VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[xapican]

Krytax123 ; said by Ceolag himself, the story has all kind of grey shades, it is not black and white,
totally agreed on the "Alfar situation" pretty good Analysis.....

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

I don't know about a hidden faction. I see the Templars as bad - just as an organization, even under their ideal "this is what the Templars should be" sort of mission statement, I consider them a net negative for humanity. There may be a hidden faction that is even worse, but that doesn't make the rest of the organization good.

A lot of the Templars think they are doing good and and want to do good. They do think they protect humanity. The problem I see is they have lost their way and need major internal changes and a philosophical realignment to become the force they should be.

The biggest problem for the Templars is who will bring about that change and where will they find a competent council to lead it. Their stocks are pretty thin.

 

[Maviarab]

The biggest problem for the Templars is who will bring about that change and where will they find a competent council to lead it

 

[minibaer12]

A further point - which a lot of alfar lovers here fail to consider - is that the templars are probably the best safeguared for neverwhere and the alfar.

Medb says herself that they could never compete with all of humankind simply because of the numbers.

IF the templars fall and neverwhere becomes public knowledge, neverwhere would get swarmed by humans sooner or later. We would invade, colonize and breed like humans do.

At some point even the alfar territory could become affected.

Overall i feel like a lot of people here look at this conflict with way too much emotions involved (similar to the mc), at least if they want the mc to become someone making a difference and not staying a kid throwing tantrums.

I would argue even if you think the templars are the pure evil, its not smart to cut ties with them, it just restricts the mcs influence, knowledge and information as long as there is no hard choice to make.

Well, what you say is not without a certain logic. And yet the Templars play a subordinate role for me for now. My main focus is on the following three questions:

- The second sword. It seems to be Nordic, so off to the Vikings. I can certainly imagine that he will learn a few things there too.
- What is so special about the bar when a Valkyrie seems to be a regular there?
- And finally, what special skills does our MC have?

I don't see our MC on either side, it would be pointless and useless, he's still too much of a greenhorn for that!

 

[Pixillin']

A lot of the Templars think they are doing good and and want to do good. They do think they protect humanity. The problem I see is they have lost their way and need major internal changes and a philosophical realignment to become the force they should be.

The biggest problem for the Templars is who will bring about that change and where will they find a competent council to lead it. Their stocks are pretty thin.

If I were put in charge of "fixing" the organization, I wouldn't keep any of them - in any capacity (leadership or otherwise). And really, unless they say "welcome back, you're in charge of the Templars now" I consider all of them enemies - at least until I get whoever killed Finn.

 

[Knightcvel]

A further point - which a lot of alfar lovers here fail to consider - is that the templars are probably the best safeguared for neverwhere and the alfar.

Medb says herself that they could never compete with all of humankind simply because of the numbers.

IF the templars fall and neverwhere becomes public knowledge, neverwhere would get swarmed by humans sooner or later. We would invade, colonize and breed like humans do.

At some point even the alfar territory could become affected.

Overall i feel like a lot of people here look at this conflict with way too much emotions involved (similar to the mc), at least if they want the mc to become someone making a difference and not staying a kid throwing tantrums.

I would argue even if you think the templars are the pure evil, its not smart to cut ties with them, it just restricts the mcs influence, knowledge and information as long as there is no hard choice to make.

The point is that humankind already is aware of Neverwhere. It's not commom public knowledge, but rich corporations have bussiness there. There are at least one human settlement for every city that borders Neverwhere. There are lots of humans living there, and crime is rampant. There are trains crossing it, taking to other human settlements. The Alfar territory is already under risk and the templars are fighting to repel the Alfar even more, to crumble their resistence. Also, I think the templars are founded by those corporations that give them weapons, equipment, resources and everything to keep pushing the Alfar away. Notice that templars won't do anything to combat crime in human settlements and won't intervene to keep their denizens safe. It's because crime is part of the economy of human settlements in Neverwhere. One evidence of the submission of the Templars to the powers that rule Neverwhere can be seen when Roland tell MC about the death of his Grandparents. They tryed to prevent that a drug manufacture in Neverwhere being sold in our world and were killed. The Templars start a war against the drug lords and the powers that rule there called both sides and demanded it stopped. They imposed an agreement of don't allow the drug to be distributed in our world and the Templars won't proceed on their vendetta against the narco lords. They feel that like a bittersweet ending but accepted because they are not the ones who really rule anything.

 

[Knightcvel]

A lot of the Templars think they are doing good and and want to do good. They do think they protect humanity. The problem I see is they have lost their way and need major internal changes and a philosophical realignment to become the force they should be.

The biggest problem for the Templars is who will bring about that change and where will they find a competent council to lead it. Their stocks are pretty thin.

As a fan of Hunter, the Reckoning I see them as most factions on that set. Every one of them is corrupted and their operatives only work under a need to know basis. In the World of Darkness setting, only freelancer hunters may possibly be entirely good because the others are either brainwashed or corrupted.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

If I were put in charge of "fixing" the organization, I wouldn't keep any of them - in any capacity (leadership or otherwise). And really, unless they say "welcome back, you're in charge of the Templars now" I consider all of them enemies - at least until I get whoever killed Finn.

We were talking about the Templars. If we must go back to Finn again...

When you find the Templar that did it, let me know, I am giving them a medal for protecting the Templars from a surprise enemy attack. The Templar defenders are heroes as far as I am concerned. The Elves carried out a surprise attack against human interests and were the aggressors not the Templars. You should be mad at the elves who ordered the attack, that is who got her killed. The Templars were just defending themselves. In a couple of my playthroughs I killed her myself and gladly did so. Crazy cow kept trying to kill me. No sympathy for her.

Can we get back on topic now.

 

[Pixillin']

We were talking about the Templars. If we must go back to Finn again...

When you find the Templar that did it, let me know, I am giving them a medal for protecting the Templars from a surprise enemy attack. The Templar defenders are heroes as far as I am concerned. The Elves carried out a surprise attack against human interests and were the aggressors not the Templars. You should be mad at the elves who ordered the attack, that is who got her killed. The Templars were just defending themselves. In a couple of my playthroughs I killed her myself and gladly did so. Crazy cow kept trying to kill me. No sympathy for her.

Can we get back on topic now.

Sure but (obviously I disagree with you on all of those points) and it's all part of the package to me.

1) Treated MC like shit, "girlfriend" is a male prostitute, parents tried to get him killed
2) Their organization itself is a bad thing, that should disband - not least because of the current weak leadership.
and
3) Killed Finn

I won't knowingly have anything to do with any Templar or anyone who turns out to be connected to the Templars (unless they are willing to sever those ties - permanently and completely).

 

[Dessolos]

We were talking about the Templars. If we must go back to Finn again...

can always go back to the Kaija wars for the 100th time

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

As a fan of Hunter, the Reckoning I see them as most factions on that set. Every one of them is corrupted and their operatives only work under a need to know basis. In the World of Darkness setting, only freelancer hunters may possibly be entirely good because the others are either brainwashed or corrupted.

I don't see them as a lost cause of corruption. They definitely need a change in leadership.

I think the example of Linnae is a good illustration. Linnae has devoted herself to the Templars to the point of giving up her family and then risks her position by circumventing the leadership. She has lost respect for the leadership. She didn't care she was kicked out of the council. Why would she. They are inept fools, just trying to stick old bandaids on new wounds. She doesn't want to be associated with the council yet she is still devoted to the Templars as she hasn't lost faith in the organization, just the leadership. Hence why she wanted to explain the Templars to the MC. She wanted him to understand the Templars aren't the leadership.

 

[Pixillin']

I don't see them as a lost cause of corruption. They definitely need a change in leadership.

I think the example of Linnae is a good illustration. Linnae has devoted herself to the Templars to the point of giving up her family and then risks her position by circumventing the leadership. She has lost respect for the leadership. She didn't care she was kicked out of the council. Why would she. They are inept fools, just trying to stick old bandaids on new wounds. She doesn't want to be associated with the council yet she is still devoted to the Templars as she hasn't lost faith in the organization, just the leadership. Hence why she wanted to explain the Templars to the MC. She wanted him to understand the Templars aren't the leadership.

That's kinda my problem with them, they should be operating in secret, they shouldn't be lying to or abandoning their families. They should be right out in the open, and if there's some shadow organization that won't let them operate in the open, then shut them down let everything go to hell and it will all be out in the open anyway. Like I said, I wouldn't want to lead them and if that somehow happened anyway, I wouldn't want to keep a single one of them on the team - not even Linnae. She's been the best of them, but she should retire and move on.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Sure but (obviously I disagree with you on all of those points) and it's all part of the package to me.

1) Treated MC like shit, "girlfriend" is a male prostitute, parents tried to get him killed
2) Their organization itself is a bad thing, that should disband - not least because of the current weak leadership.
and
3) Killed Finn

I won't knowingly have anything to do with any Templar or anyone who turns out to be connected to the Templars (unless they are willing to sever those ties - permanently and completely).

1) Finn tried to kill him twice, that is worse. Templars never tried to kill him.
2) The elves are just as bad, xenophobic culture content to slaughter anyone different.
3) So what? I killed Finn, you going to kill me too? The Templars did it in self defense. She was out of control. Probably got herself killed.

The Kaija love path suddenly looks more appealing.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

That's kinda my problem with them, they should be operating in secret, they shouldn't be lying to or abandoning their families. They should be right out in the open, and if there's some shadow organization that won't let them operate in the open, then shut them down let everything go to hell and it will all be out in the open anyway. Like I said, I wouldn't want to lead them and if that somehow happened anyway, I wouldn't want to keep a single one of them on the team - not even Linnae. She's been the best of them, but she should retire and move on.

I agree with most of that, scary.

 

[Pixillin']

1) Finn tried to kill him twice, that is worse. Templars never tried to kill him.
2) The elves are just as bad, xenophobic culture content to slaughter anyone different.
3) So what? I killed Finn, you going to kill me too? The Templars did it in self defense. She was out of control. Probably got herself killed.

The Kaija love path suddenly looks more appealing.

She did, but if you don't kill her she changes - not just her actions, but her views, so does Medb - partially through MC and partially through the changed Finn. Unless there is some new update that I don't know about, I don't think she attacked. I suspect that she was on a peace mission. And as far as I'm concerned the Templars, his parents especially, did try to kill him at least indirectly by not telling him about the world he had been born into and that there was and always would be a target on his back. The elves are xenophobic because humans have been trying to kill them and driving them into ever smaller areas of land for hundreds / thousands of years. MC managed to break through that and convince them that something else was possible - and then they killed Finn. And no ... I'm not going to kill you ... I have no idea who you are, only that you're Australian(?) which means you are about as far from me as you could be and still be on this planet and I'd never even be mad at someone for playing the game the way they want to. I may disagree with them, but that's about it.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

can always go back to the Kaija wars for the 100th time

SSSSHHHHHHHH! Don't wake the baby.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

She did, but if you don't kill her she changes - not just her actions, but her views, so does Medb - partially through MC and partially through the changed Finn. Unless there is some new update that I don't know about, I don't think she attacked. I suspect that she was on a peace mission. And as far as I'm concerned the Templars, his parents especially, did try to kill him at least indirectly by not telling him about the world he had been born into and that there was and always would be a target on his back. The elves are xenophobic because humans have been trying to kill them and driving them into ever smaller areas of land for hundreds / thousands of years. MC managed to break through that and convince them that something else was possible - and then they killed Finn. And no ... I'm not going to kill you ... I have no idea who you are, only that you're Australian(?) which means you are about as far from me as you could be and still be on this planet and I'd never even be mad at someone for playing the game the way they want to. I may disagree with them, but that's about it.

You raise some very good points, Unfortunately, I have run out of time for now. I'll come back to it later if I get a chance.

 

[xapican]

SSSSHHHHHHHH! Don't wake the baby.

Thank you ! you seem suddently not so Old !

 

[Dr.TSoni]

The Kaija love path suddenly looks more appealing.

 

[SamualHand]

View attachment 4590239

The black dwarf with the helmet is coming .... maybe he brings puppies too?