VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[pitao]

Well, I think there is no siding with Templars or Alfars, more to unite them against the 3rd party, both admited that they are to weak for an open war.
Also another variable is Fiona or Elea, I doubt that both are alone and with no backup, Elea manages a lot of Information about mystical things, Fiona is somehow also interwined with all this, for now there are to many unkown variables to see where this is going.
No I didn't like the lie neither of Kaija nor from the Parents, but is it really that horrendous ? being understanding doesn't mean being naive or guilible.

Yeah doesn't seem so far any variable to side with Templars or Alfars or neutral even though there is a choice for it when chatting with Nightingale but don't think it adds any variable.
I made 5 saves/playthroughs so far 3 are for Fiona/Elea/Kaija paths and on those I didnt burn bridges and wasn't confrontational to the Parents. Then 2 other saves for "side girls" (maybe later go with Medb path on 1 of them also) one for Kari-Helen?-Linnae and the other for Anissa-Kate and in both I was confrontational to the parents but only burned bridges in the 2nd. Well I got all the achievements, even the hidden ones so I guess I got all the important content. My favorite LI so far no doubt is Fiona, can't wait to know more about this mysterious girl hehe.

No one likes to being lied about important things in your life and in family life specially but dunno if is because my age, near 50 yo, I understand the point of view from the Parents. 30 years ago I wouldn't be so much understanding but life teaches you that sometimes you have to lie to protect your loved ones even if the result is getting a bit of hate/rage from them, it is a small price to pay if means getting them safe, nothing is ever all black and white, there is always plenty of gray areas in life.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Well, I think there is no siding with Templars or Alfars, more to unite them against the 3rd party, both admited that they are to weak for an open war.
Also another variable is Fiona or Elea, I doubt that both are alone and with no backup, Elea manages a lot of Information about mystical things, Fiona is somehow also interwined with all this, for now there are to many unkown variables to see where this is going.
No I didn't like the lie neither of Kaija nor from the Parents, but is it really that horrendous ? being understanding doesn't mean being naive or guilible.

It depends on the attitude for me. Were they doing it out of a mistaken ideal of protection or because they don't respect you? Considering the MCs age and they did nothing to stop the relationship with Kaija, I don't think they respect the MC. Hence why half my saves I burnt bridges. Although, I did think Ceolag may provide an opportunity to mend bridges later, but apparently not. So maybe burning bridges is an oops moment. Still the reasons and actions matter IMO. I'd want some space and more explanation of their actions around the Kaija relationship.

 

[Quetzzz]

So maybe burning bridges is an oops moment.

Ceo said another talk with the family is planned for those who didn't burn bridges, with a 2nd opportunity to burn them. Since nobody is safe, I wouldn't be surprised if Robert will die, making reconciliation impossible.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Ceo said another talk with the family is planned for those who didn't burn bridges, with a 2nd opportunity to burn them. Since nobody is safe, I wouldn't be surprised if Robert will die, making reconciliation impossible.

Yeah Ceolag said to me as well, there would be more to come with the family if you didn't burn bridges. I'm probably a bit sensitive to it since my family has kept things from me several times that I should have known about. I relate to the MC a lot here, probably too much

But its only a game.

 

[Dessolos]

It depends on the attitude for me. Were they doing it out of a mistaken ideal of protection or because they don't respect you? Considering the MCs age and they did nothing to stop the relationship with Kaija, I don't think they respect the MC. Hence why half my saves I burnt bridges. Although, I did think Ceolag may provide an opportunity to mend bridges later, but apparently not. So maybe burning bridges is an oops moment. Still the reasons and actions matter IMO. I'd want some space and more explanation of their actions around the Kaija relationship.

yeah for me only the father gets a little bit less negative opinion from me on the Kaija love path only since he did try to help Kaija from being forced into the relationship. Otherwise im a bit mixed I don't hate them as much as most others on this thread. The conversation felt like well you caught me might as well confess while not acting like they did anything wrong. Even if I can understand their reasoning behind it and personally not upset by their lies, their attitude makes them feel unremorseful for hiding the truth. I feel like I cant trust them to tell 100% of the truth like they are always going to be untruthful or hiding something. Especially because I think they are always going to have their guard up like they are used to playing the political game with the other leadership that is the only thing they know how to do and not how to be parents / a family. Which is the only reason my other saves gonna burn bridges.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

yeah for me only the father gets a little bit less negative opinion from me on the Kaija love path only since he did try to help Kaija from being forced into the relationship. Otherwise im a bit mixed I don't hate them as much as most others on this thread. The conversation felt like well you caught me might as well confess while not acting like they did anything wrong. Even if I can understand their reasoning behind it and personally not upset by their lies, their attitude makes them feel unremorseful for hiding the truth. I feel like I cant trust them to tell 100% of the truth like they are always going to be untruthful or hiding something. Especially because I think they are always going to have their guard up like they are used to playing the political game with the other leadership that is the only thing they know how to do and not how to be parents / a family. Which is the only reason my other saves gonna burn bridges.

I don't hate them either, I just think there is a level of disrespect my MC shouldn't need to tolerate especially from the mother. As you said the father did try to do something, not near enough, but something at least. The mother just is unremorseful and quite arrogant about it in ch1 I thought. She acts as though she is resentful of having to be a mother and pull back from the Templars. That is how it comes across to me anyway. I could be reading too much in to it after my own experiences maybe.

 

[Dessolos]

I don't hate them either, I just think there is a level of disrespect my MC shouldn't need to tolerate especially from the mother. As you said the father did try to do something, not near enough, but something at least. The mother just is unremorseful and quite arrogant about it in ch1 I thought. She acts as though she is resentful of having to be a mother and pull back from the Templars. That is how it comes across to me anyway. I could be reading too much in to it after my own experiences maybe.

honestly I can't put my finger on it but the mother always came across worst to me than the father even still after finally having a talk with the father after getting him back.

 

[Quetzzz]

The mother just is unremorseful and quite arrogant about it in ch1 I thought.

I didn't pick up arrogance from her, but she did leave all the heavy lifting to others. With the history she had with the Templars she knew perfectly well what she could tell her children, but she let Kaija do the talking. Same for the morning after.
Then, on route to the exchange, she gets very friendly and compliant toward Jess, which felt manipulative to me.

 

[nitkonikic]

As for the Family, are the lies horrendous no, but that doesn't make i any better.
They still lied to you your whole life, neither did they prepare the MC/Jess for anything...

I have to disagree with both of you there.
Their lies ARE horrendous.

And I am not talking about not telling MC about templars, that part, believe it or not, I am fine with.
Secret organisation and trying to keep their son out of it? Sure, it sucks, but that part I can understand, and heck, even support to a point (which was crossed, but different topic) .

I am bitter as fuck about their involvement with whole Kaija matter. That alone is burned bridges worthy to me.
Their son was in fake relationship with member of their order, a non-love relationship, and they not only didn't stop it, but were a-ok with it.
It was arranged marriage, except they sold their son without telling him.

If they only tried telling Kaija (non-love paths) to drop it, to stop it, because it will eventually break theirs sons heart, I could forgive. Not forget, breach is there, but it can be mended with enough time (meaning years).
But they didn't. They chose Templars, they chose their job, they chose Kaija.
Their son was something that needed to be handled, and offloading him to Kaija was easiest option so they let it be.

That is insane.
I've said it over and over and will say it again: This would fuck MCs love life for years, potentially for life, knowing there is organization willing to put their members in his bed to keep an eye on him.
Just think about it, any single girl he meets from that point on could be another templar on a mission.
I doubt Kaija was first female given that order. Why not try again with another girl?

I am perfectly fine, no, not just fine, happy, if burning bridges in this episode means no more family in the future.
They were worse than shit parents and MC will only be able to start breathing and living a proper life once they are out of the picture.
Would he still look over his shoulder from time to time, worried there is Templar spy somewhere around? Yes. But would it be preferable to this family? Yes again.

Family rant over and my apologies for it

Minor edit: That's also what makes Finnabair such a perfect LI. There were no lies there, everything that happened happened because it was honest.
Honest hatred, honest conversations, honest feelings. It was wholesome and something MC genuinely needed.

 

[Yokanzo]

That actually makes me see the whole Templar thing in another light. The whole Kaija situation basically played out like one of those pranks people would play on less popular kids in school. Basically get one of the hot girls they know to invite a dude out to a date only to surprise him and laugh at him while calling him a loser or whatever. Only this time it’s a long con where your childhood friend and the person you love most turned out to have started the entire thing on false pretences. That's some seriously intense emotional trauma.

I think the problem with the game here is we didn’t really know Katja well enough despite the game’s biggest efforts to introduce her to us and clarify the nature of the relationship. I never felt the connection and even thought about her as the gf character you jettison for the other love interests.
Kaija is new (to us) so it makes the history between the characters easy to forgive and forget because we didn’t live it. The only way anyone would understand is if they experienced lies and betrayal in their own personal lives. Otherwise the game would have to spend an hour on all the flashbacks for how the protagonist and Kaija came to be.

I mean for me it seems really cool to have a badass girlfriend who is loyal to you unconditionally and chooses you over her duty which she prizes more than anything else. The Templar organization also seems really cool as a means to protect humanity from whatever worse shit is out there besides the elves.
It’s just too bad the character’s personal relationship with them is so fucked.

In that sense he has more in common with Fiona than first apparent. Would be interesting to find out if she’s an elf or something.

 

[Malicre]

I have to disagree with both of you there.
Their lies ARE horrendous.

And I am not talking about not telling MC about templars, that part, believe it or not, I am fine with.
Secret organisation and trying to keep their son out of it? Sure, it sucks, but that part I can understand, and heck, even support to a point (which was crossed, but different topic) .

I am bitter as fuck about their involvement with whole Kaija matter. That alone is burned bridges worthy to me.
Their son was in fake relationship with member of their order, a non-love relationship, and they not only didn't stop it, but were a-ok with it.
It was arranged marriage, except they sold their son without telling him.

If they only tried telling Kaija (non-love paths) to drop it, to stop it, because it will eventually break theirs sons heart, I could forgive. Not forget, breach is there, but it can be mended with enough time (meaning years).
But they didn't. They chose Templars, they chose their job, they chose Kaija.
Their son was something that needed to be handled, and offloading him to Kaija was easiest option so they let it be.

That is insane.
I've said it over and over and will say it again: This would fuck MCs love life for years, potentially for life, knowing there is organization willing to put their members in his bed to keep an eye on him.
Just think about it, any single girl he meets from that point on could be another templar on a mission.
I doubt Kaija was first female given that order. Why not try again with another girl?

I am perfectly fine, no, not just fine, happy, if burning bridges in this episode means no more family in the future.
They were worse than shit parents and MC will only be able to start breathing and living a proper life once they are out of the picture.
Would he still look over his shoulder from time to time, worried there is Templar spy somewhere around? Yes. But would it be preferable to this family? Yes again.

Family rant over and my apologies for it

Minor edit: That's also what makes Finnabair such a perfect LI. There were no lies there, everything that happened happened because it was honest.
Honest hatred, honest conversations, honest feelings. It was wholesome and something MC genuinely needed.

And while all of this was happening Kaija still didn't say shit. I can actually forgive the parents more then her, at least their reasoning is simple, to keep their kids safe where as Kaija's lie was made out of loyalty to the templars and your family, not you and if the situation didn't arise she would still be lying to you.

She's literally on my shit list, ranks right down there with Steph from LoF who's another character who thought she was doing the right thing for the wrong reason.

 

[PaxHadrian17]

Well, I think there is no siding with Templars or Alfars, more to unite them against the 3rd party, both admited that they are to weak for an open war.
Also another variable is Fiona or Elea, I doubt that both are alone and with no backup, Elea manages a lot of Information about mystical things, Fiona is somehow also interwined with all this, for now there are to many unkown variables to see where this is going.
No I didn't like the lie neither of Kaija nor from the Parents, but is it really that horrendous ? being understanding doesn't mean being naive or guilible.

The Kaija choice creates stark route contrasts.

_______________________

Spoiler: High Kaija Love Points

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Spoiler: Very low Kaija love points

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I have to give major props to Ceo for creating such dramatically different outcomes based on those choices.

I'm curious to see what happens in the future.

Do the parents have the governing board cover for the MC with his job on both paths or, for those who burned their bridges, does the MC get in hot water and almost lose his job because the parents start to show him what burning the bridges really looks like?

Does the way Finnabair dies get influenced by the MC's family choices - a bitter father who lost control of his only son strikes out at those he chooses to blame versus Finnabair - a sad casualty of a needless skirmish?

How will the Grandmaster of the Templars respond if the Templars are actually responsible for Finnabair's death - especially if she was murdered under a flag of parley - for example?

What will Fiona's response be to the two most divergent family choices the MC can make and what new details will she share in turn?

I can see significant replayability in the next chapter as I try the different paths, not just of the family choices but of the primary LI choices as well.

It is going to be a wild ride, and each new chapter will be Very hard to wait for!

Cheers!!

 

[Raziel_8]

No one likes to being lied about important things in your life and in family life specially but dunno if is because my age, near 50 yo, I understand the point of view from the Parents. 30 years ago I wouldn't be so much understanding but life teaches you that sometimes you have to lie to protect your loved ones even if the result is getting a bit of hate/rage from them, it is a small price to pay if means getting them safe, nothing is ever all black and white, there is always plenty of gray areas in life.

Except their lies didn't protect them from any danger, it just let them unprepared. This wasn't about letting them join the templars and the battles, but simply about the truth.
The danger for the MC/Jess was always there, simply because the parents are both templars, as well as Kaija and the father the head honcho of them, as well as them having powerful enemies.

As for their reasons, i just can't take them seriusly.
So Linnea had a break with her family because they couldn't life with her dangerous line of work and she choose the templars - it's not always better to tell the truth...i mean, seriously
Not the right time, ever, sister younger, important moments, you got a job (years ago)...
-i mean, by that point they just blantly search for every excuse possible

 

[nitkonikic]

What will Fiona's response be to the two most divergent family choices the MC can make and what new details will she share in turn?

Cheers!!

Funnily enough, I see Fiona as potentially being most understanding of burned bridges.
Her own history with her family could make her understand the need to move on from lies, betrayal and emotional damage MC experienced from his parents.

Elea strikes me as someone that would absolutely be forgiving, Medb values family highly (seen through adopted brother discussion, something she kept valuing for hundreds of years) and Kaija is a templar, so she'll follow whatever was the order.

 

[Malicre]

#RelationshipAdvice

 

[Dr.TSoni]

-i mean, by that point they just blantly search for every excuse possible

I believe they don't want this life for their children, so any excuse is a good one to procrastinate

 

[Raziel_8]

I believe they don't want this life for their children, so any excuse is a good one to procrastinate

On that i agree.

 

[Dessolos]

And while all of this was happening Kaija still didn't say shit. I can actually forgive the parents more then her, at least their reasoning is simple, to keep their kids safe where as Kaija's lie was made out of loyalty to the templars and your family, not you and if the situation didn't arise she would still be lying to you.

She's literally on my shit list, ranks right down there with Steph from LoF who's another character who thought she was doing the right thing for the wrong reason.

See I blame the parents more than Kaija now this might be just me and I don't have any evidence but a gut feeling. I honestly kind of got the impression Kaija and other templars that grew up and trained with them from a young age were most likely brainwashed to some extent , almost like they were a cult. Otherwise it's hard for me to understand the loyalty someone like Kaija would have to the templars. Plus makes it easier for me to understand why she would keep the lies up even on the love path tho tbh I don't have a problem with her lies cause with the context I'm able to understand and forgive that easily. However that is just me, im too forgiving and understanding ( which is probably the reason I had a hard time staying mad at Steph as well haha ).

With all that being said I do hope on the love path we are able to sway her loyalty away from the templars as it will make it that much better.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

See I blame the parents more than Kaija now this might be just me and I don't have any evidence but a gut feeling. I honestly kind of got the impression Kaija and other templars that grew up and trained with them from a young age were most likely brainwashed to some extent , almost like they were a cult. Otherwise it's hard for me to understand the loyalty someone like Kaija would have to the templars. Plus makes it easier for me to understand why she would keep the lies up even on the love path tho tbh I don't have a problem with her lies cause with the context I'm able to understand and forgive that easily. However that is just me, im too forgiving and understanding ( which is probably the reason I had a hard time staying mad at Steph as well haha ).

With all that being said I do hope on the love path we are able to sway her loyalty away from the templars as it will make it that much better.

I don't hate Kaija overall but I certainly don't like her. It depends on the path as to what happened, and how she felt about it. Since I'm playing her love path as well, I certain dislike her as an LI on that path and loathe what she does on the other paths. I certainly don't trust her on any path. In saying that I do see good traits in her, like loyalty and trustworthiness, just not towards the MC, it is all towards the Templars. She is conflicted on the Kaija path but for now she is still in the Templar camp. If it was a RL situation I certain would never trust her again on any path. I'd be bye bye and on my way, even on the Kaija path.

 

[duckydoodoo]

Minor edit: That's also what makes Finnabair such a perfect LI. There were no lies there, everything that happened happened because it was honest.
Honest hatred, honest conversations, honest feelings. It was wholesome and something MC genuinely needed.

mostly agree with the rest of what you went off on, and personally my rants are way longer and three times more confusing cause I never miss running off on tangents(see this one here, has nothing to do with my original reason for quoting you, ive already had a tangent and yet to rant)

as for Finn, that was MC's truest and most sincere relationship in life outside his sister(he needs to do better by her, flashbacks show he pretty much sucked as a big bro). and now look what happened

im still amazed that no one points out how the parents are psychopaths, they didnt want thier kids mixed up in templar shit, but MC's childhood bestie with the crap home life, well she couldnt be a better pick for their cult unless she was a homeless orphan living on the streets. the brain damage to claim they were helping her, instead of you know taking her into their home and raising her like their own. which is the normal sane thing to do. they brainwashed her so good, she actually thinks MC parents gave her a better life but drowing her hands and soul in blood as a child soldier. I mean, from what they did to his bestie alone, thats cause to punch daddy in the throat and bitch slap mom.