The Cost of a Development Team and The Price of a Video Game

[DaClown]

If you expect someone around these parts to start make a team (game studio, whatever). That person would take on the role as management from the get go. They wouldn't have the means to just go out and hire a team manager.

That is a misconception. The person who starts a project is not necessarily the person who manages the project nor necessarily the person who is the executive of the project.

Also, one of the common roles of media production in general is the

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; the producer is distinctly different than a team

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because their job is to fill the development demand gaps and organize the project; they need to be a little bit programmer, a little bit artist, a little bit writer, a little bit game designer, and a lot of

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. The smaller the team the more of each of those things they need to be to compensate for the lack in whatever team members form the team.

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are different from

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.

Game producers are also distinctly different from

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.

You may for instance write up a game design document that some number of people are very enthusiastic about; some people might take up that document and start to actually implement it. Some people might be motivated to start facilitating the communications of different people implementing parts of the game design. It most likely ends up being a disorganized mess with no one taking control and the whole thing collapsing but that is "par for the course". At a certain level, you don't have to be on the team if you've produced a sufficiently detailed game design document.

Similarly, You could produce a

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,

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, and a

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and hand that all off to someone with either money or motivation that can effectively implement or enact that package; they might setup a kickstarter campaign, a patreon campaign, a corporation, and some form of collaborative repository for documentation based on the instructions you put together. Again, you don't have to be involved or leading or

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. You don't necessarily have to be the one that does all the work or assumes the risk.

 

[Cherry Bomb]

I will no longer be replying to or answering questions that I deem to be off topic or derailing the thread per forum rules. If what is being talked about isn't about the general notions of the cost of a team or the price of a video game then I'll be ignoring them. Find some other thread or make your own if you want to talk about things irrelevant to this thread.

Translation: I will no longer address any points that could make me look like a hypocrite, ill-informed or otherwise damage what I'm trying to push.

You set up the premise of this thread as complaining about Piracy and how much goes into created games but now you're trying to tell everyone that unless we're discussing ridged numbers then its off topic and you're not going to listen to us. If anything you don't want a forum thread, you want a blog post where you can whine about how the world isn't perfect and things don't always go your way.

The long and short of it is, H-Games tend to be a market filled with piracy because H-Games themselves have not proven themselves by and large to be deserving of respect. Most devs in this realm completely forget what they're trying to make, straight up give up before really taking off or just start off with a terrible idea to begin with. People don't like to pay for their H because it often feels like its wasted and they're not only not getting something worthy out of it, but they're supporting someone who will most likely never produce another project again.

Theres a ton we could actually discuss about why H games tend to be a hot bed of piracy but all you want to do in this thread is chastise pirates because "making games cost money." Yeah, they do, and news flash: People have to work hard to earn their money so they tend to be very selective about how they spend it. If this was about any sort of "understanding" you'd be ready to meet some of us half-way and have a real discussion about this but all you want to do is give raw numbers about how much stuff costs and even then you're getting almost all the numbers wrong.

 

[Luderos]

Of course, the dark side of the salary survey thing is that it overlooks that the most common "salary" for an indie, team or not, is zero. Even for a successful indie team, their salary was likely zero (or close enough to it) until they became successful. That's not very relevant to players, but it's the most relevant possible thing for developers.

 

[Joshua Tree]

Of course, the dark side of the salary survey thing is that it overlooks that the most common "salary" for an indie, team or not, is zero. Even for a successful indie team, their salary was likely zero (or close enough to it) until they became successful. That's not very relevant to players, but it's the most relevant possible thing for developers.

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[GlowPussy]

What I want everyone to take away from this thread is that what y'all are doing is worth a lot lot lot more than you might think or be led to believe it is worth. Persistently under valuing your labor or the products of your labor is a good way to burn out. There's a whole market opening up for people to publish on, and there is an international porn revolution and revolt underway if y'all didn't know. I can not begin to tell you how thirsty people are for sexy games.

Experienced independent artists and sex workers all tell noobs the same thing: YOU ARE UNDERCHARGING. CHARGE WHAT YOU ARE WORTH. The devaluation of artistic and sexual labor kills people. You deserve to get paid.

 

[Joshua Tree]

Experienced independent artists and sex workers all tell noobs the same thing: YOU ARE UNDERCHARGING. CHARGE WHAT YOU ARE WORTH. The devaluation of artistic and sexual labor kills people. You deserve to get paid.

"Sex workers" charge what they charge because of competition. You know; Supply and demand...

Experienced independent artists moaning about not be paid what they are worth... uhm, git gud?

 

[GlowPussy]

"Sex workers" charge what they charge because of competition. You know; Supply and demand...

Experienced independent artists moaning about not be paid what they are worth... uhm, git gud?

Actually, people get paid for their time and labor by organizing in unions and warning each other about the kind of customer who refuses to pay. Just like DaClown has been talking about this entire thread.

 

[Joshua Tree]

Actually, people get paid for their time and labor by organizing in unions and warning each other about the kind of customer who refuses to pay. Just like DaClown has been talking about this entire thread.

I know there is "sex worker union" like

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But when it come to pay in the sex industry, you will see "locals" get squeezed out by influx of sex workers from the outside.
As for the gaming industry it pays off hire talent in low cost countries, rather than locals where you are. If unions in the game industry had been much of a thing, then the "dreaded crunch culture" wouldn't been much of a thing at all...

A market is always regulated by supply and demand. That involves work as well... If your profession and expertise is in high demand, you get paid more. If you are "dime a dozen", tough luck...

 

[GlowPussy]

I'm confused by the confusion surrounding this post.

"Pay people for their labor" is not or should not be a controversial opinion. Pirating from big conglomerates from Disney is one thing (seriously, go for it). Stealing from independent game creators, artists, and sex workers is quite another. If you pirate from other poor people because you're poor, okay, but when the market has nothing to offer because most would-be creators had to choose between game dev and rent, don't be surprised.

 

[Joshua Tree]

I'm confused by the confusion surrounding this post.

"Pay people for their labor" is not or should not be a controversial opinion. Pirating from big conglomerates from Disney is one thing (seriously, go for it). Stealing from independent game creators, artists, and sex workers is quite another. If you pirate from other poor people because you're poor, okay, but when the market has nothing to offer because most would-be creators had to choose between game dev and rent, don't be surprised.

Pirating is pirating, doesn't matter who or what get pirated. This site hoist the jolly rogers. But it's also a meeting place of creators, talents and fans. It's a place where people discover creators they like and want to pledge to. Patreon doesn't market you as a creator or what you do. As a creator on Patreon you need to reach out and spread the word and make yourself and your project know. Without sites like this with a massive amount of users, it would get harder to do.

 

[M$hot]

I'm a business owner (not anything adult, basically a restaurant with a complete bar) and I find it quite stressful to have to manage all these people, make sure there's no clashes between team-members, keeping up to date so everyone gets paid the right amount at the right time.. And that's only 9 employees. The idea of coming home after that, only to deal with another team of people to manage? Hold my hand while I throw up please.

Some people, like myself, are not looking for profit, but something fun to do, I won't make anything, I won't charge anything. I don't like spending time on my hobby and having to expect things from others or have them expect things from me. Yes, ideally people would make a decent wage for a decent product, I just don't think this is that industry (yet). Just a small idea I was kicking around would cost like $1.2m and predicted loss in the area of 85%. Adult Games isn't like Uber or Amazon, you can't spend multiple years in the red simply to take market share. Perhaps if I did 3 of those games I could run a decent profit on the 4th. A breakeven point 7 years in the future and nearly $5m deep is just not something I can imagine happening anywhere in the near future, who the hell can both afford and is willing to take that risk?

Also, even if I would be willing to take that risk, there's still the matter of my wife having to agree and the stigma against adult themed things in our social circle is strong.

One last thing, Patreon can swing wildly if your vision and execution for the next update are at odds with the folks paying. If you wanted to kill the sister in Milfy City for shock value for example, I imagine you could see a significant dip. So either you're kind of beholden to spoil every aspect of your game or not taking many risks in the story, leading to a generally unsatisfying game. OR you can create your vision, spend all the money up front and hope you can get thousands of $30 sales on Steam to eventually break even. Because most folks can't take such risks, and even if they can there's better ROI in a bunch of places, the adult games industry is in the situation it's in.

Just my 2 eurocents.

 

[Obscure]

Twice as much money flowing into twice as many employees does not equal twice as much work being done.

I don't understand how big businesses manage to get anything at all done.

 

[desmosome]

Great discussion all around. I've read up to the first 2 pages, but I wanted to chime in a bit here.

I think DaClown is overestimating the skills of the average developer in this site. Basically, it's not so much of a decision between going pro and staying a hobbyist, but some of them just don't have the necessary skills, education, or portfolio to even consider themselves "game developers" in the professional sense.

There are artists that learn how to code. There are programmers that learn how to DAZ. There are some people with all the skills and background to make it in the game dev market. However, I think there are just as much, if not more, people that just come up with a idea for a story and dive right in after googling a bit about renpy/DAZ. Sure, they can learn a lot over time, and this could be the start of their career, but that's not very realistic. These people are probably more than happy to get whatever chump change they can get while they work on their hobby. At least until their skills improve and their work starts generating decent income.

I believe some of more successful devs on F95zone did start out as complete newbs who just learned how to code, render, and write. How do these skills translate to the greater game dev market though? I could be just ignorant on this matter, but if I go to an interview at a game company with a resume highlighting "Creator of Incest Dreamz. Able to use DAZ software. Able to do basic code on renpy by googling the info," I don't think it would be a particularly happy memory.

Could you really say the average adult game dev on the site has equivalent qualifications to whoever is getting hired for entry level game developer positions? These are not just rhetorical questions, because I really don't know hehe. Sure, the hours they put in and the general work they are doing might be the same, but that doesn't always translate to their "worth" being equal.

You are probably right that expanding, hiring, and outsourcing more would lead to a higher ceiling for these projects once it gets past the initial grind. However, it is also a matter of risk vs reward. Changing the status quo inherently brings with it some risks. What if the other guy is hard to work with? What if the project doesn't grow as expected? What if splitting work is a big headache for me because I'm a lone wolf kinda guy? Not to mention, you will need to pick up another skillset on top of whatever you were doing: management. You can't really say either decision is right or wrong because some people just don't want to deal with all that headache and are content where they are.

 

[fidless]

Great discussion all around. I've read up to the first 2 pages, but I wanted to chime in a bit here.

I think DaClown is overestimating the skills of the average developer in this site. Basically, it's not so much of a decision between going pro and staying a hobbyist, but some of them just don't have the necessary skills, education, or portfolio to even consider themselves "game developers" in the professional sense.

There are artists that learn how to code. There are programmers that learn how to DAZ. There are some people with all the skills and background to make it in the game dev market. However, I think there are just as much, if not more, people that just come up with a idea for a story and dive right in after googling a bit about renpy/DAZ. Sure, they can learn a lot over time, and this could be the start of their career, but that's not very realistic. These people are probably more than happy to get whatever chump change they can get while they work on their hobby. At least until their skills improve and their work starts generating decent income.

I believe some of more successful devs on F95zone did start out as complete newbs who just learned how to code, render, and write. How do these skills translate to the greater game dev market though? I could be just ignorant on this matter, but if I go to an interview at a game company with a resume highlighting "Creator of Incest Dreamz. Able to use DAZ software. Able to do basic code on renpy by googling the info," I don't think it would be a particularly happy memory.

Could you really say the average adult game dev on the site has equivalent qualifications to whoever is getting hired for entry level game developer positions? These are not just rhetorical questions, because I really don't know hehe. Sure, the hours they put in and the general work they are doing might be the same, but that doesn't always translate to their "worth" being equal.

You are probably right that expanding, hiring, and outsourcing more would lead to a higher ceiling for these projects once it gets past the initial grind. However, it is also a matter of risk vs reward. Changing the status quo inherently brings with it some risks. What if the other guy is hard to work with? What if the project doesn't grow as expected? What if splitting work is a big headache for me because I'm a lone wolf kinda guy? Not to mention, you will need to pick up another skillset on top of whatever you were doing: management. You can't really say either decision is right or wrong because some people just don't want to deal with all that headache and are content where they are.

Posing in daz3d and writing basic code for renpy == 0 at the actual workplace where actual programming/or working with models/textures (knowing how to rig and create your own models and environments) are needed. No one will hire such a person as they don't have any skills needed for any project.
You can't really compare ero devs who work with mostly premade assets and code to actual programmers and asset makers who make that stuff from a to z.
He's talking about ero devs who're at the skill to make games like "wild life", but those are only a few in a bigger picture of the Hgame dev community.
Most western ero devs skillset is too limited and narrow for the actual workforce and earning at least an average Mcdonald salary for their work through Patreon is quite the achievement. Including myself.

 

[anne O'nymous]

[...] and the prime evidence against teams (I mean - Cookie must be sunning himself in the Seychelles or something, but what the heck are his six employees doing?)

They are struggling with the works left by the previous guy in their position, and stuck between it and DarkCookie expectation.

One just can't pass from a solo development to a team development without hurting the project. Everybody have his own style, whatever his job is to write the story, write the dialogs, drawn the CG, render 3D cg or write the code. Therefore, either the game will change when you add someone to the project, or it will suffer from a drastic slow down because the new guy will have to works against himself, in order to copy exactly the previous style.
Put someone else in charge of the CG of your game, and it will lost the unique atmosphere due to the way they are rendered. It would become something else, something that would be too different to effectively please the same public.


Anyway, talking about numbers is great, but it's missing the reality by far.
Indie productions aren't a question of money, they are a question of passion ; especially on a scene like this one, that is a niche market full of niche markets. Devs are happy when they earn enough money to cover their cost, but it's neither what lead them, nor their effective goal.
Plus, the said numbers are ridiculously wrong. DaClown talked about US$ 3800/month to be able to live in the USA ? It's the cost for someone with a job, not someone self employed that have to pay the taxes, his insurance, and all. And, of course, this apply only for the USA, while we know that around 75% of the devs live somewhere else. There's few of them, who could live two months with such money, while others could only live two weeks.

This said, the real cost of making an indie game can't be expressed by talking about money. Simply because the price to pay concern your social life. And that's the reason why devs tend to slowdown their project when they finally reach success. Now that there's people really interested by what they do, they start to live again. The players can wait one/two weeks more between the updates, and the dev can have part of his social life back.

 

[recreation]

There's a common piece of advise that goes around from well established game developers. Get rid of your ego. Players come first.

While the actual meaning of that quote is very much true, it's a very dangerous sentence to quote on it's own and led to awfull games and a lot of devs and even big studios downfall, I'd even go as far and say that sentence on it's own, without explanation is just wrong.

Great discussion all around. I've read up to the first 2 pages, but I wanted to chime in a bit here.

I think DaClown is overestimating the skills of the average developer in this site. Basically, it's not so much of a decision between going pro and staying a hobbyist, but some of them just don't have the necessary skills, education, or portfolio to even consider themselves "game developers" in the professional sense.

There are artists that learn how to code. There are programmers that learn how to DAZ. There are some people with all the skills and background to make it in the game dev market. However, I think there are just as much, if not more, people that just come up with a idea for a story and dive right in after googling a bit about renpy/DAZ. Sure, they can learn a lot over time, and this could be the start of their career, but that's not very realistic. These people are probably more than happy to get whatever chump change they can get while they work on their hobby. At least until their skills improve and their work starts generating decent income.

I believe some of more successful devs on F95zone did start out as complete newbs who just learned how to code, render, and write. How do these skills translate to the greater game dev market though? I could be just ignorant on this matter, but if I go to an interview at a game company with a resume highlighting "Creator of Incest Dreamz. Able to use DAZ software. Able to do basic code on renpy by googling the info," I don't think it would be a particularly happy memory.

Could you really say the average adult game dev on the site has equivalent qualifications to whoever is getting hired for entry level game developer positions? These are not just rhetorical questions, because I really don't know hehe. Sure, the hours they put in and the general work they are doing might be the same, but that doesn't always translate to their "worth" being equal.

You are probably right that expanding, hiring, and outsourcing more would lead to a higher ceiling for these projects once it gets past the initial grind. However, it is also a matter of risk vs reward. Changing the status quo inherently brings with it some risks. What if the other guy is hard to work with? What if the project doesn't grow as expected? What if splitting work is a big headache for me because I'm a lone wolf kinda guy? Not to mention, you will need to pick up another skillset on top of whatever you were doing: management. You can't really say either decision is right or wrong because some people just don't want to deal with all that headache and are content where they are.

I guess I'd fall into the category of the "more" experienced "devs" here even though I haven't done any games before, but I had experience in basically all parts of developement individually before I started working on my own game, I've done level design and some game scripting, I'm experienced with different design processes, I was working in small developement teams before, etc. pp, most of it happened ages ago, but the point is that even though I have the experience, I have absolutely no intentions to make this whole developement thing a business and I'm not interested in making my own game studio or whatever, and most other devs I've been talking to think the same.

Most dev's in this niche see it as a private fun thing, something they enjoy to do while being completely independent, some do a collab with people they like, some of the "big devs" outsource work to have more free time, but you won't see many devs making a real business out of this, there's simply no interest for that, and the whole discussion here is missing the point of that.

 

[fidless]

They are struggling with the works left by the previous guy in their position, and stuck between it and DarkCookie expectation.

One just can't pass from a solo development to a team development without hurting the project. Everybody have his own style, whatever his job is to write the story, write the dialogs, drawn the CG, render 3D cg or write the code. Therefore, either the game will change when you add someone to the project, or it will suffer from a drastic slow down because the new guy will have to works against himself, in order to copy exactly the previous style.
Put someone else in charge of the CG of your game, and it will lost the unique atmosphere due to the way they are rendered. It would become something else, something that would be too different to effectively please the same public.


Anyway, talking about numbers is great, but it's missing the reality by far.
Indie productions aren't a question of money, they are a question of passion ; especially on a scene like this one, that is a niche market full of niche markets. Devs are happy when they earn enough money to cover their cost, but it's neither what lead them, nor their effective goal.
Plus, the said numbers are ridiculously wrong. DaClown talked about US$ 3800/month to be able to live in the USA ? It's the cost for someone with a job, not someone self employed that have to pay the taxes, his insurance, and all. And, of course, this apply only for the USA, while we know that around 75% of the devs live somewhere else. There's few of them, who could live two months with such money, while others could only live two weeks.

This said, the real cost of making an indie game can't be expressed by talking about money. Simply because the price to pay concern your social life. And that's the reason why devs tend to slowdown their project when they finally reach success. Now that there's people really interested by what they do, they start to live again. The players can wait one/two weeks more between the updates, and the dev can have part of his social life back.

Social life is overrated.

 

[anne O'nymous]

While the actual meaning of that quote is very much true, it's a very dangerous sentence to quote on it's own and led to awfull games and a lot of devs and even big studios downfall,

Ethan's Legacy... How to kill an interesting story, and almost kill its author from exhaustion and nervous breakdown, in four steps :

• Find an author that listen too much to the players ;
• Ask for the addition of your preferred kink ;
• Wait for someone asking for the removing of the said kink ;
• Sit down an watch the dev trying to comply to both request until it burn.

[...] but the point is that even though I have the experience, I have absolutely no intentions to make this whole developement thing a business and I'm not interested in making my own game studio or whatever, and most other devs I've been talking to think the same.

You're an exception, since you even waited many months before opening your own Patreon account, but yet you're right. Even the succeeding devs who start to use a team, or those established since years and have already finished many games, haven't gone for the studio route.
They don't want to lead a bunch of people into making adult games, they want to make adult games. And those are two totally different things. It's also the reason why most devs works alone ; making game is their pleasure, a pleasure that sometimes permit them to have a decent live, and a pleasure that if sometimes full of constraints, but still a pleasure before everything else. This while leading a team, and even more leading a studio, is a job.

 

[Luderos]

I believe some of more successful devs on F95zone did start out as complete newbs who just learned how to code, render, and write. How do these skills translate to the greater game dev market though? I could be just ignorant on this matter, but if I go to an interview at a game company with a resume highlighting "Creator of Incest Dreamz. Able to use DAZ software. Able to do basic code on renpy by googling the info," I don't think it would be a particularly happy memory.

Could you really say the average adult game dev on the site has equivalent qualifications to whoever is getting hired for entry level game developer positions? These are not just rhetorical questions, because I really don't know hehe. Sure, the hours they put in and the general work they are doing might be the same, but that doesn't always translate to their "worth" being equal.

Imo, the real thing that indie development teaches you is how to learn fast and solve problems. Will that get you a game industry job by itself? Probably not, but it does prepare you for it better than one may think. Entry level jobs are typically peole being hired to do something specific with a specific piece of software (modelling in Maya, level design in Unreal, or whatever). Experience in Daz and Renpy won't really help directly, but if someone decides they want to go down the industry path, that experience would certainly help them learn and build portfolio pieces in the target software.

Once you've put in the time and effort to get good at any kind of development, spending a few months focused on learning a new tool (and building a targeted portfolio) can produce suprisingly good results and probably could get you considered for those jobs.

 

[wintergreen44]

Could you really say the average adult game dev on the site has equivalent qualifications to whoever is getting hired for entry level game developer positions? These are not just rhetorical questions, because I really don't know hehe. Sure, the hours they put in and the general work they are doing might be the same, but that doesn't always translate to their "worth" being equal.

In a word, no. I'd say the average creator here is not hireable as even a jr developer in the "real" world. You have to be skilled using the languages and tools that the company actually uses. Experience with Renpy and RPGM won't count for much. Unity is another story, as is creating your own art assets.

Its worth pointing out that game development is a small slice of the software development world. If you look at your local job listings there may not be anything game related, but plenty of other dev and QA openings available. If you want to become a developer and make some steady money learning Python, Javascript or even Powershell is a lot more marketable than mastering a specific, niche tool. Without a CS degree, you may be get a chance to demonstrate your ability, or going the QA route can get you in the door somewhere and you can work your way up. The job requirements there will vary wildly depending on what type of testing they want you to do.

Regarding teamwork, you might be surprised at how productive a dev team can be using modern development philosophy and logistics. Each team member making meaningful progress every single working day is very achievable. Waterfall development with no oversight is going to be a shitshow, yes. You need to move past that.