VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Well, GOA, that is just the point, there is no secret anymore, the cat came out of the box, as Kaija, put her ovaries together and told the truth in chapter 2.
Also to take in consideration, is that the "Relationship, is not so long, only about 1 a half year, as couple, there was a long friendship before, yes, but that alone is not a reason to spill all secrets, plus there are things, that she had to keep secret due to the oath she swore as she joined the Knight Templar order.
Anyway the much darker secret is kept by MC's father and Hilda his mother.
I can completely understand that you and your wife IRL don't have secrets from each other, as do I with my queen of heart, we even are to some point "ruthless" sincere and open towards each other, (what with our temper is..let's say not boring at all )
to get to this level in the VN MC and Kaija have to grow together so to speak and make their "marital contract"
Edit: ThorinKing MC has really no other option, as to dance to the music of the events unfolding in both world, plus his sister is sucked in as well,

I agree for the most part. My wife and I brought up secrets soon after we moved in together. We spilled our secrets while we were living together before we were married. Neither of us went in to marriage with secrets. It was very difficult, more so for her than me. We both wanted to go in to it eyes open. The time for secrets is before marriage not after it. I know that is an ideal and life is not that black and white.

The fact remains Kaija should never have moved in with the MC if she wasn't serious about the relation or prepared to give up her secrets. She let him waste the prime of his life on her.

That of course makes the parents even more despicable knowing their son was in a dead end relationship, that his girlfriend was not what she seemed, and they supported it. Damn, Deja Vu moment.

Granted - my analysis does assume you'd be willing to join a cause greater than yourself to begin with. Those that would be unwilling to join an organization such as the Templars wouldn't be in the position. Then again, most men will get really bent about being lied to while thinking little of it the other way around - just open your eyes to the world around you if you don't believe that.

Your analysis isn't completely off. I have certainly joined my share of causes when I was healthier. I just have trouble with "most men". I'm not sure most men would but plenty would yes. By the same token, their are plenty of women who do the same thing as well. If I had a coin for every time I have heard a woman say over the years, that she wants an honest man, while she lies and cheats her way through another relationship, I'd be rich.

Thankfully not every woman is the same or I'd be living the lonely old life of a hermit instead of being married to one of the most awesome women I've ever met. I do get your point though and its a fair point. Sorry if I'm being a bit grumpy.

 

[NeroZee]

Btw did anything happen with this character

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she kinda dipped after this and we never really saw her again...

 

[Deleted member 6503042]

Btw did anything happen with this character

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she kinda dipped after this and we never really saw her again...

She is dead. The blonde woman who helped Alex killed her.

 

[Dark Silence]

With the possible exception of @Dark Silence, I think all of you Kaija haters are just salty old misogynists pissed that a woman would dare do to "you" what "you" would have done to her if the roles were reversed.

Not sure how to take this. I'm on my first cup of coffee, so, that's probably why. I really tried to stick with Kaija, but, by the end, I had to restart and play the game differently. You came in after the (I hesitate to call it this)partial rewrite of this. Ceolag added in stuff. The whole childhood segment was added after the fact. Ceo I think was desperate to make things more cohesive. However, for a few of us, it made us feel more at odds with her.

Someone here accused me of goin by personal experience and not MC experience, which isn't totally inaccurate. I'm old, have a lot of life experience, as most of us old fogey's do, but, despite that, I still tried to stay on Kaija's path. There's two things that are hard to look past for me:

1. Lyin
2. Cheatin

In this story only lyin comes into play. Not just Kaija, but the parents also. I don't even care about their reasonin at this point. I just want rid of all of them. People can say they only did it to protect the MC and his sister and I get that. But an entire lifetime of lies? Is just unforgiveable in my opinion. Key words in that sentence: "My opinion." I'm not tryin to shit on anyone else's opinions either.

Anyway, sorry for the book.

 

[Elduriel]

In this story only lyin comes into play.

weeell... how do we know she didn't fuck someone on the job? She certainly wouldn't tell us if that ever happened, and we know where her loyalties are.

 

[Dark Silence]

weeell... how do we know she didn't fuck someone on the job? She certainly wouldn't tell us if that ever happened, and we know where her loyalties are.

I'm not gettin into the whole "What if.." territory. I mean that's a larger area than the Northwest Territories.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

With the possible exception of @Dark Silence, I think all of you Kaija haters are just salty old misogynists pissed that a woman would dare do to "you" what "you" would have done to her if the roles were reversed.

Really? You gonna tag us misogynist because we don't accept to get lied, how woke of you.

weeell... how do we know she didn't fuck someone on the job? She certainly wouldn't tell us if that ever happened, and we know where her loyalties are.

Would not be surprising but that is insignificant compare to what she did, so I would not even care about it at that point. IMO, deal breaker part of cheating is the lying part and she already did that much bigger scale, so fucking someone else would be piss in the ocean.

 

[Maviarab]

I think all of you Kaija haters are just salty old misogynists

And now I remember why I had you on ignore too. How about you keep your bollocks to yourself in the future eh and don't be a prick?

Have a nice day

 

[ThorinKing]

Really? You gonna tag us misogynist because we don't accept to get lied, how woke of you.

Bless your heart! I'm probably the least woke person here, and I'm pointing out that the standard male would "understand" the situation if the roles were reversed - he'd see the need to protect the mission and the person without putting the person in additional danger, but would get royally pissed about the lies because it is the woman lying, not the man - it is an affront to his "manhood" that she has the audacity to "protect" him from the truth or to not turn his world upside down unnecessarily. He's the man! Why does he need to be protected, by, by, by A WOMAN! Makes the macho dude shrivel up and retract.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Bless your heart! I'm probably the least woke person here, and I'm pointing out that the standard male would "understand" the situation if the roles were reversed - he'd see the need to protect the mission and the person without putting the person in additional danger, but would get royally pissed about the lies because it is the woman lying, not the man - it is an affront to his "manhood" that she has the audacity to "protect" him from the truth or to not turn his world upside down unnecessarily. He's the man! Why does he need to be protected, by, by, by A WOMAN! Makes the macho dude shrivel up and retract.

I can't talk for everyone's stand but let me assure you it's definitely not the reason for me. As far as I am aware MC's father is a male and I am crossed with him as much as Kaija if not more, also mother too. I don't fucking caring about their mission or organisation, if they wanna protect it they can do it away from MC's life. The minute they involved him, the minute they deserved all the shit.

And you just assume something and said you are all misogynist to group of people without even care what they really think, I think you are not far away from woke culture as much as you think.

And thanks for the blessing, likewise.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Bless your heart! I'm probably the least woke person here, and I'm pointing out that the standard male would "understand" the situation if the roles were reversed - he'd see the need to protect the mission and the person without putting the person in additional danger, but would get royally pissed about the lies because it is the woman lying, not the man - it is an affront to his "manhood" that she has the audacity to "protect" him from the truth or to not turn his world upside down unnecessarily. He's the man! Why does he need to be protected, by, by, by A WOMAN! Makes the macho dude shrivel up and retract.

Its not something I thought about to be honest. My issue is not about Kaija's capability, or her gender, its about her motivations and actions. Your chasing a path and an attitude that doesn't exist with me at least. I can't speak for others.

 

[Dessolos]

Bless your heart! I'm probably the least woke person here, and I'm pointing out that the standard male would "understand" the situation if the roles were reversed - he'd see the need to protect the mission and the person without putting the person in additional danger, but would get royally pissed about the lies because it is the woman lying, not the man - it is an affront to his "manhood" that she has the audacity to "protect" him from the truth or to not turn his world upside down unnecessarily. He's the man! Why does he need to be protected, by, by, by A WOMAN! Makes the macho dude shrivel up and retract.

I mean im Kaija fan but I do agree with the people that dislike Kaija too. The Kaija haters have a valid reason to dislike her the minute she became our girlfriend even a small lie can sour a relationship depending on the person. The difference between them and me why I like Kaija is simply my personality and im a very understanding and forgiving person without those traits any normal person would probably not like Kaija and move onto a different LI tbh.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

I mean im Kaija fan but I do agree with the people that dislike Kaija too. The Kaija haters have a valid reason to dislike her the minute she became our girlfriend even a small lie can sour a relationship depending on the person. The difference between them and me why I like Kaija is simply my personality and im a very understanding and forgiving person without those traits any normal person would probably not like Kaija and move onto a different LI tbh.

I'm still running a love path save. I don't like Kaija but I don't hate her either. I actually admire her loyalty to her cause. I think she made some poor decisions and deserves to suffer the consequences for those decisions like anyone.

I don't want her for my MC because she can't be loyal to him when her loyalty is to the Templars first. He will always be second and that is not a healthy relationship. How many times do we see divorce because one person is 'married to the job'. Usually men but more and more women these days. On the love path Kaija starts to show doubts about the Templars but at this stage in the story the Templars are still her first commitment.

 

[ThorinKing]

Its not something I thought about to be honest. My issue is not about Kaija's capability, or her gender, its about her motivations and actions. Your chasing a path and an attitude that doesn't exist with me at least. I can't speak for others.

I'm not saying it's everyone - but such a noxious reaction to the character generally speaks to this duality in the way many men look at things based upon what our roles are supposed to be, and while that isn't "make me a sammich then suck my dick before I slap you silly" misogyny, it is the form of it that tells us a woman killed in war is different than a man killed in war, or being torn up using force to defend yourself against a woman that you wouldn't hesitate to use against a man - our brains are just wired to be the protector and ass-kicker, not the protectee and the one that needs to be shielded. So, when those roles get turned on their heads, some react badly.

No, it may not be the only reason - you may just not like redheads, tats (less likely reasons - but there are some...) and, from your comments, the concept of any lie for any reason now causes you to just reject the deal and walk away rather than try to salvage it. One of (I think your) comments about a little lie to get laid was okay but this isn't that (paraphrase) struck me as inconsistent: to say one is okay, while the other is not doesn't really align - but that's me and my moral and ethical compass, and all of us have a slightly different "true north" based on our experiences.

 

[ThorinKing]

I don't fucking caring about their mission or organisation, if they wanna protect it they can do it away from MC's life.

You're right: they should have abandoned him and his sister in a forest rather than try to protect them from the evil of the world and keep them shielded from it for as long as they could. Shame on them for loving their children!

And, I guess anyone from a "machismo" culture sees anyone that has a basic ability to empathize and understand as "woke". How sad.

 

[Elduriel]

No, it may not be the only reason - you may just not like redheads, tats (less likely reasons - but there are some...) and, from your comments, the concept of any lie for any reason now causes you to just reject the deal and walk away rather than try to salvage it. One of (I think your) comments about a little lie to get laid was okay but this isn't that (paraphrase) struck me as inconsistent: to say one is okay, while the other is not doesn't really align - but that's me and my moral and ethical compass, and all of us have a slightly different "true north" based on our experiences.

oh come off it... yeah just one lie. She continuously lied to her boyfriend during their entire relationship when it came to her work, and more than that their entire relationship started off and was based on this lie. You don't do that to your partner and expect to "salvage" anything afterwards. She straight up tells you she'll be always first and foremost loyal to the Templars. So fuck her.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

No, it may not be the only reason - you may just not like redheads, tats (less likely reasons - but there are some...) and, from your comments, the concept of any lie for any reason now causes you to just reject the deal and walk away rather than try to salvage it. One of (I think your) comments about a little lie to get laid was okay but this isn't that (paraphrase) struck me as inconsistent: to say one is okay, while the other is not doesn't really align - but that's me and my moral and ethical compass, and all of us have a slightly different "true north" based on our experiences.

Chasing girls to get laid was 40 years ago when I was young and my morality was governed by my dick. Even then I knocked back more than I said yes too. I wasn't about screwing girlfriends or ex-girlfriends of friends or relatives. Sadly some off my friends and relatives were not so considerate towards me.

I didn't say my comment was okay, I was pointing out the difference between stupid things we do in life compared to deliberate actions that seriously fuck people up as in what Kaija did and what his parents did. It was never going to end well and they knew it but did it anyway.

I'm not comfortable with the timing of the MC picking up the girl in the bar and fucking her either when his relationship is still in the grey zone. I wouldn't do it in RL. Its not going to be given much air time because its an optional event and not part of the main story line. I didn't come across it until my third play through. Although I'm wondering if you will see that as some latent form of misogyny or some such thing.

Its been interesting but 2:30AM and time for me to get some sleep. Have fun.

 

[ThorinKing]

oh come off it... yeah just one lie. She continuously lied to her boyfriend during their entire relationship when it came to her work, and more than that their entire relationship started off and was based on this lie. You don't do that to your partner and expect to "salvage" anything afterwards. She straight up tells you she'll be always first and foremost loyal to the Templars. So fuck her.

 

[xapican]

I don't want her for my MC because she can't be loyal to him when her loyalty is to the Templars first. He will always be second and that is not a healthy relationship. How many times do we see divorce because one person is 'married to the job'. Usually men but more and more women these days. On the love path Kaija starts to show doubts about the Templars but at this stage in the story the Templars are still her first commitment.

Yes, you told us about your Love save path. And in my books, that speaks a lot about your nobility.
This is mainly the point were I blatantly fail, to look through your prisma, even more on the Love path, I like to be fair, to everybody, (what is a very difficult task) I might be not so understanding nor forgiving as Dessolos describe himself.
on the Love path you can see that Kaijas prioritys start to sway.
In my way to view the world, I know that priorities change, and if they don't well..., blessings with cosmic "love" and the paths separate, and just this way is that on the "Love path" makes me give her a second chance, with all the caution given of course.
In my contemplations, I also take into account tha Kaija opend up as It was clear that MC, were introduced to the secrets of the order, and she did this only because she had Backup, in this, (I suspect that Hilda, and Linnae decided to take him on board due to the situation)
The other thing what picks my interest is that both, "father and mother" are High ranked Knight Templars, wouldn't be surprised that the propsal from the father towards Kaija, were to give his "wive" a bit more of air Hilda, was the one who protected both, MC and Jess as they were little childs, and as they started to grow up and discovering their own path, they needed an extra "Bodyguard".

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Yes, you told us about your Love save path. And in my books, that speaks a lot about your nobility.
This is mainly the point were I blatantly fail, to look through your prisma, even more on the Love path, I like to be fair, to everybody, (what is a very difficult task) I might be not so understanding nor forgiving as Dessolos describe himself.
on the Love path you can see that Kaijas prioritys start to sway.
In my way to view the world, I know that priorities change, and if they don't well..., blessings with cosmic "love" and the paths separate, and just this way is that on the "Love path" makes me give her a second chance, with all the caution given of course.
In my contemplations, I also take into account tha Kaija opend up as It was clear that MC, were introduced to the secrets of the order, and she did this only because she had Backup, in this, (I suspect that Hilda, and Linnae decided to take him on board due to the situation)
The other thing what picks my interest is that both, "father and mother" are High ranked Knight Templars, wouldn't be surprised that the propsal from the father towards Kaija, were to give his "wive" a bit more of air Hilda, was the one who protected both, MC and Jess as they were little childs, and as they started to grow up and discovering their own path, they needed an extra "Bodyguard".

I wasn't going to. I gave it some serious thought (a bit too much for a game lol). I'm willing to cut Kaija enough slack to see if she can redeem herself as have other LIs in similar situations in other games. I see value in following her love path. I don't always follow every LI path in games, just the ones I find interesting enough I want to know more or what happens with them.

The love path is particularly interesting because we see Kaija's trust of the Templars waiver. The trust is still in place but its a little shaken. How will that play out?

How will Ceolag bring the couple back together despite the rift between them. I think the MC is a fool if he does, but I'm interested enough to want to know what will happen.

Kaija is still an interesting character, I don't have to like her to recognise that. Interesting does not have to equal 'liking' a character.

A lot about this game fascinates me, moral questions aside. Ceolag has a done a fantastic job world building and developing characters. Kaija is controversial but look at the attention she has generated. Its good work. I'd be over the moon to create a character that generates as much attention as Kaija.

Or I could just need more sleep