A minority of people (at least on paper) are going to enjoy almost everything we add - any content for characters or fetishes that poll below 50%, basically anything that is just simple QoL changes, non-erotic content like backgrounds, ambient sounds, music, etc. The voting, for instance, is done by plurality, not majority, and the calculus isn't just "how many people are going to care about this" vs. "what is the LOE", it also involves how much the people who care about it are going to care, and that, again, includes us, and for stuff that isn't decided by survey (e.g. what goes on the survey to begin with*), we alone decide.

*sometimes we let people nominate what will go into the surveys, but we still ultimately make the decision which nominees to select
**remember, this is on our feature survey, so we do actually have some idea, aside from just general chatter in our discord and the like, how many people would like this, and if it wins the survey, it will likely be a not-insignificant number of people!
Maybe I'm misreading but female Hiro wouldn't have a penis? Isn't that a lot of art to make/edit? Not to mention that I doubt you'd make 'Hira' a female and continue to only write anal scenes, so you'd also have to go back and add some vaginal. Then there's the ass pregnancy scenes as well, wouldn't some of those change for obvious reasons? And what about topping scenes? Male Hiro players would have an option to dom that female players wouldn't have, seems unfair. So you'd have to write some powerbottoming vagina based scenes I guess? And I'm sure there's other shit I can't remember. I don't even have a horse in this race really, it just sounds to me like you're underestimating the potential workload. I don't know if you've ever played corruption of champions or it's sequel, but from what I've been told going back and adding all these variables to scenes are a pain.
 
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Majalis (ToA)

Member
Jul 31, 2019
231
876
Maybe I'm misreading but female Hiro wouldn't have a penis? Isn't that a lot of art to make/edit? Not to mention that I doubt you'd make 'Hira' a female and continue to only write anal scenes, so you'd also have to go back and add some vaginal. Then there's the ass pregnancy scenes as well, wouldn't some of those change for obvious reasons? And what about topping scenes? Male Hiro players would have an option to dom that female players wouldn't have, seems unfair. So you'd have to write some powerbottoming vagina based scenes I guess? And I'm sure there's other shit I can't remember. I don't even have a horse in this race really, it just sounds to me like you're underestimating the potential workload. I don't know if you've ever played corruption of champions or it's sequel, but from what I've been told going back and adding all these variables to scenes are a pay.
We're not talking about Hiro's genitals, just pronouns and/or related gender identifiers. Topping scenes are already impossible if you're impotent or caged or otherwise have an unusable cock (e.g. cursed underwear). We don't plan to give Hiro a vagina.
 
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