- Jan 27, 2017
- 2,661
- 3,150
Nope I was downloading the game until I read your comment.
- Thread starter Azrayal
- Start date
- Dec 24, 2019
- 1,021
- 3,515
Did you asked yourself if it wasn't you who had a bias, and that I worded it precisely as is it in the story ?
Before I start, I want one thing to be clear:
I do not put all the blame on MC, nor believe that his family isn't at fault. I just talk about the story as it is effectively wrote.
And it happen that the story is: MC was stuck in an obsessive desire of revenge, that totally blinded him to his surrounding and put his life at risk. While, among every single thing that his family tried to save him, the only one that worked was the most extreme and fucked up one, their conspiracy.
And now, I'll prove it...
Funny you said that, because reading you I had the exact same thought. So, to solve this, here is, to the letter, what is in the game.
I'll provide a transcription (directly took from the source code), but you can perfectly open the file named "chapter3.rpy" and goes to the given lines to read it by yourself.
You can also go on the console and typejump label8068. It's the nearest branching point to the scenes that talk about what happened when MC was in jail ; and therefore what led them to their fucked up conspiracy.
lines 5079, then 5105, then 5191:
Where we learn that MC threatened to commit treason to the nation, and that if he continue, he faced real risk to be "dealt with" (understand killed).You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.
Line 5241, then 5249, then 5298:
Where we learn that MC father blackmailed UK prime minister to help his son, and that he renounced to his career for him.You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.
Line 5321:
Where we learn that MC was clearly seeking for revenge, this whatever the reason that initially sent him in jail.You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.
Line 5340:
Where we learn that every member of the family tried to put back some reason in MC brain, even his father.You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.
And Deb line is here to show us that they tried everything that crossed their mind, even the most stupid ones.
Line 5368:
Where we learn that all what MC family tried during 9 months didn't change a single thing in MC obsessive desire of revenge. And also that Marie was the one who took this seriously and convinced the others.You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.
Marie part being a writer trick. Put the blame on the person that will die, it will help readers (who remember what you wrote...) to deal with the aftermath and agree more easily to a possible redemption.
So, go on, will someone tell me again that MC is fully innocent, that his, clearly shown, obsession, and his, explicitly said, desire of revenge, don't play a role in the extreme decision his family came to ?
Did they fucked up ? Yes, of course they did.
But it's not because they fucked up, nor because he was, with Milly, the one who suffered the most about this, that MC have no responsibilities.
Did they were selfish when doing this ? It depend, do you (plural) think it's selfish to not want to pass the rest of your life mourning your son/brother/husband ?
Because it's what their motivation was when they came up to this fucked up scheme. They wanted to keep him alive, whatever the price. And as Faye, and MC himself, said in the game, when it come to save the life of your child, you can go far, really far. There's nothing else that matter at this time, and you'll think about the consequences, and face them, later.
Did this excuse them for what they did ? I can't answer for you...
MC past 14 months sending threats over threats, going a bit closer to the day of his assassination with every step he was making. While his family past 9 months trying to put back some reason in his mind, and his father goes as far as blackmailing UK prime minister in order to help him.
Up to you to decide if this give them some excuses or not.
All this, it's not me who say it, it's the game. And you (plural) clearly seem to have forgot it, but MC haven't (for cause) and it's why he achieved to forgive them. He needed time to proceed all this, but he know perfectly well now that he own the initial, if not biggest, part of responsibility in all this mess.
Would he have listened just once to their 9 months of "please, stop doing this", the conspiracy wouldn't have happened.
Once again, I don't blame MC, not excuse his family. I just tell what the game show us, they all have their part of responsibility in this mess. All...
Except that he stopped caring about them before the conspiracy started.
It's his wife and daughter disappearance that take him back to reason, and then he started to care again. But if he cared for them before this, he would have listened to what his wife had to say. And once again it's not me who say it, it's the game ; Azrayal even made it clear in the first jail scene.
Milly have only one line, but this line tell everything that needs to be known. She's trying to make him goes against her mother decision, like any child do. And what is his reaction ? None. She's speaking to a wall.
Not an, "one second half-pint, I talk with your mother". Not an, "and she's right, you're too young". Not a, "honey, why do you refuse that". No, he didn't even acknowledge that she's speaking to him.
Instead, his answer is to tell his wife that he'll never quit his obsessive seek of revenge, and that their visit become annoying.
In two dialog lines, everything is said. MC is obsessed, he's want revenge, and both put together turn in blind to his surrounding. There's only thing that he care for, getting the revenge he deserve.
Now, I'll say another thing. But I'll said it in spoiler, because it's just a guess, but a guess that become stronger and stronger the more the game advance. Perhaps am I wrong, perhaps am I am right, only Azrayal know, and he'll never tell it.
Read it only if you don't care to be possibly spoiled the deep part of the story, and would enjoy having a possible perspective over what it is. Just remember that I can be totally wrong, wouldn't be the first time
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What about the 7 years AFTER all that where they all kept it a secret? The 2 most recent years where they were all playing happy families without the MC? The 7 years they ALL kept up the lie that the MC no longer cared about Milly?
Thats what I've been saying all along, even if you can justify the initial actions while the MC was detained in prison, you can't justify it for the 7 years after and in particular the 2 most recent years where even Deb has been playing happy families.
There was NEVER a plan by ANY of them to tell the MC or Milly what was actually going on.
They, particularly Deb and their mother, would have happily never told MC any of this if it wasn't forced out into the open.
They had 7 years to even start planning to undo what they never even began.
There is no forgiveness for that. none.
Also Astrid is involved in this in some way, she happens to move in right next door to the MC and ALSO get hired as an attendant on Marie's private jet as well then super-conveniently has a reason to need rescuing and then staying with them?
No, the lies are still going on.
Also stop calling it revenge, its not revenge, he was after justice, IE: people answering for their crimes.
If he wanted revenge he could have just tracked that guy down later and killed him, it isn't hard to do.
- Jan 30, 2020
- 127
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Yea me too. Just fucking milking it.........with the mother too. At some point you just get tired of waiting and move on. And when it does happen it will never live up to the hype because of all the milking.
- Jun 10, 2017
- 11,018
- 16,315
What about this ? Nothing about this.
Firstly, because this don't act as a time travel machine that change MC's behavior.
Secondly, because I never said that the family is innocent, and in fact said the opposite three/four times in the message you quote.
Yet, the game say something totally different ; it was even part of the transcript:
MC "They're not threats. It's about time people knew what really goes on... The fuckers screw me over, ruin my life, and expect me to stay quiet!"
Yes, what he initially wanted to do, was talking about atrocities that happened on the field. I never said the opposite.
But there's two parts at this dialog line. The first one show us what he's trying to do, and the second one the reason why he's (now) doing it. And it's clearly said that he want personal revenge.
MC could have said, "After such atrocities, no I'll not stay quiet, it's war crimes". He could have said, "I'll not stay quiet just because they screwed me over and ruined my life". Or, why not, a bit of both justice and revenge, "I'll not stay quiet, especially now that they screwed me over and ruined my life".
But it's not what he said...
- Nov 1, 2017
- 4,660
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In the question of whether the MC was motivated to wage his jailhouse PR campaign because the event that imprisoned him offended his sense of justice or a need for revenge for being dragged through the mud and drummed out of the service... the answer is probably both. That is what makes the debate so interesting, the need to prove that it was one or the other. In the military, you don't have much to call your own. Not much that can't be taken away from you. I speak of this with some experience. But the one thing you can't do without is Honor. But as Falstaff famously said, "What is Honor?" It can easily be conflated by an individual with the respect and admiration that you think you are due. It is not that. It is more like the foundation you have to build your life on, not the house that results from those labors.
So characters are more interesting when they are flawed and it makes them more compelling when you know what they want and what drives them. It is even more interesting when the thing they profess to want is not really going to fill the hole in them. Not the need they are trying to fulfill. Moby Dick was just a whale. Captain Ahab's need to kill him had nothing to do with harvesting blubber. So was it a need to regain honor or was it a need to achieve retribution? It was both, but neither of those was what it was really about.
Ever since MC was humiliated by the discovery of his affair with Deb by their father, he has been trying to redeem himself. But he never understood that redemption was unnecessary. This was his white whale. So the additional consequence of being dishonored is that how would never be able to prove to his old man that he had value despite what he had done. So in pursuit of that goal he didn't care about his ship or his crew (metaphorically speaking) he was gonna get that whale if it was the last thing he did. It didn't matter that the ship was sinking, and without the ship the venture was pointless.
"To the last I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee. Sink all coffins and all hearses to one common pool!"
All members of the family saw this obsession bordering on madness. But in their desperation to save him from the fate he had chosen they chose madness themselves. Their plan, such as it was, can only charitably be described as such. In reality, it was a gambit and the stakes were either losing him forever or losing his love forever. Truly a no-win scenario. They came to an accord that it was better for him to be alive and hate them than dead because he was desperately struggling to be worthy of being loved, unaware that he was already loved regardless. So instead of solving his obsession with the whale, they gave him a new whale to chase.
It's never really about the whale.
So arguing about who was in the right when everyone was wrong is interesting, but it is never going to be productive. If you take a step back and regard the players as necessarily flawed people it is easier to enjoy the narrative as it is. What interests me more is where it is going.
So characters are more interesting when they are flawed and it makes them more compelling when you know what they want and what drives them. It is even more interesting when the thing they profess to want is not really going to fill the hole in them. Not the need they are trying to fulfill. Moby Dick was just a whale. Captain Ahab's need to kill him had nothing to do with harvesting blubber. So was it a need to regain honor or was it a need to achieve retribution? It was both, but neither of those was what it was really about.
Ever since MC was humiliated by the discovery of his affair with Deb by their father, he has been trying to redeem himself. But he never understood that redemption was unnecessary. This was his white whale. So the additional consequence of being dishonored is that how would never be able to prove to his old man that he had value despite what he had done. So in pursuit of that goal he didn't care about his ship or his crew (metaphorically speaking) he was gonna get that whale if it was the last thing he did. It didn't matter that the ship was sinking, and without the ship the venture was pointless.
"To the last I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee. Sink all coffins and all hearses to one common pool!"
All members of the family saw this obsession bordering on madness. But in their desperation to save him from the fate he had chosen they chose madness themselves. Their plan, such as it was, can only charitably be described as such. In reality, it was a gambit and the stakes were either losing him forever or losing his love forever. Truly a no-win scenario. They came to an accord that it was better for him to be alive and hate them than dead because he was desperately struggling to be worthy of being loved, unaware that he was already loved regardless. So instead of solving his obsession with the whale, they gave him a new whale to chase.
It's never really about the whale.
So arguing about who was in the right when everyone was wrong is interesting, but it is never going to be productive. If you take a step back and regard the players as necessarily flawed people it is easier to enjoy the narrative as it is. What interests me more is where it is going.
- Apr 17, 2017
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I got to say, I am pretty annoyed that Astrid got taken anally by a dildo in that group scene before the MC had a chance to do it himself. That could have been easily avoided in one or so scenes where the MC (with light-hearted dialogue) flips Astrid over to finally take her anally while the dildo goes in her puss.
With that little rant out of the way, I really did enjoy this update (for the most part), so well done dev.
With that little rant out of the way, I really did enjoy this update (for the most part), so well done dev.
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- Feb 11, 2018
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I not gonna argue the toss yet again since your just gonna repeat the same thing.
I'll just say this the game has to says it was an Obsession for Revenge.
Beacause If the MC wasn't Obsessed with revenge then what his family do's to the MC ends up being twice as bad.
And then even less people would believe they could be forgiven.
If he meant "The fuckers screw me over, ruin my life, and expect me to stay quiet" about his being incarcerated then yes I agree thats sounds more like revenge.
However if by "The fuckers screw me over, ruin my life, and expect me to stay quiet" is still about what happended on the mission that is still some determined for justice.
It can mean either of them.
But in any case if he lets it drop before or after he is reliesed from prison then he was never Obsessed.
The Moby dick theory was fun btw.
I'll just say this the game has to says it was an Obsession for Revenge.
Beacause If the MC wasn't Obsessed with revenge then what his family do's to the MC ends up being twice as bad.
And then even less people would believe they could be forgiven.
The first part is important ""They're not threats. It's about time people knew what really goes on..."
If he meant "The fuckers screw me over, ruin my life, and expect me to stay quiet" about his being incarcerated then yes I agree thats sounds more like revenge.
However if by "The fuckers screw me over, ruin my life, and expect me to stay quiet" is still about what happended on the mission that is still some determined for justice.
It can mean either of them.
But in any case if he lets it drop before or after he is reliesed from prison then he was never Obsessed.
The Moby dick theory was fun btw.
i havnt played but reading all these coments have been fun. i likely wont play do to it not being a choice to forgive or not what was done seems a pretty major thing that i dont think i would want to continue to play after.
- Nov 1, 2017
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Frankly? I think you should judge for yourself. As you may have noticed, there are some hidebound opinions but you should trust your own judgment rather than anecdotes regarding what the play experience is like. At the very least we will have another voice and a new perspective in the ongoing conversation. I wouldn't mind that a bit.
- Nov 1, 2017
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Thanks. But it was more of an analogy than a theory. Just wanted to unpack my thinking.
- Jan 10, 2018
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Even if we might not fully agree on it or a few other things, it was an interesting read.
Firstly, I wouldy like to say that this is my favorite game out there. I have played from the first posting. I don't really care who is to blame for what has happened. Or whether the MC should have forgiven everyone or not. I only wish the DEV would clear up one Question. The MC asked why he wasn't told everything when he got out of prison. To which he was told because Marie asked that no one would tell him. So the Question that has bugged me the most is. " Why does every member of his family ( who did all this to the MC because they loved him so much ) care more for the desires of the MC's ex-wife than their own flesh and blood." Please Azrayal if you read this answer this question or at least tell us it will be answered in a future update.
Not speaking for the Dev, but just perspective. It was known that if the MC was told what had happened when he got out of prison, he would have gone to find Marie and Milly. However, by the time he got out, Marie was already in too deep with the politician and keeping up with the image he wasn't gay. For MC to find them as soon as he got out would have caused a major disruption. Marie was still allowing the family involvement and the family telling MC everything could have caused Marie to completely cut off the family. It does suck but kinda the best of two evils type thing.
- Nov 1, 2017
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I would have to say that they all fell victim to the good ol Sunk Cost Fallacy. You know, how you have paid into a bad investment for so long that you don't know when to cut your losses. They had invested too much and lost too much in the commission of this practical joke to have a candid camera reveal moment planned to wrap things up. They totally fucked up and they knew that they were stuck like Winnie the Pooh when he ate the honey through that hole in the wall. Never underestimate the cowardice of somebody who thinks they have gotten away with something. Honestly, Deb was probably the only one who wanted him to EVER discover the truth but she just couldn't spit it out. In other words, none of them had a plan on what to do if their plan worked.
Both of your points reinforce what I have said all along their motivations were entirely self serving. Just like the dev who won't give the MC the choice to tell the family to fuck off.
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- Feb 11, 2018
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I am a little bit puzzeled since acording to mommy dearest in this latest update she intended to come clean to the MC all along in this years family gathering.
Now the reason I find that interesting is did she decide that because the MC had already found out about the betrayal.
If its not because of the discovery and she had always planned it then just how do you plan to tell someone the truth at a family gathering.
That the MC himself hasn't attended since just before his incarceration and apparently had no intention of attending this time either.
And that was even before discovering his family's betrayal and I believe if I remeber right he especially wasn't going to after the discovery.
Well that was untill he discovered his x-wife had probably hidden the Item/evidence he needed to keep his daughter safe at his nana's house/grounds.
I mean if mommy had it planned to tell him at that gathering and knew the MC would basically be forced to attend I have to now wonder has she become psychic?.
Now the reason I find that interesting is did she decide that because the MC had already found out about the betrayal.
If its not because of the discovery and she had always planned it then just how do you plan to tell someone the truth at a family gathering.
That the MC himself hasn't attended since just before his incarceration and apparently had no intention of attending this time either.
And that was even before discovering his family's betrayal and I believe if I remeber right he especially wasn't going to after the discovery.
Well that was untill he discovered his x-wife had probably hidden the Item/evidence he needed to keep his daughter safe at his nana's house/grounds.
I mean if mommy had it planned to tell him at that gathering and knew the MC would basically be forced to attend I have to now wonder has she become psychic?.
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- Nov 1, 2017
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If you try to understand the thought process of MC's mom you will literally be in danger of going insane yourself. She is a real piece of work.
- Jan 10, 2018
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True unless she somehow knew about the evidence being there or they planned to kidnap MC or blackmail him into being there somehow (not beyond this family
), it most likely is just an excuse she made up to look better. Which does not mean she might not even believe in it herself and made it up to feel better about herself and her actions and convinced herself it is true ......
- Dec 14, 2021
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This was once my favorite game in the early days, but now it’s far from it. That's when the folder name for this game was followed by (HELL'S GOOD GAME). That hasn't been the case for a long time. I think the point after that reads (NOT WORTH PLAYING). At the same time, the folder is emptied.
This game is now at the point where this is as confusing as it can be and DEV has no idea what direction it wants this game to go. There is hardly even a script to have had since version 5. I wonder for myself that I have endured this game for so long. I think this is starting to be in a state where the story is no longer of interest but everything is skipped with the CTRL button and I watch the mere sex scenes and that too depends on whose scene it goes.
This game is now at the point where this is as confusing as it can be and DEV has no idea what direction it wants this game to go. There is hardly even a script to have had since version 5. I wonder for myself that I have endured this game for so long. I think this is starting to be in a state where the story is no longer of interest but everything is skipped with the CTRL button and I watch the mere sex scenes and that too depends on whose scene it goes.
- Aug 5, 2019
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Lets all agree the real MVP is the Grandma, She laid hands and knees wasn't even fazed by getting dirty when she found out what happened. She is a soldier didn't even say shit all you hear(read) You and you here now.. Next sounds bodies on the floor and still running to body more people involved. Gotta love grandma who can still brawl