VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

She did, but if you don't kill her she changes - not just her actions, but her views, so does Medb - partially through MC and partially through the changed Finn.

She appears to change, you really don't know if she is being normal until you do something she is offended by again and she could very well try to kill you again. It's too short a time frame for me to believe someone who wanted to kill me so badly has truly changed, I don't believe it. Medb on the other hand is a long term character and despite her hatred of humans didn't try and kill me even though she had the opportunity. Do you see the difference.

Unless there is some new update that I don't know about, I don't think she attacked. I suspect that she was on a peace mission.

If it was a peace mission the elves would have said to make a favorable impression on the MC. They had him on side. A peace mission would have cemented his feelings. They did the opposite, they made sure he knew no details. They were trying to hide what they were doing. There was no reason to hide a pace mission, but every reason to hide a hostile mission against human interests.

And as far as I'm concerned the Templars, his parents especially, did try to kill him at least indirectly by not telling him about the world he had been born into and that there was and always would be a target on his back. The elves are xenophobic because humans have been trying to kill them and driving them into ever smaller areas of land for hundreds / thousands of years. MC managed to break through that and convince them that something else was possible - and then they killed Finn. And no ...

Poor judgment is not trying to kill someone, it would be manslaughter at best. Finn wanted to fill the MC with holes until he was dead. She had willful intent. The parents just fucked up. Big difference. I'm no fan of the parents, but they didn't try to deliberately kill the MC, Finn did twice.

I'm not going to kill you ... I have no idea who you are, only that you're Australian(?) which means you are about as far from me as you could be and still be on this planet and I'd never even be mad at someone for playing the game the way they want to. I may disagree with them, but that's about it.

All good, I didn't think you would, I was making a point through exaggeration. I can't remember what that is called at the moment.

We will have to agree to disagree I think. It's great to see you can have a good discussion, I was concerned there for a while. I was starting to think you might need some help.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

Thank you ! you seem suddently not so Old !

I'm not sure about that, feeling extra old tonight.

 

[Knightcvel]

I don't resent the fact of Finn trying to kill MC. The elves culture is different, but they are more trustfull and honorable. I attribute her attitudes to cultural differences and old grudges. As soon as her trust was conquered they changed their ways and treated MC with more respect. Actually, the elf society is better than human in a lot of aspects.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

more trustfull and honorable

These words are not applicable to "the duel is until the death of one of the two" "you drew your sword to protect yourself from an attack, you accepted the duel" and last but not least "you won the duel, it doesn't necessarily have to end with the death of one of you, we can end it here in friendship"

 

[xapican]

These words are not applicable to "the duel is until the death of one of the two" "you drew your sword to protect yourself from an attack, you accepted the duel" and last but not least "you won the duel, it doesn't necessarily have to end with the death of one of you, we can end it here in friendship"

just a small detail, if the MC wouldn't be attacked, then the Magical enhancement of "Durendal" wouldn't be activated and he were killed by Finn, since he is clearly not trained in swordfight, and hand to hand combat.

 

[Knightcvel]

just a small detail, if the MC wouldn't be attacked, then the Magical enhancement of "Durendal" wouldn't be activated and he were killed by Finn, since he is clearly not trained in swordfight, and hand to hand combat.

Linnae had already introduced him to the basics at the time.

 

[xapican]

Linnae had already introduced him to the basics at the time.

Yes, and if you are on the Kaija friend or LI path and you sparred with her, you have a bit more combat skill, and are able to get the achievement with Nightingale, never the less, Finn has perfected combat, since a early age and she is 200 yrs old, so no no chance against her without magical buff, just remeber how shocked Nightingale was, on the first attack of Finn, she said after that she barley saw her moving.

 

[e6mill]

Finn has perfected combat, since a early age and she is 200 yrs old, so no no chance against her without magical buff, just remeber how shocked Nightingale was, on the first attack of Finn, she said after that she barley saw her moving.

 

[Knightcvel]

MC has a debt with Nightingale. He will have to fist fight for that sword. I wonder if he has more latent skills that will rise in the heat of the moment.

 

[xapican]

fist fight for that sword

Not shure if it was a hand to hand or a fencing dare, iirc Nightingale challenged him to a swordfight.

 

[RNasc4444]

she is 200 yrs old

*was

 

[e6mill]

Not shure if it was a hand to hand or a fencing dare, iirc Nightingale challenged him to a swordfight.

He haggled her down to fisticuffs.

 

[Knightcvel]

It will be hand combat. Nightingale refused to fight with swords after seeing MC dealing with Finn in their first contact.

 

[Wolfram99]

MC has a debt with Nightingale. He will have to fist fight for that sword. I wonder if he has more latent skills that will rise in the heat of the moment.

Another one for the duel till death?
SIGN ME UP!

 

[ename144]

A further point - which a lot of alfar lovers here fail to consider - is that the templars are probably the best safeguared for neverwhere and the alfar.

Medb says herself that they could never compete with all of humankind simply because of the numbers.

IF the templars fall and neverwhere becomes public knowledge, neverwhere would get swarmed by humans sooner or later. We would invade, colonize and breed like humans do.

At some point even the alfar territory could become affected.

Overall i feel like a lot of people here look at this conflict with way too much emotions involved (similar to the mc), at least if they want the mc to become someone making a difference and not staying a kid throwing tantrums.

I would argue even if you think the templars are the pure evil, its not smart to cut ties with them, it just restricts the mcs influence, knowledge and information as long as there is no hard choice to make.

Eh, I don't think we know any of that for sure. Humanity may be in a position to swarm the Alfar, but the Alfar don't control Neverwhere; that's controlled by an unknown cabal drawn from an unknown number of worlds. We have no idea how well humanity would do if they tried to swarm Neverwhere, though my guess is "poorly."

I don't see them as a lost cause of corruption. They definitely need a change in leadership.

I think the example of Linnae is a good illustration. Linnae has devoted herself to the Templars to the point of giving up her family and then risks her position by circumventing the leadership. She has lost respect for the leadership. She didn't care she was kicked out of the council. Why would she. They are inept fools, just trying to stick old bandaids on new wounds. She doesn't want to be associated with the council yet she is still devoted to the Templars as she hasn't lost faith in the organization, just the leadership. Hence why she wanted to explain the Templars to the MC. She wanted him to understand the Templars aren't the leadership.

I see the Linnae illustration almost exactly inverted, because she was the only remotely competent member of Templar leadership we've seen, and she insisted on resigning at the first opportunity rather than rolling up her sleeves and fixing the damn problems. If her actions are so beyond the pale in Templar eyes then it's probably best to let the order collapse completely and build a new one from scratch - assuming there really is a useful role for them. I'm still waiting to learn what they actually *do*.

Yes, and if you are on the Kaija friend or LI path and you sparred with her, you have a bit more combat skill, and are able to get the achievement with Nightingale, never the less, Finn has perfected combat, since a early age and she is 200 yrs old, so no no chance against her without magical buff, just remeber how shocked Nightingale was, on the first attack of Finn, she said after that she barley saw her moving.

Based on her performance, I'd say Finnabair's combat skills fall well short of perfection. She's quick and can aim a blade, but she was hopelessly outclassed (by a complete novice!) when it came to planning a fight - much less grasping when to fight in the first place. Oberon struck me as a formidable warrior. Finn, not so much.

 

[Pixillin']

I see the Linnae illustration almost exactly inverted, because she was the only remotely competent member of Templar leadership we've seen, and she insisted on resigning at the first opportunity rather than rolling up her sleeves and fixing the damn problems. If her actions are so beyond the pale in Templar eyes then it's probably best to let the order collapse completely and build a new one from scratch - assuming there really is a useful role for them. I'm still waiting to learn what they actually *do*.

I agree. Strategically, the best course of action would be to let the Templars collapse completely, then wait and let the things the Templars fight run amok for a while, then when it's no longer possible to keep a secret, that's when you fight back - and then you can recruit soldiers from all over the world and probably raise all the money you need to equip and train them.

Based on her performance, I'd say Finnabair's combat skills fall well short of perfection. She's quick and can aim a blade, but she was hopelessly outclassed (by a complete novice!) when it came to planning a fight - much less grasping when to fight in the first place. Oberon struck me as a formidable warrior. Finn, not so much.

She was beaten by a novice because he had magical powers and a magical sword. Otherwise - there's zero chance that MC with his one single sword lesson beats someone who has been training for 200 years.

 

[ename144]

I agree. Strategically, the best course of action would be to let the Templars collapse completely, then wait and let the things the Templars fight run amok for a while, then when it's no longer possible to keep a secret, that's when you fight back - and then you can recruit soldiers from all over the world and probably raise all the money you need to equip and train them.

Sure, if you're obsessed with spilling the secret, that works. I'm more interested in learning who is enforcing the secret before I go poking them in the eye. See my previous comment about the cabal.

She was beaten by a novice because he had magical powers and a magical sword. Otherwise - there's zero chance that MC with his one single sword lesson beats someone who has been training for 200 years.

No, the MC was able to match Finnabair's reflexes and stamina because he had a magic sword. He was able to outthink and eventually defeat her because she was an idiot.

 

[Pixillin']

Sure, if you're obsessed with spilling the secret, that works. I'm more interested in learning who is enforcing the secret before I go poking them in the eye. See my previous comment about the cabal.


No, the MC was able to match Finnabair's reflexes and stamina because he had a magic sword. He was able to outthink and eventually defeat her because she was an idiot.

Hard disagree about Finn - but I'd definitely poke the cabal in the eye. Even the Templars say they can't handle everything because they're understaffed, and they're understaffed because it's the same handful of families + a few orphans here and there filling the ranks. If the secret was out there would be more than enough soldiers, you'd be able to have well trained, well armed guards at every passage into Neverwhere and the Templars wouldn't be able to turn into a greedy, corrupt, incompetent little cabal - hiding everything from public view. If the evil cabal - whoever they are - comes after MC for it, then so be it.

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

I see the Linnae illustration almost exactly inverted, because she was the only remotely competent member of Templar leadership we've seen, and she insisted on resigning at the first opportunity rather than rolling up her sleeves and fixing the damn problems. If her actions are so beyond the pale in Templar eyes then it's probably best to let the order collapse completely and build a new one from scratch - assuming there really is a useful role for them. I'm still waiting to learn what they actually *do*.

Linnae was forced to resign for making the decision to send the MC to see Neverwhere. She was trying to prepare him and do the right thing. She was pretty sure defying the council was going to cost her position, but she chose to do it because it was the right thing to do in her eyes.

I don't see Linnae as the one to lead the Templars, but I see her as someone who will do the best she can to support a leader/council she respects.

 

[Dessolos]

I'm actually worried about the MC's fight with the Nightingale I still don't think he is gonna really be able to put up a good fight unless he can activate his swords magic