How comes that every single thread someone complains about something ends up with several other people complaining about something completely different?
I mean, the wheather is shitty and stuff...
Seeing as non devs are joining in the rants (even though I already posted ... forget that one please, thankyou) here's mine.
The lesbian tag when the game has a male protag. That's not lesbian, at best it's bi at worst it's a threesome. 2 girls licking pussy while a guy rails them both isn't lesbian, it isn't even close to lesbian, the inclusion of penis kills any form of lesbianism that could have happened. A girl getting it on with another girl then fucking a bloke also isn't lesbian. Any penis being introduced instantly stops it from being lesbian.
As an expert on all things lesbian having been one for many years I can't reiterate enough time that it's only lesbian if it's only women. Anything else is bi. I get annoyed every time I see "male protag" and "lesbian" in the tags because it's instantly a fucking lie. Even on the off chance the game does have a lesbian character either the players will whine enough that it gets changed or the dev has her "cured by cock".
you are actually cutting into a problem i also encountered with lots of other tags. the problem is, that we have pretty vague tags. we actually need primary tags (affecting the protag) and secondary tags (things that will happen without involving the protag). already had games with the tag pregnancy and at the end it was just a pregnant girl saying hello to the protag and then simply dissapeared form the game.
ps: if OP wants this thread to be dev only, don't refrain to delete my post or so. i wouldn't mind.
Of course not.
Anyone is allowed to share their thoughts here.
Granted I am not a mod so does not really matter what I say is allowed or not.
But If I did have a say it would still be that everyone can freely write what they feel like. (without breaking any forum rules, of course.)
There should be, if the guys are also fucking each other... Haha...
But I agree with you - when two girls are fucking each other and a guy at the same time, it's more bi-sexual than lesbian... There should be a specific tag for a "no guy in the picture" scenarios for those who are looking for that type of content, which is already quite rare.
you are actually cutting into a problem i also encountered with lots of other tags. the problem is, that we have pretty vague tags. we actually need primary tags (affecting the protag) and secondary tags (things that will happen without involving the protag). already had games with the tag pregnancy and at the end it was just a pregnant girl saying hello to the protag and then simply dissapeared form the game.
Agreed. There needs to be distinction. The example you described shouldn't even be tagged in the first place.
Another thing is distinguishing what is optional or not. Maybe different colored sheets would help. I bet there are plenty of people who avoid a game solely on seeing a tag they don't like (I do it with mind control or futa for example), while at the same time the content of that tag could be avoidable.
To stay on topic, this is actually one thing that would grind my gears If I greenlighted my project. Being assigned controversial tags like "ntr", just because in my game it would be possible to sort of lose a girl to another guy or girl depending on player's choices. Someone would argue I guess, that it inspires jealousy even though it's player's own fault.
TL;DR: Developers should have complete freedom regarding the design of their games; we players should be not so concerned about specifics.
I see the post is originally meant for developers, but seeing as I get so many of my favorite developers at the same place, I cannot resist the temptation to post something.
First of all, my heartiest gratitude to all devs, big and small. You guys rock. We players wouldn't be here, and wouldn't have anything to complain about if it were not for your efforts.
From what I get, a big portion of the players playing adult games is just looking for a quick fap. They are less concerned about anything else. But the problem starts when they start to say their minds without giving it any second thought or consideration. Even I, a player, am sometimes surprised by how inconsiderate some players can be with their rude comments and facile/ irrelevant reviews. But I truly believe that you guys are true artists and you deserve complete artistic freedom. You need not to concern yourself with what I as a player want - hell, even I don't actually know what I want. If you'd asked me two years ago, I would've probably told you it was all about the sex, just like the guy next to me.
So if it's not about sex, is it about the story? I remember playing DMD, which first got me into adult VNs. It isn't as much about the story as it is about the setting and eroticism. So is it about the sensual feeling, the desire, the buildup? I've played games where there's no buildup, just raw sex (sex with Selina in Become a Rockstar)- yet it seemed amazing. Is it about choices, does a game really need choices to be immersive? I've played games where the game is almost linear but I ended up wishing it were even more so, so that the dev can concentrate on the main storyline (Haley's Story). Is it about graphics/animation? I've played games that are not much of a looker in terms of graphics but more made up for it with eloquent storytelling (The Fate of Irnia). Does a game need to have a lot of content to win a player's heart? I've played some short games that very quickly won mine rather than prolonging anything unnecessarily.
My point being, we, as players can only give you suggestions, but you as developers should feel completely free to do as you see fit with your own creation. You guys are here to blow our minds, it is up to you how you do that. I don't even feel qualified to tell you how you can do what you do best. I've been in F95Zone for over a year now playing different types of games, yet I have only given positive reviews to games, refraining from giving a negative review, because I'm still not sure whether I understand those games well enough to say anything negative about them.
Not only you, but it also annoys us players as well when we find unjustified remarks about our favorite games. I know most of you try to keep calm and avoid responding to such stupidity, so I'm glad that this thread served as an outlet for your frustrations. And sorry if this post seems a bit tangential to the original topic.
To stay on topic, this is actually one thing that would grind my gears If I greenlighted my project. Being assigned controversial tags like "ntr", just because in my game it would be possible to sort of lose a girl to another guy or girl depending on player's choices. Someone would argue I guess, that it inspires jealousy even though it's player's own fault.
It would be weird to think that anything that instigates jealousy should be considered NTR. I think the concept of NTR is so vague among players that someone should really come up with a specific definition and write it down somewhere as a site policy. From what I understand, "NTR occurs when a playable character (should be first person) directly observes one of his/her romantic interests engage in explicit sexual activity with a non-playable character and does not directly participate in it."
This definition would discard your situation as not NTR, because the player does not directly observe his love interest engaging in sexual activity with her current partner. But even this definition is not perfect, seeing as it would make many girl-on-girl scenes NTR but most male players seem to be okay with that. On the other hand, it would make MMF scenes where one/both males are playable non-NTR, yet some might argue that it's NTR nonetheless.
It would be weird to think that anything that instigates jealousy should be considered NTR. I think the concept of NTR is so vague among players that someone should really come up with a specific definition and write it down somewhere as a site policy. From what I understand, "NTR occurs when a playable character (should be first person) directly observes one of his/her romantic interests engage in explicit sexual activity with a non-playable character and does not directly participate in it."
This definition would discard your situation as not NTR, because the player does not directly observe his love interest engaging in sexual activity with her current partner. But even this definition is not perfect, seeing as it would make many girl-on-girl scenes NTR but most male players seem to be okay with that. On the other hand, it would make MMF scenes where one/both males are playable non-NTR, yet some might argue that it's NTR nonetheless.
Well I'm not sure I qualify as a developer since so far all I've done is mods, but my biggest annoyance is actually with something I do pretty often myself. I'll get a scene set up and start rendering and when I come back and check it 2 hours later I realize my character's foot is clipping through the floor, hand through a wall/whatever and have to start all over again... The part of the scene that's important is fine but I forget to check the rest of it before letting it run.
Well I'm not sure I qualify as a developer since so far all I've done is mods, but my biggest annoyance is actually with something I do pretty often myself. I'll get a scene set up and start rendering and when I come back and check it 2 hours later I realize my character's foot is clipping through the floor, hand through a wall/whatever and have to start all over again... The part of the scene that's important is fine but I forget to check the rest of it before letting it run.
I think it makes the most sense to tag based on scene anyway since in a lot of games, characters (especially female ones) can be "persuaded" to ignore their preference. Chances are in most adult games, if the MC is a male and he sees a lesbian, at some point in the game she'll decide she wants some dick... By the same token, most straight women in adult games seem to have no trouble being persuaded to try some girl on girl action either... I think for guys there's a double standard on that, most people expect that if it doesn't have a gay tag then you'll never see a MM scene, period.
On a scene by scene basis though, there's no ambiguity. If it's a FF scene, it's a lesbo scene, doesn't matter if she's truely a lesbo or if she's bi. Just my 2 cents.
I agree. That's what I'm saying. If a bisexual woman if having sex with just another woman, then it's a lesbian scene, not necessarily a scene with lesbians.
Same way when you're watching a porn video - it doesn't matter if the actresses are actually heterosexual, if the movie is about 2 girls fucking then it's a lesbian movie. You can have homosexual scenes and heterosexual scenes with the same character, it doesn't make both scenes bi because at some point she may fuck someone else, specially in games that you can choose who fucks who.
A rape scene with 2 guys is a gay scene, it doesn't matter if one of the characters is straight, you're still watching 2 guys fucking. We categorize scenes for the people watching, not for the characters playing the scene.
Tagging you @Avaron1974 as well, because there's definitely a misunderstanding in how tags are meant to be used on the user end.
Now, I know people hate the term, but tags are trigger warnings. Now, of course, I'm not saying that any of the content tagged or discussed currently necessarily should trigger a person, though there are things, like rape, which might, but that the function of a tag is to give a user some semblance of what they're getting into. I recently got into this on my thread with people being angry about the gay tag being attached to the explicit homosexual rape scene that starts the game. As a queer person, I get it. You don't want homosexuality being represented as abhorrent. You don't want someone to look at this and say Alex is gay simply because he was raped, or to say that the rapist is representative of gay people. But that's not what the tag is there for.
The tag is there to say, the act carried out in a particular scene is of a male on male sexual variety. If you imagine a world where straight wasn't just considered the default, and where we needed to add it as a tag to things, would you hold it against a developer who had a straight rape scene in an otherwise gay game using the straight tag? When a tag, like gay, or lesbian, is used, it is used to denote an act, not an orientation. I know that this is confusing. However, especially here where the mod team intentionally keeps the tags to a minimum, since they don't have time to really curate a larger list, we have to see tags not for what we think they should be used for, but for what, in reality, their intended purpose is.
It would be weird to think that anything that instigates jealousy should be considered NTR. I think the concept of NTR is so vague among players that someone should really come up with a specific definition and write it down somewhere as a site policy. From what I understand, "NTR occurs when a playable character (should be first person) directly observes one of his/her romantic interests engage in explicit sexual activity with a non-playable character and does not directly participate in it."
This definition would discard your situation as not NTR, because the player does not directly observe his love interest engaging in sexual activity with her current partner. But even this definition is not perfect, seeing as it would make many girl-on-girl scenes NTR but most male players seem to be okay with that. On the other hand, it would make MMF scenes where one/both males are playable non-NTR, yet some might argue that it's NTR nonetheless.
The first definition is definitely too specific and would be defined more accurately as Cuckoldry, and F95's definition is intentionally vague.
First off, we have to decide what NTR is. NTR can be used as the abbreviation for Netorare, Netorase, Netori, or any other slight variation on the concept. Netorase(NTRS) is the one that is accurate to the fetish of cuckoldry as western audiences understand it. It is a guy who knowingly gets the object of their affection fucked and watches, usually in a masochistic context. Netori is both a descriptor of a story in which you play as the sadistic third party as well as the name of said sadistic 3rd party. Netorare is the more forced definition that people usually code into games, and it involves jealousy and betrayal.
In NTR we have a minimum of 3 people. We will refer to them as A, B, and C going forward. A is the person we will call the victim, now B may also be a victim, depending on the story, but A is ultimately the person who both B and C cause emotional harm to unless it's NTRS, but even then, the person is victimizing themselves. B is a person in some form of relationship with A. This relationship can be sexual, or platonic. What has to exist between them is a bond of trust that can be broken. C, is the above mentioned Netori. They are the person getting off on destroying this relationship, usually.
Most NTR, in manga or other purely linear story telling modes, follows either B or C. As someone who really enjoys female protagonist corruption stories, those which follow B as she willingly betrays A are some of my favorite experiences. As a sadist, I also get a kick out of C, corrupting B and cuckolding A are supreme pleasures. However, NTR in games, especially western ones, tend to be more likely applied to situations wherein you are A, and that's where a lot of confusion seems to enter. So, lets give examples.
This list is not exhaustive, but I think I covered the bases enough to where you should be able to see a scenario in which NTR is there or isn't. Ultimately, the feelings of jealousy are a part of it, but for it to truly be NTR, it must either be willing cuckoldry, NTRS, or B has to betray their relationship with A wholly, breaking off any chance of A and B ever getting over this betrayal, due to the extreme jealousy A's betrayal has caused. And this is not in relation to your feelings as the viewer, but the character's feelings in the media itself. If B fucks C and no longer loves A, but A doesn't really give a shit, it's not NTR.
If the scene only involves them interacting with the male character, yes. But if they perform any homosexual act, kissing, cunnilingus, or etc, with one another, then the Lesbian tag exists because it's telling you that act is there.
Your enemy here isn't the developer, it's F95 and their commitment to broad tagging rather than specific tagging.
