VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.1] [Ceolag]

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

I am not disagreeing with you per se, but I do think redemption CAN be found on love path.
Granted, I would never, ever, be able to do it myself, but can somewhat see why others can.

She is genuinely sorry shit happened the way it did. She did enter relationship for all the wrong reason, she did lie and manipulate MC, she is absolutely horrible person...but in the end, her feelings for MC are genuine.

That's why shower scene in chapter 2 is very important. It's not Kaija lying to MC, it's Kaija being sad on her own.
Ceolag placing that scene there is perfect, it shows the effect it has on her, no words, just sad scene.
She knows what she's done and feels regret over it. She lost something that means a lot to her. Someone that means a lot to her.

I understand what you say but having genuine feelings, being sad how it turned out won't undo what she had done. No redemption for her. I am guessing she has devastating backstory how she joined the Templars. Most likely it's about her family. It can even make sense, how she became a cult devotee. I may even feel sad for her what she has been through but no, no redemption no forgiveness. When the time comes and she feel the knife that she used backstabbing MC on her back, that will be the closure for MC. So I understand but I don't agree with you.

As official member of "fuck Kaija" club, I am in no way defending her, just explaining why I think people might like her.

Sounds like you are slacking ngl.

I am usually quite forgiving on "secret life" stuff, just find this specific scenario doesn't play well with my feelings and feels like betrayal of the worst kind. She's checked off every box on "don't do in relationship" bingo card.
Everything bad that happens is on her.

I am not forgiving person generally. When the time comes and people ask forgiveness, when they explained why they did it. I usually say I do understand why they did it but they don't have a place in my life. Life is too short to be forgiving or holding grudge. Let it go but never forgive is my mindset on these situation.

It reminds me a few other games tbh. I.e. Cassie from Artemis, she probably had her reasons why she betrayed MC but there can't be redemption for her. Or Steph from Leap of Faith, she had her reasons I do understand I wish her happy life, away from MC. Or Ana from Acting Lessons, she betrayed MC. She was right in her mind but that does not make what she did acceptable. No redemption for her too. Or Marie from Triple Ex. She did what she did to save MC's life in her mind but that broke MC. Not only her but entire family betrayed MC. No redemption for them either. All betrayed, some hurt more than others and all of them had their reasons but if they choose to betray with whatever their reason, that is the end of it.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

I am not disagreeing with you per se, but I do think redemption CAN be found on love path.
Granted, I would never, ever, be able to do it myself, but can somewhat see why others can.

She is genuinely sorry shit happened the way it did. She did enter relationship for all the wrong reason, she did lie and manipulate MC, she is absolutely horrible person...but in the end, her feelings for MC are genuine.

That's why shower scene in chapter 2 is very important. It's not Kaija lying to MC, it's Kaija being sad on her own.
Ceolag placing that scene there is perfect, it shows the effect it has on her, no words, just sad scene.
She knows what she's done and feels regret over it. She lost something that means a lot to her. Someone that means a lot to her.

As official member of "fuck Kaija" club, I am in no way defending her, just explaining why I think people might like her.

I am usually quite forgiving on "secret life" stuff, just find this specific scenario doesn't play well with my feelings and feels like betrayal of the worst kind. She's checked off every box on "don't do in relationship" bingo card.
Everything bad that happens is on her.

Definitely agree. I play the Kaija love path because I think she can be redeemed. I hate what her and the parents did. She was young, she has the chance to sort out her life in the story ahead and redeem herself. Whether I can be persuaded enough to change my dislike for her to positive feelings remains to be seen. Although, I don't hate her but I don't like her either. I have had a change of heart over characters in VNs before (for example Steph in Leap of Faith), so I am open to changing my mind about Kaija. I think Kaija's character is interesting enough to play all her paths.

 

[Bad Wolf]

I play the Kaija love path because I think she can be redeemed.

I guess you also think the succubus who tried to kill you can be redeemed also?

 

[ename144]

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Hey everyone,

Another week passed and Easter was the busy and chaotic time I expected. It's good that it's behind us now. ;-)
Thanks to the 4-day weekend (Friday and Monday were days off here), I expected to get lower numbers done this week (days off usually mean days spent with the family).
Well... I'd say the numbers aren't exactly lower than usual.

I've almost finished my next internal test version and am just waiting for the pc to render the last several images.
Everything else is ready. So it's safe to say I did catch up with the renders according to my plan.
Next week will be mostly dedicated to setting up several environments that I need for the rest of Chapter 5.
Additionally, more writing and squeezing in renders where possible, of course.

Moving on to the numbers of this week:
120 new static renders for a total of 1156
0 new animations :-(
221 new lines in the script file for a total of 3116

Clearly lower numbers than usual on the render-side...

Have a nice weekend, guys.

Cheers,
Ceolag

Ceolag gave us the raw numbers, but it was another irregular week so we need to interpolate a bit. 120 statics, 0 animations and 221 line over 8 days works out to roughly 105 statics, 0.0 animations and 190 lines per standard week. Overall, the average now stands at ~86 statics, 2.6 animations, and 230 lines per week since work on Chapter 5 officially began. Here are the charts:

Spoiler: Charts - Week 14 (ish)

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It does seem like a productive week given the holiday. Not much to say other than that; numbers continue to accumulate, but there's obviously a ways to go.

 

[Elduriel]

I guess you also think the succubus who tried to kill you can be redeemed also?

 

[Dessolos]

I guess you also think the succubus who tried to kill you can be redeemed also?

all comes down to context for me combined with my personality im unable to have a harsh view or reaction towards people. In this scenario hell no she did that shit on purpose she is a killer. But under a certain context or scenario I would think she could be redeemed for sure.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Definitely agree. I play the Kaija love path because I think she can be redeemed. I hate what her and the parents did. She was young, she has the chance to sort out her life in the story ahead and redeem herself. Whether I can be persuaded enough to change my dislike for her to positive feelings remains to be seen. Although, I don't hate her but I don't like her either.

As official member of "fuck Kaija" club, I am in no way defending her, just explaining why I think people might like her.

Spoiler: Our men are running from the battlefield! Shameful display!

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[Bad Wolf]

all comes down to context for me combined with my personality im unable to have a harsh view or reaction towards people. In this scenario hell no she did that shit on purpose she is a killer. But under a certain context or scenario I would think she could be redeemed for sure.

How do you know though? Maybe she was just unable to control her emotions and she just momentarily went insane and lashed out tryin to feed to help herself?

 

[Maviarab]

I guess you also think the succubus who tried to kill you can be redeemed also?

She was just confused and misunderstood

 

[Dessolos]

How do you know though? Maybe she was just unable to control her emotions and she just momentarily went insane and lashed out tryin to feed to help herself?
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haha that was one of scenario's that ran through my head that she could be redeemed as I was tying my reply

 

[Leongen43]

I guess you also think the succubus who tried to kill you can be redeemed also?

If you are married, if you can believe in Kaija's redemption, all the times my wife used me as a laboratory RAT to try her magic recipes that I saw on the Internet, I love my wife but just in case my will is already made

Spoiler

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[Avaron1974]

How do you know though? Maybe she was just unable to control her emotions and she just momentarily went insane and lashed out tryin to feed to help herself?
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She was already being hunted so did something to put her on their radar not to mention the later conversation with the Elves about demons being seen again after the war they had with them to push them back.

So demons are on the move, she was there to kill.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

How do you know though? Maybe she was just unable to control her emotions and she just momentarily went insane and lashed out tryin to feed to help herself?

She is actually more redeemable than Kaija. Hunting is in her nature. I'd never wrong a lion for hunting a gazelle, sure it's a sad scene but that how nature works. As for Erika too. Is being a backstabbing bitch is in Kaija's blood? Actually yeah, so they are more or less same.

 

[Bad Wolf]

haha that was one of scenario's that ran through my head that she could be redeemed as I was tying my reply

Well, it's actually a moot point. As the white girl(double entendre is intended here) caught up to her and ended any redemption arc that may have been feasibly argued.

She was already being hunted so did something to put her on their radar not to mention the later conversation with the Elves about demons being seen again after the war they had with them to push them back.

So demons are on the move, she was there to kill.

Maybe, maybe not. We'll never know though. But I was just bein facetious and continuin my point about Kaija in a response to Grumpy Old Aussie

 

[ename144]

Few things to say about Kaija.
What was the end goal in her mind though?
What if MC wanted marriage/children?
What if she actually fell in love with someone?

The reason why I find her irredeemable on "friend" path is because I can't stop thinking of above.
Naturally, love and "friend" path make Kaija a completely different person, and love path would be (somewhat) possible to answer by simple: "They go for it and she comes clean".

"Friend" path just baffles me.
How did she think it would end? There is simply no long-term scenario where it doesn't come crashing and burning down worse than Hindenburg.
She leaves scorched earth behind, while hoping to have trust from the person whose life she destroyed?
If MC develops genuine feelings based on complete lie, what then?

For role-playing sake, think how utterly devastated MC in love with Kaija would be on 0 points chapter 1 run.
Just think about it for a minute. Here's a guy, in love with his childhood friend, she returned his feelings, he's happy...then it turns out all of that is a lie. She doesn't love him. She was with him only because it's her job.

Again, I am talking low-points, still love her option taken scenario.

Love path gives completely different story, and one where I can see why people would be willing to forgive and forget. She suffers and genuinely feels sorry for what she did.
Bench scene is day and night difference. Shower scene (one with achievement) shows how messed up she gets.
Even on this one, though, I have to ask similar questions. How did she think it will end up?
She entered relationship for all the wrong reasons. That sucks. Her actions after she developed feelings for MC change the narrative completely though, and redemption feels deserved.
Not that I'm going to pursue romance on any of the paths, but I am happily following high-points route to see her development there.

Kaija is such an amazing character, and just like an amazing movie/tv show villain, I love everything that happens around her.

This does raise one of the real questions though: if the MC has 0 points with Kaija, did he actually love her? I'm inclined to think not. The two clearly weren't on the same page in terms of how they like being treated and aren't especially forgiving of the others' habits. Given the retroactive backstory at play, it seems likely the MC's attitude towards Kaija was as tepid as her attitude towards him.

Obviously this is problematic since WE are the MC and just because we picked an action doesn't necessarily mean we buy into the way the game interprets that action (especially early on when we're still getting the lay of the land). But that's water under the bridge at this point.

It reminds me a few other games tbh. I.e. Cassie from Artemis, she probably had her reasons why she betrayed MC but there can't be redemption for her. Or Steph from Leap of Faith, she had her reasons I do understand I wish her happy life, away from MC. Or Ana from Acting Lessons, she betrayed MC. She was right in her mind but that does not make what she did acceptable. No redemption for her too. Or Marie from Triple Ex. She did what she did to save MC's life in her mind but that broke MC. Not only her but entire family betrayed MC. No redemption for them either. All betrayed, some hurt more than others and all of them had their reasons but if they choose to betray with whatever their reason, that is the end of it.

Steph and Ana are good comparisons to Kaija, but Cassandra is not. There's a big difference between taking advantage of someone and actively trying to destroy them. Cassandra not only deceived her MC, she deliberately stole his life's work and career opportunity, leaving with nothing - to the point he nearly killed himself. Then, when she learned he was trying to rebuild his life, she badmouthed him to prospective employers just for fun.

That's a level of malice even the MC's parents in this game can't match.

How do you know though? Maybe she was just unable to control her emotions and she just momentarily went insane and lashed out tryin to feed to help herself?
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Gosh, you're right I hadn't considered it from that angle before. I guess I'll have to reevaluate the succubus' actions in light of the full history between her and the MC, mindful of the mitigating factors that might apply.

Oh wait, that's right, her trying to kill the MC was their entire history together. Never mind. Back to the stake with her!

 

[fishbrain]

Medb is a Elfen whore, so what is wrong with that ?

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Steph and Ana are good comparisons to Kaija, but Cassandra is not. There's a big difference between taking advantage of someone and actively trying to destroy them. Cassandra not only deceived her MC, she deliberately stole his life's work and career opportunity, leaving with nothing - to the point he nearly killed himself. Then, when she learned he was trying to rebuild his life, she badmouthed him to prospective employers just for fun.

I was comparing them on betrayal front. I think Steph is much better than others too. Cassandra had her reasons, she even thought she was right. Probably same as Kaija she had problems with her family which lay the path.

That's a level of malice even the MC's parents in this game can't match.

I am not entirely sure about this. His mother tried to hide things even after everything revealed. MC has every right to despise Templars but when he makes a joke on Eric, she tried to shut MC up. She even blamed MC(using the verb loosely here) for Paul's death. If they somehow convinced to push MC to near suicide, they'd do it in a heatbeat.

 

[Bad Wolf]

Oh wait, that's right, her trying to kill the MC was their entire history together. Never mind. Back to the stake with her!

Actually, no. It wasn't. She tried to seduce him first. She was already in a very bad emotional state and when he refused her, she became confused and attacked him.

 

[Dessolos]

Actually, no. It wasn't. She tried to seduce him first. She was already in a very bad emotional state and when he refused her, she became confused and attacked him.

I didn't refuse her on mine I want to see what some hot succubus sex was like

 

[Bad Wolf]

I didn't refuse her on mine I want to see what some hot succubus sex was like

Oh! So, in her opinion you were takin advantage of her scared and confused state. Of course she tried to kill you!