VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.6.0.2] [Ceolag]

[Knightcvel]

Honestly her "betrayal and lies" didn't even feel like one or was even a big deal to me. I kind of brushed off and never thought about it again ( only the MC ever gave it another thought in the story not me) after the reveal and kept romancing her because how much I liked her character from saving us and everything I like about her.

It was only when I came to this thread after my first playthrough I thought about it some when reading other point views and was shocked to find out how big of deal it was for other given how she saved and how it was a secret that wasn't hers to tell. That was when I realized im more of an understanding person than I realized since none of the negatives ever crossed my mind



I only played 2 paths. so far but I honestly liked Chapter 6 more than Chapter 5 but that is because I really liked the romance / dates / hangouts with those paths I played and they happen to be my 2 favorite characters and I been looking forward to progress on their romance paths. But yeah from a story telling pov Ch 5 was better. tho I did dislike the start of Ch 6 for sure

I think it's a commom plot in fiction having a coming of age story where a young man has a secret legacy he is unaware until a big reveal. It allows to introduce the world setting for the audience who will learn everything with the MC. But in this case it involved tight monitoring, a conspiracy to prevent him of acquiring knowledge involving his father, mother and his lover and even his job is part of the glass cage they locked him. It's not like most of young adult fiction. If it was only the parents, or Kaija, but the whole plot to control his entire life is that makes everything less acceptable. It's like The Truman Show.

 

[RNasc4444]

I can see why she's not planning to help you out then...

Which in itself is kind of a problem, no?

In this game, the lore and story is actually locked behind the characters. Not even only the LI's. Which means that if you aren't somewhat in everyone's good graces and/or path you will be missing large chunks of story. If not all of it.

If I didn't check all the content and scenes that don't trigger in my playthrough I would know less than 10% of wtf is going on in this game. And I mean this literally.If you think this is hyperbole, try for yourself. Do a quick run, get negative combined LI points, burn bridges, reject Kate, Anissa and Kari, reject Finn and training and see how much is revealed to you. It's borderline unplayable.

And since I don't see a harem tag, it looks like you are forced to do multiple playthroughs and not shut anybody out if you want to know what is going on. Kind of a shitty way to tell a story. But it doesn't really bother me since I check all content for every game I play anyways even if it isn't canon for me. So my MC may bein the dark about pretty much everything but at least I know wtf is going on

 

[Maccabbee]

Which in itself is kind of a problem, no?

In this game, the lore and story is actually locked behind the characters. Not even only the LI's. Which means that if you aren't somewhat in everyone's good graces and/or path you will be missing large chunks of story. If not all of it.

If I didn't check all the content and scenes that don't trigger in my playthrough I would know less than 10% of wtf is going on in this game. And I mean this literally.If you think this is hyperbole, try for yourself. Do a quick run, get negative combined LI points, burn bridges, reject Kate, Anissa and Kari, reject Finn and training and see how much is revealed to you. It's borderline unplayable.

And since I don't see a harem tag, it looks like you are forced to do multiple playthroughs and not shut anybody out if you want to know what is going on. Kind of a shitty way to tell a story. But it doesn't really bother me since I check all content for every game I play anyways even if it isn't canon for me. So my MC may bein the dark about pretty much everything but at least I know wtf is going on

I'm treating this as a harem game, insofar as I am going as high RP with everyone as possible. I am sure Kaija or someone will kill me for it eventually.

By the way, is anyone else really pleased that Kaija is Finnish? We don't see too many of that kind of Scandinavian in games.

 

[Pixillin']

I can see why she's not planning to help you out then...

But it still feels like MC should so something besides watch TV - talk to people in Neverwhere, hire Nightengale again (and get her to take cash this time), just shrugging and going back to work kind of kills any impact of Chapter 5

 

[Dessolos]

I'm treating this as a harem game, insofar as I am going as high RP with everyone as possible. I am sure Kaija or someone will kill me for it eventually.

By the way, is anyone else really pleased that Kaija is Finnish? We don't see too many of that kind of Scandinavian in games.

that's one of my saves but I think I need to make a 2nd cheating save I think there might be a away to keep Elea which I didn't realize at the time of making the cheating save. I think if I tell Kaija I want to take a step back I can maybe have everyone until it blows up in my face.

 

[kazeiheikaya]

I really don't understand people here, hating Kaija for lying and being deceptive (understandable somewhat), even though she saved the MC’s life, while loving Finn and completely brushing off the fact that he tried to kill him multiple times.

Easiest answer : One was honest with their intentions, the other was living an entire life of a lie because she felt necessary to do it for the sake of "Duty."

More complex answer : You'd have to be in a situation where a girl, a friend, or someone close to you in some medium openly reveals that they never really liked you and only stuck around you because of a reason that was personally beneficial to them. Thats why we dont like Kaija.

I also dont think people are really open to the elves, themselves, but open to Medb and Finn moreso. Even from my viewpoint the Elves are also corrupt, similar to the templars theres racism on both sides that controls them and has bad actors in both parties. Even Medb seemed to notice that. However when it comes to Finn, Finn was openly against you, hated you deeply, wanted to kill you in every way, until she was put in her place, then she came around, she shared genuine authentic moments with MC and had a deep connection with him, even going as far to change her entire worldview of just being a racist piece of shit cocky elf to an understanding, compassionate level that unfortunately ended up in her own demise standing between the Templars and the Elves, some slight foreshadowing for MC if he were to try and do the same I guess. Basically saying he HAS to pick a side if the time comes.

Kaija's entire life with the MC was a lie, her entire romance with the MC was a lie, theres very small choices you can pick, that can affect the relationship enough to see how Kaija probably would genuinely feel in that situation which honestly makes the most sense because you cant genuinely force someone to love you just because they spend all their time around you. A lot of us probably see that for what it is. The fact that if you just go down a very slight deviation with Kaija she basically goes completely cold towards you, then the alternatives is a "we should be apart but still see each other" or "straight love" route. Kaija is very cold in every route outside the flat love route. She doesn't treat MC like a lifelong friend in a lot of ways, she's very upholding to her duty as a Templar, even when theres blatant problems she tends to feign ignorance, she's also not really there for the MC in the ways you would expect someone to be that's been with you, your entire life.

Thats how I view it anyway. It's hard to trust or respect a person that was set up in your life as a plant and just doesn't try any harder than they should to stay with the person. The whole entire relationship is built on a house of cards. If you're cool with that by all means, but all in all, I would never be able to be with a person like that lol. If I found out 10 years from now my wife was a plant by my parents because they didn't want me to marry some harlot that was going to destroy me and wanted to give me the illusion of a stable relationship, I'd likely kms. Would be such an insanely huge betrayal by not only my family but my own wife lol.

 

[Krytax123]

Which in itself is kind of a problem, no?

In this game, the lore and story is actually locked behind the characters. Not even only the LI's. Which means that if you aren't somewhat in everyone's good graces and/or path you will be missing large chunks of story. If not all of it.

If I didn't check all the content and scenes that don't trigger in my playthrough I would know less than 10% of wtf is going on in this game. And I mean this literally.If you think this is hyperbole, try for yourself. Do a quick run, get negative combined LI points, burn bridges, reject Kate, Anissa and Kari, reject Finn and training and see how much is revealed to you. It's borderline unplayable.

I mean is that really a problem? I would consider it realistic/immersive.

If you play a guy who says "fuck you, leave me alone" to everyone, you lack intel because nobody likes you and youre a jerk who sucks

I think this is a kinda cool development style and i said from the very beginning that throwing a tantrum and not talking to kaija/the parents anymore is stupid even if you intend to destroy/reorganise/whatever the templars. It just shows that you act like a over-emotional baby (which fits the mc tbf) without any kind of long-term thinking.

So it kinda depends what kind of mc you want to play, i think its fair to lack information or even get a dead end/bad ending if you dont make alliances in a setting like that.

The way to go is - obviously - to not be a sad little emo bitch and to get as much information as possible from all sources (even possbile enemys) if you want the mc to be the one who takes charge and does something useful.

Otherwise you can say fuck you to everyone and work at the fake company

 

[Daermon420]

Easiest answer : One was honest with their intentions, the other was living an entire life of a lie because she felt necessary to do it for the sake of "Duty."

More complex answer : You'd have to be in a situation where a girl, a friend, or someone close to you in some medium openly reveals that they never really liked you and only stuck around you because of a reason that was personally beneficial to them. Thats why we dont like Kaija.

I also dont think people are really open to the elves, themselves, but open to Medb and Finn moreso. Even from my viewpoint the Elves are also corrupt, similar to the templars theres racism on both sides that controls them and has bad actors in both parties. Even Medb seemed to notice that. However when it comes to Finn, Finn was openly against you, hated you deeply, wanted to kill you in every way, until she was put in her place, then she came around, she shared genuine authentic moments with MC and had a deep connection with him, even going as far to change her entire worldview of just being a racist piece of shit cocky elf to an understanding, compassionate level that unfortunately ended up in her own demise standing between the Templars and the Elves, some slight foreshadowing for MC if he were to try and do the same I guess. Basically saying he HAS to pick a side if the time comes.

Kaija's entire life with the MC was a lie, her entire romance with the MC was a lie, theres very small choices you can pick, that can affect the relationship enough to see how Kaija probably would genuinely feel in that situation which honestly makes the most sense because you cant genuinely force someone to love you just because they spend all their time around you. A lot of us probably see that for what it is. The fact that if you just go down a very slight deviation with Kaija she basically goes completely cold towards you, then the alternatives is a "we should be apart but still see each other" or "straight love" route. Kaija is very cold in every route outside the flat love route. She doesn't treat MC like a lifelong friend in a lot of ways, she's very upholding to her duty as a Templar, even when theres blatant problems she tends to feign ignorance, she's also not really there for the MC in the ways you would expect someone to be that's been with you, your entire life.

Thats how I view it anyway. It's hard to trust or respect a person that was set up in your life as a plant and just doesn't try any harder than they should to stay with the person. The whole entire relationship is built on a house of cards. If you're cool with that by all means, but all in all, I would never be able to be with a person like that lol. If I found out 10 years from now my wife was a plant by my parents because they didn't want me to marry some harlot that was going to destroy me and wanted to give me the illusion of a stable relationship, I'd likely kms. Would be such an insanely huge betrayal by not only my family but my own wife lol.

^ All of this.

Plus on a more superficial note I just find Kaija unattractive visually. One of my first thoughts the first time I played this was eww when can I dump the girlfriend, even before all the deceit was revealed.

 

[prpa]

The fact that if you just go down a very slight deviation with Kaija she basically goes completely cold towards you, then the alternatives is a "we should be apart but still see each other" or "straight love" route. Kaija is very cold in every route outside the flat love route. She doesn't treat MC like a lifelong friend in a lot of ways, she's very upholding to her duty as a Templar, even when theres blatant problems she tends to feign ignorance, she's also not really there for the MC in the ways you would expect someone to be that's been with you, your entire life.

I replayed the parts with Kaija where the main character doesn't forgive her and is antagonistic, and I don't think she comes off as cold. Yes, she's somewhat withdrawn, but I believe that's her way of protecting herself.

But let's not beat a dead horse, we've already discussed this. I agree with some of the points people made, disagree with others, and I still like Kaija the best.

 

[Pixillin']

So it kinda depends what kind of mc you want to play, i think its fair to lack information or even get a dead end/bad ending if you dont make alliances in a setting like that.

The way to go is - obviously - to not be a sad little emo bitch and to get as much information as possible from all sources (even possbile enemys) if you want the mc to be the one who takes charge and does something useful.

Otherwise you can say fuck you to everyone and work at the fake company

Not to be a sad little emo bitch, but I'll still play this my way - given the choices I'm allowed, which means I won't go pretend to like Kajia or the Parents again just to get information. My allies are Medb and the Elves. It's sad that the Dev had us do nothing about Finn if we weren't on some kind of Kajia path, and it's sad that Jessica turned out to be unreliable as an ally and an overall liability, but I'll wait for my chances. The upsides of this approach is a) it's still honorable. I'm not sneaking about, deceiving people and operating under false pretenses and b) As far as my MC knows Finn's murder was officially sanctioned, so I can safely take revenge on any or all of them if the opportunity arises. (Jess did say she'd find out what happened, but she just ghosted on that one.) I have no intention of leading the Templars or fixing the Templars. That was never part of the plan.

 

[ename144]

There’s a crucial difference between killing someone in immediate self-defense and choosing to execute a disarmed person simply because they might pose a threat in the future.

Killing her after disarming her isn’t moral, it's just punitive.

The MC *offered* her a chance to surrender while he held her at swordpoint. She not only refused, she threatened to kill him yet again.

The MC refusing to execute her at that point is him being deliberately suicidal. It's not an entirely unreasonable choice even so (given why he set out to visit the elves), but the notion that Finnabair was harmless is flat out wrong. Killing her would have been completely justified, and the fact the Alfar will punish the MC for it says all we need to know about them.

It seems odd to me that there isn't more discussion about how or if Sayo will be punished for stabbing Finnabair in the back!

If the MC can't even be bothered to find out what happened at her trial, why should we think it's worth discussing? Nothing happened in this update. That's the problem.

 

[Pixillin']

^ All of this.

Plus on a more superficial note I just find Kaija unattractive visually. One of my first thoughts the first time I played this was eww when can I dump the girlfriend, even before all the deceit was revealed.

I didn't like the way she looked either, but the kicker for me was when MC came home with the offer of a new promotion and couldn't even get a text from his supposed GF, I decided that the relationship was bad and MC needed to look elsewhere. It would have been interesting to see what happened / what the parental reaction was if you just dumped Kajia before learning anything about the Templars. WTF is she supposed to do then? Would they send in someone else?

 

[Pixillin']

The MC *offered* her a chance to surrender while he held her at swordpoint. She not only refused, she threatened to kill him yet again.

The MC refusing to execute her at that point is him being deliberately suicidal. It's not an entirely unreasonable choice even so (given why he set out to visit the elves), but the notion that Finnabair was harmless is flat out wrong. Killing her would have been completely justified, and the fact the Alfar will punish the MC for it says all we need to know about them.

Except it doesn't tell us much. MC isn't just being punished for defeating Finn (if you kill her) - he's an unwelcome visitor, a Templar in Elf territory and both Nightingale and Finn's father tell you that you won't be welcome and should just turn back. When you get there, before Finn's challenge, Medb is not happy to see you and is about to kick you out - so if you then kill her daughter, it doesn't soften her attitude any. You're being punished for being a Templar in Elf territory and then you're still being punished but with extra animosity.

 

[Bryan_Colt]

One of my favorite games got an update nice and thanks.

 

[ename144]

Except it doesn't tell us much. MC isn't just being punished for defeating Finn (if you kill her) - he's an unwelcome visitor, a Templar in Elf territory and both Nightingale and Finn's father tell you that you won't be welcome and should just turn back. When you get there, before Finn's challenge, Medb is not happy to see you and is about to kick you out - so if you then kill her daughter, it doesn't soften her attitude any. You're being punished for being a Templar in Elf territory and then you're still being punished but with extra animosity.

As I said, it tells us all we need to know about them.

 

[RNasc4444]

I mean is that really a problem? I would consider it realistic/immersive.

You cut out the part of my post where I clearly state this isn't really a problem for me because I end up using URM to watch all scenes, extracting rpa files to look at all renders and reading the script anyways

If you play a guy who says "fuck you, leave me alone" to everyone, you lack intel because nobody likes you and youre a jerk who sucks

I think this is a kinda cool development style and i said from the very beginning that throwing a tantrum and not talking to kaija/the parents anymore is stupid even if you intend to destroy/reorganise/whatever the templars. It just shows that you act like a over-emotional baby (which fits the mc tbf) without any kind of long-term thinking.

I get your point and agree to some extent but if the game gives you choices then it has to account for that. Locking crucial and basic info regarding the plot behind a "right choice" is not just moronic, it's bad design. At that point, just make a kinetic novel if you want to lead the player down a certain path or just give them the illusion of choice. I'm fine with not having access to quite a bit of lore but never such a crazy amount. Again I'm not exaggerating when I say you miss like 90% of the lore and story in my playthrough because the exposition is locked behind having a lot of points with a lot of characters.

So it kinda depends what kind of mc you want to play, i think its fair to lack information or even get a dead end/bad ending if you dont make alliances in a setting like that.

The way to go is - obviously - to not be a sad little emo bitch and to get as much information as possible from all sources (even possbile enemys) if you want the mc to be the one who takes charge and does something useful.

Again, I kinda get that but disagree. There is no other way to play this game for me. If I'm gonna play it, it HAS to be this way. Because I literally cannot stomach having to interact with these characters. It is not worth going through that to get the info. It actually makes me feel physically ill watching the MC talk to Kaija and correct her about the term "Elves" being offensive and them preferring the term Alfuck or whatever. It makes me angry and it takes away from my enjoyement of the game. Because I don't like the Elves. I don't respect them. I do not see them as victims and I do not wish to help them or be cordial. I see them as a possible threat to Mankind. I see Kaija and the parents as untrustworthy liars with whom I want no contact with. Elea and Fiona are sadly uninteresting and unattractive to me.

So yeah I'm willing to get no info if it means not having to engage with them. I'll take that trade. All I'm saying is I wish more lore/story exposition was made through other means. Let the MC use the Templar library or the Elfs library when he was there and read some books. Get some knowledge that or any other way. That's all.

Otherwise you can say fuck you to everyone and work at the fake company

I fucking wish!!!
Literally this is what I've wanted since I first started playing. My MC wishes he never got dragged into this shitshow to begin with. But now he's aware of a whole new world beyond his own that could pose a threat to humanity and he can't just sit back and do nothing. I'm playing as a Human Supremacist here I guess

And before I catch hate, let me say I like this game very much! I'm not being a hater or a troll. I'm not fishing for reactions or rage baiting. I've said this from the very moment I first finished a playthrough and posted my first comment on this thread: Game is very good, characters absolutely suck! (IN MY OPINION!!!). it's literally the only flaw I see here. Characters. From the design to backstories and personality. They're just not my cup of tea.

 

[Pixillin']

As I said, it tells us all we need to know about them.

Not really, Templars and Elves don't like each other. When Medb goes to the Templars, as an official messenger (not some rando who took it upon herself to come pay a visit) they Templars see it as a provocation. The Elves see it pretty much the same way, especially when you have no official reason to be there. They assume that you're a spy or something. The two groups do not do tourism or exchange programs. So them not wanting you there doesn't really tell you anything you didn't already know.

 

[xapican]

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I guess you can call me nitpicky but this kinda stuff fucks with my brain if I can't make sense of it.

Well, the chain of events leaves a lot to the imagination of the player,
after the Fireball, she is thrown backwards, MC finds her, with her head resting on the borderstone of the sidewalk (Bordstein in German) seems that she injuried her head there, they could have opened her skull to drain blood or to relive pressure of her skull, surgery often done after car accidents.
and ok this are all facts which I've come up with and which would sound more or less logic, and consitent with the images, if this is like this I don't know the only one who knows is Ceo.
but it sounds plausible, I know this is not enough for your critical thinking, it is just an explanation I've come up with after replaying the sequence.
Good thing this brought the long haired man in the background to my attention,

 

[xapican]

The way to go is - obviously - to not be a sad little emo bitch

Bwahahahaha ! that was a good one can't wait to say it to the "sad little emo bitch in my family"

 

[RNasc4444]

Well, the chain of events leaves a lot to the imagination of the player,
after the Fireball, she is thrown backwards, MC finds her, with her head resting on the borderstone of the sidewalk (Bordstein in German) seems that she injuried her head there, they could have opened her skull to drain blood or to relive pressure of her skull, surgery often done after car accidents.
and ok this are all facts which I've come up with and which would sound more or less logic, and consitent with the images, if this is like this I don't know the only one who knows is Ceo.
but it sounds plausible, I know this is not enough for your critical thinking, it is just an explanation I've come up with after replaying the sequence.
Good thing this brought the long haired man in the background to my attention,

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