VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.1] [Ceolag]

[motseer]

Ok, I don't wanted to but in, anyway, I agree with DS (he bribed me with coffee ) I like to hear different views and think everyone should have their own opinion, so not trying to convice anyone here.
What I missed in ename144 s reasoning, or better I don't know if he took it in consideration

Is that the answers on both paths, are subject to her emotions, Kaija is pictured as a characterstrong woman, with high loyality and proud of it.
This alone would make her to answer with attitude, in both cases, she probably percive MC behaviour, as a bit selfish and ungratefull, "Heck, I care about his friendship and protect him, good thing that it helps me in my objective, (we still don't know what was her motivation to join the Hermetic Order of Knight Templars ) and he acts selfish and inmature, he don't cares for me and my feelings, here she percives an attack and reacts acording (Kaija friend path) there fore she has attitude in some cases, you see in the flashbacks that they hafe conflicts in the Relship.(flashback ch 2)
on the good path MC is much softer and open to speak about his feelings, opening so the path for her empathy, and she is able to see his point.
this is far more closer to real reactions in Life and sketches quite good real Relationship dynamics.

Agree 100% However... I could say that in six words... Ceolag has mastered the "Observer Effect".

 

[Maviarab]

Ok, I don't wanted to but in, anyway, I agree with DS (he bribed me with coffee )

Wait..I'm watching radar on F95 and you're telling me that ass has coffee? And didn't offer me one??? I ALWAYS DRINK COFFEE WHILE READING F95! EVERYONE KNOWS THAT!

*Puts Schwartz ring on finger*

 

[Hildegardt]

Sure, our inputs change things, but the way they change feels very artificial, as if Kaija were just parroting back what we expect to hear: "You didn't love me all this time? Well it was all an act and I never cared about you either, so there!"

I've seen a few people in this thread who had trouble getting on Kaija's path, because they couldn't help themselves slapping her ass and going for her sex scene, which are choices that actually lose out on points with her. So at least in this instance Kaija's reaction was unexpected for some people.
There are also three Kaija routes afaik and they depend on points aswell as a final choice. She's either indifferent, friendly or in love depending on points, but at the final choice it's still possible to break up with her even if she's in love.

It's one thing for her attitude towards the MC to change based on our actions, it's another thing when her whole life philosophy hangs on our whim. I think it robs Kaija of the courage of her convictions when her goals are so malleable.

I think you're exaggerating a little. All versions of Kaija stay aligned with the templars no matter our choices. And it's not like her feelings for the PC are constantly changing with every choice. There's only one version of her per playthrough.

 

[Bad Wolf]

Wait..I'm watching radar on F95 and you're telling me that ass has coffee? And didn't offer me one??? I ALWAYS DRINK COFFEE WHILE READING F95! EVERYONE KNOWS THAT!

*Puts Schwartz ring on finger*

Who you callin an ass, ass? That's Mr. Ass to you.

 

[The Offbeat]

Definetly keeping my eyes on this one, what's the update schedule been like until now?

 

[xapican]

Wait..I'm watching radar on F95 and you're telling me that ass has coffee? And didn't offer me one??? I ALWAYS DRINK COFFEE WHILE READING F95! EVERYONE KNOWS THAT!

*Puts Schwartz ring on finger*

that is a lie Straight away!

Spoiler: evidence

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[Dr.TSoni]

To the Dev, there is an inconsistency in the dialogue at the bar about MC being single 6 months ago and that's the reason he was more frequent there when we know that he has been in a pretty long relationship since his 18 if I'm correct.

Not necessarily, when she was 18 the Templars asked her to be the MC's secret bodyguard, their relationship may have arisen later because it made her work easier or because she catch feelings (at the player's discretion).
And if I remember correctly MC says he hasn't been at the bar for a year

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Ok, I don't wanted to but in, anyway, I agree with DS (he bribed me with coffee ) I like to hear different views and think everyone should have their own opinion, so not trying to convice anyone here.
What I missed in ename144 s reasoning, or better I don't know if he took it in consideration

Is that the answers on both paths, are subject to her emotions, Kaija is pictured as a characterstrong woman, with high loyality and proud of it.
This alone would make her to answer with attitude, in both cases, she probably percive MC behaviour, as a bit selfish and ungratefull, "Heck, I care about his friendship and protect him, good thing that it helps me in my objective, (we still don't know what was her motivation to join the Hermetic Order of Knight Templars ) and he acts selfish and inmature, he don't cares for me and my feelings, here she percives an attack and reacts acording (Kaija friend path) there fore she has attitude in some cases, you see in the flashbacks that they hafe conflicts in the Relship.(flashback ch 2)
on the good path MC is much softer and open to speak about his feelings, opening so the path for her empathy, and she is able to see his point.
this is far more closer to real reactions in Life and sketches quite good real Relationship dynamics.

She is definitely a complex character. You raise good points and I agree. Even if you are right that she is responding to the MCs moods, there are still enough things that cause me to dislike her, for example, losing points for playfully smacking her ass.

 

[xapican]

losing points for playfully smacking her ass.

Yess, but I blame Ceolag directly for beeing a "Partypooper" in that one Anyway the problem is with her not with her pussy... and if she behaves too bad I can always ask Joshy to indulge his new discoverd tounge 2 nose kink
edited: ask instead of as

 

[motseer]

...I can always as Joshy to indulge his new discoverd tounge 2 nose kink...

NO. No... No... No... not gonna touch that... not gonna comment... not even gonna make a joke... Nope. No.

 

[e6mill]

can always as Joshy to indulge his new discoverd tounge 2 nose kink

I've heard of eskimo kisses....

 

[Slick Bean]

Here they are already in bed ... MC is not even allowed to caress her glorious glutes, let alone her shiny nose.

I've heard of eskimo kisses....
View attachment 3167580

 

[Slick Bean]

You monster!!!!!

Not true. I had sex regularly with someone for almost 2 years and I never developed feelings for them. We were friends, sure. But other than that, no.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Well earned. Here ya go!
View attachment 3167263

I can switch sides for a good cup of tea.

 

[ThorinKing]

Not true. I had sex regularly with someone for almost 2 years and I never developed feelings for them. We were friends, sure. But other than that, no.

Not everyone is a sociopath, though.

 

[nitkonikic]

I think Ceolag has done a really good job with Kaija
Love or hate her she is an interesting character

This is the opinion I agree with most.
Unlike Joshy, I absolutely hate her.

And in my opinion, that is perfect. He loves her and has arguments why. I hate her and have arguments why.

Kaija is brilliant character. She makes players experience emotions, good or bad.

And that's why I love this VN.
Ceolag sir, you've so far made a brilliant game with brilliant characters.

 

[ename144]

Ok, I don't wanted to but in, anyway, I agree with DS (he bribed me with coffee ) I like to hear different views and think everyone should have their own opinion, so not trying to convice anyone here.
What I missed in ename144 s reasoning, or better I don't know if he took it in consideration

Is that the answers on both paths, are subject to her emotions, Kaija is pictured as a characterstrong woman, with high loyality and proud of it.
This alone would make her to answer with attitude, in both cases, she probably percive MC behaviour, as a bit selfish and ungratefull, "Heck, I care about his friendship and protect him, good thing that it helps me in my objective, (we still don't know what was her motivation to join the Hermetic Order of Knight Templars ) and he acts selfish and inmature, he don't cares for me and my feelings, here she percives an attack and reacts acording (Kaija friend path) there fore she has attitude in some cases, you see in the flashbacks that they hafe conflicts in the Relship.(flashback ch 2)
on the good path MC is much softer and open to speak about his feelings, opening so the path for her empathy, and she is able to see his point.
this is far more closer to real reactions in Life and sketches quite good real Relationship dynamics.

I understand why Kaija would view the MC differently based on our choices; the mechanics are wonky because she needs to have adopted her view in the game's backstory rather than after we have a chance to take actions, but that's not the problem here. The problem - the fundamental issue with the whole setup I suspect - is that Kaija doesn't act as the MC's friend if she fails to form a strong emotional bond with the MC, she acts as his *girl*friend regardless of her feelings about him. That is no small distinction. Saying that Kaija's consistent because she's always willing to sleep with a target if it makes her job marginally easier and it's only her attitude towards the MC in particular that changes based on our actions is a cure that's worse than the disease. Better to accept that we get a different version of Kaija based on our early inputs - IMHO, obviously.

I wonder if the game would have been better off if just asked us flat out what we wanted our relationship status to be (happy relationship / strained relationship / no relationship) at the start of the game? It would be sort of like Shepard's origin in Mass Effect: "You've selected the Loving Girlfriend background: you get +2 Kaija points and a joint lease agreement for your apartment!" That way we wouldn't have to delay certain details until the player has made some decisions because the situation would already be defined. Our initial interactions with Kaija could be written from the keel out knowing what her relationship with the MC is; obviously where it goes from there would still vary with our subsequent choices.

It's not as immersive as what we got, but it also doesn't blur the line between Doyalist and Watsonian mechanics. It's a moot point now, but it's food for thought if the opportunity ever comes up again.

I've seen a few people in this thread who had trouble getting on Kaija's path, because they couldn't help themselves slapping her ass and going for her sex scene, which are choices that actually lose out on points with her. So at least in this instance Kaija's reaction was unexpected for some people.

I suppose that's true.

I think you're exaggerating a little. All versions of Kaija stay aligned with the templars no matter our choices. And it's not like her feelings for the PC are constantly changing with every choice. There's only one version of her per playthrough.

Sort of. She's quite willing to risk her career with the Templars to save the MC if she loves him so I'm not sure how consistent her devotion is in that case. Then again, there's no reason the Templars wouldn't order her to rescue the MC specifically because she loves him either, so the whole situation only exists to demonstrate her loyalty. <sigh> This sort of circular logic is precisely why I hate Kaija's retroactive backstory. It's pointless to analyze how a character acts in a given situation when both the character and the situation are driven by non-diegetic factors.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

I understand why Kaija would view the MC differently based on our choices; the mechanics are wonky because she needs to have adopted her view in the game's backstory rather than after we have a chance to take actions, but that's not the problem here. The problem - the fundamental issue with the whole setup I suspect - is that Kaija doesn't act as the MC's friend if she fails to form a strong emotional bond with the MC, she acts as his *girl*friend regardless of her feelings about him. That is no small distinction. Saying that Kaija's consistent because she's always willing to sleep with a target if it makes her job marginally easier and it's only her attitude towards the MC in particular that changes based on our actions is a cure that's worse than the disease. Better to accept that we get a different version of Kaija based on our early inputs - IMHO, obviously.

I wonder if the game would have been better off if just asked us flat out what we wanted our relationship status to be (happy relationship / strained relationship / no relationship) at the start of the game? It would be sort of like Shepard's origin in Mass Effect: "You've selected the Loving Girlfriend background: you get +2 Kaija points and a joint lease agreement for your apartment!" That way we wouldn't have to delay certain details until the player has made some decisions because the situation would already be defined. Our initial interactions with Kaija could be written from the keel out knowing what her relationship with the MC is; obviously where it goes from there would still vary with our subsequent choices.

It's not as immersive as what we got, but it also doesn't blur the line between Doyalist and Watsonian mechanics. It's a moot point now, but it's food for thought if the opportunity ever comes up again.



I suppose that's true.


Sort of. She's quite willing to risk her career with the Templars to save the MC if she loves him so I'm not sure how consistent her devotion is in that case. Then again, there's no reason the Templars wouldn't order her to rescue the MC specifically because she loves him either, so the whole situation only exists to demonstrate her loyalty. <sigh> This sort of circular logic is precisely why I hate Kaija's retroactive backstory. It's pointless to analyze how a character acts in a given situation when both the character and the situation are driven by non-diegetic factors.

You raise some good points. I'm not saying you're wrong either. I think her view of the relationship is established in the beginning. Not clearly but its there. the fact you lose points with her with the slap and the sex scene tell us where her mind is at in the relationship. She has sex because she thinks she has too. Hence you lose points for it. I think that shows she isn't invested in the relationship emotionally and one of the reasons I don't like her. She is playing a role with him and for me, her 'love' confessions are suspect. I'm an untrusting bastard when it comes to the things that women's say in relationships. If there are no actions to back it up then there is the door.

 

[Maviarab]

You raise some good points. I'm not saying you're wrong either. I think her view of the relationship is established in the beginning. Not clearly but its there. the fact you lose points with her with the slap and the sex scene tell us where her mind is at in the relationship. She has sex because she thinks she has too. Hence you lose points for it. I think that shows she isn't invested in the relationship emotionally and one of the reasons I don't like her. She is playing a role with him and for me, her 'love' confessions are suspect. I'm an untrusting bastard when it comes to the things that women's say in relationships. If there are no actions to back it up then there is the door.

This. Exactly this. Also the reason I thibnk the dev set it up that way.

Again to all those not seeing it, she doesn't sleep with folk because of her job blah blah....her ONLY job is to protect the MC. She was groomed to do that job by the Templars. She only does other 'missions' when and as required by her emplyers. How can people keep missing this ename144
.

Secondly, even on the love path...the loyal GF path...the forgive her path...she STILL tells you the Templars come first in the 'heated discussion' forced upon us by the old bitch. This in its very self...is incredibly telling. Sure, she indoctrinated...and she falters when you throw that back at her....but it's still there, regardless of misguided loyalty or anything else. They...come...first.

Which leads me personally....onto the whole fuck them all route. Silly old bitch 'forcing' me to talk to her? Umm..scuse me? Fuck you love...I don't have to do fuck all for you, your cult or any other fucker and neither do I owe you anything and neither are you my boss. I'm outta here.

 

[xapican]

Umm..scuse me? Fuck you love...

Good Morning my friend
Not a bad idea at all... Fucking to save the humanity ! yayyyy !