VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[ename144]

Thanks for the long post, ename
I've taken my notes for future updates.
One thing I'd like to address is the ending part. I got that suggestion in Beta too. With pretty much the same reasoning.
It's not an oversight, it's done on purpose in this case. While I understand the demand of the player to see everything, it doesn't fit Medb's character.
She's the one in charge at that moment and it's her decision. Not Finnabair's, not MC's. And just because you're friends it doesn't automatically mean you're allowed to participate in that specific scene.
I had seen that happen a few times myself. Even very close friends or family weren't allowed to participate.
It would be completely against Medb's character to invite MC if she's not convinced about him.
The "MC could watch from a distance" is very close to a plothole imo. How would he know where and when? How would he get there while being considered almost an enemy at that point? Ailill could bring him in... against Medb's and potentially Mab's will?!

No... character motivation trumps everything in this scene for me. Every other solution would be a stretch at best.

HOWEVER:
I understand that it might be too hard to get that scene even if you're trying for it. With a wiggle room of 2 points and 1 point being very "unintuitive" to get there's not a lot of room for mistakes.
I'll drop the requirement for that scene to 13 points which is in line with all other LI's thresholds for their story (~75%).
The Steam version will get rolled out with that change and Patreon will get it with the next update (or a minor update...).

Thanks again for your long and exhaustive feedback.
Cheers,
Ceo

You're welcome, of course; feedback is the least I can do given how much I'm enjoying the game. And I very much appreciate you taking the time to respond.

I can believe Medb would bar people from the event based on her own feelings rather than what she might have thought Finnabair would want; it's one of the reasons I'm not overly enamored of Medb. I still think the game suffers in the absence of some sort of capstone to tie up the emotional threads of the chapter, but dropping the Medb point requirement to 13 is a big step in the right direction. It should give players a decent chance to see the scene on a general run and an almost certain chance to see the scene on a Medb-focused run. That substantially increases the odds a player will recognize that there IS some closure to the chapter even if they don't see it on their preferred route. So thank you very much for that.

As far as my suggestion of the MC watching from a distance, I didn't mean to imply he'd sneak in without permission, just that it might be a way to invite him without letting him intrude on the ceremony proper. Sort of like the difference between lining the roads to wave at a celebrity marriage vs being inside the church. Just an idea, and it's a moot point now.

Anyway, thanks again for sharing your thoughts, and good luck on the game. I'm looking forward to Chapter 6.

See above. I wouldn't, making a precedent Ceo everytime someone cries like a little girl because they didn't get/see exactly what they think they should. Stick to 'your' vision and decisions. if it was easy to get, then what's the point of the impact of the scene?

I do take your point, but I don't think refusing to make ANY changes for fear of the slippery slope is a good idea. No one is perfect; mistakes will happen despite our best efforts. Doubling down when someone points one out rather than correcting the mistake is a recipe for disaster.

Obviously it's up to Ceolag to determine what is a mistake and what is a plot point (or at least a necessary evil), but making that sort of tough decision is why we pay him the not-as-big-as-he-deserves bucks.

 

[PaxHadrian17]

I checked back when this was posted as a dev update and it did not show up here so I am posting an old dev update with information re: light and dark elves -- Ceolag's take on these and more:

You must be registered to see the links

Hey there,

I had this idea for another BTS to shorten the wait for Chapter 5 a bit.

DISCLAIMER FIRST:
The following text will contain slight spoilers for the background of my Elves.
Nothing important or story-relevant, but if you want to experience everything within the game first, skip this text and maybe come back after release.

As you might have noticed, I use Norse mythology quite a bit for my story.
The idea for the "function" of Neverwhere is basically inspired by what Norse mythology calls Yggdrasil although my version connects more than nine worlds.

The same is true for my version of Elves. I based the idea on Norse mythology and did my own thing after that.
Following the Prose Edda, there are Light Elves (Ljósálfar) and Dark/Black Elves (Dökkálfar/Svartálfar) although it's not entirely clear if it really means Dark Elves or "just" inhabitants of Svartálfheimr which might mean/include Dwarves.

Of course, I have my "own" idea of the Svartálfar but that one has to wait for future content.
In TNT Book 1, you'll only meet the Ljósálfar and this text is about them.
The homeworld of the Ljósálfar is Álfheimr and it's connected to Neverwhere.
When starting to gather ideas for Book 1 and thinking about how I want my Elves to portray, everything between "Mystical woodland creatures" and "Warhammer 40k Sci-Fi-Elves" was possible. From Bows to Laserguns, from basic hut in the trees to cyberpunk city.

The only thing that was clear from the beginning was that they'll be a long-living species.
My fascination for the conflict between a long-living species and one with a shorter lifespan goes back to R.A. Salvatore's Legend of Drizzt. In one of the books, Innovindil (a female Moon Elf) talks to Drizzt (who is in love with a human woman - Cattie-Brie) about what it means to live a long life together with species with shorter lifespans.
I loved that conflict back then and still do so it was an easy decision to include it in my game too.

Outside of the long lifespan, nothing was set in stone. Some things even changed a bit throughout the development of the first 3 chapters.
I kept asking myself the same questions over and over again.
How would a society look like if the individuals had literally thousands of years to live?
Would they develop faster compared to humans? Or slower?
Would such a species have a significant technological advantage?
Or would they even be behind "us" because "it worked in the past"?
How would being able to use magic openly influence it?
Why is Neverwhere not overrun by billions of Elves if they live that long?
Would there be the same conflict between generations (old vs young) as we have it? And will it be even worse if it has a thousand years to develop?
Over time my idea for the Elves went from typical Fantasy Elves to Cyberpunk Elves to what they're now: A society in between. Between tradition and technological progress. Between individuals who've been alive for more than a thousand years and ones who were born into our "modern" times.
Chapter 5 will pick up a few of those things and will give you a first impression of the image I came up with.
It will also give you the first few pieces of backstory for the conflict between Elves and Humans and a certain LI - if you make the correct choices.

Cheers,
Ceolag

Also - props to Ceolag for getting some of his inspiration for Alfar relationships with shorter lived species from the RA Salvatore classics with Drizzt and Catie-Brie!

For those who like the word Epic - IMO - Drizzt Do'Urden is an Epic hero!

Cheers!!

 

[ename144]

About the funeral scene, I'm pretty neutral,I had no problems to get it, also don't really understood what was Enames point, I agree about bringing up the Information that Finabair is the daughter, I think that should be adressed, at some point.
My question is if someone without any for me understoodable reason, decides not to go the Ljosalfar, or to just close that door what alternative has this player to achieve the Story outcome, or to prevent a war, ?

I don't want to pour further fuel on a fire that seems to be dying, but my point was this: if you play through the chapter without seeing the "Daughter of the Sun" scene (and assuming you spared Finnabair's life), it feels very much like the television cut out in the final act of an episode. The events of the story come to a sudden halt, with no chance for narrative or (especially) emotional resonance. Seeing the "Daughter of the Sun" scene changes that experience *completely* - in ways that extend far beyond Medb. IMHO, that's too large a difference to be healthy. It's one thing for a chapter to be longer or more satisfying if you're on a certain path, but it should never feel gutted unless you're on a path.

I'm not trying to make Medb's path easier or horn in on her exclusive content, I just want the other routes to get *something* to help put the events of the chapter into a context beyond 'stuff happened.' There are plenty of ways that could be done beyond lowering the requirements to see the final scene, but most of them are a lot more work for Ceolag.

 

[Malicre]

I'm not trying to make Medb's path easier or horn in on her exclusive content, I just want the other routes to get *something* to help put the events of the chapter into a context beyond 'stuff happened.' There are plenty of ways that could be done beyond lowering the requirements to see the final scene, but most of them are a lot more work for Ceolag.

I mean you going to the funeral doesn't even make sense unless you we're doing Medb / Finnabair content. Your not suppose to have everything if your not willing to play threw their parts of the game. You don't see me complaining because i don't go for Kaija or the red head or the nerdy girl and i miss a lot of content by doing that but it is what it is.

It actually does feel like you want to be "shoe horned" in content for paths your not even on.

 

[ename144]

I mean you going to the funeral doesn't even make sense unless you we're doing Medb / Finnabair content. Your not suppose to have everything if your not willing to play threw their parts of the game. You don't see me complaining because i don't go for Kaija or the red head or the nerdy girl and i miss a lot of content by doing that but it is what it is.

It actually does feel like you want to be "shoe horned" in content for paths your not even on.

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

Forget the funeral. Have the MC meet Lugh on his way out of the city, or even just show the MC packing his bags and wondering to himself what he accomplished by coming to Alfheim. There has to be something to tie up the events of the chapter at the end that doesn't involve Medb, because however important Medb is, she is not Finnabair! Saying goodbye to the latter should not be tied irrevocably to the former.

 

[Tremonia]

Saying goodbye to the latter should not be tied irrevocably to the former.

Why? Medb is family, the mother of Finnabair. MC is..., well,... nothing. Just a friend, maybe. Finnabair reports everything to Medb. That's why you get Medb points when you're talking to Finnabair. When Finnabair's mother don't like MC enough, why should she invite him to one of the intimatest moments of a family?

 

[Malicre]

Why? Medb is family, the mother of Finnabair. MC is..., well,... nothing. Just a friend, maybe. Finnabair reports everything to Medb. That's why you get Medb points when you're talking to Finnabair. When Finnabair's mother don't like MC enough, why should she invite him to one of the intimatest moments of a family?

I actually thought about that earlier today and your right but i also believe the pregnancy clinic scene that someone posted earlier that seemed to of been scrapped made Medb realize that the MC was more then just a "friend" to Finnabair, hence why he got the invitation.

 

[metamorphMP]

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

Forget the funeral. Have the MC meet Lugh on his way out of the city, or even just show the MC packing his bags and wondering to himself what he accomplished by coming to Alfheim. There has to be something to tie up the events of the chapter at the end that doesn't involve Medb, because however important Medb is, she is not Finnabair! Saying goodbye to the latter should not be tied irrevocably to the former.

You keep emphasizing that she is your friend and it gives you some rights.

So, hypothetically your friend dies in some accident, his parents/family don't like you and they not only don't invite you - they explicitly tell you to fuck off, and instead of respecting the family's decision and their need for privacy you decide to barge in... not sure, I believe you...

On the other hand, I dunno were are you from, so maybe in your country and culture that's fine...

 

[ename144]

WARNING: Blatant, unmarked spoilers for Chapter 5 ahead.

Why? Medb is family, the mother of Finnabair. MC is..., well,... nothing. Just a friend, maybe. Finnabair reports everything to Medb. That's why you get Medb points when you're talking to Finnabair. When Finnabair's mother don't like MC enough, why should she invite him to one of the intimatest moments of a family?

First of all, that's not really a fair argument since someone who misses the last scene would not know Medb is Finnabair's mother. To them, she dies and the the story ends without any wrap-up. There's no reason to assume things would be different if only Medb thought the MC was hotter.

But more importantly, why should I give a shit what Medb's mother thinks of the MC just because she's Finnabair's mother? Sure, he can be disinvited to her funeral but the MC should still want to grieve on his own and he doesn't need anyone's permission to do that. Indeed, an MC who liked Finnabair but disliked Medb should be that much more invested in grieving on his own since he is suffering not only the loss of a friend but also the injustice of Medb's intolerance.

Imagine if Jessica had died a sudden death at the end of the chapter; would you accept it when the MC just shrugs his shoulders unless you chose the nearly all the calmest possible reaction to his parents' idiocy up to that point? They are her parents after all, and the MC is just (by your own choices!) her estranged brother. If Templar simps get a touching sendoff and MCs who take those buffoons to task get a "To be continued" screen, would that really make for a satisfying chapter?

I don't think so, yet that's what you're advocating for.

I actually thought about that earlier today and your right but i also believe the pregnancy clinic scene that someone posted earlier that seemed to of been scrapped made Medb realize that the MC was more then just a "friend" to Finnabair, hence why he got the invitation.

I don't think that can be the case since fucking Finnabair isn't a factor in getting the invitation. You will lose a Medb point if you don't flirt with Finnabair right from the start, but you can afford to miss that point (though you have precious little wiggle room), and you can still turn Finnabair down when the time comes without consequence.

Also, am I the only one who finds it a little squicky that Medb finds it hot if you flirt with her daughter? I am? Right, never mind then.

You keep emphasizing that she is your friend and it gives you some rights.

So, hypothetically your friend dies in some accident, his parents/family don't like you and they not only don't invite you - they explicitly tell you to fuck off, and instead of respecting the family's decision and their need for privacy you decide to barge in... not sure, I believe you...

On the other hand, I dunno were are you from, so maybe in your country and culture that's fine...

Why does everyone think I want the MC to barge into a funeral? I've said specifically again that is not the case! This isn't about the MC's legal rights, it's about narrative closure! A character I care about dies, and the narrative simply ends with absolutely no acknowledgement of how big a deal this is... unless I racked up a bunch of points with a different character. That's just frustrating! For crying out loud, even Obi-Wan Kenobi got a few seconds for Luke to mourn him in Star Wars, and that guy was *the* quintessential doomed mentor! How can it be so confusing that I want the equivalent of that scene for Finnabair?!

But whatever, let's look at the scenario you laid out. I don't know where you are from, but in the stories I've seen, the parents barring me from my friend's funeral over my race/religion/nationality/etc would normally be seen as a failure of the parents, not myself. So I do find it a little strange that everyone seems eager to jump to their defense here.

 

[motseer]

WARNING: Blatant, unmarked spoilers for Chapter 5 ahead.


First of all, that's not really a fair argument since someone who misses the last scene would not know Medb is Finnabair's mother. To them, she dies and the the story ends without any wrap-up. There's no reason to assume things would be different if only Medb thought the MC was hotter.

But more importantly, why should I give a shit what Medb's mother thinks of the MC just because she's Finnabair's mother? Sure, he can be disinvited to her funeral but the MC should still want to grieve on his own and he doesn't need anyone's permission to do that. Indeed, an MC who liked Finnabair but disliked Medb should be that much more invested in grieving on his own since he is suffering not only the loss of a friend but also the injustice of Medb's intolerance.

Imagine if Jessica had died a sudden death at the end of the chapter; would you accept it when the MC just shrugs his shoulders unless you chose the nearly all the calmest possible reaction to his parents' idiocy up to that point? They are her parents after all, and the MC is just (by your own choices!) her estranged brother. If Templar simps get a touching sendoff and MCs who take those buffoons to task get a "To be continued" screen, would that really make for a satisfying chapter?

I don't think so, yet that's what you're advocating for.



I don't think that can be the case since fucking Finnabair isn't a factor in getting the invitation. You will lose a Medb point if you don't flirt with Finnabair right from the start, but you can afford to miss that point (though you have precious little wiggle room), and you can still turn Finnabair down when the time comes without consequence.

Also, am I the only one who finds it a little squicky that Medb finds it hot if you flirt with her daughter? I am? Right, never mind then.



Why does everyone think I want the MC to barge into a funeral? I've said specifically again that is not the case! This isn't about the MC's legal rights, it's about narrative closure! A character I care about dies, and the narrative simply ends with absolutely no acknowledgement of how big a deal this is... unless I racked up a bunch of points with a different character. That's just frustrating! For crying out loud, even Obi-Wan Kenobi got a few seconds for Luke to mourn him in Star Wars, and that guy was *the* quintessential doomed mentor! How can it be so confusing that I want the equivalent of that scene for Finnabair?!

But whatever, let's look at the scenario you laid out. I don't know where you are from, but in the stories I've seen, the parents barring me from my friend's funeral over my race/religion/nationality/etc would normally be seen as a failure of the parents, not myself. So I do find it a little strange that everyone seems eager to jump to their defense here.

Sounds to me like you need to write a better story of your own, dude. It probably won't take much more work than the walls of text you've been posting to disparage this one. I'll even give it a review. Jus' Sayin'

 

[Tremonia]

Imagine if Jessica had died a sudden death at the end of the chapter; would you accept it when the MC just shrugs his shoulders unless you chose the nearly all the calmest possible reaction to his parents' idiocy up to that point?

Jessica is his SISTER, not his friend. And yes, I would accept, when my parents decides on the funeral of my sister aren't any not so close friends allowed. Not so close friends? Of course. Finnabair and MC had five(?) weeks of her several centuries long life together. Forced by her mother. So yes, the word of the family matters more as some selfish feelings of MC. He has to respect the culture of the Ljosálfar and also the wish of the family.

And just to be clear, if one of my daughters would die, and some dude she knews for a few weeks would demanding to come to the funeral, I would question how he was parented. That's disrespectful as fuck.

 

[Maviarab]

Why? Medb is family, the mother of Finnabair. MC is..., well,... nothing. Just a friend, maybe. Finnabair reports everything to Medb. That's why you get Medb points when you're talking to Finnabair. When Finnabair's mother don't like MC enough, why should she invite him to one of the intimatest moments of a family?

Just give it up Moni...just wants to argue for the sake of it, and not for the first time.

 

[Punto]

Strange Kaspersky reports “.exe” infected. I'll reload the program. So be careful.

 

[Punto]

I will check the whole file with Virus-Total.

 

[Maviarab]

I will check the whole file with Virus-Total.

You known there's an edit button right?

That aside, is there a reason you're using bright yellow? Whatever, if you downloaded this on the day it was uploaded the file is indeed infected. Otherwise, all links in the op are currently fine. This is well known, everyone knew at the time...

So would suggest just redownloading it again and delete the one you have. Then, nuke Kaspersky, it's as bad as Norton.

 

[Tremonia]

But don't tell him it's not the latest version of the game.

 

[Teal80]

Any guesses at Fiona’s real name?

I am postulating based on her pausing at the F when saying her name for the first time on the different playthroughs I’ve made.

There are many references to Norse mythology but also Celtic/Irish mythology (Queen Medbh was married to Alill and had a daughter named Finnabair in Irish Mythology, Lugh was also an Irish God of Nobility… I assume this has already been spotted)

Given that the dog’s name is Orla - another female Irish name I’m sticking with the Irish supernatural naming for F…iona.

So I’m going with Flidais, Goddess of Fertility and cattle.

Could also be Fuamnach, but she was a witch and came to a bad end so I doubt that.

 

[Maviarab]

Any guesses at Fiona’s real name?

I am postulating based on her pausing at the F when saying her name for the first time on the different playthroughs I’ve made.

There are many references to Norse mythology but also Celtic/Irish mythology (Queen Medbh was married to Alill and had a daughter named Finnabair in Irish Mythology, Lugh was also an Irish God of Nobility… I assume this has already been spotted)

Given that the dog’s name is Orla - another female Irish name I’m sticking with the Irish supernatural naming for F…iona.

So I’m going with Flidais, Goddess of Fertility and cattle.

Could also be Fuamnach, but she was a witch and came to a bad end so I doubt that.

Possible....

https://f95zone.to/threads/the-neverwhere-tales-lore-legends.219419/

 

[Dark Silence]

Any guesses at Fiona’s real name?

I am postulating based on her pausing at the F when saying her name for the first time on the different playthroughs I’ve made.

There are many references to Norse mythology but also Celtic/Irish mythology (Queen Medbh was married to Alill and had a daughter named Finnabair in Irish Mythology, Lugh was also an Irish God of Nobility… I assume this has already been spotted)

Given that the dog’s name is Orla - another female Irish name I’m sticking with the Irish supernatural naming for F…iona.

So I’m going with Flidais, Goddess of Fertility and cattle.

Could also be Fuamnach, but she was a witch and came to a bad end so I doubt that.

Or and probably the right one, if she's based on a Goddess, Fódla.

 

[Maviarab]

Or and probably the right one, if she's based on a Goddess, Fódla.

This more likely as we think Fiona is Tuatha Dé Danann.

But again, large conversation about all this type of stuff in the other thread so it's easier to find info as it tends to get lost in here quickly.