- Aug 22, 2018
- 25,981
- 89,645
To all my fellow devs who are brave enough -what grinds your gears?
- Thread starter HopesGaming
- Start date
- Feb 12, 2018
- 358
- 1,216
You appropriately mentioned two keywords regarding NTR - betrayal and jealousy. While you presented the "textbook" definition of NTR based on betrayal, which I reckon is quite reasonable, I get it why F95 opted for a definition based on jealousy (albeit a rather vague one). Because from a players perspective, it doesn't seem to matter whether it is a betrayal that leads to the jealousy. But I'm afraid that "jealousy" is a subjective thing and thus, as far as I see F95's definition of NTR only condones such controversy surrounding the topic.
I can speak for myself as a player what hurts me most - when I am forced to watch/experience one of the characters I am romantically involved in, having sex with another person. As you've mentioned, there are those who get off to this situation because of either the masochistic nature of it/ humiliation factor - I feel neither way. So, I find it unfair that I should be forced into such a situation. And as far as I see, this situation is very easy to avoid in a game - you don't like seeing them going at it, just don't watch/don't listen, go away, get it out of your mind - just a matter of adding an option - just like real life.
On the other hand, F95's definition based on jealousy seems to attract all sorts of trouble. How does the dev know what would instigate jealousy of the player? One could argue that they feel jealous even when a character that isn't already romantically involved with the MC, has sex with their partner. Does the gender of the partner matter? Most players seem to be relaxed about girl on girl action but are infuriated when it is a guy. In a third person game where each character has his/her own storyline - would it be reasonable if a player identifies himself/herself with one of the characters and starts feeling jealous of another one? And how should one specify a valid reason for jealousy - it could be a kiss or it could even be just a hint/notion of cheating. I guess it would make the lives of those devs trying to avoid an NTR tag, really painful. While from the point of view of the players trying to avoid it would be really confusing if a game does have one - is it just a small hint of jealousy that resulted in the NTR tag or is it a full-on sex scene with some other person? I really think this issue should be given more thought - seeing as how confusing it has become.
I mentioned briefly the answer to this quandry in at least one of my descriptions, but again, it's unlikely people or F95 will accept this and that is, you, as the player, aren't something I can tag. I can tag the protagonist though. If the protagonist is portrayed as jealous over the betrayal, that's NTR. If the protagonist is completely ok with it, as you mentioned most players are when the one your girl is with is also a girl, then it's not NTR. So, if I write a scene where you see your sister having sex with a guy, even if you think of your sister as your girlfriend, if there is no jealousy exhibited by the MC, then the tag shouldn't be there.
Swinging, for instance, doesn't require an NTR tag. My game, Seraphim Academy, is very much about Polyamory, and I refuse to ever add an NTR tag, even if a guy is having sex with a character some player thinks should be exclusive to Eve, because Eve will never think that. I know this doesn't satisfy everyone, but, it isn't my faultt that the tags aren't broad enough to convey all the possible things to the players. All I can hope is that by being honest with them through the game, they can learn what to avoid.
- Aug 14, 2016
- 498
- 807
I'm not a dev (not as if it matters), but what grinds my gears is wanting to see devs venting to each other, only to have your everyday group of karma whores players/forum users chiming into the thread and changing the whole focus of the discussion.
I know it's a public thread and all, but yeah, some people just can't help themselves.
I know it's a public thread and all, but yeah, some people just can't help themselves.
- Feb 12, 2018
- 358
- 1,216
I think that sounds reasonable, I myself am okay with that definition, but then I feel like there should be something else to point out that there are characters in the game who are in open relationships - something like a "polyamory" tag - because, I guess not everyone is into polyamory. Now, that I think about it, it seems hypocritical of the male players when they can deal with the male protagonist being with multiple girls and also with their female love interests being in a relationship with a girl but it immediately turns into NTR when another guy is involved - polyamory should go both ways.
And as you've already mentioned it - not everyone will agree with it, because what matters to them is whether they themselves are offended by the content, not the protagonist. And F95 policy seems to indicate that they have a right to feel so, "content designed to cause jealousy" - that seems to indicate the jealousy of the player, not the protagonist. F95 really needs to be clear on this subject - because it feels like a sensitive matter.
- Feb 12, 2018
- 358
- 1,216
Look back a little. It seems the OP doesn't mind. So, why do you? And it's not like the players are going far off topic, just following up on a few subjects.
And you wanna know what grinds my gears? It's posts like yours which are not constructive in any way and are only meant to be offensive.
- Aug 14, 2016
- 498
- 807
I apologize, I didn't mean to offend anyone.
Please keep up with your extremely constructive posts, the very reason I came this thread for. I'll even give you a like for your troubles.
Being real, it doesn't look good on any dev to go around trying to censor people, so even if it bothers them, chances are they're not gonna complain. That's what I meant with people not being able to help themselves, being annoying is not against the rules, but it's still... well, annoying.
It's one of those situations where you have a chance to see the creature called dev behaving in the wilderness and random people just starts clogging shit up, scaring the devs off, putting them in a defensive position, or just dissuading things, There are plenty of ways of contacting them if that's what you or anyone wants, but you just gotta chime in with... what do you called them? "Constructive" posts. That's why I took a shot at them likes.
In the end, this whole thing is pretty pointless and I usually don't even bother, but you guys cock blocked me hard.
- Feb 12, 2018
- 358
- 1,216
- Mar 8, 2018
- 2,765
- 3,800
I think it's great, turns out they're just like the rest of us.
Most devs were players and members of this site before being a dev. Hell, this site was what made them want to do dev stuff.I think it's great, turns out they're just like the rest of us.
Playing games and they'll be like- this seems fun. Then they start doing some renders for fun.
And then start making a game. Then the 0.01 gets released. And boom- you're are now seen as a professional developer with a huge studio and with the top of the top hardware and is doing this full time. (all wrong btw)
You are instantly compared to the top 1%.
And this new dev that started this is like- "eheh, hi...(fuck...)"
That seems like a pretty accurate summary of the process.
- Mar 8, 2018
- 2,765
- 3,800
Hey, I was defending you in a roundabout sort of way. I can see it wasn't easy to spot.
I don't see why devs should be denied a bit of venting and whatnot, just like the rest of us.
Heh, I know what you meant with it. Was not me trying to attack or defend or anything like that.Hey, I was defending you in a roundabout sort of way. I can see it wasn't easy to spot.
I don't see why devs should be denied a bit of venting and whatnot, just like the rest of us.
Was more me adding to that comment since it fit with the comment that devs are just like the rest and in fact just members and players of the marked.
- Mar 8, 2018
- 2,765
- 3,800
I did not feel attacked fwiw.
I enjoy reading this thread, my only worry now is I've written so many posts here you're going to demand I make a game.
That's a good compact description of why even there's lots of things that grind my gears, I just ignore most of it. You can't blame the internet for being the internet, like people compalining of free things or not taking in consideration the numbers of months you may be have sleeping one of every two days to make a release, or just giving zero shit about. Games are free y'all!
Just keep smiling and release that sweet sweet game.
Ps: Like feeling that tags on a forum should modify the quality of a game...
Key point! And the dev's best defense is not to take any of it too seriously, IMO.
- May 19, 2017
- 4,065
- 6,298
Being that the words "lesbian" and "gay" have numerous conflicting definitions, perhaps the use of abstract terms should be avoided, in favor of the more scene descriptive tags: FM FF MM FFM FMM FFFF MMMM FFFM FMMM fM Fm
These tags would clearly identify the type of content, that some users may find objectionable.
These tags would clearly identify the type of content, that some users may find objectionable.
Very true.
And the biggest fall pit a dev can do is react overly negative to negative comments.
I do not tend to ignore tho. (unless they being negative just for the sake of being negative and wants attention, those I ignore)
But I try to be as civil and calm to any negative people that may appear. Tell them that my thought process, why I do the choices I do/did and then tell them that is the path I've chosen to take.
And my experience with doing that- they listen and understand. They move on to the next game and it's a win-win situation.
There are of course a couple who stays with the game for some odd reasons and keep liking negativity comments and reviews and so on which for me is odd. Like the game not being to their liking was a personal attack on them from the devs side.
Lately, however, I may (or may not have) replied back in a bit more *fun* way towards negative people.
100% worth it, hehe.
And the biggest fall pit a dev can do is react overly negative to negative comments.
I do not tend to ignore tho. (unless they being negative just for the sake of being negative and wants attention, those I ignore)
But I try to be as civil and calm to any negative people that may appear. Tell them that my thought process, why I do the choices I do/did and then tell them that is the path I've chosen to take.
And my experience with doing that- they listen and understand. They move on to the next game and it's a win-win situation.
There are of course a couple who stays with the game for some odd reasons and keep liking negativity comments and reviews and so on which for me is odd. Like the game not being to their liking was a personal attack on them from the devs side.
Lately, however, I may (or may not have) replied back in a bit more *fun* way towards negative people.
100% worth it, hehe.
- Jun 10, 2018
- 6,327
- 22,798
That's my approach as well. People are entitled to their opinions and I'm happy to engage with them, even if they hate what I'm doing in the game. Of course, there are a few who's negative opinions are so over the top that there's nothing you can do except chuckle and move on.