No worries. I didn't think you were. I just think no one here is going to change anyone's mind. Which is fine, I was just trying to play devil's advocate for Kaija since most of the thread was shitting on her.
Lol, isn't it the whole point of forums on the internet? Everyone repeatedly say same thing without changing their opinion. As long as we keep it civil, no worries.
I'm going to replay this because I am remembering a lot of things differently from everyone else, especially about the foundation of the friendship/relationship, which I think, overall, is what's most important for whether or not to forgive Kaija.
Lol, isn't it the whole point of forums on the internet? Everyone repeatedly say same thing without changing their opinion. As long as we keep it civil, no worries.
Honestly, at first I was doing it just to play devil's advocate, but as I was recalling certain scenes things started churning in my brain and ultimately changed my mind. I don't fully forgive her, but I am interested to see if we see more emotional conversations between the MC and Kaija because even with the love route, a lot of questions are still unanswered or at least need to be expanded upon on Kaija's side.
Anyways, dinner ain't gonna pick itself up and I still need to finish Nephilim... and Oppai Odessey just dropped an update, so...
99% of the time I don't change my mind. This is literally the 1% (unless a dev changes canon or a mechanic, but those times don't count)
I was thinking of doing a whole post and include screenshots, but... god, that sounds exhausting. Maybe. We'll see.
Honestly, at first I was doing it just to play devil's advocate, but as I was recalling certain scenes things started churning in my brain and ultimately changed my mind. I don't fully forgive her, but I am interested to see if we see more emotional conversations between the MC and Kaija because even with the love route, a lot of questions are still unanswered or at least need to be expanded upon on Kaija's side.
Anyways, dinner ain't gonna pick itself up and I still need to finish Nephilim... and Oppai Odessey just dropped an update, so...
for me Kaija is irredemableon the non love path you cant even call it a friend path imo. and in my love path with her if its an option I 100% plan to side against the templars assuming thats an option to see how she truly feels at that point
DISCLAIMER: On my first (canon) run, I rejected Kaija (choosing "No" for love) because my initial reaction was that of feeling betrayed. Similar to that of Stephanie in LoF, the MC's partner has shown to have been hiding a life from him and had ulterior motives for being with him. Due to the discussions in this thread, I went back to try the "love" path and see the difference. I did see a different and shared my thoughts about it. Before I replay the game, I would like to reiterate here that I believe that she DID love the MC and is redeemable.
THE PLAYTHROUGH: I will be replaying the game and expressing my thoughts as I go. I will use the walkthrough mod and choose all green options (except for one which I feel helps this argument). I will reject all other characters (for the sake of time) and mostly skip scenes involving them. Below, I will recap what I witness and quote lines from the game, maybe even some screen shots if needed. All of this is from my perspective. I will be taking what Kaija says at face value. I will also express thoughts I feel are not in Kaija's defense if I feel necessary. Critical Thinking questions will be in blue text and serve as my thoughts of understanding/justifying a situation/dialogue.
SPOILERS AHEAD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
FROM THE INTRODUCTION: "You'll start this game by being in a relationship. This relationship is put to a severe test at the start of Chapter 2. After that, it's up to you to rekindle or move on." We begin the game in a relationship with Kaija ("K") that has progressed as far as living together. [By the way, is there a purpose to leaving the bathroom door open?]
We start at home with K. After a conversation about K's work and how it takes her away from home often, she thinks "This cannot go on. I need to figure something out or we will both suffer from this situation even more." Now, this one is interesting. She has some internal struggle about her "situation" but she acknowledges here that she, as well as MC, is suffering from her work/life balance. Is she suffering from being away from MC for so long? From having to hide her work or lie to him? Or because she does not want to be in this situation? K says she will be home by the time MC returns from work.
During work, we receive a phone call from K. She tells us that she has to leave for business for a few days and won't be home tonight. Given that she is leaving for a few days, I am surprised that she does not end the call with "I love you" as I would expect from a relationship which as evolved into living together.
We leave work and head to the bar. I am curious, though, if Kevin knows who we are and that is why he is staring at us. It's likely that he does, given what we learn about the MC's status later. We then head home. When we wake up the next morning, we have still not heard from K. We text her before work. Later at the office, K calls us. She apologizes for not texting us sooner. When we ask where she is, she hesitates but answers "Neverwhere". She tells the MC the name of a place which is supposed to remain hidden from the world. This shows trust. If she didn't trust us, why would she reveal classified information? Again, at the end of the call, no "I love you."
After a meeting with our boss, we get a call from our mom that we need to leave immediately as our father has been kidnapped and you are the next target. She sent a driver, who we meet and begin driving to our parent's house. We are then attacked by unknown agents. Our car is flipped, the the enemy approaches. K then shows up on a motorcycle, kills a couple baddies, and sits next to us. Thee first thing she asks is "Are you okay?" Is she asking because she cares? Or because we are her responsibility to protect (which we don't know yet)? We ask why she is there, she responds "I heard the news about you being in danger and getting picked up. So I left the mission behind and came to make sure you get to safety." We ask if she could get in trouble. She responds "Maybe. I don't care." She put the MC before her current mission. If he was nothing but an assignment, and we are getting picked up by an agent already, why bother showing up at all? Because she does actually care about MC, to some extent at the very least. We prepare to fight and tell her to be careful. She responds "I will. You too please, you hear me?" Adding "please" and "you hear me?" makes this personal. There is no actual need to say anything after "You too". Bart (a baddie) throws K to the ground during a fight. We come up behind him with a gun and point it at the back of his head. We shoot. K is saddened by this.
She hugs you and tells you that she blames herself. She is sad because you had to be the one to do this. She wanted to save you from this. She was trained to do this, you were not. It is very likely she is aware of the mental and emotion trauma one can go through when they take a life, something she did not want you to have to experience because she cares for you and blames herself for failing you. You leave on her bike. On the highway, she speeds up which you are a bit uneasy about. She does slow down, so she is at least considerate of your feelings.
You arrive at your parents house and are greeted by your sister. She thanks K for saving you. She responds "Things like that go without saying." Again, showing that saving you is a choice she would make without a second of thought of consequences. Now comes... the talk.
When we ask where she is, she hesitates but answers "Neverwhere". She tells the MC the name of a place which is supposed to remain hidden from the world. This shows trust. If she didn't trust us, why would she reveal classified information? Again, at the end of the call, no "I love you."
She only trusts that MC won't understand, so it isn't that much of a positive. MC don't have a secured phone, so Kaija could potentially land in trouble is someone listens in.
And interesting that it is possible to call from inside Neverwhere to the outside. I wonder what kind of limitations that has. Could MC call one of the elves if he has the right number?
EDIT: About no "I love you", the only time Kaija expresses love for anything in the first chapter is when she says she loves her job.
DISCLAIMER: On my first (canon) run, I rejected Kaija (choosing "No" for love) because my initial reaction was that of feeling betrayed. Similar to that of Stephanie in LoF, the MC's partner has shown to have been hiding a life from him and had ulterior motives for being with him. Due to the discussions in this thread, I went back to try the "love" path and see the difference. I did see a different and shared my thoughts about it. Before I replay the game, I would like to reiterate here that I believe that she DID love the MC and is redeemable.
THE PLAYTHROUGH: I will be replaying the game and expressing my thoughts as I go. I will use the walkthrough mod and choose all green options (except for one which I feel helps this argument). I will reject all other characters (for the sake of time) and mostly skip scenes involving them. Below, I will recap what I witness and quote lines from the game, maybe even some screen shots if needed. All of this is from my perspective. I will be taking what Kaija says at face value. I will also express thoughts I feel are not in Kaija's defense if I feel necessary. Critical Thinking questions will be in blue text and serve as my thoughts of understanding/justifying a situation/dialogue.
SPOILERS AHEAD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
THE REVEAL: At our parent's house, we are sat at the table with our mother, sister, and Kaija ("K"). Here is where we learn who our father really is and the organization he is the leader of, The Knights Templar ("TKT") . Your mother tries, but K explains calmly who the TKT are. Here is where K admits she is one of them. She looks down at first, and when she speaks next, she does not raise her head entirely - just enough to make eye contact with you. She is feeling shame here. Mainly, shame for deceiving you. Why else would she hang her head? Because she feels guilty. She is showing herself as vulnerable to you by lowering her head. Vulnerability is not something humans generally show people we have no feelings for, whether they be of familial or romantic.
She started training for TKT years before her eighteenth birthday. The MC responds "That is as long as we have known each other." Jessica asks K how her and MC met. K explains "A few weeks after I officially joined the Templars, I was approached by one of our supervisors. He knew, of course, that you and me had been friends since our teens. He asked me if we were more than friends. I told him that was none of his business." She continues "They tried to force me to get closer to you. They wanted me close to you so I could protect you, if needed." She says 'tried' here meaning their attempts to progress K's and MC's relationship did not work. Our father then spoke with her. They agreed that she would be the MC's protector, she explains "How I managed that was up to me." We ask her "So you thought it was a good idea to lie to me and pretend you like me?" to which K responds "What? No. At that point we had been friends for years. I always enjoyed spending time with you. I thought it would be easy. Just spend more time with him. Do friend stuff. No problem." Let's pause... so, we have an already established friendship between K and the MC. K admits she likes spending time with him, and she was not being forced to become more than friends with you. This is an argument I read a lot here - that TKT was forcing her into this relationship. They didn't. In fact, they didn't force them to be friends. They already were. They just made use of that established friendship to add protection to a valuable person. Be it a coincidence or fate, it was not unnatural.
K continues "The more time we spent together, the more I enjoyed being near you." I mean, isn't this how friendships can realistically progress into a relationship? When you start dating someone, you're not a couple. You're two people getting to know one another. Most of the couples I know were friends before they started dating. Some of them for years before either of them made a move. This entire timeline of progression is 100% realistically believable.
Now, here's where things can be foggy... MC asks her how much of "this" was a show. K responds "In the beginning? Pretty much everything except the original friendship. In the end? Nothing!" MC's mom then says that K had no choice; "You were friends already, and it was a chance to make sure you stayed safe..." I'm not entirely sure how to take K's response. What is the "everything" she is referring to? It almost reads like she didn't want to stay friends with you but was forced to, but that doesn't make sense when earlier she said that she enjoyed spending time with you. However, it is said multiple times that MC and K were already friends before she was asked to do this, so there was an honest foundation for their friendship & relationship. Her feelings developed naturally. I think I can say that objectively. We then try to leave, but K, seeing how hurt we are, tells us to stay and that she will leave.
She whispers this, seemingly to herself as we do not see a reaction from anyone else that they heard this. Assuming she knows no one can hear this, why say it at all if she doesn't mean it?
We say goodnight and after washing up, sit by the fire in the living room. Here we have the biggest question. MC thinks "How will I be able to trust her [Kaija]... them [mom & dad]... ever again?" I believe the overarching argument here is not questioning K's love, but her trust. Granted, trust is an important part of loving someone. There can be no love without trust, lest it be shallow love, which this has never presented itself as being. Jess then comes to join us (and how dare you not let me lewd my hot sister). Now we have a pretty big talk with her. Here is where we decide if we love K (I'll give you a hint, we do). Jessica says "She [Kaija] left her mission behind, knowing she would be in trouble. She loves you too. Even more than that. We girls have a sense for these things. I can see it in her eyes. She had completely fallen for you. And she's made at herself for what she did. Not because of the consequences for her, but because she hurt you." Let's be honest... a huge lie was just revealed to us. It is 100% expected that we start to question everything even remotely related to that lie. That does not mean, however, that everything in between was also a lie. Jess is looking at our situation from the outside. While we may be blinded by anger, she is not. I fully believe what she tells us in this scene. I trust her and do not think she would lie to us about this, seeing how hurt we are by it. The next morning, we decide to go back home to think about everything.
She started training for TKT years before her eighteenth birthday. The MC responds "That is as long as we have known each other." Jessica asks K how her and MC met. K explains "A few weeks after I officially joined the Templars, I was approached by one of our supervisors. He knew, of course, that you and me had been friends since our teens. He asked me if we were more than friends. I told him that was none of his business." She continues "They tried to force me to get closer to you. They wanted me close to you so I could protect you, if needed." She says 'tried' here meaning their attempts to progress K's and MC's relationship did not work. Our father then spoke with her. They agreed that she would be the MC's protector, she explains "How I managed that was up to me." We ask her "So you thought it was a good idea to lie to me and pretend you like me?" to which K responds "What? No. At that point we had been friends for years. I always enjoyed spending time with you. I thought it would be easy. Just spend more time with him. Do friend stuff. No problem." Let's pause... so, we have an already established friendship between K and the MC. K admits she likes spending time with him, and she was not being forced to become more than friends with you. This is an argument I read a lot here - that TKT was forcing her into this relationship. They didn't. In fact, they didn't force them to be friends. They already were. They just made use of that established friendship to add protection to a valuable person. Be it a coincidence or fate, it was not unnatural.
K continues "The more time we spent together, the more I enjoyed being near you." I mean, isn't this how friendships can realistically progress into a relationship? When you start dating someone, you're not a couple. You're two people getting to know one another. Most of the couples I know were friends before they started dating. Some of them for years before either of them made a move. This entire timeline of progression is 100% realistically believable.
This indicates that even if they were friends before, their meeting in the first place is suspicious. Seems someone in the Templars really want to cultivate a friendship/lovers between Kaija and MC.
Second, this is the essence of the "forced" argument:
MC: But we were just friends back then.
Kaija: Yeah. Still got into an argument with him. I ended up in front of the leadership.
Kaija: They tried to force me to get closer to you. They wanted me close to you so I could protect you, if needed.
The leadership wanted Kaija as close as possible to MC. Kaija resisted. Which is pretty funny since Kaija seem to always be away on missions.
In fact, I'm a bit suspicious about if the Templars leadership actually want to protect MC. The protection they gave MC is never around to protect him. When MC gets a real threat they only send a chauffeur without any support. It's like all they have done is just for show to be able to say to Mom and Dad that they have done something for his protection.
DISCLAIMER: On my first (canon) run, I rejected Kaija (choosing "No" for love) because my initial reaction was that of feeling betrayed. Similar to that of Stephanie in LoF, the MC's partner has shown to have been hiding a life from him and had ulterior motives for being with him. Due to the discussions in this thread, I went back to try the "love" path and see the difference. I did see a different and shared my thoughts about it. Before I replay the game, I would like to reiterate here that I believe that she DID love the MC and is redeemable.
THE PLAYTHROUGH: I will be replaying the game and expressing my thoughts as I go. I will use the walkthrough mod and choose all green options (except for one which I feel helps this argument). I will reject all other characters (for the sake of time) and mostly skip scenes involving them. Below, I will recap what I witness and quote lines from the game, maybe even some screen shots if needed. All of this is from my perspective. I will be taking what Kaija says at face value. I will also express thoughts I feel are not in Kaija's defense if I feel necessary. Critical Thinking questions will be in blue text and serve as my thoughts of understanding/justifying a situation/dialogue.
SPOILERS AHEAD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
THE REVEAL: At our parent's house, we are sat at the table with our mother, sister, and Kaija ("K"). Here is where we learn who our father really is and the organization he is the leader of, The Knights Templar ("TKT") . Your mother tries, but K explains calmly who the TKT are. Here is where K admits she is one of them. She looks down at first, and when she speaks next, she does not raise her head entirely - just enough to make eye contact with you. She is feeling shame here. Mainly, shame for deceiving you. Why else would she hang her head? Because she feels guilty. She is showing herself as vulnerable to you by lowering her head. Vulnerability is not something humans generally show people we have no feelings for, whether they be of familial or romantic.
She started training for TKT years before her eighteenth birthday. The MC responds "That is as long as we have known each other." Jessica asks K how her and MC met. K explains "A few weeks after I officially joined the Templars, I was approached by one of our supervisors. He knew, of course, that you and me had been friends since our teens. He asked me if we were more than friends. I told him that was none of his business." She continues "They tried to force me to get closer to you. They wanted me close to you so I could protect you, if needed." She says 'tried' here meaning their attempts to progress K's and MC's relationship did not work. Our father then spoke with her. They agreed that she would be the MC's protector, she explains "How I managed that was up to me." We ask her "So you thought it was a good idea to lie to me and pretend you like me?" to which K responds "What? No. At that point we had been friends for years. I always enjoyed spending time with you. I thought it would be easy. Just spend more time with him. Do friend stuff. No problem." Let's pause... so, we have an already established friendship between K and the MC. K admits she likes spending time with him, and she was not being forced to become more than friends with you. This is an argument I read a lot here - that TKT was forcing her into this relationship. They didn't. In fact, they didn't force them to be friends. They already were. They just made use of that established friendship to add protection to a valuable person. Be it a coincidence or fate, it was not unnatural.
K continues "The more time we spent together, the more I enjoyed being near you." I mean, isn't this how friendships can realistically progress into a relationship? When you start dating someone, you're not a couple. You're two people getting to know one another. Most of the couples I know were friends before they started dating. Some of them for years before either of them made a move. This entire timeline of progression is 100% realistically believable.
Now, here's where things can be foggy... MC asks her how much of "this" was a show. K responds "In the beginning? Pretty much everything except the original friendship. In the end? Nothing!" MC's mom then says that K had no choice; "You were friends already, and it was a chance to make sure you stayed safe..." I'm not entirely sure how to take K's response. What is the "everything" she is referring to? It almost reads like she didn't want to stay friends with you but was forced to, but that doesn't make sense when earlier she said that she enjoyed spending time with you. However, it is said multiple times that MC and K were already friends before she was asked to do this, so there was an honest foundation for their friendship & relationship. Her feelings developed naturally. I think I can say that objectively. We then try to leave, but K, seeing how hurt we are, tells us to stay and that she will leave.
She whispers this, seemingly to herself as we do not see a reaction from anyone else that they heard this. Assuming she knows no one can hear this, why say it at all if she doesn't mean it?
We say goodnight and after washing up, sit by the fire in the living room. Here we have the biggest question. MC thinks "How will I be able to trust her [Kaija]... them [mom & dad]... ever again?" I believe the overarching argument here is not questioning K's love, but her trust. Granted, trust is an important part of loving someone. There can be no love without trust, lest it be shallow love, which this has never presented itself as being. Jess then comes to join us (and how dare you not let me lewd my hot sister). Now we have a pretty big talk with her. Here is where we decide if we love K (I'll give you a hint, we do). Jessica says "She [Kaija] left her mission behind, knowing she would be in trouble. She loves you too. Even more than that. We girls have a sense for these things. I can see it in her eyes. She had completely fallen for you. And she's made at herself for what she did. Not because of the consequences for her, but because she hurt you." Let's be honest... a huge lie was just revealed to us. It is 100% expected that we start to question everything even remotely related to that lie. That does not mean, however, that everything in between was also a lie. Jess is looking at our situation from the outside. While we may be blinded by anger, she is not. I fully believe what she tells us in this scene. I trust her and do not think she would lie to us about this, seeing how hurt we are by it. The next morning, we decide to go back home to think about everything.
Reading through all of this as well as part one I get the feeling that the main argument is that she loves the MC and regret what she did to him. I truly doubt that anyone is denying that she actually began loving him on the love route, she proves it to us a few times. What I wish to bring notice to however is that love and "friend" route Kaija are not different people. The way you make her love you is choosing the right actions whilst you are in a relationship. I think this is undeniably proof that you were in a relationship first only for her to fall in love with you later.
For the Neverwhere comment, as has already been pointed out, the name means nothing to the MC, and Kaija knows this. She already felt bad and it is most likely if not most definitely a way for her to technically not lie for once. A selfish action meant to help herself, not the MC.
As to her comment about how much has been a lie, her answer is "In the beginning? Pretty much everything except the original friendship. In the end? Nothing!". You ask what she means with "everything". For her to say everything means that they were something else other than friends "in the begining". So they were in a relationship and she said that everything about it apart from the friendship was a lie. I see no other possible answer than her lying about her feelings. They would not have become a couple unless both said they had feelings for the other. While certain people started loving each other after starting the relationship, those types of people are usually in arranged relationships. It is highly rare for two people to start dating without having any romantic feelings for each other, especially two good friends. Considering her order was to be close to him, it is very possible that she initiated the relationship , adding another layer to her lies and manipulations.
To me, saying that she did begin loving him and started to regret it really does not absolve her of anything. I've said it before here, if you murder someone and then start regretting murdering that person, should you be forgiven? Notice that I said started regretting murdering THAT person. Kaija felt bad for it, but she never once showed any remorse for her tactics, her remorse came from her deceiving someone she loved, not for emotionally manipulating him so she could follow the assignment given to her by her cult. This is shown on the "friend" route, where she is completely emotionless about it, not seeing anything wrong in it. Yes, they are different routes, but she is still the same person. The only difference between them is that she started loving the MC.
DISCLAIMER: On my first (canon) run, I rejected Kaija (choosing "No" for love) because my initial reaction was that of feeling betrayed. Similar to that of Stephanie in LoF, the MC's partner has shown to have been hiding a life from him and had ulterior motives for being with him. Due to the discussions in this thread, I went back to try the "love" path and see the difference. I did see a different and shared my thoughts about it. Before I replay the game, I would like to reiterate here that I believe that she DID love the MC and is redeemable.
THE PLAYTHROUGH: I will be replaying the game and expressing my thoughts as I go. I will use the walkthrough mod and choose all green options (except for one which I feel helps this argument). I will reject all other characters (for the sake of time) and mostly skip scenes involving them. Below, I will recap what I witness and quote lines from the game, maybe even some screen shots if needed. All of this is from my perspective. I will be taking what Kaija says at face value. I will also express thoughts I feel are not in Kaija's defense if I feel necessary. Critical Thinking questions will be in blue text and serve as my thoughts of understanding/justifying a situation/dialogue.
Again, Kaija ("K") is saddened. We only see this scene if we do not go to Fiona's (which is fine, I don't want to be complicit in her next plan to kill poor people). That entire narration seems to capture her thoughts... hopes, even...
Love is strange... You think you'll do everything for someone... And you try to do so, you really do... You try to shield them from pain... And danger... You lie to them... Because sometimes you have no other choice... Right? They might be mad at you... But they will understand... with enough time... They need to... Because that hope is the only thing that keeps you going... But no matter what... In the end everything falls apart... Love is strange... Love hurts, love scars...
I'm going to be honest, unless you never went back to the apartment and completely missed this scene, there is no way you cannot read that as she is hurting because she hurt someone she loves. It is spelled out plain as day.
We go to work. We give Elea the short version of what went down. The next day, we go to the beach with Elea (and not just because I get to JUMP IN! the General Lee). Again, we get kind of a weird situation. Elea asks if K is our girlfriend. If we choose Yes, the MC explains "She kinda is. At least I see it that way. Not sure about her." This seems like more second guessing. We express that we are unsure how she see us. I mean, so far in this story, she has yet to tell us that she loves us outside of that whisper when she was leaving our parent's house that we likely did not hear. After Elea questions his answer, he explains "She lied to me and hid things from me. I understand her reasons, it's just..." ... "...What else was a lie? It's one of the things that keeps my mind busy these days." More second guessing, which is to be expected in this situation. It is not something that - if the relationship ever meant anything to the MC - should be rushed.
On the way back from the beach, we get a phone call from K. She needs to talk to us about the meeting we are supposed to have the next day. Now, a lot of people harped on that she didn't give the MC an option and forced him to go. That is a reach if there ever was one. Obviously she can't talk about a secret world on an unsecured phone. Not even going to entertain that argument. We answer the phone and K says "Sorry for disturbing you..." Why does she start with that? Why is she apologizing? Because she understands that you need space to process all of this and she is interrupting that. She is considerate of your feelings.
We meet K on a bench along the promenade. A place were they had spent countless evenings. Why have the meeting there? Maybe it provides her some comfort, if the two of you have memories there. Maybe she's hoping to remind you of them. Either way, she still looks hurt.
She tells you that you will need to be picked up for the meeting. She offers to find someone else if you don't want to go with her. At the very least, by now, you have to admit she is at least considerate of the MC. If you do decide to go with her, she tells you that she can pick you up early and give you a tour. Why? She doesn't have to. So I'll harp back on Part 2 - she likes spending time with you.
Now comes the talk... well, a talk. We have 3 questions to ask her.
Why did you never tell me? She was scared. She knew that if she told you the truth, she could lose you. She was afraid of that happening. Since I'm arguing if she loves you here... that's pretty solid evidence. She wasn't afraid of failing her mission, she was afraid of losing you.
Do you love me? "Yes." Just a simple 'yes'? Weird, right? "Because I do without any restrictions. Any more words will just devalue the answer." Pretty fuckin poetic, if you ask me. This is the first time she tells MC to his face. She continues, "We need to figure this out, MC. The sooner the better. Or it'll destroy the both of us."
[unimportant to my point]
We ask her to sit with us for a little while. She responds "I'd love to... I missed this." It's one of her favorite places in the city. She explains "Not the place. Well... the place, too. But what made me love it was being here with you." We say our goodbyes and head home.
TO BE CONTINUED IN PART 4 After a short break because this is a lot and I'm supposed to be working...
No idea about the current guys, (the council?) but MC's father IS the leader... There's no reason Kaija should even be there 24/7, the family could have had protection from templars without their knowledge. Kaija just had a valid reason to be close to MC in school or other places and could be very close without raising questions, something not always possible for the more discrete templar protection. The father being the leader of the templars is reason enough to have his family under permanent protection 24/7.... There's a question that still need to be answered, if "leadership" wanted Kaija close to MC, how much of that is actually by direct order of MC's father? The father and the mother must have known, maybe even suggested or ordered it...
Reading through all of this as well as part one I get the feeling that the main argument is that she loves the MC and regret what she did to him. I truly doubt that anyone is denying that she actually began loving him on the love route, she proves it to us a few times. What I wish to bring notice to however is that love and "friend" route Kaija are not different people. The way you make her love you is choosing the right actions whilst you are in a relationship. I think this is undeniably proof that you were in a relationship first only for her to fall in love with you later.
For the Neverwhere comment, as has already been pointed out, the name means nothing to the MC, and Kaija knows this. She already felt bad and it is most likely if not most definitely a way for her to technically not lie for once. A selfish action meant to help herself, not the MC.
As to her comment about how much has been a lie, her answer is "In the beginning? Pretty much everything except the original friendship. In the end? Nothing!". You ask what she means with "everything". For her to say everything means that they were something else other than friends "in the begining". So they were in a relationship and she said that everything about it apart from the friendship was a lie. I see no other possible answer than her lying about her feelings. They would not have become a couple unless both said they had feelings for the other. While certain people started loving each other after starting the relationship, those types of people are usually in arranged relationships. It is highly rare for two people to start dating without having any romantic feelings for each other, especially two good friends. Considering her order was to be close to him, what was the chance that she initiated the relationship, adding another layer to her lies and manipulations.
To me, saying that she did begin loving him and started to regret it really does not absolve her of anything. I've said it before here, if you murder someone and then start regretting murdering that person, should you be forgiven? Notice that I said started regretting murdering THAT person. Kaija felt bad for it, but she never once showed any remorse for her tactics, her remorse came from her deceiving someone she loved, not for emotionally manipulating him so she could follow the assignment given to her by her cult. This is shown on the "friend" route, where she is completely emotionless about it, not seeing anything wrong in it. Yes, they are different routes, but she is still the same person. The only difference between them is that she started loving the MC.
I'm only looking at the love route because you get what you give. If you take the friend route and act cold to her, is she supposed to grovel? You're expressing that you don't love or trust her. To expect her to have undying feelings while you express hatred is not fair.
The Neverwhere comment. Yes, it meant nothing to the MC. She still said the name on an open channel. He might not know what it means, but it's still classified information. She can still 100% get in trouble for even saying the name. She took a risk - that's the point.
They were friends in the beginning. Maybe wanting to hang out all the time was the lie. But the relationship didn't start until years later. Her feelings developed over time. Maybe she forced herself to hang out with him more than she would have normally, but she didn't force her feelings. Those were natural.
I'm not saying you should forgive her. I'm saying that she loves MC. I'm also not argueing the friend route, for reasons I've mentioned above. You can't choose to not love her and then get mad that she accepts that, or at least starts to process it and greive. We've only seen her a couple times without the MC, so we don't know what's happening when shes at home or alone. We got that shower scene, how many more do we need?
At the end of the day, this is still a choose your own adventure. You chose to not love her. Dev said "okay, the player doesn't like this character, let's give him other options." So saying she is the same person... she's not. YOU'RE deciding how the relationships play out. If I don't like a character, I usually don't want to see them on screen. Dev probably understands that's how people are and is accommodating that. Arguing mechanics doesn't solve anything.
Okay. I'm going back to work before anyone realizes I took a 2 hour lunch...
I'm only looking at the love route because you get what you give. If you take the friend route and act cold to her, is she supposed to grovel? You're expressing that you don't love or trust her. To expect her to have undying feelings while you express hatred is not fair.
The Neverwhere comment. Yes, it meant nothing to the MC. She still said the name on an open channel. He might not know what it means, but it's still classified information. She can still 100% get in trouble for even saying the name. She took a risk - that's the point.
They were friends in the beginning. Maybe wanting to hang out all the time was the lie. But the relationship didn't start until years later. Her feelings developed over time. Maybe she forced herself to hang out with him more than she would have normally, but she didn't force her feelings. Those were natural.
I'm not saying you should forgive her. I'm saying that she loves MC. I'm also not argueing the friend route, for reasons I've mentioned above. You can't choose to not love her and then get mad that she accepts that, or at least starts to process it and greive. We've only seen her a couple times without the MC, so we don't know what's happening when shes at home or alone. We got that shower scene, how many more do we need?
At the end of the day, this is still a choose your own adventure. You chose to not love her. Dev said "okay, the player doesn't like this character, let's give him other options." So saying she is the same person... she's not. YOU'RE deciding how the relationships play out. If I don't like a character, I usually don't want to see them on screen. Dev probably understands that's how people are and is accommodating that. Arguing mechanics doesn't solve anything.
Okay. I'm going back to work before anyone realizes I took a 2 hour lunch...
I feel like that is the issue with the different routes, you get barely any chances to show if you are interested or not. "Not loving her" is showing that you are interested in her body and forgetting to text her once. That part really is barebones, I don't think it's fair to say that the MC doesn't love her there, I think he made it clear that he did.
It does not matter if she took a risk or not, I really don't see how that proves or change anything. It was a pointless risk she made without really telling him anything. I don't see how it's a point.
Her feeling were natural, but that does not change the fact that she entered a relationship with the MC without loving him just because her job said so.
Just to comment on " Love is strange... You think you'll do everything for someone... And you try to do so, you really do... You try to shield them from pain... And danger... You lie to them... Because sometimes you have no other choice... Right? They might be mad at you... But they will understand... with enough time... They need to... Because that hope is the only thing that keeps you going... But no matter what... In the end everything falls apart... Love is strange... Love hurts, love scars... ", I never saw this one, it's quite interesting, though I do find it bullshit. She did not do "everything" for someone, she did "everything" because she was ordered to. She wallows in self pity after her love found out that she lied about both their relationship and the state of the entire world, and then she hopes he understands even though there is nothing more to understand.
I know you're saying that she loves him, but you made the title "In defense of Kaija" in all caps. If it was called "Kaija still loves you" in all caps, then sure, but you advertise it as a defense of her. You never really choose not to love her, you choose what she thinks of you. Your character does love her, he would not be in a relationship if he didn't, he would not be that hurt if he didn't. But yeah, way to little information about their home life is available.
Yes, you decide if her character would start to love you or not, but it is still the same character, just without the late blooming love. If one wants to truly understand a character, he must look at how the character replies to several situations. The only thing that changes is whether or not she begins to love you during the relationship. In both routes she shows no remorse for emotionally manipulating you, she is only sad in the love route because she began to have romantic feelings, showing that she was fine lying to her friend about her feeling towards him. Her personality does not change, it's still the same character in the same situation, just without love added. She never once showed any remorse about her manipulation, it rather seems like she regretted him finding out.
No idea about the current guys, (the council?) but MC's father IS the leader...
There's no reason Kaija should even be there 24/7, the family could have had protection from templars without their knowledge. Kaija just had a valid reason to be close to MC in school or other places and could be very close without raising questions, something not always possible for the more discrete templar protection. The father being the leader of the templars is reason enough to have his family under permanent protection 24/7.... There's a question that still need to be answered, if "leadership" wanted Kaija close to MC, how much of that is actually by direct order of MC's father? The father and the mother must have known, maybe even suggested or ordered it...
We don't know how much power the position of Grandmaster actually gives him. Does he have the last say in everything or is he just a figurehead? My scenario is that Mom and Dad requested protection for MC (why not for Jessica?) and the council responded with doing the minimum for the request.
You also didn't say anything about the other point: That MC only got a chauffeur when his life was threatened.
I'm only looking at the love route because you get what you give. If you take the friend route and act cold to her, is she supposed to grovel? You're expressing that you don't love or trust her. To expect her to have undying feelings while you express hatred is not fair.
The Neverwhere comment. Yes, it meant nothing to the MC. She still said the name on an open channel. He might not know what it means, but it's still classified information. She can still 100% get in trouble for even saying the name. She took a risk - that's the point.
They were friends in the beginning. Maybe wanting to hang out all the time was the lie. But the relationship didn't start until years later. Her feelings developed over time. Maybe she forced herself to hang out with him more than she would have normally, but she didn't force her feelings. Those were natural.
I'm not saying you should forgive her. I'm saying that she loves MC. I'm also not argueing the friend route, for reasons I've mentioned above. You can't choose to not love her and then get mad that she accepts that, or at least starts to process it and greive. We've only seen her a couple times without the MC, so we don't know what's happening when shes at home or alone. We got that shower scene, how many more do we need?
At the end of the day, this is still a choose your own adventure. You chose to not love her. Dev said "okay, the player doesn't like this character, let's give him other options." So saying she is the same person... she's not. YOU'RE deciding how the relationships play out. If I don't like a character, I usually don't want to see them on screen. Dev probably understands that's how people are and is accommodating that. Arguing mechanics doesn't solve anything.
Okay. I'm going back to work before anyone realizes I took a 2 hour lunch...
Yes, they love each other. Yes, she is remorseful. Yes, MC can forgive her. But none of that matters unless they can't get over the fissure that is the lies and deceit from Kaija. In the future, how will MC be able to trust that what Kaija says is actually the truth? Each time she refuses to say what she is doing ("it's classified") more trust will be lost. Each time she says a white lie to not divulge Templar stuff more trust will be lost. Each time she prioritizes some Templar job/mission more trust will be lost. Can they overcome it? Maybe, but it is a very narrow path. Especially Kaija needs to consistently show MC that he is more important than the Templars for Kaija. I really hope the dev doesn't trivializes this problem in their relationship.
We don't know how much power the position of Grandmaster actually gives him. Does he have the last say in everything or is he just a figurehead? My scenario is that Mom and Dad requested protection for MC (why not for Jessica?) and the council responded with doing the minimum for the request.
You also didn't say anything about the other point: That MC only got a chauffeur when his life was threatened.
Well, we know with the father being captured there's a crisis, so it's acceptable if the majority of the agents are busy trying to find the grandmaster... So the fact MC only gets a chauffeur is not that strange, the family already is protected, he just needs to be brought there, the chauffeur may simply have been the only agent available at that moment.
We don't know if there's protection for Jessica or not, we only know Kaija was ordered to protect MC, and the only reason this fact has been revealed, is because she saved him when he got intercepted, this effectively blown her cover....
As for the grandmaster's power, there's no reason to assume he's just a figure head, he must have had the authority to make day-to-day decisions to run the organisation. Perhaps he's a member of the council, perhaps he was appointed by and has to answer to the council, but there's really no significance to the elves' threat killing him if he's just a puppet....
Much of the council's energy right now is spent on crisis management... So how much can they be blamed? They're taking a leading role while they're probably used to a more supervising role... It's not "just another days work".... All hands on deck!
No idea about the current guys, (the council?) but MC's father IS the leader... There's no reason Kaija should even be there 24/7, the family could have had protection from templars without their knowledge. Kaija just had a valid reason to be close to MC in school or other places and could be very close without raising questions, something not always possible for the more discrete templar protection. The father being the leader of the templars is reason enough to have his family under permanent protection 24/7.... There's a question that still need to be answered, if "leadership" wanted Kaija close to MC, how much of that is actually by direct order of MC's father? The father and the mother must have known, maybe even suggested or ordered it...
During first discussion with Kaija (the reveal one) she says she was ordered to be with MC by the order. It was stopped by MCs father (she still decided to do it of her own volition, easier job).
As for mother, well mother openly says she knew about it and agreed with that.
That's why I can't (for now) support Templars, Kaija or MCs family in any regard. Sister excluded, she's fucking awesome, isn't afraid to tell her mom they all fucked up and support her brother in time of need.
They all lied big fucking time to him, they betrayed him and basically FORCED him into loving a girl that wasn't really interested in him. And his parents supported that!!!
"Ye, your whole life might be a lie, but you'll be safe". Mother deserves no love from MC either. So showing that templar no respect is proper way to treat them.
During first discussion with Kaija (the reveal one) she says she was ordered to be with MC by the order. It was stopped by MCs father (she still decided to do it of her own volition, easier job).
As for mother, well mother openly says she knew about it and agreed with that.
That's why I can't (for now) support Templars, Kaija or MCs family in any regard. Sister excluded, she's fucking awesome, isn't afraid to tell her mom they all fucked up and support her brother in time of need.
They all lied big fucking time to him, they betrayed him and basically FORCED him into loving a girl that wasn't really interested in him. And his parents supported that!!!
"Ye, your whole life might be a lie, but you'll be safe". Mother deserves no love from MC either. So showing that templar no respect is proper way to treat them.
Agree 100%. I never was very interested in incest, and so I see incest LI's as any other love interest, though I got really disappointed when I saw that the sister was not a LI. She's hands down the best character in the entire game.
