The Cost of a Development Team and The Price of a Video Game

moskyx

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Jun 17, 2019
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What I don't understand from DaClown posts is the leap between "to be succesful you need a team" and "average dev's income is 50k$ a year". I'm the only one who thinks 'OK, sure, but how on hell can I reach that income level starting from scratch? How I'm gonna pay a whole team?' Because if I'm making 1k/month on Patreon (and that's some decent result for an amateur lewdgames dev) there's no way I could convince anyone to jump and work into my project. I can't hire a team and just wait for the magic to happen, because these people will have to eat and pay their bills while we're working on our beta release. And I don't have that money.

Are you suggesting to start a financing round or something? So we forget about Patreon and go to Kickstarter or whatever? Again, you're just assuming people want to make a living of this. If someone is serious about that, they take the common path for any business and start doing things professionally since day 1 (serious market research, financial forecasting, payment processors agreements and so on). Those are the people who pays for banners in this site, not the ones who post their games in the game's section threads. And I thought we were addresing the latter. Here we have people who make this games for fun as a side project. Just as simple as that. This is not an industry, there's no point in explaining how a proper industry works. In fact, your posts shows exactly how far we are from that
 

DaClown

Member
Sep 12, 2020
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What I don't understand from DaClown posts is the leap between "to be succesful you need a team" and "average dev's income is 50k$ a year". I'm the only one who thinks 'OK, sure, but how on hell can I reach that income level starting from scratch? How I'm gonna pay a whole team?' Because if I'm making 1k/month on Patreon (and that's some decent result for an amateur lewdgames dev) there's no way I could convince anyone to jump and work into my project. I can't hire a team and just wait for the magic to happen, because these people will have to eat and pay their bills while we're working on our beta release. And I don't have that money.

Are you suggesting to start a financing round or something? So we forget about Patreon and go to Kickstarter or whatever? Again, you're just assuming people want to make a living of this. If someone is serious about that, they take the common path for any business and start doing things professionally since day 1 (serious market research, financial forecasting, payment processors agreements and so on). Those are the people who pays for banners in this site, not the ones who post their games in the game's section threads. And I thought we were addresing the latter. Here we have people who make this games for fun as a side project. Just as simple as that. This is not an industry, there's no point in explaining how a proper industry works. In fact, your posts shows exactly how far we are from that
Good question. My point about the income statistics of sole projects vs teams is that solo projects generally mean less money. It is better to begin a project as a duo than a solo; it will generally improve the amount of income potential you can get individual and collectively.

Consider distinct scenarios: you get say 500$/month on Patreon and you remain solo vs you get the same 500$/month and you begin commissioning or contracting people.

Greedy or short sighted types will see these two alternatives and choose the former. I don't blame people taking the former who absolutely need that full 500$/month because it is their only or primary or a necessary source of income. Do what you need to survive. However, in the long run, the latter is more beneficial than the former. Whether we're talking about hobbyists or professionals or whatever divisions of labor you want to define.

If you're a programmer and you spend 50$ on an art commission rather than scratching out something yourself with no training or tools then you get a lot more for that 50$ than just a picture. Best case scenario, you create a lasting relationship with an artist and help them to get more secure and professional, and they end up bringing an audience to your project. Fenoxo and company are a really good model for all this.

There is a vice versa for artists.

There's a reason that every Hollywood movie has a credits section that is relatively speaking comprehensive. Unions and studios fought hard to make sure that everyone that participated in the creation of a movie was promoted in the materials for the movie.

If a project is viable and properly managed then it will accumulate revenue. At different stages of a project it may be prudent to be a solo project for that part of the project. But it will not generally be prudent for it to be solely and primarily a solo project. At the very least you will be contracting and commissioning people. The larger the scope of the project the more you should expect to bring other people onboard and give them creative control and operational power over the project. If your plans exclude that then you have likely failed from the start.

The ideal is that everyone on the team gets paid what they're worth. The reality for a cottage industry or hobbyist community like the adult game developers here is that everyone is likely to need a day job for most or all of the project. That's fine. But it is still better to have 1K$/month split between two devs than 1K$/month going to a solitary dev. It may not seem like it, but it is. If you have to bet on the lone genius vs a dedicated team of six people, it is generally best to bet on the dedicated team. They have more hours in the day to get things done. If y'all manage things right then you don't remain at 1K$/month indefinitely; generally speaking the team will grow the income faster and to a higher maximum than a solitary dev would in the same span.

People bring other people with them. When you get a person on your team or when you join someone's team, you are collecting your respective social circles and influence together. This means larger opportunities for word of mouth. More opportunities for talent finding. More networking. Success in business terms is not about what you know but who you know. A certain number of the Patreon projects where they have like 10K$/month is because they got a patron that shoves 1K$/month in their direction and has other people with similar disposable income. Rich people can and do pay 100K$ to be able to have their own waifu or .

My assumptions here are actually less about people becoming professional game developers; it is more about people not paying people to bankrupt them. I assume people don't want their adult game developing hobby to destroy them or the people they love or the project that I assume they do out of love.

I don't preclude the possibility that someone reading all this might actually want to do a Kickstarter campaign, run a Patreon, and seek investment from various sources like adult media producers or publishers. Those are options that should be considered for even moderate scale game development.

There's this thing in game development where if you go to a publisher with an idea then you'll generally be laughed out. In very rare cases with some documented planning and a moderately good presentation that they might take you seriously, but the deal they'll negotiate with you puts you at a severe disadvantage where you basically agree to sell your whole IP to the publisher and retain near to zero control over it. However, this changes quite dramatically the moment you have something playable. A playable alpha plus a game design document and a business plan puts you on considerably stronger negotiation terms and generally allows for a more favorable negotiation for royalties and advances. Having a practically finished game with a solid team, game design document, game development studio, and business plan allows you to largely retain control over the IP and get the lion's share of the royalties. This is one of the things that informs my views on what can be done or should be done depending on the objectives and values of the people involved with a hypothetical project.

If your dream is to work alone on your fetish playground for decades while working a more lucrative 18K$/year McJob then more power to you. This all isn't for you.

This is for helping to understand the financial frameworks and realities of game development in such a way that you can show a good faith effort for other people such that you get good faith investment from them whether they're team members or sponsors investors or patrons or people buying your finished product.
 

moskyx

Engaged Member
Jun 17, 2019
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Good question. My point about the income statistics of sole projects vs teams is that solo projects generally mean less money. It is better to begin a project as a duo than a solo; it will generally improve the amount of income potential you can get individual and collectively.

Consider distinct scenarios: you get say 500$/month on Patreon and you remain solo vs you get the same 500$/month and you begin commissioning or contracting people.

Greedy or short sighted types will see these two alternatives and choose the former. I don't blame people taking the former who absolutely need that full 500$/month because it is their only or primary or a necessary source of income. Do what you need to survive. However, in the long run, the latter is more beneficial than the former. Whether we're talking about hobbyists or professionals or whatever divisions of labor you want to define.

If you're a programmer and you spend 50$ on an art commission rather than scratching out something yourself with no training or tools then you get a lot more for that 50$ than just a picture. Best case scenario, you create a lasting relationship with an artist and help them to get more secure and professional, and they end up bringing an audience to your project. Fenoxo and company are a really good model for all this.

There is a vice versa for artists.

There's a reason that every Hollywood movie has a credits section that is relatively speaking comprehensive. Unions and studios fought hard to make sure that everyone that participated in the creation of a movie was promoted in the materials for the movie.

If a project is viable and properly managed then it will accumulate revenue. At different stages of a project it may be prudent to be a solo project for that part of the project. But it will not generally be prudent for it to be solely and primarily a solo project. At the very least you will be contracting and commissioning people. The larger the scope of the project the more you should expect to bring other people onboard and give them creative control and operational power over the project. If your plans exclude that then you have likely failed from the start.

The ideal is that everyone on the team gets paid what they're worth. The reality for a cottage industry or hobbyist community like the adult game developers here is that everyone is likely to need a day job for most or all of the project. That's fine. But it is still better to have 1K$/month split between two devs than 1K$/month going to a solitary dev. It may not seem like it, but it is. If you have to bet on the lone genius vs a dedicated team of six people, it is generally best to bet on the dedicated team. They have more hours in the day to get things done. If y'all manage things right then you don't remain at 1K$/month indefinitely; generally speaking the team will grow the income faster and to a higher maximum than a solitary dev would in the same span.

People bring other people with them. When you get a person on your team or when you join someone's team, you are collecting your respective social circles and influence together. This means larger opportunities for word of mouth. More opportunities for talent finding. More networking. Success in business terms is not about what you know but who you know. A certain number of the Patreon projects where they have like 10K$/month is because they got a patron that shoves 1K$/month in their direction and has other people with similar disposable income. Rich people can and do pay 100K$ to be able to have their own waifu or .

My assumptions here are actually less about people becoming professional game developers; it is more about people not paying people to bankrupt them. I assume people don't want their adult game developing hobby to destroy them or the people they love or the project that I assume they do out of love.

I don't preclude the possibility that someone reading all this might actually want to do a Kickstarter campaign, run a Patreon, and seek investment from various sources like adult media producers or publishers. Those are options that should be considered for even moderate scale game development.

There's this thing in game development where if you go to a publisher with an idea then you'll generally be laughed out. In very rare cases with some documented planning and a moderately good presentation that they might take you seriously, but the deal they'll negotiate with you puts you at a severe disadvantage where you basically agree to sell your whole IP to the publisher and retain near to zero control over it. However, this changes quite dramatically the moment you have something playable. A playable alpha plus a game design document and a business plan puts you on considerably stronger negotiation terms and generally allows for a more favorable negotiation for royalties and advances. Having a practically finished game with a solid team, game design document, game development studio, and business plan allows you to largely retain control over the IP and get the lion's share of the royalties. This is one of the things that informs my views on what can be done or should be done depending on the objectives and values of the people involved with a hypothetical project.

If your dream is to work alone on your fetish playground for decades while working a more lucrative 18K$/year McJob then more power to you. This all isn't for you.

This is for helping to understand the financial frameworks and realities of game development in such a way that you can show a good faith effort for other people such that you get good faith investment from them whether they're team members or sponsors investors or patrons or people buying your finished product.
Then the whole Patreon system kind of sets a perverse incentive, don't you think? You can open an account, post a barebone project and start earning some bucks. Most people won't ever get to a point where they could even start to think about expanding the team, and the money they receive, just a mere tip, would be perceived as a nice bonus for spending their leisure time doing something they like. These people might even think that there's no need to actually finish their project because an eternally in development one could allow them to keep that modest revenue stream (of course, they won't be willing to share their monthly 500$ with anyone else). So in the end we have myriads of tiny projects that, combined, are actually detracting a huge amount of money from the player's base pockets. A money that could have been available for bigger and more professional projects, those that actually increase the added value of their members and let them earn a dignified income from their work.

That said, a bigger and more professional project could attract some of that money as players would change their pledges, leaving those solo devs, so maybe is just a matter of starting the development of your game with a proper business-mind and some kind of strategy. Which, again, goes against what the vast majority of people do, like to do or are willing to do. They have a personal idea and some skills but just a few of them are willing to 'lose' the creative control of their projects. Even some of the most succesful devs around here are just afraid of the complications of teamworking or just say they're doing it for fun and having to coordinate a project would kill that fun and burn them out. And, since they can earn several thousands per month doing what they're currently doing, it's hard to say they are doing something wrong. Even though, in a holystic approach, they are hurting what we understand as 'industry' in a traditional sense of the word (note that this could be said to any kind of colaborative economy model)
 
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Joshua Tree

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That said, a bigger and more professional project could attract some of that money as players would change their pledges, leaving those solo devs, so maybe is just a matter of starting the development of your game with a proper business-mind and some kind of strategy. Which, again, goes against what the vast majority of people do, like to do or are willing to do. They have a personal idea and some skills but just a few of them are willing to 'lose' the creative control of their projects. Even some of the most succesful devs around here are just afraid of the complications of teamworking or just say they're doing it for fun and having to coordinate a project would kill that fun and burn them out. And, since they can earn several thousands per month doing what they're currently doing, it's hard to say they are doing something wrong. Even though, in a holystic approach, they are hurting what we understand as 'industry' in a traditional sense of the word (note that this could be said to any kind of colaborative economy model)
Suppose "Subverse" is such a project, but that crowd funded on kickstarter. And I guess when it released on steam (and whatever else platform), it will have an upfront cost, and it seems like it will be loaded with dlc content (straws into your wallet), to follow up...

It show get funded on kickstarter for startup isn't impossible, as the interest for adult games is there. But you need the people willing to take the chance to start such projects and invest their time into it too. If you already got a good day job and making adult games as a hobby and pocket some extra on Patreon from it. It's a long stretch towards go full time game dev and climb out on that limb, with all the risks it entail as well.
 

moskyx

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Jun 17, 2019
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Suppose "Subverse" is such a project, but that crowd funded on kickstarter. And I guess when it released on steam (and whatever else platform), it will have an upfront cost, and it seems like it will be loaded with dlc content (straws into your wallet), to follow up...

It show get funded on kickstarter for startup isn't impossible, as the interest for adult games is there. But you need the people willing to take the chance to start such projects and invest their time into it too. If you already got a good day job and making adult games as a hobby and pocket some extra on Patreon from it. It's a long stretch towards go full time game dev and climb out on that limb, with all the risks it entail as well.
Yeah, that's my point. While there are ways to make a pro career in lewd games, those who set up a Patreon account are not seeking that. Even if they eventually achieve to make a living, their goal was not to create a company-like team to develop their game, but just earn some side bucks and *maybe* make enough money to survive while working full-time but still solo on their own personal project. There's no greater vision, just 'lonely' guys with regular jobs taking advantage of the funding chance that Patreon gives. Take DPC, he's surely earning a solid money between Patreon pledges and Steam sales yet he's not interested at all in creating a proper company (nor even a team) even though he could benefit from other professionals' work and maybe even boost their income according to the theorethical pattern stated by DaClown. He just doesn't need that to keep doing what he's doing so greatly so far
 
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megaplayboy10k

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In terms of facilitating quantity, I mean, if you look at the "latest updates" tab, there are over 6000 games "published" here. Steam published 9000 new games on its site in a recent year. The 6000 we have here are compiled over about a 5 year span going back to 2016, so about 1200 a year. Major game consoles see about 2-300 releases per year. At the other end google's play store sees a seemingly endless array of phone games, but the quality of those is highly variable.
I don't think there's any lack of adult games being published, though some of course are abandoned or never finished.
There's no adult game equivalent to GTA V or Call of Duty simply because, at this point, the market doesn't justify some company spending hundreds of millions of dollars to produce such a product.
Unless Pornhub or a AAA developer wade into the market, I suspect we won't see a mass market adult game any time soon. We'll see companies like Rockstar dabble with adult elements in their mainstream titles but no games where sexually explicit content is the primary attraction.
 

Joshua Tree

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In terms of facilitating quantity, I mean, if you look at the "latest updates" tab, there are over 6000 games "published" here. Steam published 9000 new games on its site in a recent year. The 6000 we have here are compiled over about a 5 year span going back to 2016, so about 1200 a year. Major game consoles see about 2-300 releases per year. At the other end google's play store sees a seemingly endless array of phone games, but the quality of those is highly variable.
I don't think there's any lack of adult games being published, though some of course are abandoned or never finished.
There's no adult game equivalent to GTA V or Call of Duty simply because, at this point, the market doesn't justify some company spending hundreds of millions of dollars to produce such a product.
Unless Pornhub or a AAA developer wade into the market, I suspect we won't see a mass market adult game any time soon. We'll see companies like Rockstar dabble with adult elements in their mainstream titles but no games where sexually explicit content is the primary attraction.
You have companies such as CDPROJEKT RED that play with adult content at some degree, but that is more incorporate it into a "mature" game setting. But imagine the outcry if like EA, Ubisoft or something similar announced, "we going to make an adult (porn) game.".... their stocks would tank so fast it's not even funny. There is money to be made making such games, but the stigma it carries is a burden none known game studios want to take on. Just look at the outcry and havoc the "hot coffee" thing to GTA Sand Adreas did make. In the past we seen like BioWare did do some partial nudity/romance in such as Dragons Age and Mass Effect, but that nothing more than teasers.

The "adult" (movie) industry been doing some half arsed adult games but mostly along the line of the FMV kind, which would just double as a movie release for them anyways. The agenda been more like "slap some crap together and make a quick buck" of fap hungry people, rather than make something good.
 
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DaClown

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I don't think there's any lack of adult games being published, though some of course are abandoned or never finished.
This is a natural consequence of trials. Most of them will be failures, and we should be okay with that. Nothing wrong with trying something and failing or giving up. Better to give up on a bad idea or a bad implementation early on rather than over invest in a mistake.

There's no adult game equivalent to GTA V or Call of Duty simply because, at this point, the market doesn't justify some company spending hundreds of millions of dollars to produce such a product.
Unless Pornhub or a AAA developer wade into the market, I suspect we won't see a mass market adult game any time soon. We'll see companies like Rockstar dabble with adult elements in their mainstream titles but no games where sexually explicit content is the primary attraction.
It's actually more straight forward than that. People talk about companies in this context, but you have to remember that the vast majority of wealth is held by a strict minority of the people on the planet. It isn't the corporate decisions that prevent a AAA game development project from reaching completion. It is the lack of the ownership or capitalist class investing in such projects AND the abundance of the rich spending money and corporate resources on preventing such things from coming to fruition.

A few wealthy people throwing their weight behind a financial network for the development of adult content would change that overnight. And there are markets now for the resulting product and legal means for profit shares to be collected. Besides Steam becoming a place to market adult content, there are a variety of startups every year that are attempting to find workable business models for adult media development and the supporting consumer base. being one such example which touts itself as an adult alternative to Twitch.

I don't think that we'll see a AAA adult sex game come from an existing game development studio; it is important that the dev studio does not have ties to children's products. Too many of them are invested into the old models and have been burned by the conditions of the markets of years ago. An AAA adult sex game will be published when a dedicated group of people from various economic conditions including sex workers, artists, and investors put together a plan, a vision, and articles of incorporation for a dedicated adult game development studio based on new models and the current and probable future market conditions. I am pretty well convinced that Fenoxo and co are approaching the conditions necessary.

By my estimation, we're somewhere around the 1990s era of game development for the current state of the global adult game development market. I suspect a big change will come when developers do more marketing to women and queer people.
But imagine the outcry if like EA, Ubisoft or something similar announced, "we going to make an adult (porn) game.".... their stocks would tank so fast it's not even funny.
This is precisely the problem. Corporations are real slow and resistant to change. They chase the "safe unlimited profit" that doesn't exist; you get safety or you get maximum profit but not both; it requires risk taking which is something suited for startups and new organizations rather than the established bunch. Again, the problem is that they're heavily invested into the old model; the old model necessitates that games are children's toys and regulated as children's products; there was similar issues with comics, and it is a favored political, rhetorical, and legal method of attack by conservatives to suppress the publication of porn.

The "adult" (movie) industry been doing some half arsed adult games but mostly along the line of the FMV kind, which would just double as a movie release for them anyways. The agenda been more like "slap some crap together and make a quick buck" of fap hungry people, rather than make something good.
You mean San Fernando Valley. The knock off Hollywood of conservatives and right-wing libertarians that try to use underground methods of controlling the adult content consumption by shaping it around cishet idealized porn for frat bros.
 
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Joshua Tree

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You mean San Fernando Valley. The knock off Hollywood of conservatives and right-wing libertarians that try to use underground methods of controlling the adult content consumption by shaping it around cishet idealized porn for frat bros.
Actually, today its the payment processors and their check lists that shape the adult/porn industry. Doesn't really matter if someone able to pump out content if they can't get paid for it. Sending cash/checks in the mail is a terrible way of business transactions these days...
 
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DaClown

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Actually, today its the payment processors and their check lists that shape the adult/porn industry. Doesn't really matter if someone able to pump out content if they can't get paid for it. Sending cash/checks in the mail is a terrible way of business transactions these days...
Are you familiar with the or ? Most adult movie content produced in the world at the level of corporate studios is or at least was produced in . Are you familiar with the Southern California take over by the rightwing libertarians substantially represented by Thiel? A bunch of the payment processors that you're talking about and the decline of San Fernando's apparent prominence in the international porn business comes down to a bunch of underground porn nerd bros working for Thiel or his conservative allies like the .

As I have mentioned somewhere else, Paypal became what it is by exploiting sex workers getting paid. Once a certain critical mass was met, Paypal started seizing the assets of various people including in particular the sex workers and porn websites. It is as permissive as it is because of its legacy in the sex industry.

The policies of Patreon reflect the restrictions placed on them by Paypal; those restrictions were put in place by people like Thiel and his lackeys. See also SESTA/FOSTA. San Fernando Valley was designated by conservatives as a compromise place for the production of porn in the US. Similar to how Las Vegas and Northern Nevada are designated for casinos and pseudo-legalized brothels. All of which have been heavily regulated by GOP/conservative legal and political standards through conserted efforts and agencies. Agencies that include the CIA, FBI, and ICE. In the same way that Hollywood is a propaganda production center for the US and the DOD, San Fernando Valley was a pornographic propaganda production center for the US.

This whole landscape is changing though because there is an international porn revolution and revolt going on, and the old order which capitalized on the blanket restriction and prohibition of the production of porn in virtually all media is collapsing. There are now increasing international alternatives to the old media and old media development organizations.

A number of countries have been either decriminalizing or legalizing sex work. New Zealand being a notable example. This produces legal places for the exchange of finances for the expressed purpose of the legal production of sex works. Which allows the possibility of the legal development of alternative payment processors to the likes of Paypal and older creditors and banks.
 
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215303j

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Interesting thread!

But some important things are not yet mentioned:

1) A significant percentage of adult devs have a well-paid day job, and they work on their game in the evening instead of laying on the sofa watching some crap on TV. Basically any money they gain from the project is some nice additional pocket money, which they don't really need.

2) A significant part of the world would be more than happy to work for a salary of $300-500 per week (edit: per month). This completely changes the cost structure of a project.

And, on a more generic level:

3) Social security varies a lot around the globe. In some countries (like the US) no work = no food but in other countries (like Europe) no work = a lot of free time. Yes, I know I'm generalising. But a young, single West European can live off like E1000 unemployment benefits per month, and the only problem would be keeping the Patreon earnings out of sight of the tax authorities.
 
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Joshua Tree

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Interesting thread!

But some important things are not yet mentioned:

1) A significant percentage of adult devs have a well-paid day job, and they work on their game in the evening instead of laying on the sofa watching some crap on TV. Basically any money they gain from the project is some nice additional pocket money, which they don't really need.

2) A significant part of the world would be more than happy to work for a salary of $300-500 per week. This completely changes the cost structure of a project.

And, on a more generic level:

3) Social security varies a lot around the globe. In some countries (like the US) no work = no food but in other countries (like Europe) no work = a lot of free time. Yes, I know I'm generalising. But a young, single West European can live off like E1000 unemployment benefits per month, and the only problem would be keeping the Patreon earnings out of sight of the tax authorities.
Money they don't need? Such income could help a long way help pay on a house mortgage, car loan. Family vacation, whatever. It's a bit like saying as long as you have enough to cover your existence, you don't need anymore?

Unemployment benefits varies a lot throughout Europe. So does cost of living. Just because you are young doesn't mean you wont need roof over your head and whatever bills come with that. Not like everyone can camp in their folks basement whatever.

What make you think you can keep your patreon earnings out of sight from tax authorities? Afaik Patreon does disclose that information, but you are responsible yourself to get the tax paid.
 

DaClown

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Sep 12, 2020
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Interesting thread!

But some important things are not yet mentioned:

1) A significant percentage of adult devs have a well-paid day job, and they work on their game in the evening instead of laying on the sofa watching some crap on TV. Basically any money they gain from the project is some nice additional pocket money, which they don't really need.

2) A significant part of the world would be more than happy to work for a salary of $300-500 per week. This completely changes the cost structure of a project.

And, on a more generic level:

3) Social security varies a lot around the globe. In some countries (like the US) no work = no food but in other countries (like Europe) no work = a lot of free time. Yes, I know I'm generalising. But a young, single West European can live off like E1000 unemployment benefits per month, and the only problem would be keeping the Patreon earnings out of sight of the tax authorities.
This profile of an adult game dev immediately places the majority of such people in your implicit view into middle or upper class internationally and in a variety of national economies including the US.

Even if that is the case, I am not interested in catering to the needs or wants of bougie professionals or capitalists. My priority in this thread is to prevent talented but impoverished people from being exploited with sub-market wages and to discourage people from seeking sub-optimal game development practices like solo game dev. You got a 100K$/month income because you're a Google Engineer or because your parents were oil tycoons and you don't care if you "only" get 10K$/month working in your personal fantasy land? Good for you; now go bother someone else cause this thread ain't for you.

Argument #2 is worth elaborating. If a team is taking in exactly their costs of living and the project is their only source of income or intended to be their only or primary source of income then the team is not raising enough funds for game development; the project will cost more than the cost of living for each team member. 300$/week is still 1200$/month per team member and is a substandard wage in the international software and media industries. 500$/week is still 2000$/month per team member and is a substandard wage in the international software and media industries. You'd be better off joining a well managed indie venture. The 3800$/month that I state in the OP includes both enough income for the dev to live on and enough income to invest in the development project over a 5 to 10 year time frame.

Argument #3 is worth consideration. You can emphasize the differences between the US and the EU; however, it is more useful to emphasize the differences between the North Atlantic economies and economies like India, China, and the many South Asian countries. 15$/hr for someone in the US or the EU is locally a substandard wage, but 15$/hr for someone in India is a substantial income. Paying 50K$/year to people in India has a lot more opportunity for growth than paying someone 50K$/year in Germany; the only major hinderance to that is the .

From an investment perspective, it is better to build your team from people in poorer nations or nations with lower wages AND pay them standard or near standard wages for the North Atlantic nations. There's a lot more motivation and communal resources available in those setups and influxes of wealth can go a lot farther.
 

Joshua Tree

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This profile of an adult game dev immediately places the majority of such people in your implicit view into middle or upper class internationally and in a variety of national economies including the US.

Even if that is the case, I am not interested in catering to the needs or wants of bougie professionals or capitalists. My priority in this thread is to prevent talented but impoverished people from being exploited with sub-market wages and to discourage people from seeking sub-optimal game development practices like solo game dev. You got a 100K$/month income because you're a Google Engineer or because your parents were oil tycoons and you don't care if you "only" get 10K$/month working in your personal fantasy land? Good for you; now go bother someone else cause this thread ain't for you.
Say what? You not really preaching in the right place at all you are? Majority of the creators on this site have it as a hobby next to their day job, school (whatever). People that really want to go full time into game development and make it their full time gig, would be most likely to pursue openings in already established studios. Not start build their own studio from scratch without a dime to their name.

Why should you rag on someone who pull "whatever" a month from their hobby? Some might have got it to a level where they have a okay income from it and could leave a crappy job behind. Most people just want to stay within their own comfort zone and do their own thing, and none really the right to question that as its their life and decision..

If you want to go big, go big. Nothing keep you from create a game studio and start hire talent on this site and start dish out the greenbacks you talk about can be made. Lead by example. At least not belittle the people that make this site what it is...
 

DaClown

Member
Sep 12, 2020
172
275
Majority of the creators on this site have it as a hobby next to their day job, school
This is an unquanitified and unqualified claim and to my perspective is irrelevant because the majority of games indexed and effecting devs is not limited to the ones who participate on this site. This thread is not about just the people supporting this site or participating in it, and the people I am speaking to are not limited to this domain and do not have their interests limited to this domain or to the interests of the vocal minority.

People that really want to go full time into game development and make it their full time gig, would be most likely to pursue openings in already established studios.
This is a gross misunderstanding of the premises of the arguments that have been made here. I assume that people interested in the very ardous work of game development are not motivated to remain in whatever day job they may have. Again, if you're happy at your position or you're making 100K$/year as a lawyer, doctor, engineer, or corporate officer then good for you; this thread has little to offer you.

Most of the projects I've seen started in adult game development which are not started or run by some person with excessive leisure time and wealth are forms of survival sex work. A lot of the games abandoned are the result of people engaging in survival sex work that got insufficient support and moved on to other more viable alternatives like working at McDonalds or going to school to become a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or other well paid professional or just straight up died cause they couldn't afford their insulin/home/visa/legal-expenses/etc.

The majority of sex work done is survival sex work.

If you want to go big, go big.
"Sure maybe some aspire to make it big" In this thread, I am not talking at all about making it big. I am talking about making it average. Being smack dab in the middle of the pack. Not under performing. Not over performing. Just being average. Average is 50K$/year. Whether you're making a candy crush clone, Crush Crush, or Corruption of Champions II.
Getting 50K$/year developing a game even an adult game is not big. It is average. All throughout, I have been talking about small 5 person teams as the primary assumed game development model; what amounts to standard indie development and matches some of the most successful adult game development groups in current and historical practice.

Something that is clearly misunderstood here either out of shear miscommunications or out of malicious misunderstanding is that 50K$/year is the idealized objective assumed. I assume that people want to be paid enough to work on the game and live independent of other social circumstances. I assume individuals will adjust this down if they can afford to shell out more of the money the patrons throw at them to complete the project. Most people are going to fall somewhere under or somewhere over 50K$/year within a few standard deviations. I assume that most people are going to want to fall near or above the standard wages for the industry rather than drag the wages of the industry down and get paid less or have to pay to work. I consider these assumptions reasonable.
 

Joshua Tree

Conversation Conqueror
Jul 10, 2017
6,158
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DaClown What people do, and what you want to see them do is completely different things. As I said, "lead by example" start a game studio and start hire talent here then if it is that easy... I'm sure you able to secure the funding for wages and whatever to make it big...
 
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Luderos

Member
Game Developer
Jul 20, 2020
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This is a gross misunderstanding of the premises of the arguments that have been made here.
It sounds like the forest is getting lost for the trees in this thread. If I'm reading it right, you're basically saying that devs would be more successful if they worked in small teams instead of solo and that players should be willing to pay a reasonable amount for their games (at least, if they want high-quality games to play).

I mostly agree with both of those points, although I think the first one is more complicated than it sounds at first. If I want to make a game solo, it's on me. Either I do or I don't. If I want to put a team together instead, then I'm relying on others, which is a very differnt situation. It changes the challenge from the hard skills of development to the soft skills of recruitment and management. While I think almost everyone here would love to be able to make a nice living developing their own games, I bet that only a fraction of those would actually love to make a living managing and recruiting.

Price is a bit of a different discussion that probably warrants its own thread, though it's always a little odd to see people comparing the price of adult games to AAA games. The only reason that people can buy a Skyrim for $60 is that they can sell tens of millions of copies of it, so for a given level of quality, an adult game would need to cost FAR, FAR more given the limited market size. Realistically, that's not going to happen, so we get games that are much smaller and lower quality. I don't think that's necessarily a problem, at least until people start comparing them to AAA games to decide how much is fair to pay. Of course, that's what people do though, so we'll basically never get adult games that are better than what a very small team can make. It would be nice if it went the other way, but the AAA pron movie thing didn't work out that well either. Democratized content means that lots and lots of stuff gets made, albeit very cheaply... great for niches that wouldn't otherwise get served, less great overall content quality.
 

DaClown

Member
Sep 12, 2020
172
275
players should be willing to pay a reasonable amount for their games (at least, if they want high-quality games to play).
Actually, I am not even arguing for high-quality games to play. Again, this isn't at all about "going big" or "making high quality games". This is about averages. We're not talking about making the adult equivalent of Fez or Stardew Valley.

I'm just saying that if you want a successful game development in the sense that there is something of average quality that is playable such that even a modest 1000 to 10000 people will shell out modest amounts of cash to play it or support it then 90% of the successful game developments are team developed games where the developers are paid around 50K$/year.

Games developments which are solo dev projects where the dev is getting less than 50K$/year to invest on the game development and to live on fail something like 80% to 90%+ of the time. No normative statement here. No value judgement about morals, ethics, or what should or shouldn't be the case. Just hard statistical fact. Solo game dev company that starts up in 2020 with no business plan, no investors, no game design document, and basically nothing but a hope and dream of someone with a modicum of programming and artistic will will be closed by 2021. 98%+ of such ventures will fail within 5 years.

Most game studios last no longer than 4 years and typically produce no more than one modestly successful game if any at all. That's team games with investors for non-adult game development.

If all you care about is playing the finished game or the game being in a playable state and generally improving even if not ever being completed, yeah. You want the devs paid 50K$/year minimum and you don't want to risk investing in dedicated solo dev projects as a general rule.

If all you care about is finishing the game or keeping the game development going to improve and polish the design as much as possible then you're aiming for a 50K$/year minimum for yourself and others, and you really really want to be putting the dream team together as you go.

although I think the first one is more complicated than it sounds at first.
There is no such thing as "simple game development". First and primary misconception. Game development is a team effort in general. Even the successful solo devs have entire forums, blogs, and communities crowdsourcing things for them.

If I want to make a game solo, it's on me.
Yup, and as I stipulated several times in this thread then you are assuming the risks, and this thread is not for you.

It changes the challenge from the hard skills of development to the soft skills of recruitment and management.
That right there is the secrete of game development. It is primarily about soft skills. The technical stuff sorts itself out and relatively speaking the easy part. Once you know what to build, it is generally a process that can be automated through constraint solving; there are AI game devs ; this is to say that formal game design is something that can be done almost entirely without thought. Almost all of game design is informal design which involves marshaling people in volatile conditions over the course of years.

While I think almost everyone here would love to be able to make a nice living developing their own games, I bet that only a fraction of those would actually love to make a living managing and recruiting.
People love to eat the bread. Few like to make the bread. Fewer still want to work the fields, take care of the animals, and build the kitchen sink. Luckily, only a small percentage of people need to do any of the steps for us all to have a lot of good breads to choose from.

Price is a bit of a different discussion that probably warrants its own thread, though it's always a little odd to see people comparing the price of adult games to AAA games.
I'll note that I explicitly link to examples of adult games which are not triple AAA projects. They sell for upwards of 10$ and the revenues that can be roughly calculated for them show that they pay about 50K$/year for a 5 person team. There's a reason that indie games devs average 50K$/year, and it has to do with the prices that indie games can be sold at in obscure word of mouth markets while making a marginal profit or at least breaking even with development costs.

The only reason that people can buy a Skyrim for $60 is that they can sell tens of millions of copies of it, so for a given level of quality, an adult game would need to cost FAR, FAR more given the limited market size. Realistically, that's not going to happen, so we get games that are much smaller and lower quality. I don't think that's necessarily a problem, at least until people start comparing them to AAA games to decide how much is fair to pay. Of course, that's what people do though, so we'll basically never get adult games that are better than what a very small team can make.
For a game to be able to hit a 60$ price point all that needs to go on is there needs to be a reliable and consistent market of about 100,000 people who will buy the game at that price point. That would be roughly speaking 6,000,000$ in revenue; we'd be talking about 120 people getting paid 50K$/year or 60 people getting paid closer to game development industrial average. If the game is made in 3 years that would be 2 million $ in revenue each year for the total project; if the game is made in 6 years it's a million dollar a year project; if the game is made in 12 years its a 500,000$/year project. Steam potentially opens up the market for an audience of that size; the problem is that the general quality of productions coming from the adult game development "industry" as it is doesn't generally justify a 60$ price tag; this is just a matter of historical accident as far as I am concerned and not something essential to the quality of productions or development teams that can exist currently.

Part of why I am here writing extensively on these topics is because I fully believe we are only a few years away from seeing the first A tier adult game. And maybe 5 years from seeing the first AAA international adult game development publication.
 

Cherry Bomb

Newbie
Mar 19, 2018
56
521
You sound a lot more like you're chastising people for piracy rather than trying to create a level of understanding here. Its important to remember piracy doesn't necessarily come from hatred or "muh don't wanna pay" but rather the market itself tends to...not be very good.

As you go on you get more into pushing for that 60 dollar price point, which many AAA games go for, you neglect to mention the quality of games being produced. While I'd argue many AAA games don't deserve that price point themselves, theres many H-Games which barely have an hour of content even after being completed. They're still getting their footing AS GAMES and aren't ready to start trying to establish their market. Some devs have hit it out of the park with groups like Libra Heart which I will regularly shill for and I think upstarts like DandyBoyAdventures will be able to change how people see how an H-Game should be set up but as is, most of them are glorified VNs that cost an arm and a leg.

Before you say anything, I've paid for most adult games I've played in some form or fashion but I can also tell you very few of those purchases were worth it.

PS: Consider condensing what you're saying. If you notice theres like 2 people actually engaging with this thread,the size of what you're saying would contribute to that. Consider using bullet points or making clear sections. Right now you're just writing massive walls of text and a good majority of those walls repeat the same information over and over again.
 

DaClown

Member
Sep 12, 2020
172
275
As you go on you get more into pushing for that 60 dollar price point
I don't actually push for any particular price point anywhere in the thread. I am only interested here in outlining the broad notions of how costs and pricing is determined. Admittedly, the majority interest so far has been on the costs.

A game doesn't have to be AAA for it to be priced at 60$ on market. A game can be AAA and free to play depending on the marketing and business model of the game.

It is unlikely that a low quality adult game by a solo dev will actually sell enough copies at 60$ for the costs payed by the dev to be recouped or for the revenue to be better than 10K$/year over the interval of time the game was in development. Unfortunately, in game development history there have been cases where garbage games did in fact sell to thousands or millions of people for 60$ and it adversely impacted the whole game industry due to the damage it did to the trust people.

My preference personally is for games which are free to play but which reward the entire community for paying into a common pot for development and maintenance of the game. Idling to Rule the Gods recently added a mechanic where the Patreon support gives in game buffs to everyone playing the game which I think is really cool.

There's a lot of reasons to market a game at 1$ or 10$ dollars instead of at 60$ or higher. If your game has a real market for selling at 1$ to 10 million people and takes you 1 year to develop with a team of 5 people then that comes out to be a gross revenue of 2 million$ per dev. Maybe you can sell higher and make even more money, but there's a lot to be said of making modest profits rather than being too greedy and losing money or the trust of your would be fans or supporters.

many H-Games which barely have an hour of content even after being completed
Portal is still among the very best games in the world. It is a glorified Half-Life 2 mod with maybe 2 hours of game play put together by an indie of 10 people.

The length of a game is not an accurate measure of the worth or value of a game. It is true that a lot of AAA games don't need a 60$ price tag; most of them have that price tag only because the officers of the publisher believe that they can maximize their profit by having that price tag.

The price of a thing is a question of the excess value that you want to get or can get for a thing. Greedy capitalists go for maximum markup, so pharmaceutical executives charge thousands of dollars for insulin because the literal alternative to not buying their stuff is death. Generally when a dev or publisher tries to max markup it costs them in social support and in future opportunities, and this is why often development studios and publishers don't last more than 4 years.

In general, the value of an adult game is higher than nothing or going bankrupt or living homeless on the street.
 
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