VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

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TrixRabbit

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Possibly but if I remember right, MC asked one of the elves if dark elves were the bad ones and they said something like 'no, they're the good ones' - which would make it odd if they're working with hellspawn.
 

Adhdclassic

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Possibly but if I remember right, MC asked one of the elves if dark elves were the bad ones and they said something like 'no, they're the good ones' - which would make it odd if they're working with hellspawn.
They could have changed they did disappear. There is possibly a bigger story. Remember each race believed they created that sword so it's possible the story is not fact. Something we will have to wait for.
 

Rehwyn

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Possibly but if I remember right, MC asked one of the elves if dark elves were the bad ones and they said something like 'no, they're the good ones' - which would make it odd if they're working with hellspawn.
I didn't quite remember this dialogue, so looked it up. While close, the actual lines are:
Medb: "Svartálfar, correct. At least we think they still exist. Svartálfaheimr has been closed off from all known connections to Neverwhere for a very long time."
MC: "Why?"
Medb: "I have no idea."
MC: "And they are the bad guys?"
Medb: "No, you are the bad guys."
So she doesn't say they're good, just takes a dig at the Templars/humans. Since they haven't been seen or heard from in millennia, I suspect they're just taken as neutral or a non-issue. Or Medb is keeping information concealed from MC still at this point.
They could have changed they did disappear. There is possibly a bigger story. Remember each race believed they created that sword so it's possible the story is not fact. Something we will have to wait for.
Indeed. There's also a pretty common fantasy trope of long-isolated races becoming twisted over time. It'll be interesting to see if that's the case here, or something of that nature.
 
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Grumpy Old Aussie

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I'm curious if people with this perspective would view things differently if the situation was grounded more in reality than fantasy.

For example, if Kaija was like... a secret CIA operative protecting you from international crime syndicates that had a grudge against your parents. Personally, it'd be upsetting but quickly forgivable. The only potential romantic partners she could have while being transparent without breaking other vows would be CIA operative within the same operational unit. And your parents specifically told her not to tell you. So it's easy for me to empathize with the conflict she must have felt wanting to be honest with you as romantic feelings grew but not being able to without becoming foresworn or even potentially putting you in danger.

Yes, learning she's been dishonest would hurt, probably quite a bit. But if it was clear that she was remorseful and wanted to tell you but couldn't, I'd likely be quick to forgive with the caveat that going forward we're in it together.
You missed my point though...the perspective has not changed, just the setting.

You still have no idea why she would really be with you, job, love...anything else...also, just like Kaija, how can she protect you when half the time she is never actually there....so there is no perspective change, nothing has changed.

Yes you are correct, in real life they would be replaced, they would not be able to just 'resign', it would just be 50 shades of very messy (as it is in the game) but the bottom line remains, you have led a life that is a lie. Like all the bullshit you read on social media regarding kids and finding out it isn't yours or that your wife cheated 15 years earlier. Your whole entire relationship is a lie and is based and built upon lies. So no, I wouldn't care how much she said she loved me, whether we had kids or not or how damn hot she was...I'd check out.

The setting really doesn't matter all that much, nor the perspective, does it.

Edit: Just like to add while I remember, my good friend Grumpy Old Aussie mentioned Steph in LoF. Very different situation. She went MIA and quiet on her bosses for almost 2 years...becuase she loved him and put him first. She was subsequently arrested for it....snuck back out for that final day on the beach to sneak the letter to him. She left again as she realised her situation was untennable and had to leave him. Should she have told him..and then left? That's a difficult one...but her redemtion arc made sense somewhat and she wanted out of the organisation to live her life.

Can't say the same for Miss Kaija now can we (or certainly not yet at least...even on the love path..she has no intention of leaving the templars...).


All I can say to the Kaija forgivers is, you're more of a man than I am...or more idiotic to forgive the level of lies that affect your life, affect your 'actual beating heart physical life' and must like being walked all over by a (in this particular instance) woman who does what she likes knowing she can sweet talk you into forgiving her....been there done that shit and if a woman lies to me about which shop she went into and whether she bought nail polish or not I'm gone. There is NEVER a reason for lies in a relatiosnhip (otherwise, in reality, you really don't actually have a relationship). Lie about simple shit? Who knows what big stuff they'd happily cover up. Being quick to forgive, easily gloss over shit, won't make your life any easier in the long run and seriousloy, have some self-respect.

This also applies to both sexes btw before any idiot tries to acuse me of sexism or misogyny. To all the usual suspect trolls in this thread, this is NOT because she is a woman.....it's because she is a fucking liar and you cannot trust liars. Their sex is irelevent.
I have been talking about Kaija with a good friend I recently converted to Neverwhere. He was an ex-operative and disgreed that Kaija should have come clean earlier. Having been ex-military myself and worked for the government where secrets were concerned. I do concede and see the point re-Kaija and her work secrets. I agree with Mav who pointed out Steph in LOF was tied up with her job, and its a very tough situation. Hence why Steph was redeemed later in the story.

Here is the but, the Templar leadership wanted Kaija to get close to the MC. To Kaijas credit she said no she wouldn't do that. The MC's father went in to bat for her over the issue. After that was cleared up, Kaija was to persue her FRIENDSHIP with the MC. That was her orders.

Kaija didn't do that, She started a relationship anyway and then went the next step and moved in with him. Kaija decided to deceive the MC by becoming involved with the MC despite her orders not too. On all the paths she did this because it was, quote, easier. On the love path she falls in love with him later, but it doesn't matter. It's an asshole act by anyone, as Mav said, male or female. Even if the MC was gay and Kaija was a dude, its still a fucked up thing to deliberately do to someone. It has nothing to do with keeping secrets because of her job, she deliberately started that relationship and jumped in to bed with him to make it easy on herself with no thought of consequences for the MC. She did it contrary to her orders, because that issue was specifically dealt with at Council level. I wouldn't want her as a friend, let alone a life partner/wife in RL or a fantasy situation. Of course, the Templar council weren't going to complain because they wanted her to do that in the first place. That doesn't excuse Kaija.

I hope Kaija is redeemed, but I can't see a path to it, but Ceo has a pretty devious mind, so you never know in Neverwhere.

I think the parents are worse. That let their son get involved with a woman they know didn't love him (On all paths). How can you do that to your child. They should have intervened, removed Kaija and appointed someone else to watch over him. On the love path, just because she came to love him later, does not excuse them.

PS I love you too Mav :cool:
 

TrixRabbit

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I still think they're going to become important as a faction, but I don't think they've allied with the hellspawn or anything - no real reason to believe that - but I think that MC is one, or part of one and I think that's going to be important to their return (lost prince maybe? something like that?)
 

TrixRabbit

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I'm just hoping to to put MC's parents and Kaija in a position where it doesn't matter if they "redeem themselves" or not. I'm hoping to bring down the Templars - permanently, and entirely. If they want to redeem themselves while I do that, that'd be cool - but I'm not planning for it. Other than that I just hope they stay out of the way. I'd rather not kill them (unless they were involved in Finns death - in which case I will bronze their skull and send it to Finn's father as a momento.)
 

Wolfram99

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I think the parents are worse. That let their son get involved with a woman they know didn't love him (On all paths). How can you do that to your child. They should have intervened, removed Kaija and appointed someone else to watch over him. On the love path, just because she came to love him later, does not excuse them.
Well, the parents want to protect their kids. So they are perfectly fine with their top tier upcoming operative being the protector of their kid, regardless of what it actually means for MC.
To them Kaija did nothing wrong since in their minds the vote for forced relationship has failed, so whatever happened between Kaija and MC will be considered as "natural" by parents.

Do we know under whom did she actually serve? Since it may have been someone who voted or even pushed for the forced relationship, trying to use the council vote to strengthen Kaija's forced relationship. And being a word lawyer, the Council voted that she doesn't need to do it, not that she shouldn't or couldn't......
 

Grumpy Old Aussie

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Well, the parents want to protect their kids. So they are perfectly fine with their top tier upcoming operative being the protector of their kid, regardless of what it actually means for MC.
To them Kaija did nothing wrong since in their minds the vote for forced relationship has failed, so whatever happened between Kaija and MC will be considered as "natural" by parents.

Do we know under whom did she actually serve? Since it may have been someone who voted or even pushed for the forced relationship, trying to use the council vote to strengthen Kaija's forced relationship. And being a word lawyer, the Council voted that she doesn't need to do it, not that she shouldn't or couldn't......
The honorable Wolfram has raised two good points.

1. Sure Kaija and the parents may have protected their son, but that protection was only on a physical level. They certainly didn't protect him emotionally by letting Kaija get close to their son and entering a serious relationship even though she didn't love him. They were living together, its a pretty serious step for a couple, well should have been except it was a deception. They didn't protect his emotional state by lying to him as an adult (or as a child IMO).

2. I concede to your word soup point in that she may have obeyed the letter of the law, but she certainly didn't obey the spirit of the law. Jumping in to that relationship was only going to end one way for the MC emotionally.
 

Wolfram99

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The honorable Wolfram has raised two good points.

1. They certainly didn't protect him emotionally by letting Kaija get close to their son and entering a serious relationship even though she didn't love him.
Well, do we actually know if the parents knew that it was fake all along? To me the parents were blissfully ignorant to the Kaija's motivations of being in a relationship with MC. They probably hoped that she actually caught the love bug for their son, so they didn't want to startle that nest with questions of "wtf are you doing with our son" since that would lead to uncovering of way more shit than they want to handle, and in their minds they hope/believe that the relationship is actually "natural"
 
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Grumpy Old Aussie

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Well, do we actually know if the parents knew that it was fake all along? To me the parents were blissfully ignorant to the Kaija's motivations of being in a relationship with MC. They probably hoped that she actually caught the love bug for their son, so they didn't want to startle that nest with questions of "wtf are you doing with our son" since that would lead to uncovering of way more shit than they want to handle, and in their minds they hope/believe that the relationship is actually "natural"
Will stop making sense! Shit, now I have to go away and have a think about it. Don't you have icicles to knock down from the ceiling or something :p :ROFLMAO:
 

TrixRabbit

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Also, this may just be me being paranoid now but ... in CH1 - Dude chases Kajia and knocks her down and MC shoots him (I assume we all shot him ... dunno). Her initial reaction and second reaction are very different. She initially says "OMG ... what did you do?" and then MC says something like "What do you mean, you killed all those other guys" and then her tone seems to change to something more like ... "well but I'm trained for it, you shouldn't have to do it." Anyone think something was up there (beyond what was on the surface)? Was that dude supposed to live for some reason? Was he an asset for someone? Or maybe MC just isn't supposed to shed blood or things will happen? ... Don't know, could be looking for conspiracies where there's nothing now but ... ?
 

Wolfram99

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Also, this may just be me being paranoid now but ... in CH1 - Dude chases Kajia and knocks her down and MC shoots him (I assume we all shot him ... dunno). Her initial reaction and second reaction are very different. She initially says "OMG ... what did you do?" and then MC says something like "What do you mean, you killed all those other guys" and then her tone seems to change to something more like ... "well but I'm trained for it, you shouldn't have to do it." Anyone think something was up there (beyond what was on the surface)? Was that dude supposed to live for some reason? Was he an asset for someone? Or maybe MC just isn't supposed to shed blood or things will happen? ... Don't know, could be looking for conspiracies where there's nothing now but ... ?
I would say that the Kaija has taken the protector role in the relationship, so she thinks she should handle all the dirty work. So her seeing her BF actually murder someone is like watching her BF lose his innocence.
 

TrixRabbit

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I would say that the Kaija has taken the protector role in the relationship, so she thinks she should handle all the dirty work. So her seeing her BF actually murder someone is like watching her BF lose his innocence.
Don't know. It might be that, it might be nothing ... just something to bear in mind I guess because it's not like there's hard proof of anything, or can get any unless something else happens. She just seems to catch herself and change her tone really quickly.
 

ename144

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I think, he is refering to the Kaija love path.
Oh another point to consider, and not meant as an attack to anyone, we all talk about Kaijas dishonesty, but not about ours (MC) i want to know how much of the players here did a Kaija Monogamous path, or do the same for the other girls (meaning not getting the Hot scenes spread trough out this chapter)
I have three save paths for the game, all monogamous. My "main" path went for Kaija since I generally try to accept it when an AVN sticks us with a starting SO. There's obviously a lot of work that needs to be done, but I'm willing to give Kaija a second chance since she was caught in something of a no-win scenario (on the love path, anyway). The other paths are for Fiona (my favorite thus far) and Elea (likeable, but just not clicking for me).

While their paths have been slow, they're deliberate and 'emotional' enough that it feels natural to focus on only one girl at a time. Medb is interesting as a frenemy, but not someone I have any desire to romance, and none of the side-girls have been particularly appealing, either. So this is one of the easier AVNs to maintain monogamous paths in.


Yeah, I think one thing this game does well is create groups that aren't monolithically good or evil. The Templars arguably do some good things, but they also essentially indoctrinate people from when they are children. I think that's another reason I'm okay with forgiving Kaija; I know how hard it can be to break free of that indoctrination. And as you said, on the love path there's early signs that she's gaining some clarity there.

My ideal route I think with Kaija would be a neutral MC that eventually convinces Kaija to join him there, and the two of them get the Templars and Elves to collectively pull their heads out of their ass to address the third-party threat.
Eh, I'm less keen on the presentation so far. Neither group is monolithically good or evil, but that's because both are pretty monolithically neutral. The Templars talk a big game about protecting humanity, but they provide zero details and seem hopelessly incompetent. The Alfar, meanwhile, are litigious xenophobes with a chip on their shoulder who do everything Kari assured us they wouldn't.

Both groups seem to be entirely focused on protecting their own nebulous interests to the exclusion of all else. Any action they take, individually or as a group, is either tied up with those interests, or is a whim by one of the members that costs them nothing. The closest we've seen to a "moral" decisions from any of them is Kaija helping Medb's group fight off the hellspawn - and even that is potentially part of her job! If we had a better understanding of their goals (or the threats they face), we could potentially have an "ends vs means" debate about their actions, but we do not.

We have seen a variety of attitudes and temperaments from the members of each group, so in that sense I agree they aren't monolithic. But as far as their "alignment," they've been pretty one-note.


I generally take the perspective that alternate paths aren't canon unless you're on that path, since motives and whatnot can be so different. In my mind, the Kaija that saves you because she's ordered to is a different person than the one that abandons her mission to save you. They are "alternate universe" versions of each other.

So yeah, my perspective is from a Kaija love path. It's the path on which the decision of whether or not to forgive her matters the most.
Kaija is a reflection of the player's attitude towards her. By wanting to forgive her, Kaija is retroactively made worthy of that forgiveness. By wanting to reject her, Kaija is retroactively made deserving of that castigation.

It's a neat trick, but it does make debates about her motivations somewhat circular. :(


2. I concede to your word soup point in that she may have obeyed the letter of the law, but she certainly didn't obey the spirit of the law. Jumping in to that relationship was only going to end one way for the MC emotionally.
Very true, but like most emotionally-charged matters, logic wasn't involved.

We know Kaija was a genuine childhood friend to the MC so it's not hard to see how she could resolve to keep things platonic while protecting him, only to get caught up in a growing mutual romantic attraction as the two spent more and more time together. It wasn't a single conscious decision, it was a string of intuitive decisions that eventually led to a crisis - one that didn't have an acceptable solution. She can't explain her reservations without spilling the beans (which still might not solve the problem since the MC's family ARE the Templars), and given the Council's attitude previously it's not like they'd change her duties she asked them for a reprieve. Even trying to bury her feelings would be difficult since the MC would want to know why she was suddenly so guarded around him.

Frankly, it's no wonder Kaija was sending mixed signals to the MC at the start of the game. (On the love path, anyway. On the hate path it's still not surprising, but it's more a case of Kaija being unable keep her personal disinterest from bleeding into her role as loving girlfriend.)
 
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Rehwyn

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On all the paths she did this because it was, quote, easier.
Minor quibble here, to actually quote the bit related to "easier":
MC: "Did you get into a relationship with me on purpose? Because it made your job easier?"
Kaija: "No! If that had been my intention, I could have saved myself the trouble with the Council. It's literally what they asked me to do."
Kaija: "The situation had developed its own dynamics. Before I really realized it, we both were a thing. It was easy. The best from both worlds."
So to me it seems it's not so much that she started a relationship to make things easier, just that once one did develop organically, it was easy to continue on with both it and her job, at least for a while.

I think others have already covered the other main things I'd mention. Namely, that starting a relationship wasn't against her orders, just beyond their revised scope and that her pre-existing childhood friendship likely primed her for a potential emotional compromise from the start. I pretty much guarantee that at least some members of Templar command hoped a relationship would start even if it was no longer part of her orders.
I have been talking about Kaija with a good friend I recently converted to Neverwhere. He was an ex-operative and disgreed that Kaija should have come clean earlier. Having been ex-military myself and worked for the government where secrets were concerned. I do concede and see the point re-Kaija and her work secrets. I agree with Mav who pointed out Steph in LOF was tied up with her job, and its a very tough situation. Hence why Steph was redeemed later in the story.
Not being ex-operative or ex-military myself, it's nice to hear that my understanding of this aspect were at least reasonably on the mark. I only deal with financial secrets so it's different I'm sure, but there is definitely business and financial secrets I have an ethical obligation to keep, even from people like my wife. So I can empathize with others in similar situations but with even higher stakes.
 
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Wolfram99

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Kaija is a reflection of the player's attitude towards her. By wanting to forgive her, Kaija is retroactively made worthy of that forgiveness. By wanting to reject her, Kaija is retroactively made deserving of that castigation.

It's a neat trick, but it does make debates about her motivations somewhat circular. :(
Revisionist history at its finest
 
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Rehwyn

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Revisionist history at its finest
A smaller form of this trick is used in essentially every AVN I've played, but usually only when it comes to the present and moving forward.

If the player is romantically interested in a LI and makes choices reflective of that, the LI usually is also interested in MC. The opposite is often also true. It's less often that LIs have unrequited crushes if the player hasn't indicated interest.

The difference here is that the choices change aspects of Kaija's history with MC going back to before the start of the game. If you make choices that indicate MC actually cares for Kaija, her history is set to be more deserving of that affection compared to if your choices indicate that MC does not love her.

I suspect the decision to do this is because the player starts with her as a girlfriend, as compared to the other LIs which are all "forward looking". Since you didn't have a choice whether or not to start anything with Kaija originally, the devs instead give you some agency to determine to nature of the relationship so far.

They probably could have written her to be more forgivable on all the paths and not just ones where the MC loves her. But then some players might feel like assholes for breaking up with her to pursue the other LIs instead of her. :KEK:
 
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TrixRabbit

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I have three save paths for the game, all monogamous. My "main" path went for Kaija since I generally try to accept it when an AVN sticks us with a starting SO. There's obviously a lot of work that needs to be done, but I'm willing to give Kaija a second chance since she was caught in something of a no-win scenario (on the love path, anyway). The other paths are for Fiona (my favorite thus far) and Elea (likeable, but just not clicking for me).
I'm almost always monogamous. I get shit from people for trying to be monogamous in harem games but I haven't figured out who I want to be monogamous WITH in this game. It's not Kajia, I thought it might be Finn ... but no .. so now I'm just not sure. Will probably start from scratch again once I figure that one out.
 

TrixRabbit

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I think others have already covered the other main things I'd mention. Namely, that starting a relationship wasn't against her orders, just beyond their revised scope and that her pre-existing childhood friendship likely primed her for a potential emotional compromise from the start. I pretty much guarantee that at least some members of Templar command hoped a relationship would start even if it was no longer part of her orders.
There are basically two questions here and based on the answers, one of three things is true:

1) Did Kajia feel anything for MC?
2) Did she report it to her handler(s)?

If she felt something she was compromised, if she didn't report it then she isn't very professional or very well trained.

If she felt something and did report it and they left her in the field, then the organization is not very professional. Even if they like MC and would be inclined to be happy for them - you don't leave someone with emotional entanglements in the field, it clouds their judgement. (You also don't pull a protection detail off of an asset and send them on other missions).

If she didn't feel anything, whether she reported that or not, then she is a professional working for a professional organization (except for the part about pulling someone's protection detail and sending them on a coffee run.)
 
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