VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[ename144]

If you spare Finn - and aren't an asshole while you're visiting you see an entirely different side of Medb than the one she presents to the Templars. Yes she's very proud, she's 2000 years old and the 4th highest ranked of her people. She obviously feels a little superior to the 20 something human but you spend a lot of evenings talking to her and she is very open about everything.

Yeah, and if you do kill Finn, Medb wants to kill the MC for the heinous crime of not dying; it was the rest of the Alfar who insist on keeping him alive for ransom. And before you say the MC shouldn't be killing Alfar when he claims to come in peace, I remind you that at no point prior to the fateful decision did Medb mention that disarming an opponent was sufficient to win the duel - even when Finnabair was ranting about killing the MC if he didn't finish her off.

The fact Medb only warms to the MC if he'd literally rather die than defend himself from her daughter is, IMHO, a serious mark against her. She has a disturbing lack of empathy.

Also, is there any solid confirmation that Medb is actually #4 in the Alfar pecking order? We know she's powerful, and we know she isn't one of the three Monarchs, but it's not clear how many other powerful and/or influential Alfar might be out there.

Based on what I know, which is all I can base opinions on, I think the Templars are a net negative for humanity as an organization. They are certainly a negative for MC. And Kajia has zero credibility with me. If she came in soaking wet and told me it was raining, I'd have to look to confirm.

Okay, so what would you do to confirm the story? All I ever hear from you is "Templars delenda est!!" I've never once heard you contemplate the notion there might be even the slightest downside to eliminating them.

So let's start small. What sort of evidence would you look for to know whether it's safe to spill the beans if and when the Templars are eliminated?

 

[Pixillin']

Yeah, and if you do kill Finn, Medb wants to kill the MC for the heinous crime of not dying; it was the rest of the Alfar who insist on keeping him alive for ransom. And before you say the MC shouldn't be killing Alfar when he claims to come in peace, I remind you that at no point prior to the fateful decision did Medb mention that disarming an opponent was sufficient to win the duel - even when Finnabair was ranting about killing the MC if he didn't finish her off.

The fact Medb only warms to the MC if he'd literally rather die than defend himself from her daughter is, IMHO, a serious mark against her. She has a disturbing lack of empathy.

Also, is there any solid confirmation that Medb is actually #4 in the Alfar pecking order? We know she's powerful, and we know she isn't one of the three Monarchs, but it's not clear how many other powerful and/or influential Alfar might be out there.

If that's the approach you take, then Medb would have been absolutely right to kill you. I certainly would in her shoes.

Okay, so what would you do to confirm the story? All I ever hear from you is "Templars delenda est!!" I've never once heard you contemplate the notion there might be even the slightest downside to eliminating them.

So let's start small. What sort of evidence would you look for to know whether it's safe to spill the beans if and when the Templars are eliminated?

I wouldn't look for clues, I'd just spill - no one has given me a solid reason not to and even if there is some power out there forcing the Templars to remain quiet, I'll find out about them after I spill (with evidence). If that power then comes after MC and kills him, so be it. I'd take that as a good ending - the fall of the Templars and the truth getting out that is. It'd be worth it.

 

[MiltonPowers]

You guys go chase Kaija, Medb, Fiona, and Kate.

I'm happy having Elea alllllll to myself.
View attachment 4410145

I'm with you my friend. I do like Medb, but Elea is still #1 for me at the moment.

 

[ename144]

If that's the approach you take, then Medb would have been absolutely right to kill you. I certainly would in her shoes.

If that's your attitude, I don't see why you object to the Templars.

I wouldn't look for clues, I'd just spill - no one has given me a solid reason not to and even if there is some power out there forcing the Templars to remain quiet, I'll find out about them after I spill (with evidence). If that power then comes after MC and kills him, so be it. I'd take that as a good ending - the fall of the Templars and the truth getting out that is. It'd be worth it.

The relevant issue is that you might stand a better chance successfully spilling the beans if you know what forces are available to contain a leak. It's easy to say you'll provide evidence when you reveal the secret, but if the guy you give that evidence to promptly shoots you in the head then burns the evidence before informing his Illuminati masters (or whatever the case may be), that's not much of a victory.

So seriously, setting aside your virulent hatred for the Templars for a second, what sort of evidence would you look for to figure out who enforces Neverwhere's secrecy?

 

[Pixillin']

If that's your attitude, I don't see why you object to the Templars.


The relevant issue is that you might stand a better chance successfully spilling the beans if you know what forces are available to contain a leak. It's easy to say you'll provide evidence when you reveal the secret, but if the guy you give that evidence to promptly shoots you in the head then burns the evidence before informing his Illuminati masters (or whatever the case may be), that's not much of a victory.

So seriously, setting aside your virulent hatred for the Templars for a second, what sort of evidence would you look for to figure out who enforces Neverwhere's secrecy?

Your thing with Medb is silly. You're acting like what she does, or wants to do is some kind of violation of your rights but you don't have any rights. You are an uninvited enemy who was caught in their territory. That you even got to see Medb at all is something of a victory but you really shouldn't go in to such a mission expecting anything but your own death.

And again, I wouldn't look for evidence of who enforces Neverwhere's secrecy. In the internet age, there are ways to get information out and make sure it remains alive. I do not expect the Templars to tell me anything, and even if they do I have absolutely no reason to believe it. I would just set about exposing it all, and wouldn't look for the Illuminati (or whoever). The only person I really trust on the human side at this point is a bartender.

 

[ename144]

Your thing with Medb is silly. You're acting like what she does, or wants to do is some kind of violation of your rights but you don't have any rights. You are an uninvited enemy who was caught in their territory. That you even got to see Medb at all is something of a victory but you really shouldn't go in to such a mission expecting anything but your own death.

Bullshit. The MC came in peace and was INVITED to make his case, only to learn the safe passage was effectively meaningless and rules lawyers could kill him at any time. If he then lives up to the exact wording of the conditions they forced on him, he's once again blamed for being too literal. The only winning move is to throw himself at the mercy of the court and hope the judge likes his wording. But the fact that can be effective doesn't make it right.

You seem to think the Alfar are entitled to behave however they want purely because they're "better" than humans, and I reject that notion utterly. I judge them by the same rules I judge anyone else. They had every right to refuse the MC an audience at the border, but they didn't. They also had every opportunity to end the MC's visit before it got lethal, and they didn't. They were happy to murder an envoy of peace as long the proper forms were filled out.

So yeah, I judge the Alfar both callous and untrustworthy. The fact they get pissy when the MC treats them half as them as callously as they've treated him simply makes them insufferable hypocrites to boot.

I'll agree with you about one thing, though: the MC shouldn't have gone on that mission expecting to survive. I'll be pleasantly surprised if he can express that realization now that it's been proven correct, but we'll see what happens if he ever meets Kari again.

And again, I wouldn't look for evidence of who enforces Neverwhere's secrecy. In the internet age, there are ways to get information out and make sure it remains alive. I do not expect the Templars to tell me anything, and even if they do I have absolutely no reason to believe it. I would just set about exposing it all, and wouldn't look for the Illuminati (or whoever). The only person I really trust on the human side at this point is a bartender.

If you think a secret *this* big has been kept for hundreds of years purely because no one thought to tattle, good luck with that.

 

[Pixillin']

Bullshit. The MC came in peace and was INVITED to make his case, only to learn the safe passage was effectively meaningless and rules lawyers could kill him at any time. If he then lives up to the exact wording of the conditions they forced on him, he's once again blamed for being too literal. The only winning move is to throw himself at the mercy of the court and hope the judge likes his wording. But the fact that can be effective doesn't make it right.

You seem to think the Alfar are entitled to behave however they want purely because they're "better" than humans, and I reject that notion utterly. I judge them by the same rules I judge anyone else. They had every right to refuse the MC an audience at the border, but they didn't. They also had every opportunity to end the MC's visit before it got lethal, and they didn't. They were happy to murder an envoy of peace as long the proper forms were filled out.

So yeah, I judge the Alfar both callous and untrustworthy. The fact they get pissy when the MC treats them half as them as callously as they've treated him simply makes them insufferable hypocrites to boot.

I'll agree with you about one thing, though: the MC shouldn't have gone on that mission expecting to survive. I'll be pleasantly surprised if he can express that realization now that it's been proven correct, but we'll see what happens if he ever meets Kari again.

That's not what happened at all. Nightingale tries to tell you it's a bad idea - but MC goes anyway. He may be on a mission of peace but Medb didn't invite him nor is he an official representative of anyone - he's not an emissary. Finn's father, because he showed mercy before, promises him safe passage TO Mebd but says that he can't make any guarantees beyond that and he tells you it's a bad idea and you should go home.

 

[ename144]

That's not what happened at all. Nightingale tries to tell you it's a bad idea - but MC goes anyway. He may be on a mission of peace but Medb didn't invite him nor is he an official representative of anyone - he's not an emissary. Finn's father, because he showed mercy before, promises him safe passage TO Mebd but says that he can't make any guarantees beyond that and he tells you it's a bad idea and you should go home.

Not quite. Ailill says he will grant the MC safe passage to speak in Alfheimr, but does NOT say that speaking to the Alfar is a bad idea or something more dangerous than the MC's journey to this point. He notably does not specify that the MC will be in greater danger the instant he's done speaking, either. In fact, when the MC asks if Finnabair will stab him in the back, Ailill only says "She will respect the oath her father gave to you." Which turns out to be untrue: she at best grudgingly obeys a questionable interpretation of the letter of the law and flagrantly disregards the spirit. And he takes no action to hinder Finnabair when she challenges the MC to a duel against his wishes.

It's true that Nightingale says going to see the elves will get him killed, but then again the MC has no reason to consider her more of an expert on the Alfar than Kari (to say nothing of Ailill), so her advice is hardly definitive proof. But in the end, I don't think it matters. I agree the MC was acting foolishly here, but just because he's a fool that doesn't mean the people capitalizing on his naivety are in the right to do so.

The whole point of a flag of truce is to negotiate in safety; once the truce is accepted, it makes no difference (from an ethical sense) whether the person seeking was doing so on their own or at the behest of a larger organization. Granting a truce only to kill someone the instant the parley ends unsuccessfully defeats the point of the truce in the first place, which was to return the parties to the state they were in when they ASKED for the truce, not whatever state they're caught in part way through. Much like the way Medb refused to acknowledge the MC's refusal to duel yet took defending himself as an irrevocable acceptance, it's an underhanded practice that makes a mockery of the rules it purports to impose.

The Alfar get huffy whenever anyone calls them on their duplicity, but in my view the shoe fits.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

but how can I when that means either Kaija or Medb will kill me when they find out. Fiona will probably just cry so at least she won't kill me.

No idea. Elea needed some love, in the last few pages all the LIs and a few of the other girls like Kate have got some lovin' but poor Elea was being left out in the cold, so I just had to claim her for myself.

 

[Elhemeer]

Okay, I'm risking spoilers by asking this while being an update behind, but when the group arrives for the return of dad, the MC specifically thinks about the lack of obvious light sources and the dim orange tint to the lighting in the area still ... yet bright-white chest-tall light sources are everywhere. Am I missing a patch, or is this just something that gets a handwave?

Spoiler: Giant white glowsticks ...

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[Pixillin']

Not quite. Ailill says he will grant the MC safe passage to speak in Alfheimr, but does NOT say that speaking to the Alfar is a bad idea or something more dangerous than the MC's journey to this point. He notably does not specify that the MC will be in greater danger the instant he's done speaking, either. In fact, when the MC asks if Finnabair will stab him in the back, Ailill only says "She will respect the oath her father gave to you." Which turns out to be untrue: she at best grudgingly obeys a questionable interpretation of the letter of the law and flagrantly disregards the spirit. And he takes no action to hinder Finnabair when she challenges the MC to a duel against his wishes.

It's true that Nightingale says going to see the elves will get him killed, but then again the MC has no reason to consider her more of an expert on the Alfar than Kari (to say nothing of Ailill), so her advice is hardly definitive proof. But in the end, I don't think it matters. I agree the MC was acting foolishly here, but just because he's a fool that doesn't mean the people capitalizing on his naivety are in the right to do so.

The whole point of a flag of truce is to negotiate in safety; once the truce is accepted, it makes no difference (from an ethical sense) whether the person seeking was doing so on their own or at the behest of a larger organization. Granting a truce only to kill someone the instant the parley ends unsuccessfully defeats the point of the truce in the first place, which was to return the parties to the state they were in when they ASKED for the truce, not whatever state they're caught in part way through. Much like the way Medb refused to acknowledge the MC's refusal to duel yet took defending himself as an irrevocable acceptance, it's an underhanded practice that makes a mockery of the rules it purports to impose.

The Alfar get huffy whenever anyone calls them on their duplicity, but in my view the shoe fits.

Well, we see things in completely opposite ways. I consider Medb and the Alfar honorable and honest, if a bit prejudiced and consider the Templars incompetent, duplicitous, cowardly, elitist, self-important, prejudiced, and bordering on evil - pretty much all of them.

 

[ename144]

Okay, I'm risking spoilers by asking this while being an update behind, but when the group arrives for the return of dad, the MC specifically thinks about the lack of obvious light sources and the dim orange tint to the lighting in the area still ... yet bright-white chest-tall light sources are everywhere. Am I missing a patch, or is this just something that gets a handwave?

Spoiler: Giant white glowsticks ...

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I don't know what you're talking about, Elhemeer. There are only 5 lights.

Honestly, the simplest explanation is that the setting Ceolag was using has the lightsticks as part of the model, he planned to remove them but couldn't, and forgot to rework the dialog. But who wants a Doylist explanation when we can cobble together a convoluted Watsonian one. So:

• The MC was initially talking about the Ghost Lights which are the eerie source-less pools of light that move randomly (in those scenes there aren't any visible glowsticks)
• The lightsticks in the later scenes are a separate source of lights added by the Templar recon team specifically for better lighting at the meeting; they are so comparatively mundane the MC didn't even feel the need to mention them!
• The orange illumination on the ruins is a third source of light, which like the Ghost Light has no visible origin but seems to be stronger and unmoving
• The MC's final comment about the light have no source was directed specifically at the ruins-illuminating phenomenon, not the old hat Ghost Lights or boringly normal lightsticks.

For what it's worth, when the MC returns to the general area in Chapter 5 there are no lightsticks, and we do see a few of the Ghost Light effects on occasion. So my explanation is only convoluted in the sense that the MC never mentions the lightsticks as being a separate phenomenon.

 

[UnoriginalUserName]

I don't know what you're talking about, Elhemeer. There are only 5 lights.

 

[PaxHadrian17]

I'm with you my friend. I do like Medb, but Elea is still #1 for me at the moment.

For me, Fiona and Elea are about equal as LI's, with Medb slightly below them.

Even on the 'high trust' path with Kaija, I still know that there have been lies of omission - so I don't fully trust Kaija just as I no longer fully trust the MC's parents.

I think Kaija has the deepest pit to climb out of if she will regain a 'competitive' footing with the other 3 primary LIs.

I know Ceolag can give us that story arc, but I have no idea how many revs it will take to get there.

Cheers!!

 

[yossa999]

Yeah, and if you do kill Finn, Medb wants to kill the MC for the heinous crime of not dying; it was the rest of the Alfar who insist on keeping him alive for ransom. And before you say the MC shouldn't be killing Alfar when he claims to come in peace, I remind you that at no point prior to the fateful decision did Medb mention that disarming an opponent was sufficient to win the duel - even when Finnabair was ranting about killing the MC if he didn't finish her off.

The fact Medb only warms to the MC if he'd literally rather die than defend himself from her daughter is, IMHO, a serious mark against her. She has a disturbing lack of empathy.

Also, is there any solid confirmation that Medb is actually #4 in the Alfar pecking order? We know she's powerful, and we know she isn't one of the three Monarchs, but it's not clear how many other powerful and/or influential Alfar might be out there.

I can't believe, such a logical and consistent opinion in this thread. We don't do that here!

I'll add that I'm sure that if there was some impudent young male elf instead of Finnabair, who would have been constantly rude to the MC and yelled that the fight was to the death and that one of them would definitely die, I seriously doubt that the percentage of those who spared the asshole would have been the same as in the case of the arrogant busty blonde.

 

[Krytax123]

I can't believe, such a logical and consistent opinion in this thread. We don't do that here!

I'll add that I'm sure that if the was some impudent young male elf instead of Finnabair, who would have been constantly rude to the MC and yelled that the fight was to the death and that one of them would definitely die, I seriously doubt that the percentage of those who spared the asshole would have been the same as in the case of the arrogant busty blonde.

Since they are the good guys, finnabair is a sexy chick good guys are always hot like medb while the evil ones look like the strathanator

We prefer girls who try to kill us multiple times over girls who try to protect us but arent entirely honest about their job here!!!

 

[motseer]

Okay, I'm risking spoilers by asking this while being an update behind, but when the group arrives for the return of dad, the MC specifically thinks about the lack of obvious light sources and the dim orange tint to the lighting in the area still ... yet bright-white chest-tall light sources are everywhere. Am I missing a patch, or is this just something that gets a handwave?

Spoiler: The Source of Light According to mot

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[Tulrek]

You guys go chase Kaija, Medb, Fiona, and Kate.

I'm happy having Elea alllllll to myself.
View attachment 4410145

 

[nitkonikic]

No idea. Elea needed some love, in the last few pages all the LIs and a few of the other girls like Kate have got some lovin' but poor Elea was being left out in the cold, so I just had to claim her for myself.

Ah, nah, nah, nah, you can't have my sweetheart.

As for no love for her, thing about Elea is that she's just normal.
As in, vanilla option.

For me, that's her biggest advantage and big part of her charm (I also like her personality).
But for many, it will be her biggest negative.

She will be too simple, too bland, for most.
In a VN with superhero agent, superpowered elf and mysterious redhead, a simple, nerdy, working colleague blond really doesn't stand out.

Again, that's what makes her my favorite, because she's also a potential option for MC to one day lead normal life (though I seriously doubt Ceo will allow it, considering only one ending).

 

[Pixillin']

We prefer girls who try to kill us multiple times over girls who try to protect us but arent entirely honest about their job here!!!

Saying that Kajia isn't "entirely honest" is like saying the Taliban aren't "all feminists". At any rate, I was ready to dump Kajia before the thing with the mercenaries.