VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

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ename144

ename144

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Ciaran8023 said:
Neither is easy to teach but judgement is far harder as it relies more on your natural instincts and deduction abilities.
And of course, it is more likely because the 'strong leader' is more likely to push themselves into a position where they have control over other people rather than the one with the actual skills to anticipate shit and deduce the best course of action, but it doesn't mean that it's the optimal way to do things.
How many times throughout mankind have we seen people in position of leadership that decides to complete ignore their MUCH more intelligent advisors and do dumb shit? Quite a lot, mainly because if you lack judgement as a leader, you can't even tell that what you're doing is a dumb idea.

This is the basis of my argument as to why someone with a natural sense of judgement is better to have in that position to begin with, given that you can always fake confidence but you can't fake intelligence.
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That sounds great, but what would happen in that case is exactly what happened with Linnae: she tried to keep things on track but was largely ignored, then quit as soon as the going got tough. You can't fake charisma any more than you can intelligence.

Putting a person with sound judgement but no leadership skills in charge of an organization will minimize the risk of said organization doing something stupid (at least in the short term), but only by maximizing the change that it won't be doing much of anything at all. To me that's still a fail state, even if it's technically better than letting a charismatic madman instigate a catastrophe. If you want a positive outcome, you need to take a chance on someone who can get things done. IMHO.
 
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Ciaran8023

Ciaran8023

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ename144 said:
That sounds great, but what would happen in that case is exactly what happened with Linnae: she tried to keep things on track but was largely ignored, then quit as soon as the going got tough. You can't fake charisma any more than you can intelligence.

Putting a person with sound judgement but no leadership skills in charge of an organization will minimize the risk of said organization doing something stupid (at least in the short term), but only by maximizing the change that it won't be doing much of anything at all. To me that's still a fail state, even if it's technically better than letting a charismatic madman instigate a catastrophe. If you want a positive outcome, you need to take a chance on someone who can get things done. IMHO.
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There's a caveat, she didn't exactly have to deal with advisors or regular joes, she dealt with other people who are "strong leaders" because they have an extremely strong personality, but who also wanted the power she held. I'd be hard pressed to see how you'd suggest that any of the council would be a better fit for a leader than she would.
I mean hell, she was by far the more popular and forthcoming council leader to the rest of the Templar's, so by that extension she still has a lot of charisma, she just can't sway idiots fueled by pride. NO ONE can sway idiots fueled by pride.

Slow action is much less of a fail state than complete nuclear fallout resulting in mass casualties.
The parties "who can get things done" are the same individuals who wants to start a war with the elves and have no qualms about it, and keep in mind as I pointed out, the only reason as to why she had issues was because of the aforementioned genocidal warmongers driven by pride.
If they weren't in the equation at all, the Templar's would be in a MUCH better state under Linnae compared to the other yokels, therefore strengthening the argument that someone with judgement is a far better fit than someone with a glaring craving for power and subpar judgement, and I think you would have a difficult time arguing against this in good faith.
 
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Pixillin'

Pixillin'

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My take on the elves isn't that they're particularly vindictive, just that they are extremely defensive. IIRC they talk about once having walked the Earth, and Neverwhere but were pushed back, and wiped out until they reached their last sort of stronghold - and they wouldn't allow the humans to get a foothold there. IMO (and the way I'm playing this) is that the Elves are the 'good guys' and the Templars are not - whether we're supposed to choose sides or not, I have and if it turns out the Elves are awful too - then maybe I'll side with the demons and just blow everyone up.
 
Pixillin'

Pixillin'

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UnoriginalUserName said:
Clearly you've never worked in sales, or had to deal with sales management. :ROFLMAO:
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No some (not particularly charismatic) salespeople can seem charismatic to some, in the same way a person who isn't very bright can still convince their dog they're a genius. I shut down salespeople as soon as they try the fake charm.
 
Ciaran8023

Ciaran8023

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Pixillin' said:
My take on the elves isn't that they're particularly vindictive, just that they are extremely defensive. IIRC they talk about once having walked the Earth, and Neverwhere but were pushed back, and wiped out until they reached their last sort of stronghold - and they wouldn't allow the humans to get a foothold there. IMO (and the way I'm playing this) is that the Elves are the 'good guys' and the Templars are not - whether we're supposed to choose sides or not, I have and if it turns out the Elves are awful too - then maybe I'll side with the demons and just blow everyone up.
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Well, they kind of do still hold a grudge after all that time, and it makes sense since they live for I dunno how many years (can't recall specifics but it was a long ass time).
That being said, even with them being vindictive or atleast very antagonistic due to past experiences dealing with humans, they still come out on top as the more reasonable of the two when compared to the Templar's.

I'd also side with the Elves honestly, and with the way things are going, I have a sneaking suspicion that the Templar's are going to get infiltrated by the demons or atleast someone working with the demons, with how poorly they're currently set up.
 
Pixillin'

Pixillin'

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Ciaran8023 said:
Well, they kind of do still hold a grudge after all that time, and it makes sense since they live for I dunno how many years (can't recall specifics but it was a long ass time).
That being said, even with them being vindictive or atleast very antagonistic due to past experiences dealing with humans, they still come out on top as the more reasonable of the two when compared to the Templar's.

I'd also side with the Elves honestly, and with the way things are going, I have a sneaking suspicion that the Templar's are going to get infiltrated by the demons or atleast someone working with the demons, with how poorly they're currently set up.
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The next update should be interesting and (for me) short. I think, if you don't include the bartender, I have about 10 relationship points with everyone in the human world combined.
 
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DaFinker

DaFinker

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UnoriginalUserName said:
Clearly you've never worked in sales, or had to deal with sales management. :ROFLMAO:
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Sales folks usually have some degree of charisma, but I can always tell when they're faking intelligence. I'd say about 98% of them are faking 100% of the time. ;)

And the further up they move, the more all the victories rely upon them, but all the failures are entirely someone else's fault. :sneaky::LOL:
 
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ename144

ename144

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UnoriginalUserName said:
Clearly you've never worked in sales, or had to deal with sales management. :ROFLMAO:
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On the contrary, I have. I could never even pretend to enjoy chatting that much!


Ciaran8023 said:
There's a caveat, she didn't exactly have to deal with advisors or regular joes, she dealt with other people who are "strong leaders" because they have an extremely strong personality, but who also wanted the power she held. I'd be hard pressed to see how you'd suggest that any of the council would be a better fit for a leader than she would.
I mean hell, she was by far the more popular and forthcoming council leader to the rest of the Templar's, so by that extension she still has a lot of charisma, she just can't sway idiots fueled by pride. NO ONE can sway idiots fueled by pride.

Slow action is much less of a fail state than complete nuclear fallout resulting in mass casualties.
The parties "who can get things done" are the same individuals who wants to start a war with the elves and have no qualms about it, and keep in mind as I pointed out, the only reason as to why she had issues was because of the aforementioned genocidal warmongers driven by pride.
If they weren't in the equation at all, the Templar's would be in a MUCH better state under Linnae compared to the other yokels, therefore strengthening the argument that someone with judgement is a far better fit than someone with a glaring craving for power and subpar judgement, and I think you would have a difficult time arguing against this in good faith.
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My argument against it is precisely that the Templars under Linnae would become the Templars under one of those yokels in short order. Even if you somehow forced her into the position of Grandmaster, she has neither the skills nor temperament to hold the position for long. At best she would delay the issue for a few months. The best of a bad lot is still bad.

But it seems like we're going to have to agree to disagree on this.
 
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Knightcvel

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I think Linnae has the best qualities for ruling the templars. She is for recruting among the general population, a thing that MC's father is against, even under the risk posed by the dwindling numbers of an other that depends of raising kids to replenish it. She was open about her life and activities to her husband and family which means she had moral and ethic atributtes of not using deception in her activities. Depending of the scenary she was the only one to be against using Kaija to watch on MC, aware of the implications before hand, which means she is able of foreseeing the consequences of actions. She is able to put that young templar in his place which means she is able to get a hold on her subordinates. I think she is more qualified than to be the grand master than Roland and even more qualified for leadership than MC himself.
 
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PaxHadrian17

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xapican said:
Yeah sorry I thought you speak German, you know what forget it acept my apologies, and it is best I bail out of this thread.
Have fun yer all and enjoy your game !
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We will have a new update coming in ~ a month so we will all have more information for our speculations about the factions and who is the best girl. Hope to see you after the next release if not sooner!

Cheers!! :coffee:
 
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4.30 star(s) 69 Votes