VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[Rehwyn]

And there's a difference there....exactly how?

Exactly..there isn't. There is a reason 'operatives' like that are discouraged from being in relationships (before the world went fucking mad and saying that to someone, especially a woman, was no longer deemed PC).

I didn't say there was a difference; I intentionally made it as similar as possible. I just was wondering if some people would view it different because the perspective of "reality" vs "fantasy" changed.

I suspect that in the real world, if romantic feelings developed, Kaija would have been rotated out and someone else take her place for the reasons you mentioned. That's where a difference does arise though in that the Templars have no desire to do that even if Kaija asked for it. In the comparison, the CIA probably would discourage a relationship while here the Templars actively encourage it.

 

[xapican]

And there's a difference there....exactly how?

Exactly..there isn't. There is a reason 'operatives' like that are discouraged from being in relationships....

Well, true ; one big point of the plot, ( great job Ceo) is that If you dislike the "Knight Templar Order" and therefore Kaija, you implicitly dislike your own roots, since MC is the son of the Great grandmaster, and a high ranked operative, he grew up in this secretive environment.

 

[Maviarab]

I didn't say there was a difference; I intentionally made it as similar as possible. I just was wondering if some people would view it different because the perspective of "reality" vs "fantasy" changed.

I suspect that in the real world, if romantic feelings developed, Kaija would have been rotated out and someone else take her place for the reasons you mentioned. That's where a difference does arise though in that the Templars have no desire to do that even if Kaija asked for it.

You missed my point though...the perspective has not changed, just the setting.

You still have no idea why she would really be with you, job, love...anything else...also, just like Kaija, how can she protect you when half the time she is never actually there....so there is no perspective change, nothing has changed.

Yes you are correct, in real life they would be replaced, they would not be able to just 'resign', it would just be 50 shades of very messy (as it is in the game) but the bottom line remains, you have led a life that is a lie. Like all the bullshit you read on social media regarding kids and finding out it isn't yours or that your wife cheated 15 years earlier. Your whole entire relationship is a lie and is based and built upon lies. So no, I wouldn't care how much she said she loved me, whether we had kids or not or how damn hot she was...I'd check out.

The setting really doesn't matter all that much, nor the perspective, does it.

Edit: Just like to add while I remember, my good friend Grumpy Old Aussie mentioned Steph in LoF. Very different situation. She went MIA and quiet on her bosses for almost 2 years...becuase she loved him and put him first. She was subsequently arrested for it....snuck back out for that final day on the beach to sneak the letter to him. She left again as she realised her situation was untennable and had to leave him. Should she have told him..and then left? That's a difficult one...but her redemtion arc made sense somewhat and she wanted out of the organisation to live her life.

Can't say the same for Miss Kaija now can we (or certainly not yet at least...even on the love path..she has no intention of leaving the templars...).

All I can say to the Kaija forgivers is, you're more of a man than I am...or more idiotic to forgive the level of lies that affect your life, affect your 'actual beating heart physical life' and must like being walked all over by a (in this particular instance) woman who does what she likes knowing she can sweet talk you into forgiving her....been there done that shit and if a woman lies to me about which shop she went into and whether she bought nail polish or not I'm gone. There is NEVER a reason for lies in a relatiosnhip (otherwise, in reality, you really don't actually have a relationship). Lie about simple shit? Who knows what big stuff they'd happily cover up. Being quick to forgive, easily gloss over shit, won't make your life any easier in the long run and seriousloy, have some self-respect.

This also applies to both sexes btw before any idiot tries to acuse me of sexism or misogyny. To all the usual suspect trolls in this thread, this is NOT because she is a woman.....it's because she is a fucking liar and you cannot trust liars. Their sex is irelevent.

 

[Rehwyn]

Your whole entire relationship is a lie and is based and built upon lies.

I think this might be the core of the difference in our perspectives.

I tend not to see things in terms of absolutes. In my view, their relationship is a mix of truth and lies rather than entirely lies. She was childhood friends with you long before she was ordered to stay close to you, so there's certainly elements of truth there, even if later on she was ordered to stay close. And, depending on if you believe her and others, while she was ordered to try to start a romantic relationship with you, she refused. So the romantic nature of your relationship developed despite her refusal to follow it out of orders, which suggests that the attraction and affection may be genuine.

I guess my perspective is that, once the lies are removed, what remains? It sounds like you feel that nothing would, or nothing you could trust. But in my case, while part of the original reason for Kaija staying close would be gone, the childhood friendship and "organic" romantic affection could remain, even if in a fragile state. Whether or not the fragile parts that remain could recover and fill the gaps would depend on how forgiving MC is, how remorseful Kaija is, and how committed they both were to communicating and filing the holes left by the lies with honesty rather than more lies.

 

[Maviarab]

Whether or not that the fragile parts that remain could recover and fill the gaps would depend on how forgiving MC is, how remorseful Kaija is, and how committed they both were to communicating and filing the holes left by the lies with truth rather than more lies

Anyone who has had a relationship where one (or both) comitted some atrocity (cheating etc) and they stay together...will know...this very, very, very rarely ever works....

The jilted partner will never, never forget what happened....even if they say they will move on and put it behind them...and always be distrustful over the simplest of things. Really...why would you live like that? Masachism? Self loathing? Fear of loneliness? Let me remind people (some probably really need to hear this if they are young), love alone will never keep a relatiosnhip going. Neither will a lack of trust.

So the romantic nature of your relationship developed despite her refusal to follow it out of orders, which suggests that the attraction and affection may be genuine.

Only on one path but even on that path, she was quite happy to lie to you daily and, directly to your face (not me being intenionally obtuse, nor is it opinion, thats a statement of fact and unfortunately in the world we live in now, plenty of folk seem to have an issue accepting facts).

 

[TrixRabbit]

I can pass you a save with Medb, Fiona, Elea maxed, and Kaija 0
although I want you to consider one thing, the Rel points, are not equal that you can get engaged in Sex they are just there to show how open a character is to help you as MC or not.
It amazes me again and again, reading this strong rejection of Kaija and the Knights Templar order.

Nah, I can change them if I want to.

 

[HornyyPussy]

I'm curious if people with this perspective would view things differently if the situation was grounded more in reality than fantasy.

For example, if Kaija was like... a secret CIA operative protecting you from international crime syndicates that had a grudge against your parents. Personally, it'd be upsetting but quickly forgivable. The only potential romantic partners she could have while being transparent without breaking other vows would be CIA operative within the same operational unit. And your parents specifically told her not to tell you. So it's easy for me to empathize with the conflict she must have felt wanting to be honest with you as romantic feelings grew but not being able to without becoming foresworn or even potentially putting you in danger.

Yes, learning she's been dishonest would hurt, probably quite a bit. But if it was clear that she was remorseful and wanted to tell you but couldn't, I'd likely be quick to forgive with the caveat that going forward we're in it together.

This is what I basically meant, thanks for putting it in much better words

And for once I strongly disagree with Maviarab, go figure.....

 

[Maviarab]

Well, true ; one big point of the plot, ( great job Ceo) is that If you dislike the "Knight Templar Order" and therefore Kaija, you implicitly dislike your own roots, since MC is the son of the Great grandmaster, and a high ranked operative, he grew up in this secretive environment.

Fair point indeed...but then, no one ever asked to be born, let alone to those particular parents. Nothing wrong with not being interested in your 'roots' or wanting to move away from your 'background', especially if it's less than savory.

Even more so here, we (MC) were not even aware of our roots lol.

 

[yossa999]

Keeping other people's secrets = building your own relationship on lies
Serving the Templars = Cheating

If you accept these premises, then yes, Kaija is just a piece of shit.

 

[Rehwyn]

Anyone who has had a relationship where one (or both) comitted some atrocity (cheating etc) and they stay together...will know...this very, very, very rarely ever works....

The jilted partner will never, never forget what happened....even if they say they will move on and put it behind them...and always be distrustful over the simplest of things. Really...why would you live like that? Masachism? self loathing? Fear of loneliness? Let me remind people (some probably really need to hear this if they are young), love alone will never keep a relatiosnhip going. Neither will a lack of trust.

"Never" is a very strong absolute. It's not particularly likely and it takes a lot of work and probably therapy, but for some couples trust can recover.

I also find it weird that people keep comparing Kaija's dishonesty with cheating. To my knowledge, there's no indication she was with any other partners during your relationship. Yes, I realize you're making a comparison, but to me dishonesty about essentially your job is a lot less hurtful than dishonesty about your relationship fidelity.

It particularly strikes me as odd considering that the goal of her job as it relates to MC (keeping MC safe) isn't even a bad thing if she had been honest about it. And while her having another romantic relationship with your consent wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing (consensual non-monogamy), I think no amount of upfront honesty about cheating without your consent would make it okay. So in the case of cheating, it's not just the dishonesty but also the breach of your relationship fidelity agreement that makes it wrong.

Only on one path but even on that path, she was quite happy to lie to you daily and, directly to your face.

I'll have to try more paths later. I haven't done any where Kaija has low love points, which I suspect is what your referring to.

On that path, if she honestly doesn't actually have romantic feelings for you, I can see why more people would give her the boot.

 

[TrixRabbit]

Kinda responding to a bunch of stuff here all at once rather than reply/quote 3-4 points but ... if the Dev was writing so I'd be pissed at the Templars, it worked. The fact (or implication) that Kaija is remorseful changes nothing. The implication that she "wanted to tell you" changes nothing. ("I'm sorry I cheated on you every single day of our entire relationship, I wanted to stop & come clean, I felt bad about it, but I just couldn't. Forgive me?") The one thing that might have made a difference is if I'd been able to give her an ultimatum on day 1 - right after I found out - that she had to leave the Templars or me - and I mean cut all ties with whichever one she left. But that didn't happen.

If we were supposed to hate the Templars then the Dev did his job well because not only do I feel betrayed but I'm completely unimpressed with them individually, and as an organization and want nothing at all to do with them. The only tie I still feel there is MC's sister - and she is the only one I'll willingly meet with and talk to, but only on her own - not in the Templar's hall or her AND my parents. I assume there are still a few events before I go back, a few more conversations with the elves but at this point - in addition to everything else I've said - I want revenge.

Usually, when I react emotionally to something, I calm down with some time and am ready to take a more moderate approach, but in this case - with MCs parents, Kaija & the Templars, the more I think about it, the angrier I am. (And no, it would make no difference if it was the CIA or FBI or Sicilian Mafia).

 

[Maviarab]

I'll have to try more paths later. I haven't done any where Kaija has low love points, which I suspect is what your referring to.

On that path, if she honestly doesn't actually have romantic feelings for you, I can see why more people would give her the boot.

No need to play other paths. On your lovey dovey path....my statement was not option but fact. She still lies to you daily and directly to your face. On the love you path.

Now folk can try and deny this and bury their heads in the sand all they like, doesn't change the facts of the matter...

 

[e6mill]

"Never" is a very strong absolute. It's not particularly likely and it takes a lot of work and probably therapy, but for some couples trust can recover.

If you can't trust someone who rides a motorcycle into a raging gunbattle for you then IMO that's on you.

 

[TrixRabbit]

"Never" is a very strong absolute. It's not particularly likely and it takes a lot of work and probably therapy, but for some couples trust can recover.

I also find it weird that people keep comparing Kaija's dishonesty with cheating. To my knowledge, there's no indication she was with any other partners during your relationship. Yes, I realize you're making a comparison, but to me dishonesty about essentially your job is a lot less hurtful than dishonesty about your relationship fidelity.

I didn't say she was cheating in that sense, but that it was on par with it - as bad as cheating - a similar crime against MC and their relationship. I mean she knew (roughly) where your father was the whole time, and said nothing.

 

[HornyyPussy]

No need to play other paths. On your lovey dovey path....my statement was not option but fact. She still lies to you daily and directly to your face. On the love you path.

Now folk can try and deny this and bury their heads in the sand all they like, doesn't change the facts of the matter...

You know I have the utmost respect for you Mavi but here I think you're wrong (maybe not in facts but in spirit). It was a job for at first then she fell in love with the MC but she still had her orders. She was in a no win situation. Obviously I have no problem with her story. The whole "she's cheating" part is just ridiculous though (I know you didn't say that )

 

[HornyyPussy]

I didn't say she was cheating in that sense, but that it was on par with it - as bad as cheating - a similar crime against MC and their relationship. I mean she knew (roughly) where your father was the whole time, and said nothing.

Not even close to being similar but you do you.

 

[TrixRabbit]

Not even close to being similar but you do you.

To me it is an equal betrayal of trust

 

[HornyyPussy]

To me it is an equal betrayal of trust

I understood that and I think you're dead wrong.

 

[xapican]

Fair point indeed...but then, no one ever asked to be born, let alone to those particular parents. Nothing wrong with not being interested in your 'roots' or wanting to move away from your 'background', especially if it's less than savory.

Even more so here, we (MC) were not even aware of our roots lol.

We all aren't IRL, we just know what was told us and what we lived, and that is even conditioned by our moral values, and interpretation.
I don't think there is a culprit, this story (and Ceo did point it out iirc) is about how you overcome and do what you must in order to preseve the world you build and is threatend.

 

[Rehwyn]

No need to play other paths. On your lovey dovey path....my statement was not option but fact. She still lies to you daily and directly to your face. On the love you path.

Now folk can try and deny this and bury their heads in the sand all they like, doesn't change the facts of the matter...

I didn't say she was cheating in that sense, but that it was on par with it - as bad as cheating - a similar crime against MC and their relationship. I mean she knew (roughly) where your father was the whole time, and said nothing.

I think this is just more evidence that I see things in shades of grey a bit more.

Yes, she repeatedly lied to MC about her job for years. But, at least on the love path, many other things were true. If she kissed MC, had sex with MC, or told MC she loved him, it's because she wanted to. So those acts are truthful in isolation.

As I said before, removing the lies would leave gaps and probably leave even the honest parts fragile and unstable. It can be difficult to trust again and leave people wondering if anything was real, as you've said. But especially if MC can empathize with Kaija being stuck between a rock and a hard place and can forgive the lying about her job, the remaining "real" parts of the relationship can potentially be saved if trust is gradually restored.