Severthe

Newbie
Aug 17, 2019
33
122
I think the best way to handle loss/failure states in H-games is to largely avoid true "game-overs" or full resets, except when it's demanded by thematic context. Have the player-character wake up in some side-room that reconnects more or less back to where you were. That way it stays a part of an unbroken continuity, and enables players to have their cake and eat it too - enjoy "loss" scenes, without losing much progress.
I think you make some reasonable points about avoiding frustration and tedium for the player, but overall I have issues with this analysis. The biggest problem imo is your suggestions effectively amount to changing the genre of the game. The death-then-restart loop is core to what a roguelike game is. Alleviating this in favour of no true death-state, just never-ending progression with minor setbacks for failure fundamentally changes the whole nature of the game. At that point you might as well just be saying, "I don't like this genre, it should be this other genre instead."

For example, "Apostle Angel Liebe" by Mad-Script is a much more traditional rogue-like. You have two player-characters who have massive pools of energy, from which HP regenerates. When HP is 0, the character is simply knocked down for a couple turns. Energy depletes with movement, special ability use (iirc), HP regeneration and climaxes. HP can also be restored with potions to preserve energy. When one character's energy and HP are entirely depleted, they are captured and the other retreats. Your objective is then to attack a new dungeon to rescue the captured character - but you might have to wait and skip some time on the campaign layer to regenerate the surviving character's energy enough to succeed, and that's where the meat of its H-content is.

There are quite a few in-game animations, un-detailed, short and simple as they are - another developer might balance those things differently, and AAL certainly has plenty of its own flaws in terms of progression, gating content etc - but the overall principle is there. I get to experience almost all the game's content without continuity ever having to be broken, without being frustrated by the individual failure-states required to see it, and the only way I fully lose and have to reset or load an earlier save, is as a culmination of many prior failures - or it's directly engineered by me. In other words, you can lose many proverbial battles but still win the war.

Another couple examples would be Kudarizaka Guardrail's games - Quarta Knight Emerald/Amethyst - where the battles are pretty much all about H-attacks and their consequences stacking up, and persisting between them. I don't even remember if either of them had true game-overs to speak of, and IIRC you could reverse basically all the debuffs. If you were defeated, you got a scene and then crawled out of the bushes or whatever, and either continued the level or retreated to base.
For example, I haven't played these games you're suggesting here (but thanks for the recs! I might check them out), so please correct me if I'm wrong, but these don't actually sound like roguelikes to me. They sound more like at best faintly rogue-lite, taking the ideas of procedural battles/levels, but discarding permadeath entirely.

That is one way to get rid of any tedium induced by permadeath mechanics, but it's crucial to recognize that fans of the roguelike genre actually tend to like the permadeath. As far as we can tell, it seems pretty clear that Scarlet Paper has designed this game from the outset to involve permadeath as a primary mechanic. So if that mechanic is causing tedium for many players (and it's not just because those particular players aren't fans of permadeath games), then the right way to address it is to make the early levels less tedious to play, by introducing more enemy/trap variety, enabling ways for experienced players to move through early sections faster, and so on.

T&A is the main selling point of any game we talk about here. Anything else is secondary. The ideal H-game will accommodate both the player just looking to get their rocks off, and the player who wants to lock in for a challenge (with sex). Difficulty levels, cheats, galleries, level select etc are the most common ways around that and for good reason. Overall, it's about developers respecting the players' time and priorities.
I accept there's many players who would agree with you on this, and it's not necessarily bad advice for a lot of games. But I think there's also a difference in philosophy going on here about what games (and hentai games) are or should be. I don't think all games need to or even should try to accommodate both these types of players. Now, if what the dev cares most about is selling as many copies as possible to the widest audience possible, then sure they'll need to target the lowest-common-denominator of player. But not all games need to or should want to do that, or else we'd live in a pretty bland world.

Maybe that sounds silly to some people, but I do think (at least some) hentai games have the potential to be real works of (pornographic) art that are more than just pure consumer products whose main responsiblity is to "respect the players' [consumers'] time and priorities [demands]" ;).

P.S. I do agree with you that for all these games the porn is the main selling point. That's undoubtedly true, it's what gets hentai game players in the door (including myself). But I don't think that means anything else is secondary. A game can have amazing porn, but if the gameplay is garbage then the game becomes only worthwhile as a glorified image/animation gallery. And I think this is partly the reason so many people on F95 seem to just want gallery unlock codes for every game: because they're used to wading through garbage games with no challenge that are boring, mechanical copy-pastes of each other. So it becomes a self-reinforcing loop, where bad games set poor expectations, and poor expectations lead to pressure on devs to make bad games.
 
Aug 31, 2021
78
265
I think you make some reasonable points about avoiding frustration and tedium for the player, but overall I have issues with this analysis. The biggest problem imo is your suggestions effectively amount to changing the genre of the game. The death-then-restart loop is core to what a roguelike game is. Alleviating this in favour of no true death-state, just never-ending progression with minor setbacks for failure fundamentally changes the whole nature of the game. At that point you might as well just be saying, "I don't like this genre, it should be this other genre instead."



For example, I haven't played these games you're suggesting here (but thanks for the recs! I might check them out), so please correct me if I'm wrong, but these don't actually sound like roguelikes to me. They sound more like at best faintly rogue-lite, taking the ideas of procedural battles/levels, but discarding permadeath entirely.

That is one way to get rid of any tedium induced by permadeath mechanics, but it's crucial to recognize that fans of the roguelike genre actually tend to like the permadeath. As far as we can tell, it seems pretty clear that Scarlet Paper has designed this game from the outset to involve permadeath as a primary mechanic. So if that mechanic is causing tedium for many players (and it's not just because those particular players aren't fans of permadeath games), then the right way to address it is to make the early levels less tedious to play, by introducing more enemy/trap variety, enabling ways for experienced players to move through early sections faster, and so on.



I accept there's many players who would agree with you on this, and it's not necessarily bad advice for a lot of games. But I think there's also a difference in philosophy going on here about what games (and hentai games) are or should be. I don't think all games need to or even should try to accommodate both these types of players. Now, if what the dev cares most about is selling as many copies as possible to the widest audience possible, then sure they'll need to target the lowest-common-denominator of player. But not all games need to or should want to do that, or else we'd live in a pretty bland world.

Maybe that sounds silly to some people, but I do think (at least some) hentai games have the potential to be real works of (pornographic) art that are more than just pure consumer products whose main responsiblity is to "respect the players' [consumers'] time and priorities [demands]" ;).

P.S. I do agree with you that for all these games the porn is the main selling point. That's undoubtedly true, it's what gets hentai game players in the door (including myself). But I don't think that means anything else is secondary. A game can have amazing porn, but if the gameplay is garbage then the game becomes only worthwhile as a glorified image/animation gallery. And I think this is partly the reason so many people on F95 seem to just want gallery unlock codes for every game: because they're used to wading through garbage games with no challenge that are boring, mechanical copy-pastes of each other. So it becomes a self-reinforcing loop, where bad games set poor expectations, and poor expectations lead to pressure on devs to make bad games.

Didn't the dev say he was going to change a shit ton of the gameplay loop in coming updates? I can't remember exactly, but i think he said something about reinforcing the current gameplay loop to some extent.

Also, agree with you on most your points, most h-games have close to no gameplay. Thornsin is one of the few that's managed to do it well. Only other games i could say would have to be Iris, corrupted saviors, or maybe Alien quest eve. Reducing it further would be a great mistake. The game is also not that hard once you get a feel for the movement mechanics, even on the hardest difficulty.

I do wonder why people who just want to look at the sex scenes don't just go on rule 34 vid and just watch gallery vids there, or xvideos. Don't mistake me, i agree a gallery should be in place. But i feel like people are asking for something that's practically already here.
 

Zanurah

Member
Jul 10, 2022
185
435
Didn't the dev say he was going to change a shit ton of the gameplay loop in coming updates? I can't remember exactly, but i think he said something about reinforcing the current gameplay loop to some extent.

Also, agree with you on most your points, most h-games have close to no gameplay. Thornsin is one of the few that's managed to do it well. Only other games i could say would have to be Iris, corrupted saviors, or maybe Alien quest eve. Reducing it further would be a great mistake. The game is also not that hard once you get a feel for the movement mechanics, even on the hardest difficulty.

I do wonder why people who just want to look at the sex scenes don't just go on rule 34 vid and just watch gallery vids there, or xvideos. Don't mistake me, i agree a gallery should be in place. But i feel like people are asking for something that's practically already here.
Sinisistar + its sequel, Princess Reconquista and The Agnietta have better gameplay, among others. I still remember how much fun I had defeating the first boss in Agnietta especially. Wolf's Dungeon's gameplay is also surprisingly good despite its brush with only being difficult because of its very unforgiving controls. As for Thornsin? Eh... it's still far too repetitive and lacks weight to justify fighting hordes of the same enemy type per region. Same goes for Night of Revenge.

But then that's a problem with most games made specifically with the Unity Engine. Animations just feel too unnatural and appear 'floaty' compared to say pixel animated accomplishments like the other games I listed.
 

Krongorka

Active Member
Sep 22, 2017
865
2,794
But then that's a problem with most games made specifically with the Unity Engine. Animations just feel too unnatural and appear 'floaty' compared to say pixel animated accomplishments like the other games I listed.
I'll just note that game engine doesn't have to do anything with animations. TS/NoR animation is handled by Spine animation software. As far as I know multiple engines does support it (Unity, Unreal Engine, GODOT, cocos2d), but animation "look and feel" depends mostly on developers.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to play good games with pixel animations. Tight controls and accurate collisions are most important. Unfortunately I've seen too much games which didn't have neither of those.
 

Zanurah

Member
Jul 10, 2022
185
435
I'll just note that game engine doesn't have to do anything with animations. TS/NoR animation is handled by Spine animation software. As far as I know multiple engines does support it (Unity, Unreal Engine, GODOT, cocos2d), but animation "look and feel" depends mostly on developers.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to play good games with pixel animations. Tight controls and accurate collisions are most important. Unfortunately I've seen too much games which didn't have neither of those.
Thanks for clarifying! I'm not well versed with engine specifics and couldn't help but notice that games that had the issues I speak of use Unity, so I only assumed it was related to it. So, Spine animation software, eh? At least it has a name...
 

Krongorka

Active Member
Sep 22, 2017
865
2,794
Thanks for clarifying! I'm not well versed with engine specifics and couldn't help but notice that games that had the issues I speak of use Unity, so I only assumed it was related to it. So, Spine animation software, eh? At least it has a name...
Esoteric Software's Spine 2D, as they actually call it. Yeah, it's basically 2D/Sprite based but with skeleton rigging. TS's dev use latest iteration which also supports physics module which applies to hair/tits/clothes/etc.

TSgirl.png

^ PS: didn't know they actually set her clothes as a separate entity, huh... *loli tag *cough*
 

TJ412

Member
Sep 24, 2018
243
256
there's also a difference in philosophy going on here about what games (and hentai games) are or should be.
That's the long and short of it - I personally would never play a game resembling Thornsin, or really any of my most favorite H-games, if they weren't H-games. Don't get me wrong - some of them are actually mechanically sound, original and plain fun. I just feel that, unless it's in direct service to to the "H" part, it's a "wasted" effort. I feel stronger about that with H-games that go heavy on the story and dialogue.

I just don't think a permadeath system is suitable for the purpose, at least in this implementation. A common critique of many action-oriented H-games is that dissonance and conflict between wanting to lose to see the porn, and wanting to progress through the game (to be able to see the rest of the porn, usually). The more painless that choice, the better.

So yeah, a gallery should absolutely be a part of the game - if I'm playing to win, I'm never gonna want to see those animations otherwise, when doing so brings me so much closer to having to do everything over again. One of the things I was trying to highlight with those examples is that all those games enable the player to go through many, many such steps towards failure before there's any real danger of being reset, and that's if we don't factor the ability to save-scum through each of them (though in AAL, only between missions). Apostle Angel Liebe pretty much lifts the map generation, floors etc from Rogue, but yeah I suppose it doesn't really count as one without permadeath. The others I mentioned definitely aren't, they're traditional linear H-RPGs.


Thornsin isn't helped by the compartmentalisation of enemy-types to each level, and having those levels be in the same, linear order - I think it'd be better if you had more freedom of choice of which "biome" to start in, and which to go to next - and reasons for and against choosing each of them. Eg. a mission-based framework.

It also outright prevents the player from easily losing to enemies they want, when they want, with many of the abilities and powerup effects being completely outside their control. At a certain point you just get so powerful the difficulty becomes trivial, but that conflict still exists until you clear the game. Just means that if you want to be efficient about seeing all the animations, you're probably best off getting to the last level and working your way back - which is incredibly time-consuming, with Thornsin's level & encounter design and progression.
 

Widobob

Newbie
May 28, 2024
99
46
I can't wait for the next update. It introduces lactation, right? I'm waiting to download the new version before playing the game again.
 
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Mar 1, 2019
67
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really solid game for once. decent sound etc good artwork. animation is not amazing but its good enough. sadly its censored and lacks a gallery. it reminds me of alien quest.
 

Pentagone Cat

New Member
Feb 4, 2023
12
3
Esoteric Software's Spine 2D, as they actually call it. Yeah, it's basically 2D/Sprite based but with skeleton rigging. TS's dev use latest iteration which also supports physics module which applies to hair/tits/clothes/etc.

View attachment 4506890

^ PS: didn't know they actually set her clothes as a separate entity, huh... *loli tag *cough*
Are you using paid version? or the crack one. I mean Spine 2D program.
 
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Krongorka

Active Member
Sep 22, 2017
865
2,794
The trial version of spine is 4.2. Do you think thatll work with thornsin or not? it doesnt seem like it would
It's easy to test. I'll attach unpacked source project files for several TS's animations/objects to this post. Try to open projects files with that demo version.
I believe current trial version actually allows you to do things to some extent, but I'm not sure what limitations they set up for it.
As for how to find out which version you'll need to open projects even before you try to load them in in Spine: open .json file and look at numbers in the first line:

4238.png

And now you know which version developer used to export the file. Keep in mind that TS's Spine usage is not constant and they change versions from time to time.

Oh and TS also use a not-so-trivial texture packing/unpacking method which I explained here before, but in short - unpacked sprite resolution is much higher than it's used in-game, while included .atlas file use different texture dimensions. I didn't figure it out, so in the attached example textures are upscaled to a required resolution, but you can't repack them properly for game specs as is.
 

Princeslayer

Member
Jun 10, 2020
378
177
If that suspended mid-air scene had some breast groping and a better angle to see her belly and all the sexual momentum, i'd like it even more. Sad that they didn't include anything more than a image of the "Pseudo-futa" action, i hope that they show more in the next one.
 
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