To all my fellow devs who are brave enough -what grinds your gears?

[danteworks]

It shouldn't bother you that more people want to play your game. Android OS is 82% of the mobile computing market. (18% shared by all others combined) It would be an interesting survey to see how many players curl up in bed with an android tablet to play adult games.

And don't feel bad, if you can't port the game to android, there are modders that can do it, like the back of their hand.
If a pissy little 7% of the marketshare demands an apple port... that's another story.

In 2012 I bought a big multitouch monitor, installed Android SDK and turned it into a giant tablet coffee table. My guests fight over it, and I have both a theater and a game room. Games where you touch interact with the character. Like touch the breast and it responds are crazy popular. Everything is going to phones and tablets now days.

I’m not bothered by people wanting to play on android, that’s not what I said. I’m bothered when they ask why it isn’t available despite it being very clearly written out.

 

[Akamari]

You see, this is not what I was saying. And I kinda blame the early, what to call them... pioneers(?) in Western games for this. So many of them do something I consider a huge mistake. The only purpose of the game is sex, and so the only real choices they can give you are sex.

I agree. Personally, I find no appeal in games which purpose is just sex. Story first, characters second, sex third. It's kind of like a pyramid with the sex part being the base. Ideally, I want my choices to go all the way to the top, but at the very least I expect they cover the foundation. Ultimately, I'm here to play a game first and read a story second, so I need my moments of making decisions to satisfy the primary goal.

Seraphim Academy is a mystery thriller set in a porn game, with a protagonist who is explicitly polyamorous and that polyamory is essential to telling the full thriller story. If you were to take the poly out of Seraphim Academy, you'd be missing most of the game, or, as Hopes said, forced to write different scripts for every possible variation of "I like this character but not that one."

See, this is important! If you tell me this before I download the game I won't have the basic expectations of choice regarding whom I can or can't romance and therefore I won't get disappointed when it's all forced on me. The problem is where can I find this information before I start playing? It's just not there. So I start your game, get to the point where it's all forced on me, and I quit because my expectation does not meet the reality.

If you were to take the poly out of Seraphim Academy, you'd be missing most of the game

Is this a concern that I would have less content per update if I made such choice or that the story wouldn't make sense? If I say, I don't want anything to do with this character, I can't be upset for having smaller updates. It's my choice.

Or maybe I want to be faithful to this character, and then play a second playthrough where I'm faithful to another character, maybe I just don't want my MC to fuck around every skirt. Maybe, in terms of my preferences, I want quality and not quantity. I totally understand devs wanting their players to experience all of their work, after all there is hard effort in it, but sometimes less is more. Now, I'm talking in general. If this polyamory of yours is essential to the whole plot, then it has to be there.

Seraphim's choices will be more in line with something like Life is Strange, Telltale's many choice based series, and a little bit of those old school adventure games like kings quest (which also exists in Life is Strange if I'm honest). It isn't that you have no choices, it isn't a kinetic novel. It's just that the visual novel story you're experiencing isn't about making a choice of which girls to have sex with, it's about trying to solve the mystery and keep everyone safe.

This is another great piece of information, that would made me interested in your game, if I knew it first. Life is Strange is a fav of mine. A level of quality VN's should aspire to aim at in terms of storytelling.

Just with this post of yours you've basically convinced me to give Seraphim another chance with different expectations. This is why I'm saying that it's essential to communicate what the game is about to players. So that they know what to expect.

 

[polywog]

I’m not bothered by people wanting to play on android, that’s not what I said. I’m bothered when they ask why it isn’t available despite it being very clearly written out.

a)behind a spoiler it says: android not supported after 3.0
b)I'm only being technical, because you're being technical
c)Obfuscated behind a spoiler is not "clearly"
d)no reason is given for the lack of android support after 3.0 merely the stated fact that it isn't.
mom's can't even get away with that with their own children
"Because I said so, now stop asking"
"but why mommy?" *smack* "waaaaaa"
P.S. I like the game
and now i'm curious why no android?

 

[DarthSeduction]

Is this a concern that I would have less content per update if I made such choice or that the story wouldn't make sense? If I say, I don't want anything to do with this character, I can't be upset for having smaller updates. It's my choice.

Or maybe I want to be faithful to this character, and then play a second playthrough where I'm faithful to another character, maybe I just don't want my MC to fuck around every skirt. Maybe, in terms of my preferences, I want quality and not quantity. I totally understand devs wanting their players to experience all of their work, after all there is hard effort in it, but sometimes less is more. Now, I'm talking in general. If this polyamory of yours is essential to the whole plot, then it has to be there.

Actually answering this question with any detail would be such a major spoiler that you might as well not play my game. Sad thing about thrillers that. All I can say is that the plot revolves around the poly aspects.

When you come to the "Maybe, in terms of my preference..." we hit what I have said a few times already, not all games are made for you and your preference, and to broaden that statement, it's good that they aren't. Many people try to make the argument, "But can't you make this or that optional?" without realizing that doing so dilutes the story, changes it, molds it away from it's intent. Fulfilling every option for every person creates cookie cutter content with no purpose.

This is another great piece of information, that would made me interested in your game, if I knew it first. Life is Strange is a fav of mine. A level of quality VN's should aspire to aim at in terms of storytelling.

Just with this post of yours you've basically convinced me to give Seraphim another chance with different expectations. This is why I'm saying that it's essential to communicate what the game is about to players. So that they know what to expect.

See, here we're having a difference of opinion in how it is that I'm supposed to make that clear. I am not pro-spoonfeed people information. In fact, playing my games I hope you're coming to your own conclusions. You'll notice that where I have narration in both my titles, it's usually thought based, rather than describing actions, motivations, etc. I let the art convey people's intent and feelings.

However, the description of the game immediately tells you, things are getting weird, people Eve has been close to are disappearing. This shows that you're playing a mystery thriller. Long before we've gotten to any real relationship content, you're also given clues into Eve's personal philosophies. In the first scene of the game she makes clear her dislike of the L word. During the second, or was it third? Release, she details her observations of her parent's failures and successes in relationships, how she came to her polyamorous conclusions.

No, I, as a Dev, am never going to spoon-feed you this level of information as advertisement for the game. It will be revealed through dialogue and story progression. I did petition, months before the game's release, for them to add a polyamory tag, since currently the only tags for more than 1 person being involved in a relationship are NTR and Cuckoldry, and that's not what's going on, however the request was denied (there might be a swinger tag, but again, not the same thing, more positive, but still not the same).

 

[Akamari]

When you come to the "Maybe, in terms of my preference..." we hit what I have said a few times already, not all games are made for you and your preference, and to broaden that statement, it's good that they aren't. Many people try to make the argument, "But can't you make this or that optional?" without realizing that doing so dilutes the story, changes it, molds it away from it's intent. Fulfilling every option for every person creates cookie cutter content with no purpose.

That's true and I never disputed that. I'm not here to tell the devs what they should do, so that it suits me. I'm just voicing my opinion so that devs can consider it and in 99% of cases disregard it. But if there is 1% percent that would take some of what I say to heart, and maybe think to themselves: "Yeah, I can make this optional, it doesn't have to be forced", then it's worth it. The entire reason I started this debate is because I don't think a question of optionality of the sexual content is something that should fall into "what grinds your gears" category.

See, here we're having a difference of opinion in how it is that I'm supposed to make that clear. I am not pro-spoonfeed people information. In fact, playing my games I hope you're coming to your own conclusions. You'll notice that where I have narration in both my titles, it's usually thought based, rather than describing actions, motivations, etc. I let the art convey people's intent and feelings.

However, the description of the game immediately tells you, things are getting weird, people Eve has been close to are disappearing. This shows that you're playing a mystery thriller. Long before we've gotten to any real relationship content, you're also given clues into Eve's personal philosophies. In the first scene of the game she makes clear her dislike of the L word. During the second, or was it third? Release, she details her observations of her parent's failures and successes in relationships, how she came to her polyamorous conclusions.

No, I, as a Dev, am never going to spoon-feed you this level of information as advertisement for the game. It will be revealed through dialogue and story progression. I did petition, months before the game's release, for them to add a polyamory tag, since currently the only tags for more than 1 person being involved in a relationship are NTR and Cuckoldry, and that's not what's going on, however the request was denied.

I'm not asking for story spoilers. I'm asking for what kind of design it is. All I know from the description is that the protagonist is female and that something weird is going on at the school. That's it. That's just too vague.

What can I expect? Is this a story-focused game or a mindless fuckfest? Is it drama, comedy, mix of both, or neither? Is it linear or is it sandbox? Are there additional game mechanics? What are the game's main features? Are there choices and consequences? Is sexual content optional? Is it focused on specific kinks?

Many use the tags to decide but I find them flawed and often not representative of the reality, so what I do is actually hop in to Patreon page and read the description. That works for me pretty well as a filter. If a dev can't put together a good description I can hardly expect the writing to be better, can I?

That is not your case, of course, but there is very little that would make me think that this might be a game I could enjoy. I'm then shooting blind, so I expect just the bare minimum for an adult game. And here we are at the beginning.

 

[Avaron1974]

Yeah, I especially agree with the part of “can we avoid this character?”. I have 5 main girls in the game, so of course each are gonna get sex scenes. But some people want to skip over one character or maybe all except one. How would we even be able to make a story like that.

I know i'm not a dev but reading other people ranting amuses me however I do have a slight nitpick about this comment....

Games with multiple girls where you can avoid content with some girls in favour of others?

That's exactly what dating sims are, that's how they write stories like that, there are many of them. Not even just dating sims, games like Depraved Awakening, Twists of my Heart, Where the Heart is, they all have options of skipping certain girls or picking a fave. It's something people like to do.

You just ranted about something that's pretty common place.

Pretend I wasn't here......

 

[FFCreations]

I know i'm not a dev but reading other people ranting amuses me however I do have a slight nitpick about this comment....

Games with multiple girls where you can avoid content with some girls in favour of others?

That's exactly what dating sims are, that's how they write stories like that, there are many of them. Not even just dating sims, games like Depraved Awakening, Twists of my Heart, Where the Heart is, they all have options of skipping certain girls or picking a fave. It's something people like to do.

You just ranted about something that's pretty common place.

Pretend I wasn't here......

Yes, but it’s not a dating sim. It’s a Visual Novel.

What I meant was that there requires a lot of extra effort to make that work. Branching requires a ton of time. That effort could be spent on actually making the story work.

The VN can’t make sense if we allow people to randomly choose what they want. We would need so many branches that we simply don’t have the manpower to achieve.

Isn’t it better if we focus on making our intended story actually work?

 

[Akamari]

Yes, but it’s not a dating sim. It’s a Visual Novel.

That's like saying: It's not a green apple. It's an apple.

 

[FFCreations]

That's like saying: It's not a green apple. It's an apple.

Maybe I should’ve been more clearer. It was kinda vague.

Basically the game isn’t structured like a dating sim, it’s structured like a linear visual novel. Which it has been from the start.

 

[DarthSeduction]

I'm not asking for story spoilers. I'm asking for what kind of design it is. All I know from the description is that the protagonist is female and that something weird is going on at the school. That's it. That's just too vague.

What can I expect? Is this a story-focused game or a mindless fuckfest? Is it drama, comedy, mix of both, or neither? Is it linear or is it sandbox? Are there additional game mechanics? What are the game's main features? Are there choices and consequences? Is sexual content optional? Is it focused on specific kinks?

Again, I'm not gonna spoon-feed. Looking at the questions you ask here, I answer the story focus question with the description by giving you a story primer. I answer the drama question pretty well with it as well, though I'm the type of person who works humor into all my writing, so that's not explicit, but also shouldn't be a turn off. The fact that it's Prefixed with VN and Ren'Py answers the sandbox question, if it's a sandbox it's not a VN. I introduce the only game mechanic that matters to the game so far in the first release. I don't think I should have to specify that sexual content is optional or not at all, to be perfectly honest, and if it were focused on specific kinks I'd outline that in the description.

You want me to spell everything out for you it seems. That's just not how it works. Art is something to be engaged with. I put tags so that people aren't confused when they run into content, but I'm not gonna hold your hand and give you a disclaimer for every little thing.

That's true and I never disputed that. I'm not here to tell the devs what they should do, so that it suits me. I'm just voicing my opinion so that devs can consider it and in 99% of cases disregard it. But if there is 1% percent that would take some of what I say to heart, and maybe think to themselves: "Yeah, I can make this optional, it doesn't have to be forced", then it's worth it. The entire reason I started this debate is because I don't think a question of optionality of the sexual content is something that should fall into "what grinds your gears" category.

See, and the entire reason I became a developer is because I felt the exact opposite. Developers were all caving to every little request, their games had no purpose, no specific flow. I kinda find this implication that we didn't consider if content could be optional insulting. If you know anything about the development of both of my games (which the threads are full of information on) you'll see there's plenty of optional content. In Seraphim, there are two relationships that you won't explicitly have any real force behind, both are with teachers, one is with a male. There are a lot of people who want to play the game completely lesbian. He's the only male after the opening scene which is necessary for telling the story I'm telling, and he's optional. TTWDFL is options on steroids. It's a shorter story though, so I can afford to branch a lot more giving multiple different endings and experiences to people. You can have a monogamous incest romance, a polyamorous bisexual romance, a crushing NTR experience all based on what choices you make with the dual protagonists. When content can be optional, we make it so. And implying that we didn't even consider it, quite frankly, makes me think you assume we're idiots.

 

[DarthSeduction]

For people who don't really get the whole "Branching takes time" part of this, my last release of Seraphim Academy was in November. This isn't because it's on hold or abandoned. It's because I decided to do a game of Truth or Dare involving 5 different characters. Each round of Truth or Dare has a minimum of 2 variations. If a character involved in a Truth or Dare is in any way branched, that can add as many as 2 more variations. If I give you a choice as to who to pick in the game, that's another 2 variations. Very quickly, a simple game of Truth or Dare which will probably only take you a few minutes to play all the way through is as large as if not larger than all my other releases. And since I'm so committed to making something quality, not cookie cutter, the dares are more than what they are in other games, so there's a lot of moving pieces, art to do, etc. 1 branch can easily add another 2 to 3 weeks to development of any project.

 

[Akamari]

Again, I'm not gonna spoon-feed. Looking at the questions you ask here, I answer the story focus question with the description by giving you a story primer. I answer the drama question pretty well with it as well, though I'm the type of person who works humor into all my writing, so that's not explicit, but also shouldn't be a turn off.

The fact that it's Prefixed with VN and Ren'Py answers the sandbox question, if it's a sandbox it's not a VN. I introduce the only game mechanic that matters to the game so far in the first release. I don't think I should have to specify that sexual content is optional or not at all, to be perfectly honest, and if it were focused on specific kinks I'd outline that in the description.

You want me to spell everything out for you it seems. That's just not how it works. Art is something to be engaged with. I put tags so that people aren't confused when they run into content, but I'm not gonna hold your hand and give you a disclaimer for every little thing.

Those were just examples. Apparently I didn't get my point across, but that's ok. I don't want you to spell everything, what I'm saying is that you don't spell almost anything. That polyamory is a very specific kink (or whatever would you call it) if you don't me saying so and I already talked about why I don't like forced sexual content.

See, and the entire reason I became a developer is because I felt the exact opposite. Developers were all caving to every little request, their games had no purpose, no specific flow. I kinda find this implication that we didn't consider if content could be optional insulting. If you know anything about the development of both of my games (which the threads are full of information on) you'll see there's plenty of optional content. In Seraphim, there are two relationships that you won't explicitly have any real force behind, both are with teachers, one is with a male. There are a lot of people who want to play the game completely lesbian. He's the only male after the opening scene which is necessary for telling the story I'm telling, and he's optional. TTWDFL is options on steroids. It's a shorter story though, so I can afford to branch a lot more giving multiple different endings and experiences to people. You can have a monogamous incest romance, a polyamorous bisexual romance, a crushing NTR experience all based on what choices you make with the dual protagonists. When content can be optional, we make it so. And implying that we didn't even consider it, quite frankly, makes me think you assume we're idiots.

You completely misunderstood me here. What I meant is that I consider the chance of any developer actually accepting whatever I ramble about to be tiny. It's subjective and everybody has their own head and their own ideas. So I'm not realistically expecting people will change their mind based on what I write. It was a general response and wasn't about your game at all. No offence was intended.

 

[DarthSeduction]

Those were just examples. Apparently I didn't get my point across, but that's ok. I don't want you to spell everything, what I'm saying is that you don't spell almost anything. That polyamory is a very specific kink (or whatever would you call it) if you don't me saying so and I already talked about why I don't like forced sexual content.

Amount of explicit sexual content with another character in Seraphim Academy as of current release - 1 scene - Forced, but with narrative purpose, and before you even have a chance to get to know people, so kinda bs to complain about imho

Yet, the game does talk about the poly stuff, and the description, while not explicitly stating, poly, does say "people I've been intimate with" telling you that the story is about a girl who has more than one intimate relationship. I can lead to to water, but I can't force you to drink it.

You completely misunderstood me here. What I meant is that I consider the chance of any developer actually accepting whatever I ramble about to be tiny. It's subjective and everybody has their own head and their own ideas. So I'm not realistically expecting people will change their mind based on what I write. It was a general response and wasn't about your game at all. No offence was intended.

I can only speak to my experience, however, I know I'm not unique, and I am definitely not the best writer in this thread (Hopes is here for crying out loud) so while I gave examples from my personal game writing experience, the point was to give you a window into the mind of a developer. But you can't simultaneously say that you acknowledge only a small chance of a dev being able to do what you might ask and then say:

The entire reason I started this debate is because I don't think a question of optionality of the sexual content is something that should fall into "what grinds your gears" category.

If you're asking a dev to change something, add an option, you're asking them to violate the story they've laid out for your preferences, and you think that only a statistical anomaly worth of devs can or will accommodate you, then you have to also realize that the vast majority are gonna be annoyed by your request.

 

[Akamari]

Amount of explicit sexual content with another character in Seraphim Academy as of current release - 1 scene - Forced, but with narrative purpose, and before you even have a chance to get to know people, so kinda bs to complain about imho

Your opinion. I haven't played your game in months, so I'm not gonna argue this. It wasn't enough for me back then, when I didn't know what to expect. That's all I can say.

But you can't simultaneously say that you acknowledge only a small chance of a dev being able to do what you might ask and then say:

If you're asking a dev to change something, add an option, you're asking them to violate the story they've laid out for your preferences, and you think that only a statistical anomaly worth of devs can or will accommodate you, then you have to also realize that the vast majority are gonna be annoyed by your request.

Now you're just warping the context. I'm not asking anyone to do anything here. Neither were those "Can I avoid..." questions that made me post here in the first place. They were valid informatory questions, not requests and not something a dev should be annoyed by. It was not a case of "I don't like this, please change it because I'm asking nicely".

 

[Rando Civ]

wife fucked her husband

That's hilarious. Getting triggered over shit like that tells you a lot about who is posting.

 

[Akamari]

@DarthSeduction Anyway, thanks for the little spirited discussion. I will take some positives from it. Best not to derail the thread any further.

 

[Avaron1974]

People using their own definitions for widely accepted terms.

OMG wife fucked her husband, NTR alert!!!

I was reading through Dreaming of Dana's thread and there is a guy that goes on a full NTR rant when Maria fucks another bloke in front of the MC.

The bloke she fucked was John, her husband.

I did find that hilarious. I find a lot of NTR comments hilarious. That one in your thread was equally as amusing with a girl the MC has no relations with except "college chick I sometimes fuck" and he claims NTR over a threesome. That shit was funny.

 

[danteworks]

a)behind a spoiler it says: android not supported after 3.0
b)I'm only being technical, because you're being technical
c)Obfuscated behind a spoiler is not "clearly"
d)no reason is given for the lack of android support after 3.0 merely the stated fact that it isn't.
mom's can't even get away with that with their own children
"Because I said so, now stop asking"
"but why mommy?" *smack* "waaaaaa"
P.S. I like the game
and now i'm curious why no android?

Its written in clear English and labelled dev note just above the download links. If you wanted an answer it's more logical to read the main post before commenting and waiting for my reply that isn't going to come. It's more egregious for my discord page, where the welcome message tells them android is not supported and I still get asked. The reason why it's not available is also written out: because it's not supported. As to why it's not supported is a technical reason which doesn't need to be delved into.

 

[Antiochus]

Authors should be REQUIRED! YES REQUIRED to produce an abridged "Coles" notes freely acompanying the product, clearly outlining the entire VN/game. Decision points, optimal paths by fetish, detailed walk through, cheats and full commentary explaining in detail the work in question. Included in the appendices there must be a production and release schedule and, and, and... Fergeddaboudit... this is unworkable as aformentioned 'notes' would require the consumer to actually read it, never mind the potential negative impact on production schedule.

 

[preglovr12]

The tags on this site lead to a lot of problems I feel. The way NTR is defined here is weird and certainly leads to some people not touching a game that's marked with it while others just complain that there's no NTR content...

A lot of games are tagged as VNs too I find. Not that that's necessarily right or wrong, but anything like Summertime Saga is no where near being a VN while sometimes they are tagged as such. Just how much control a player has leads to something being a VN or a game I realize can be an point of argument, and I don't have an answer either. Sometimes I feel like playing a "proper" game, and sometimes I feel like just chilling and reading a VN.

And don't get me started on the pregnancy tag

Also, I love me a walkthrough. I like to make the best decisions I can, and while I realize that's fairly easy/obvious in a lot of VNs, a lot also have weird variables that get changed for seemingly no reason, and that can and has aggravated me before.