The Cost of a Development Team and The Price of a Video Game

[moskyx]

Honestly, I still don't get what's exactly the point of all this thread. I dare DaClown to answer those questions in one line each.

1.- What would be your first steps (just some bullet points) if you wanted to create a successful lewd game?

2.- Starting from zero to none financial resources or just a regular daily job, how would you get the money to survive and pay a proper compensation to your teammates from day 1 on (I'm assuming you would go for creating a team somewhere in question 1) while developing your game project?

 

[fidless]

Good question. My point about the income statistics of sole projects vs teams is that solo projects generally mean less money. It is better to begin a project as a duo than a solo;

You underestimate how hard it is to find someone who shares the same passion for the game you're making.

 

[Joshua Tree]

You underestimate how hard it is to find someone who shares the same passion for the game you're making.

Well, when you employ someone, they don't need to share your passion, just have the skills you need to work on your game. As with life else. When I hire someone I don't care about their passion. I just care if they can do the work I hired them to do or not.

The level of funding needed to make happen what he want to see just isn't there for the average game creator that have patreon as source of income. Why I said if it is that easy, he should just create a studio and start hire talent on this site.

 

[fidless]

Well, when you employ someone, they don't need to share your passion, just have the skills you need to work on your game. As with life else. When I hire someone I don't care about their passion. I just care if they can do the work I hired them to do or not.

The level of funding needed to make happen what he want to see just isn't there for the average game creator that have patreon as source of income. Why I said if it is that easy, he should just create a studio and start hire talent on this site.

I find it's very hard to find anyone motivated enough even if you pay them for the work they do. At least for creative work.
Hiring a programmer is probably x10 easier than a writer or artist. As they find little motivation working on other's "vision" and rather create something of their own. Money won't save if there's no motivation/passion.

 

[Joshua Tree]

I find it's very hard to find anyone motivated enough even if you pay them for the work they do. At least for creative work.
Hiring a programmer is probably x10 easier than a writer or artist. As they find little motivation working on other's "vision" and rather create something of their own. Money won't save if there's no motivation/passion.

It's not necessary passion for the game, but passion for your work and the project you working on, and with the team you working with. Example, you some 3d artist, got employed at Treyarch, working on the next Call of Duty, (whatever). Did you apply for the job because you needed a job, or because you had such a outmost passion for yet another Call of Duty game?

Of course it help if you get hired on a project you have great passion for, but end of the day you seek work because you got bills and need food on the table.

As for game writers..... It's all about being creative imho, and be able to adapt and use that creativity ...

 

[recreation]

It's kinda funny how no one even considers that people outside of the us or, let's say, first world countries usually get a lot less payment.
Earning 30k USD per year means a lot of money in many countries, and let's face it, there are by far more countries in the world with a lower income than there are with a higher income. You can check it here if you want:

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I also still fail to see how the topic has anything to do with any of the developers here, it's a completely different metire, you can't compare "real" game developers, or even indi game devs with a porn game developer.

 

[Joshua Tree]

It's kinda funny how no one even considers that people outside of the us or, let's say, first world countries usually get a lot less payment.
Earning 30k USD per year means a lot of money in many countries, and let's face it, there are by far more countries in the world with a lower income than there are with a higher income. You can check it here if you want:

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I also still fail to see how the topic has anything to do with any of the developers here, it's a completely different metire, you can't compare "real" game developers, or even indi game devs with a porn game developer.

It's more like you can't really compare "adult" game studios such as Illusion, with the creators you find on this site. If you start browse by tags on Steam, you will find such as "Nudity" got 2046 entries. "Sexual content" a bit less, but you can't really read all as "porn", because you find any games that have traces of it in the listings as well, such as CK3, Wasteland 3 etc. But many of these are made by smaller groups/developers.

It's interesting how many games that actually being patreon funded ones that find their ways to steam though. If you support a creator for a specific game, I would suggest stop back once it's available on steam. And I suggest for creators that do this, give your patreon's free steam keys.

 

[recreation]

It's more like you can't really compare "adult" game studios such as Illusion, with the creators you find on this site. If you start browse by tags on Steam, you will find such as "Nudity" got 2046 entries. "Sexual content" a bit less, but you can't really read all as "porn", because you find any games that have traces of it in the listings as well, such as CK3, Wasteland 3 etc. But many of these are made by smaller groups/developers.

It's interesting how many games that actually being patreon funded ones that find their ways to steam though. If you support a creator for a specific game, I would suggest stop back once it's available on steam. And I suggest for creators that do this, give your patreon's free steam keys.

That's basically what I meant with "you can't compare them". Devs here are nothing like Illusion or any other "studio" or even indy devs.

Regarding steam you forget that there are devs who give their games out for free *cough* xD
Also does it really matter if you can get the full verson on patreon or steam? I still see patreon as a place to support the dev, not as a place to "buy" something.

 

[Joshua Tree]

That's basically what I meant with "you can't compare them". Devs here are nothing like Illusion or any other "studio" or even indy devs.

Regarding steam you forget that there are devs who give their games out for free *cough* xD
Also does it really matter if you can get the full verson on patreon or steam? I still see patreon as a place to support the dev, not as a place to "buy" something.

Sure, but once the creator put their creation on steam. I feel my level of support for that particular project have reached its end. They went retail after all. If they start some new project, I might keep pledge if its interesting enough. I think it would be a "fan" service at least to give patreons a steam key. You might have a backers that have put 5 bucks in the tip jar for 2 years, totaling many times over what it would cost to buy once on steam...

 

[recreation]

Sure, but once the creator put their creation on steam. I feel my level of support for that particular project have reached its end. They went retail after all. If they start some new project, I might keep pledge if its interesting enough. I think it would be a "fan" service at least to give patreons a steam key. You might have a backers that have put 5 bucks in the tip jar for 2 years, totaling many times over what it would cost to buy once on steam...

But then again you can still download the full version on patreon usually, so why would you need a steam key^^

 

[Joshua Tree]

But then again you can still download the full version on patreon usually, so why would you need a steam key^^

Why not? Maybe I'm not afraid of have smut games in my steam library

 

[RanliLabz]

This is an incredibly weird thread.

The OP and all its subsequent reiterations appear to rest on a number of wildly inaccurate assumptions:
1.) That we all live in California:
We do not. In the UK $50k a year is a pretty decent wage, in Russia it's enough to attract the attentions of the local mafiosi, and in Thailand you can buy a tittie-joint and live the good-life. Even in many US states this would be enough to support a pleasant lifestyle. None of these other places are teaming with desperate but talented coders, screenwriters and voice-actors, crowding around your house at night like a horde of starving zombies and waving resumes in their rotting claws.

2.) Patreon is an investment vehicle:
Patreon has nothing - repeat, nothing - to do with capital investment. Patrons receive no stake in the project for their kind donations - but they do get to support a project they want to continue, join a community, receive bonuses, take part in polls, and gain a direct line to the developer. This is a good thing - it is pure. It means that there is no external pressure on the devs besides their own creativity and market popularity. No-one wishing to make money on Patreon should even consider it unless they have been a Patron themselves.

3.) Capital Investment improves creative projects:
What!? No studio executive or investor has ever made any game, film, or tv show better. They ruin it - fuck it up beyond all recognition... kill it. Until recently the only exception to this was Harvey Weinstein... but I probably don't need to tell you what happened there . [Note: Producers can be extremely valuable in large creative projects - but the waged ones, not the ones with executive in front of their names.]

4.) That there's no such thing as diminishing returns:
If a solo dev can make 1 bushel of wheat, 2 can make 1.5 bushels of wheat, and 3 can make 1.75 bushels of wheat. By the time you get to 7, 2 bushels of wheat does not go far. This is because planning, communicating with one another, working at cross purposes, duplication of effort - or just screwing around and shooting the breeze - eats time. And it's exponential! Not all team members are equally capable, hard-working or trustworthy. Time zones can be a bitch: if all you need is 5 fill-in pictures to meet the deadline, waiting until your artist in Mumbai wakes up is going to be agony. Just consider how much less productive Dark Cookie and ICSTOR have been since they expanded their teams.

Wheat, dude. It's all about that sweet, sweet, wheat .

5.) That being an adult-game dev is a career:
It is not. To be a little French here... 'it is a passion!' No-one gets into this because they want to be a CEO, or a producer, or team-leader. They don't want to start as a grunt who makes the tea and occasionally gets to draw a tit in the hope they can climb up the greasy corporate ladder. Sure - you can make a living at it (I do!) - but most of us are auteurs, hobbyists, vain-glorious praise-whores, and folks who used up all the porn in the world and had to start making their own.

6.) Solo projects are generally non-viable:
Crazed. Most of the best adult-game projects are solo, including many of the most profitable. I make decent money with mine, DrPinkCake and Redamz must be raking it in! Check out the most successful adult games

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.

7.) That anyone who has not made a successful adult game knows how to make a successful adult game:
Sorry... but you don't.

8.) You are the only one who can make an unbearable wall of text no-one will ever read:
I just text-walled your ass!

 

[Cherry Bomb]

I made a fairly detailed but also very short post addressing a lot of complaints I had with what you've been saying, DaClown, and you replied to literally 1 and a half sentences of that with a massive essay when both of those sentences were throwaway comments not even related to the bulk of my point.

I will repeat what I said in my original comment because of this, "You sound a lot more like you're chastising people for piracy rather than trying to create a level of understanding here." You're just fishing for excuses to dismiss people and get your specific message out rather than actually answer any questions about what you believe.

PS: I will also repeat my PS, you need to learn to shorten what you're saying. There is absolutely no reason for you to reply to "As you go on you get more into pushing for that 60 dollar price point " with 6 paragraphs of text.

 

[215303j]

This profile of an adult game dev immediately places the majority of such people in your implicit view into middle or upper class internationally and in a variety of national economies including the US.

Well, although it is secondary, I do think it makes sense. A good adult game dev would need well above average intelligence to do the various tasks needed, such as writing, programming and rendering. Those skills would imply that this person could also hold a well paying job.

Argument #2 is worth elaborating. If a team is taking in exactly their costs of living and the project is their only source of income or intended to be their only or primary source of income then the team is not raising enough funds for game development; the project will cost more than the cost of living for each team member. 300$/week is still 1200$/month per team member and is a substandard wage in the international software and media industries. 500$/week is still 2000$/month per team member and is a substandard wage in the international software and media industries. You'd be better off joining a well managed indie venture. The 3800$/month that I state in the OP includes both enough income for the dev to live on and enough income to invest in the development project over a 5 to 10 year time frame.

I wrote $300-$500 per week, but I meant to write per month, which is not a strange salary for countries like Russia, Ukraine, various Asian countries etc. For sure, professionals in certain industries may make more than the national median or average salaries.

You can emphasize the differences between the US and the EU; however, it is more useful to emphasize the differences between the North Atlantic economies and economies like India, China, and the many South Asian countries.

What I meant to say is that cost of living is significantly different, because tax structures, salary structures and social benefit structures are vastly different.

This affects salary as well. Maybe in the US, a salary of $100.000 / year (gross) would be reasonable for a reasonably good programmer, but in most of Western Europe the salary for the same position would be more like $50.000 / year (gross), meaning something like $35.000 / year (net). But then social securities, pensions, health care, schooling etc. is all paid already. In the end, the disposable income could be somewhat similar, but then you come to costs of groceries, clothing etc. etc. It's incredibly hard to compare salary figures internationally.

 

[Luderos]

Maybe in the US, a salary of $100.000 / year (gross) would be reasonable for a reasonably good programmer, but in most of Western Europe the salary for the same position would be more like $50.000 / year (gross), meaning something like $35.000 / year (net). But then social securities, pensions, health care, schooling etc. is all paid already. In the end, the disposable income could be somewhat similar, but then you come to costs of groceries, clothing etc. etc. It's incredibly hard to compare salary figures internationally.

Not sure which the op was referring to with the numbers, but just a quick note that $100k gets tossed around a lot for the general cost of a developer, but that often gets interpereted as salary. When we're talking about building teams, the cost to the company of keeping someone employed is the important number, and, depending on the company, that could be 1.5-2x the salary number. So a 100k cost of employment might really mean a 50-70k salary. (Of course, that multiplier may be even more in a country with more social programs where the company is expected to shoulder some of the burden.)

It's also worth mentioning that someone working in Silicon Vally can make MUCH more than someone working outside of a tech hub, especially in smaller towns/cities. I would guess that there are FAR more developers in the US making 35k than 100k.

 

[Joshua Tree]

It's also worth mentioning that someone working in Silicon Vally can make MUCH more than someone working outside of a tech hub, especially in smaller towns/cities. I would guess that there are FAR more developers in the US making 35k than 100k.

This.. .Also the cost of living (housing etc), tend to be way higher in these TECH areas... You could live in some more rural area and just do contract work, and make a shitload more than someone that employed full time working in some office environment in Silicon Valley (or similar tech hubs).

 

[Joshua Tree]

3.) Capital Investment improves creative projects:
What!? No studio executive or investor has ever made any game, film, or tv show better. They ruin it - fuck it up beyond all recognition... kill it. Until recently the only exception to this was Harvey Weinstein... but I probably don't need to tell you what happened there . [Note: Producers can be extremely valuable in large creative projects - but the waged ones, not the ones with executive in front of their names.]

Stories like this come out of the industry every so often...

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4.) That there's no such thing as diminishing returns:
If a solo dev can make 1 bushel of wheat, 2 can make 1.5 bushels of wheat, and 3 can make 1.75 bushels of wheat. By the time you get to 7, 2 bushels of wheat does not go far. This is because planning, communicating with one another, working at cross purposes, duplication of effort - or just screwing around and shooting the breeze - eats time. And it's exponential! Not all team members are equally capable, hard-working or trustworthy. Time zones can be a bitch: if all you need is 5 fill-in pictures to meet the deadline, waiting until your artist in Mumbai wakes up is going to be agony. Just consider how much less productive Dark Cookie and ICSTOR have been since they expanded their teams.

Maybe they just wet eyed dreaming back to the time they just was working on their passion rather than herding cats, management and being an employer.. With the amount of cash DarkCookie pull the myth about more support/cash make development go faster is shattered beyond any reason. Or that adding more team members make it go faster. I did pledge to him early on, but as time dragged on my interest faded tbh.

 

[DaClown]

I will no longer be replying to or answering questions that I deem to be off topic or derailing the thread per forum rules. If what is being talked about isn't about the general notions of the cost of a team or the price of a video game then I'll be ignoring them. Find some other thread or make your own if you want to talk about things irrelevant to this thread.

when you employ someone, they don't need to share your passion, just have the skills you need to work on your game.

Generally speaking with indie projects the team is characterized as a joint venture not as a single employer employing the rest of the team. As has been discussed here at some length, very few projects are going to be under the purview of some large investment of a single executive producer or under a publisher. Which means generally the context within which I am talking about getting a team means that I am advising that you share the game dev project with other people on a more or less equal basis in something like a partnership or LLC as appropriate to the needs and trust of the constituent members of the project.

Also, bold of y'all to assume that you're the employer not the employee. My own interests are in game design; I do not presume based on what I have learned that I would be the lead in a game dev project, and I no longer have interest in being the lead in such projects. My job as I see it and understand it from industrial standards is to come up with documents for the prototyping, play testing, and production process and produce reports of the results of actions taken to effect those documents and advise changes based on feedback.

My role in a team is not employing people, and for a project that I work on, I would not be seeking to lead or employ; I would not be seeking team members to work for me.

There's a common piece of advise that goes around from well established game developers. Get rid of your ego. Players come first.

I find it's very hard to find anyone motivated enough even if you pay them for the work they do. At least for creative work.
Hiring a programmer is probably x10 easier than a writer or artist. As they find little motivation working on other's "vision" and rather create something of their own. Money won't save if there's no motivation/passion.

Finding a team is hard. Finding a team that actually works together is very hard. Maintaining a team that works together under adverse conditions of game develop is monumentally hard. That's all only slightly easier and more worthwhile in general than doing literally everything yourself.

How to build teams, how to work together on a team, how to maintain teams and resolve conflicts, and so on is beyond the scope of this thread.

Not sure which the op was referring to with the numbers, but just a quick note that $100k gets tossed around a lot for the general cost of a developer, but that often gets interpreted as salary. When we're talking about building teams, the cost to the company of keeping someone employed is the important number, and, depending on the company, that could be 1.5-2x the salary number. So a 100k cost of employment might really mean a 50-70k salary.

One of the things in the OP that I linked has the rundown of the numbers I use here. I laid out the results of that video in the post.

In the

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, the indie devs all make less than the average professional at a standard game studio. Quality assurance professionals in corporate game development make around 54K$/year on average; these are the people who are professional play testers and trained statisticians; they are the bottom of the bracket. Artists are higher up at 74K$/year and Game Designers are around the same at 73K$/year. Producers make 82K$/year. Programmers and audio engineers make the most of the non-business and non-management positions at around 92 to 95K$/year. Business and management people make 100K$/year on average. The average income of corporate game developers compared to indie game developers is higher by 30K$/year. Indie game developers accept the lower income and the challenges that come with that form of development because they get intangible, social benefits that can not be gained from rigid corporate for-profit structures.

The survey is due to

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and is a survey of 4,000 worldwide developers.

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.

 

[Joshua Tree]

Also, bold of y'all to assume that you're the employer not the employee. My own interests are in game design; I do not presume based on what I have learned that I would be the lead in a game dev project, and I no longer have interest in being the lead in such projects. My job as I see it and understand it from industrial standards is to come up with documents for the prototyping, play testing, and production process and produce reports of the results of actions taken to effect those documents and advise changes based on feedback.

My role in a team is not employing people, and for a project that I work on, I would not be seeking to lead or employ; I would not be seeking team members to work for me.

Uh? If you expect someone around these parts to start make a team (game studio, whatever). That person would take on the role as management from the get go. They wouldn't have the means to just go out and hire a team manager. Such a position without any other contributing talent, would be considered DEAD WEIGHT. Heck, look at established game studios out there doing non adult stuff. You have text writers double as coders, doing advertisement and whatever just to mention a few.
Youtube is full of workshops and industry session Q&A's "how to become X" in the industry.

If YOU started a studio without a nickle to your name. You would be that person in charge. Regardless if your part in the actual work would be focused around game design.

 

[RanliLabz]

Maybe they just wet eyed dreaming back to the time they just was working on their passion rather than herding cats, management and being an employer.. With the amount of cash DarkCookie pull the myth about more support/cash make development go faster is shattered beyond any reason. Or that adding more team members make it go faster. I did pledge to him early on, but as time dragged on my interest faded tbh.

Yeah, I pledged for a few months - seemed like a really promising game before idiots made DarkCookie a millionaire and he decided he didn't need to bother any more. Summertime Saga is now basically just a PR and web-management firm - and the prime evidence against teams (I mean - Cookie must be sunning himself in the Seychelles or something, but what the heck are his six employees doing?)

I will no longer be replying to or answering questions that I deem to be off topic or derailing the thread per forum rules. If what is being talked about isn't about the general notions of the cost of a team or the price of a video game then I'll be ignoring them. Find some other thread or make your own if you want to talk about things irrelevant to this thread.

He says before immediately breaking his own rules for the next six paragraphs

Also, bold of y'all to assume that you're the employer not the employee. My own interests are in game design; I do not presume based on what I have learned that I would be the lead in a game dev project, and I no longer have interest in being the lead in such projects. My job as I see it and understand it from industrial standards is to come up with documents for the prototyping, play testing, and production process and produce reports of the results of actions taken to effect those documents and advise changes based on feedback.

My role in a team is not employing people, and for a project that I work on, I would not be seeking to lead or employ; I would not be seeking team members to work for me.

There's a common piece of advise that goes around from well established game developers. Get rid of your ego. Players come first.

Are you just trying to lay out your salary conditions for joining a team? No-one is going to pay you what you used to get in Silicon Valley to work on an adult game - especially since your role is pure overhead.

The survey is due to

You must be registered to see the links

and is a survey of 4,000 worldwide developers.

You must be registered to see the links

.

From the Report Methodology: "While there were participants from all parts of the world, this report focuses primarily on U.S. compensation, plus additional consolidated figures for respondents from Canada and Europe. The total sample reflected in the data presented for U.S. is 1,246; for Canada 292; and for Europe 573. For other global regions there was insufficient sample size to include in the report."

i.e. almost 3/4 of survey respondents are North American and all are from the developed world. (cos Japan and China don't have a games industry )

That's why people keep bringing up the fact that salaries vary according to country (which you bizarrely seem to consider irrelevant) - adult-gaming is very international.