VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.1] [Ceolag]

[Maviarab]

So I'm the President in your world, huh?

Ohh Gaaawwd....

 

[prpa]

Honesty vs Lies

Finn was completely honest from the start. She didn't lie, deceive or pretend.
We knew she hates our guts from the start.
Why did she hate them? Because her interactions with humans have been from talking to Templars.

Meanwhile Kaija deceived, lied and (non-love path) pretended to love person she was in relationship with so she can do her job, FOR YEARS.

I've gone to kind of "OK, let's move on" phase with Kaija and did her love route, and it's great.
Don't know if he ever officially said anything, but she definitely seems to me like Ceolags favorite and that shows.
Without a doubt best characterized character in the game, like her or not.

But at the same time, it's very, very easy to hate her.
Additionally, some of us played game before Ceolag re-did bits of Act 1. Previously slap on ass gave 0 points, making it fairly easy to end on non-love path initially and get "I like you, but only as a friend".

Imagine that being your first playthrough: Your girlfriend from the start of the game doesn't love you, you're a job for her.
She doesn't come to your rescue of her own will, but she gets sent by council to rescue you.
Likewise for Templars, both of your parents know your girlfriend is a lie, and do nothing.

Finn relationship starts at lowest possible point. It ends up with true emotions, honesty and understanding.
Kaija relationship starts with lies. And it starts with lies even on love path.

I didn’t play the game until after Ceolag redid Chapter 1, so I can’t comment on how things were before. But even now, Kaija gets so much hate and vitriol that you’d think she was the villain, not a love interest.

There has to be more nuance than just “Kaija lied, Finn didn’t.”

Yes, Finn was honest, but she also tried to kill the MC multiple times, and based purely on prejudice. That’s not nothing. I mean, we’re talking about attempted murder. Death is kind of final.

Kaija, on the other hand, was doing her job. That doesn’t totally excuse the deception, but it matters that she wasn’t acting out of hatred or spite. And in the end, she defied her orders and risked everything to save the MC - knowing full well that it would expose her lies and ruin the relationship she had built. In her love route, you can really see that she genuinely cares. That kind of growth and sacrifice should count for something.

Both routes can be meaningful and rewarding. I just don’t get why Finn gets a pass simply because she started from a worse place and ended up better. Kaija’s story is one of redemption too, and just as powerful.

 

[Maviarab]

Sighs...

tried to kill the MC multiple times

Twice...

and based purely on prejudice

He was also about to trespass and was on the border of entering their lands. Had every right to attack.

Kaija, on the other hand, was doing her job

Oh..her job, not because she loves him?. Lemme get this right, so we're on the same page...she was doing...her job?

she defied her orders and risked everything to save the MC

Only on one path...only on one path....but then one could once again argue, if her job is to protect the MC, can't really do that when she ...is...never....there....(which is already the cause of some issues between them if you were paying attention).

In her love route, you can really see that she genuinely cares

And you can really see she doesn't give a fuck not on that path

Now, really, are you really, going to keep saying...you don't understand? A relationship built upon a house of lies (regardless of whether she does love him or not)? Surely you're more intelligent that that hmm?

 

[Elduriel]

Oh..her job, not because she loves him?. Lemme get this right, so we're on the same page...she was doing...her job?

I wonder who else did she do while on the job After all, work comes before anything else.

 

[Maviarab]

I wonder who else did she do while on the job After all, work comes before anything else.

Well, to be fair, Ceo has said no one, ever, completely loyal. But that's Ceo, to us, the playerbase. From the MC's pov (within the story)....it would be an understanble question/thought imo.

 

[nitkonikic]

There has to be more nuance than just “Kaija lied, Finn didn’t.”

Yes, Finn was honest, but she also tried to kill the MC multiple times, and based purely on prejudice. That’s not nothing. I mean, we’re talking about attempted murder. Death is kind of final.

Of course there is, and no one's (almost no one) saying Finn was fine from the start.
But her arc was all done in 1 chapter. By end of it, she was "redeemed" in most of our eyes, through both her actions and dialogue.

I didn’t play the game until after Ceolag redid Chapter 1, so I can’t comment on how things were before. But even now, Kaija gets so much hate and vitriol that you’d think she was the villain, not a love interest.

Not disagreeing, but trust me, you don't know half of it.
By time chapter 2 came out, this thread was 99% Kaija rants.
And I was part of those rants myself.
Stopped somewhere after Chapter 3 got released, mostly because there was nothing more to be said.
Unfortunately, it kind of kept going, and we lost some really nice people and discussions suffered for it

Kaija, on the other hand, was doing her job. That doesn’t totally excuse the deception, but it matters that she wasn’t acting out of hatred or spite.

Uuuuuuuuuhm, that's exactly the problem!
You don't fuck your best friend and pretend to be his lovely girlfriend if you don't love him!
Oh, and this kept on going for years! It wasn't one and done, she literally pretended to love him for years.
What if he proposed for fucks sake? Would she marry him for her job?

Sleeping with someone for a job has a name, and it's not an agent. That's not what I think of Kaija, to clear it out (though I did initially), but that's exactly the fucking problem. She slept with MC because it helped her do her job.

And in the end, she defied her orders and risked everything to save the MC - knowing full well that it would expose her lies and ruin the relationship she had built. In her love route, you can really see that she genuinely cares. That kind of growth and sacrifice should count for something.

Love route, yes.
Friend/Hate route, no.
And that's what many will only see, 1 route.
It's a shame some people skip love route completely because they dislike/hate her, because she gets much, much more character development in that one, and it helps understand her in other route, but at the same time...well, can't blame them.
She doesn't love MC, she didn't break orders, she was literally just doing her job on non-love path.
And again, many will only see that.

Both routes can be meaningful and rewarding. I just don’t get why Finn gets a pass simply because she started from a worse place and ended up better. Kaija’s story is one of redemption too, and just as powerful.

Absolutely agreed. All routes should be experienced (3 actually, Love/Neutral/Hate), because Kaija is an amazing character, but it's also true her character is very, very different between routes.
She does say she's sorry for what she did, but if presented with same situation, she'd do it again (non-love route). Duty first.

Finn gets a pass simply because there's nothing more to do to her.
She has absolutely amazing short arc in Chapter 5, and now she's gone.
Yes, she tried to kill MC multiple times in first 5 minutes of Chapter 5, but after that we had, what, 30-45 minutes of Finn and MC bonding, coming to understanding, developing feelings (if going for it), truly changing how she sees humans.

That's the biggest difference. Finn had development that went from bad to lovely, then she died.
Kaija has 2 routes (ignoring neutral) which make her completely different person. She regrets fuck all in non-love route.

Finn is a beautiful pond that you see for 5 minutes, admire and move on. Kaija is an ocean, with all the wonders, and good and bad. She needs to be seen from both gorgeous surface, to dark deeps.
You can't just point and ask "Why does Finn get a pass, while Kaija doesn't" because they're completely different scenarios.

 

[Maviarab]

Of course there is, and no one's (almost no one) saying Finn was fine from the start.
But her arc was all done in 1 chapter. By end of it, she was "redeemed" in most of our eyes, through both her actions and dialogue.



Not disagreeing, but trust me, you don't know half of it.
By time chapter 2 came out, this thread was 99% Kaija rants.
And I was part of those rants myself.
Stopped somewhere after Chapter 3 got released, mostly because there was nothing more to be said.
Unfortunately, it kind of kept going, and we lost some really nice people and discussions suffered for it



Uuuuuuuuuhm, that's exactly the problem!
You don't fuck your best friend and pretend to be his lovely girlfriend if you don't love him!
Oh, and this kept on going for years! It wasn't one and done, she literally pretended to love him for years.
What if he proposed for fucks sake? Would she marry him for her job?

Sleeping with someone for a job has a name, and it's not an agent. That's not what I think of Kaija, to clear it out (though I did initially), but that's exactly the fucking problem. She slept with MC because it helped her do her job.



Love route, yes.
Friend/Hate route, no.
And that's what many will only see, 1 route.
It's a shame some people skip love route completely because they dislike/hate her, because she gets much, much more character development in that one, and it helps understand her in other route, but at the same time...well, can't blame them.
She doesn't love MC, she didn't break orders, she was literally just doing her job on non-love path.
And again, many will only see that.


Absolutely agreed. All routes should be experienced (3 actually, Love/Neutral/Hate), because Kaija is an amazing character, but it's also true her character is very, very different between routes.
She does say she's sorry for what she did, but if presented with same situation, she'd do it again (non-love route). Duty first.

Finn gets a pass simply because there's nothing more to do to her.
She has absolutely amazing short arc in Chapter 5, and now she's gone.
Yes, she tried to kill MC multiple times in first 5 minutes of Chapter 5, but after that we had, what, 30-45 minutes of Finn and MC bonding, coming to understanding, developing feelings (if going for it), truly changing how she sees humans.

That's the biggest difference. Finn had development that went from bad to lovely, then she died.
Kaija has 2 routes (ignoring neutral) which make her completely different person. She regrets fuck all in non-love route.

Finn is a beautiful pond that you see for 5 minutes, admire and move on. Kaija is an ocean, with all the wonders, and good and bad. She needs to be seen from both gorgeous surface, to dark deeps.
You can't just point and ask "Why does Finn get a pass, while Kaija doesn't" because they're completely different scenarios.

Really great post.

 

[HornyyPussy]

Glad to see nothing ever changes in here...........

 

[Dr.TSoni]

I didn’t play the game until after Ceolag redid Chapter 1, so I can’t comment on how things were before. But even now, Kaija gets so much hate and vitriol that you’d think she was the villain, not a love interest.

There has to be more nuance than just “Kaija lied, Finn didn’t.”

Yes, Finn was honest, but she also tried to kill the MC multiple times, and based purely on prejudice. That’s not nothing. I mean, we’re talking about attempted murder. Death is kind of final.

Kaija, on the other hand, was doing her job. That doesn’t totally excuse the deception, but it matters that she wasn’t acting out of hatred or spite. And in the end, she defied her orders and risked everything to save the MC - knowing full well that it would expose her lies and ruin the relationship she had built. In her love route, you can really see that she genuinely cares. That kind of growth and sacrifice should count for something.

Both routes can be meaningful and rewarding. I just don’t get why Finn gets a pass simply because she started from a worse place and ended up better. Kaija’s story is one of redemption too, and just as powerful.

In the first versions it was extremely easy to unlock the dialogues where Kaija admits that it was just a job, she never loved the MC, she only saved him because she was ordered to and the icing on the cake in chapter two is that it's not such a big deal what she did. Now consider that I'm telling you this as a Kaija fan but the first time I played the bench scene I hated her.

 

[prpa]

Twice...

Still multiple.

Oh..her job, not because she loves him?. Lemme get this right, so we're on the same page...she was doing...her job?

Both can be true.

And you can really see she doesn't give a fuck not on that path

I didn't get that impression.

Now, really, are you really, going to keep saying...you don't understand? A relationship built upon a house of lies (regardless of whether she does love him or not)? Surely you're more intelligent that that hmm?

I'm a forgiving person, and I can't hold grudges for very long or maybe I'm just dumb. Take it however you will.

 

[nitkonikic]

Glad to see nothing ever changes in here...........

I'll stop now, I promise

Final note though:
Think I like 2 points Chapter 1 -> Love in Chapter 6 Kaija the most.

She starts with "only liked MC as a friend, not love" -> "I realized I missed you and love you" in Chapter 6
That one feels most "natural", where she kept doing her job and relationship because she thought she's doing it for the job, but ultimately realized she loves MC.
It just feels right.
In that scenario, she was with MC because she did love him, despite not realizing that at the start. It was only after he left and she lost him, that she realized what he means to her.

 

[Maviarab]

Glad to see nothing ever changes in here...........

Well to be fair 'this time', this is not Kaija hate, this is explaining to someone 'why' there is hate who seemingly can't comprehend why when Finn gets none.

Yes I dislike her, never made any bones about that but unlike some, I don't constantly go on and on and on and on about it. Said my piece long time ago, done with it. I'll also admit, her love path is actually very good and does show you both sides of her character and would tell anyone to play both paths.

 

[RNasc4444]

But even now, Kaija gets so much hate and vitriol that you’d think she was the villain, not a love interest.

But she is a villain. Effectively, no one in this game has caused more damage to the MC than Kaija and his parents. That's a FACT!

Not the Tempars, not the Elves, not the Mercs, not Nightingale in their brawl, not Finnabair in theirs, not the Succubus, not the Hellspawn in general, not the dudes from the bar with Elea and certainly not the hired thugs at the end of this update. I mean so far, if you go and rank the actual threats to the MC, the fucking Hellspawn are by far the lowest one which is just funny

I'll keep waiting for futher development of the plot but like I've said before, up until now the villains of this story are Kaija and the parents. Yes this is a game, not reality, but I can't imagine the type of person you have to be to not fully grasp the severity of the lies the MC was fed all his life. Dude's like a lesser version of Truman Burbank. His whole goddamn life is a lie.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Glad to see nothing ever changes in here...........

You forgot the first rule of this topic

 

[RNasc4444]

I wonder who else did she do while on the job After all, work comes before anything else.

You just know she's been around the block...I mean the Templar pool.
Bet you even Cianán had a go at the ol' gal. Gotta keep the troops happy

 

[prpa]

Makes sense now why Ceolag stopped bothering with this thread.

 

[HornyyPussy]

Makes sense now why Ceolag stopped bothering with this thread.

Most Dev's ends up in that situation unfortunately......

 

[yossa999]

Makes sense now why Ceolag stopped bothering with this thread.

Well, he dropped by to the off-topic thread about a month ago.

 

[Niuul]

Surprised people aren't losing their shit over Kaija kinda-sorta-notreally hinting at screwing around herself when the MC is on the "take a step back" route and then admits to her that he had sex with Finn. She seemingly stops herself before admitting to doing the same thing lol.

 

[Maviarab]

Makes sense now why Ceolag stopped bothering with this thread.

Most Dev's ends up in that situation unfortunately......

He hasn't, just no real reason to be in here plus he's had a time of it this year with personal matters (hence the delay in this release). He was very pissed with the leak last time, thankfully that did not happen for this update nearly as quick.