VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[Pixillin']

I never held hers or her mothers attitude against them. Holding a separate species accountable to human standards is as unfair as them holding a human to theirs.
When it comes to Kaija/Parents these are people the MC grew up with, learning from, trusting before they broke it whereas the alfar and the MC are feeling each other out for the first time. Respect is a two way street so I wasn't at all surprised by their response especially for a race that has been able to watch mankind make mistake after mistake for centuries. I don't think they're crazy I think they are aggressively cautious.
In the end it doesn't matter if you're human, alfar, demon, angel, fae, nymph and everything else in between while we may be capabale of change like Finn our flaw is we will always think that our opinions are always right no matter how askew they may or may not be.

Yeah I think having Finn attack you was necessary to the development of that part of the story. According to the Alfar humans (and especially Templars) are vile, bloodthirsty, and ruthless - fully prepared to kill the defenseless to achieve their aims. Their most likely reaction to MC would have been to kill him or at least take him back to where he came in and tell him not to return, but when he spared Finn - he shattered their stereotypes and earned a life debt which forced them to at least give him a chance. Finn starts out pretty icy but if you ignore the "life debt" thing and treat her as a person, even as a superior in some ways (because she definitely knows more about the Alfar than you do for a start) she softens pretty quickly. It's obviously not enough to change their minds about humans or the Templars (I wouldn't try to change their minds about that anyway) but it is enough that they consider you a friend. By the end Finn is falling for you, Medb is talking to you about things she's never talked to anybody about (like her brother) and even the King is somewhat impressed by you. But if Finn hadn't fought you, and you hadn't spared her, none of that is possible. You don't get the foot in the door that leads to all the good things.

 

[Pixillin']

Having said all of that, I wish that it had been Finns father who died. That would have been tragic, Finn and Medb would have both been sad and angry and MC probably would have to react but it would be the same reaction as now - since Finn was my favorite Li by quite a lot. If it's Finn's father I can empathise with her and go look for answers (and probably still take revenge) but it being Finn burns all bridges with the Templars for me - unless someone can prove to me that they weren't involved - I'm ready to take heads until I find out who did it and then probably take some more heads just to make a point. Finn's death blocks any path to peace between the Alfar + me and the Templars.

 

[xapican]

So...just, all the casualities on the Templar side are justified ?
all the Templars who were killed in useless skirmishes with the Alfar
and I'm talking about the centurys on going, tense relationship between Alfars and Humans, since the expedition of Ponce de Leon, which was the drop which brought the glass to overflow.
In this sidelong debatte I didn't even read a single line about why Kaija is so commited to the cause, as the few who are neutral to Kaija suspect, that she is probaly seeking the responsibles for the dead of her parents and Grandfather.

 

[Elduriel]

Having said all of that, I wish that it had been Finns father who died. That would have been tragic, Finn and Medb would have both been sad and angry and MC probably would have to react but it would be the same reaction as now - since Finn was my favorite Li by quite a lot. If it's Finn's father I can empathise with her and go look for answers (and probably still take revenge) but it being Finn burns all bridges with the Templars for me - unless someone can prove to me that they weren't involved - I'm ready to take heads until I find out who did it and then probably take some more heads just to make a point. Finn's death blocks any path to peace between the Alfar + me and the Templars.

you're jumping to conclusions very quickly. There's a very high chance that the murder of Finn was orchestrated by the third party we know little of to sow further conflict between the templars and elves. The templars have very little motivation to go straight for murder just out of the blue especially when they know the son of the grandmaster is with the elves at the time. It would be an incredibly stupid move given the situation.

 

[Pixillin']

So...just, all the casualities on the Templar side are justified ?
all the Templars who were killed in useless skirmishes with the Alfar
and I'm talking about the centurys on going, tense relationship between Alfars and Humans, since the expedition of Ponce de Leon, which was the drop which brought the glass to overflow.
In this sidelong debatte I didn't even read a single line about why Kaija is so commited to the cause, as the few who are neutral to Kaija suspect, that she is probaly seeking the responsibles for the dead of her parents and Grandfather.

You don't understand - it is a mostly emotional reaction - the same you'd get from some people if the Aflars killed Kajia. If there was a single templar involved in Finn's murder, in any way. I'll bring down the entire organization just as a tribute to Finn. Ideally I'd also rebuilt it, with the help of Medb, Kari and Fionna maybe - so there is some type of shield and keep some Alfar stationed there to help ensure peace - because they'd know exactly what the Templars were up to. I'd also make it public to improve recruitment and public cooperation. But not one of the current members would be included.

Edit: That's why I started the last post the way I did. If it was Finn's father I'd still be upset but it wouldn't be as personal. It's obviously not my story to tell but that's how I feel about the story at this point (there is also a good chance that I have no Li in this story. The only one still in the running is Fionna and -- she'd be a distant second to Finn.

 

[Maviarab]

You don't understand - it is a mostly emotional reaction - the same you'd get from some people if the Aflars killed Kajia. If there was a single templar involved in Finn's murder, in any way. I'll bring down the entire organization just as a tribute to Finn. Ideally I'd also rebuilt it, with the help of Medb, Kari and Fionna maybe - so there is some type of shield and keep some Alfar stationed there to help ensure peace - because they'd know exactly what the Templars were up to. I'd also make it public to improve recruitment and public cooperation. But not one of the current members would be included.

Edit: That's why I started the last post the way I did. If it was Finn's father I'd still be upset but it wouldn't be as personal. It's obviously not my story to tell but that's how I feel about the story at this point (there is also a good chance that I have no Li in this story. The only one still in the running is Fionna and -- she'd be a distant second to Finn.

But Finn wasn't a LI...she was a side chick. You can keep calling her a LI...but she never was.

Just like my sweet Anissa will never be either.

 

[Pixillin']

Thanks! Fingers crossed. I actually hope that I'll get a chance to simply join Medb and fight with them but if I have to go out on my own, I'll do what damage I can.

Edit: Who knows, maybe this is what's supposed to happen - maybe it's the intent. Maybe this is an Arthurian tale with MC as Arthur and the Templars as the Saxons. Maybe now I go in search of knights.

 

[TrixRabbit]

 

[Jack Nippleson]

After all sides get decimated in an all out brawl.

 

[Pixillin']

Except of course not the French



Or, sadly, the developer

 

[ename144]

You don't understand - it is a mostly emotional reaction - the same you'd get from some people if the Aflars killed Kajia. If there was a single templar involved in Finn's murder, in any way. I'll bring down the entire organization just as a tribute to Finn. Ideally I'd also rebuilt it, with the help of Medb, Kari and Fionna maybe - so there is some type of shield and keep some Alfar stationed there to help ensure peace - because they'd know exactly what the Templars were up to. I'd also make it public to improve recruitment and public cooperation. But not one of the current members would be included.

Edit: That's why I started the last post the way I did. If it was Finn's father I'd still be upset but it wouldn't be as personal. It's obviously not my story to tell but that's how I feel about the story at this point (there is also a good chance that I have no Li in this story. The only one still in the running is Fionna and -- she'd be a distant second to Finn.

How does it being an emotional reaction make their actions any less unacceptable? Regardless of what crimes the Templars might have visited upon the Alfar in the past (and we currently have no specific evidence of crimes by either group against the other), the fact that they're happy to paint the entirety of humanity with the same brush is a serious problem - one the MC never gets a chance to help the Alfar address. Finnabair had started to come around, but she died, and the fact he needed to flee the city makes it clear the lesson hadn't taken with the Alfar at large.

There's also the issue of whether the Templars killing Finnabair (assuming they actually did so) might be justified. We've already established that the Alfar's hatred is beyond the bounds of reason, and we know they were willing to kidnap the Templar's Grandmaster unprovoked just to extract concessions from the group. It's hardly a stretch to think the Alfar might have ordered Finnabair to lead another unprovoked operation against the Templars which went pear shaped, in which case the people ultimately responsible for her death would be her superior officers, not the Templars. Are you going to burn down Alfheimr if that turns out to be the case?

As for Ailill dying instead of Finnabair, it wouldn't have had anywhere near as much emotional impact; he'd all but disappeared from the story by that point. It would also create a serious branching issue since he'd now be alive in saves that chose to kill Finnabair, effectively making any future interactions with either character much more complicated to write since they'd need to account for that possibility. So I don't think this could be a practical suggestion - as much as I would have preferred it if our primary contact with Alfar society survived her introductory chapter.

 

[satirious]

Regardless of what crimes the Templars might have visited upon the Alfar in the past (and we currently have no specific evidence of crimes by either group against the other)

Other than kidnapping with the intent to murder the Grandmaster

and we know they were willing to kidnap the Templar's Grandmaster unprovoked just to extract concessions from the group.

Only it wasn't to extract concessions. Medb planned the scenario knowing full well that the terms for his release were beyond anything that could be accepted or negotiated away from. So fabricate a situation that allows them to murder someone and transfer blame. She admits that much on her own.

"We had to kill him because you didn't meet our demands" is right up there with "you agreed to a death duel because you weren't willing to die like the pathetic little human we need you to be."

No life debt from Medb and the father dies. She tried to sucker the MC into erasing that little bump in their plan at the release meeting.

 

[ename144]

Other than kidnapping with the intent to murder the Grandmaster



Only it wasn't to extract concessions. Medb planned the scenario knowing full well that the terms for his release were beyond anything that could be accepted or negotiated away from. So fabricate a situation that allows them to murder someone and transfer blame. She admits that much on her own.

"We had to kill him because you didn't meet our demands" is right up there with "you agreed to a death duel because you weren't willing to die like the pathetic little human we need you to be."

No life debt from Medb and the father dies. She tried to sucker the MC into erasing that little bump in their plan at the release meeting.

I'm reluctant to call kidnapping the MC's father a "crime" because it's unclear just how bad relations were between the two groups at the start of the game. It's certainly an act of war, but the morality of war is complicated, and if relations had already broken down acts of war are the nature of the beast. They obviously cause massive problems, but they don't tend to spawn virulent hatred the way a "crime" (like massacring prisoners or assassinating members during peacetime) would.

Plus, if relations were bad enough to be on the brink of war, it's entirely possible the Templars had already made their own acts of war and the Alfar were merely upping the ante. We just don't know. I have no love for the Alfar, but that doesn't automatically mean the Templars are better.

As far as their plans for the Grandmaster, I don't think the Alfar were planning to kill him. They knew their initial ultimatum was almost certain to be rejected, but my impression is they figured they could eventually negotiate with the Templars for some lesser concessions in exchange for his release. If that didn't pan out then they would exploit the vulnerabilities that losing the Grandmaster would create when they went to war, but even then they probably wouldn't kill their prisoner since he could be a useful bargaining chip if and when they wanted a cease fire.

None of which means they wouldn't have killed the MC's father if they thought it would help them or he was likely to escape. They absolutely would have. I just don't think that was their primary goal.

 

[satirious]

I'm reluctant to call kidnapping the MC's father a "crime" because it's unclear just how bad relations were between the two groups at the start of the game. It's certainly an act of war, but the morality of war is complicated, and if relations had already broken down acts of war are the nature of the beast. They obviously cause massive problems, but they don't tend to spawn virulent hatred the way a "crime" (like massacring prisoners or assassinating members during peacetime) would.

Plus, if relations were bad enough to be on the brink of war, it's entirely possible the Templars had already made their own acts of war and the Alfar were merely upping the ante. We just don't know. I have no love for the Alfar, but that doesn't automatically mean the Templars are better.

As far as their plans for the Grandmaster, I don't think the Alfar were planning to kill him. They knew their initial ultimatum was almost certain to be rejected, but my impression is they figured they could eventually negotiate with the Templars for some lesser concessions in exchange for his release. If that didn't pan out then they would exploit the vulnerabilities that losing the Grandmaster would create when they went to war, but even then they probably wouldn't kill their prisoner since he could be a useful bargaining chip if and when they wanted a cease fire.

None of which means they wouldn't have killed the MC's father if they thought it would help them or he was likely to escape. They absolutely would have. I just don't think that was their primary goal.

As much as I want to say that nobody is stupid enough to think the outcome could be any less than total war and annihilation. History is filled with supposedly wise rulers thinking they could kick a bear and negotiate out of it. Sadly, history also shows us that it can happen.

I will disagree on the kidnapping being a crime or act of war. Until you declare war, it's a crime against an individual. I'll avoid bringing up real world examples to avoid that "political" hornets nest. Had they declared war on the back of the offense, then maybe you could lawyer that one as the opening salvo. That isn't what they did though. By their own admission, they made demands that would only give a flaky excuse to commit murder.

 

[adanu]

I'm reluctant to call kidnapping the MC's father a "crime" because it's unclear just how bad relations were between the two groups at the start of the game. It's certainly an act of war, but the morality of war is complicated, and if relations had already broken down acts of war are the nature of the beast. They obviously cause massive problems, but they don't tend to spawn virulent hatred the way a "crime" (like massacring prisoners or assassinating members during peacetime) would.

Plus, if relations were bad enough to be on the brink of war, it's entirely possible the Templars had already made their own acts of war and the Alfar were merely upping the ante. We just don't know. I have no love for the Alfar, but that doesn't automatically mean the Templars are better.

As far as their plans for the Grandmaster, I don't think the Alfar were planning to kill him. They knew their initial ultimatum was almost certain to be rejected, but my impression is they figured they could eventually negotiate with the Templars for some lesser concessions in exchange for his release. If that didn't pan out then they would exploit the vulnerabilities that losing the Grandmaster would create when they went to war, but even then they probably wouldn't kill their prisoner since he could be a useful bargaining chip if and when they wanted a cease fire.

None of which means they wouldn't have killed the MC's father if they thought it would help them or he was likely to escape. They absolutely would have. I just don't think that was their primary goal.

You really do not have enough context to know how much information we have so far is speculation or just lies, and nothing so far has given me the impression that the Templars and the Alfar were in a hot war, just a cold, if neutral, one.

Both factions have their reasons to lie to you... and if they meant harm, they could have just as easily have killed the Grandmaster instead of kidnapped him.

I am very interested to know what the Alfar game is with the MC, because everything I've seen so far points to a carefully curated view of their world.

 

[Pixillin']

You really do not have enough context to know how much information we have so far is speculation or just lies, and nothing so far has given me the impression that the Templars and the Alfar were in a hot war, just a cold, if neutral, one.

Both factions have their reasons to lie to you... and if they meant harm, they could have just as easily have killed the Grandmaster instead of kidnapped him.

I am very interested to know what the Alfar game is with the MC, because everything I've seen so far points to a carefully curated view of their world.

Not too carefully curated because yes, most of the time you're with Fin during the day and Medb in the evenings but when you're not you're encouraged to "wander around the city and talk to people, just don't be too surprised if they don't want to talk to you ... or something like that." So unless the whole city (2+ million people) is in on it they're not trying to hide anything. The only time Finn doesn't want to let you go where you want to is when you go to meet the Lady of the Lake - but only because Finn is kindof afraid of her. You do it anyway and Finn is fine during and after.

 

[adanu]

Not too carefully curated because yes, most of the time you're with Fin during the day and Medb in the evenings but when you're not you're encouraged to "wander around the city and talk to people, just don't be too surprised if they don't want to talk to you ... or something like that." So unless the whole city (2+ million people) is in on it they're not trying to hide anything. The only time Finn doesn't want to let you go where you want to is when you go to meet the Lady of the Lake - but only because Finn is kindof afraid of her. You do it anyway and Finn is fine during and after.

It's a fairly advanced city by all accounts and they're a tightly knit community from the looks of it, why would they NOT all be in on it? They had plenty of time to spread the word to the general populace, and it's very much an intentional choice that they don't speak in his language around him.

I don't buy that they didn't curate his visit. I WILL buy that Finn might have actually changed her mind, but not on that.

 

[Pixillin']

It's a fairly advanced city by all accounts and they're a tightly knit community from the looks of it, why would they NOT all be in on it? They had plenty of time to spread the word to the general populace, and it's very much an intentional choice that they don't speak in his language around him.

I don't buy that they didn't curate his visit. I WILL buy that Finn might have actually changed her mind, but not on that.

No. I mean that's just flat out wrong - not a matter of opinion, just wrong. The idea of getting 2 - 2.5 million people to all play along with something for 7-10 weeks and have nobody fuck it up is just absurd, it can't be done. Especially since they're not telepathic, and they don't have internet or even telephones.

Edit:

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[Pixillin']

I'm playing through again, trying a few different things and maybe setting up some saves with side girls (like Kate maybe) as main Li's - since I'm really down to just Fionna.

Anyway, I was reading and thinking about MC and Kajia's relationship in the early game and I think I would have been close to ending things anyway. It doesn't really feel like they're much of a couple anyway, more like FWB + a place for her to store her clothes. I said once that the first thing I would have done when I found out was give her an ultimatum - the templars or me. But I think I'd be pretty close to that anyway - not in a hostile way but in a ... I know you love your job but this isn't working for me ... way.

 

[adanu]

No. I mean that's just flat out wrong - not a matter of opinion, just wrong. The idea of getting 2 - 2.5 million people to all play along with something for 7-10 weeks and have nobody fuck it up is just absurd, it can't be done. Especially since they're not telepathic, and they don't have internet or even telephones.

Edit:

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We're not talking about humans, we're talking about Alfar.