DeepInteractivity

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I do agree with the thoughts around the question of when an exclusive relationship should be made accessible
After giving it some extra thought during sleep, a good compromise could be scrapping the "exclusive relationships is something you get into at the latter stages of the game" and instead going for "exclusive relationships are a ladder of options with increasing significance that become available as the game advances". This way, the tier 1 of these relationships would be something that increases the likelihood of NPCs to look for intimancy with characters they've grown closer to without making them exclusive, while the last tier would be full exclusivity with stat bonuses when fighting together, to put an example.

I'd love if you would, at some point, implement something that allows spanking and other punishment sessions for dom/sub relationships outside of the (so far for me) pretty rare moments where e.g. Mir gives one (like literally 1) spank every 5th fun time. I assume that her preferences, though, play a (big?) part in that as well. Still, I've no idea how I could influence that, since there is no option to ask her to be a bit rougher (which then could slowly increase her fancy for that sort of thing).
As of right now sexual encounters are mostly random, and while that's great, it can get tedious when you want to see a particular scene or fetish, so it'd be great if when you enter into a sub/dom or intimate relationship you would have the option to request spanking session, or foot fetish scene an the sexual encounter focuses around your request an of course, if the Dom, choosing what it will be
Right now, the form of influencing NPC's sexual tastes is making them interact with actions related to a specific taste in the same turn they experience an orgasm. This system allows the player to have some influence, but it's hard to navigate when you're the sub in a relationship. I've thought about implementing generic interactions that are easier to use to influence the NPCs' tastes, but making it something excessively straight-forward doesn't fit well with the design philosophy of the game of summing up small actions during some time until there are noticeable changes. Still, I'd thank you if you reminded me about this once the first adventure gets finished and I can return my attention to general gameplay changes.
 
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Orphanus

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After giving it some extra thought during sleep, a good compromise could be scrapping the "exclusive relationships is something you get into at the latter stages of the game" and instead going for "exclusive relationships are a ladder of options with increasing significance that become available as the game advances". This way, the tier 1 of these relationships would be something that increases the likelihood of NPCs to look for intimancy with characters they've grown closer to without making them exclusive, while the last tier would be full exclusivity with stat bonuses when fighting together, to put an example.





Right now, the form of influencing NPC's sexual tastes is making them interact with actions related to a specific taste in the same turn they experience an orgasm. This system allows the player to have some influence, but it's hard to navigate when you're the sub in a relationship. I've thought about implementing generic interactions that are easier to use to influence the NPCs' tastes, but making it something excessively straight-forward doesn't fit well with the design philosophy of the game of summing up small actions during some time until there are noticeable changes. Still, I'd thank you if you reminded me about this once the first adventure gets finished and I can return my attention to general gameplay changes.
That actually sounds like a very good and smart solution, I see it as very fitting for the game and it's current mechanics, as well as the intent to make the other characters feel more alive by them doing their own things and changing over the game as well.

I'm sure we'll happily remind you of this discussion once you are done with the current adventure & be sure we'll be excited once the time has come. I feel as if both ItzSpc and me did not mean that you should hit everyone on the head with an overly simplified and controllable way to change the other candidates preferences (I mean from how I understand it that is more of a thing for the cheats one gets for supporting the game on patreon?) but a little more of a way to align preferences with your close bonded partners would be a blessing, I mean especially when it fits personality and their motivations.
 
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ItzSpc

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That actually sounds like a very good and smart solution, I see it as very fitting for the game and it's current mechanics, as well as the intent to make the other characters feel more alive by them doing their own things and changing over the game as well.

I'm sure we'll happily remind you of this discussion once you are done with the current adventure & be sure we'll be excited once the time has come. I feel as if both ItzSpc and me did not mean that you should hit everyone on the head with an overly simplified and controllable way to change the other candidates preferences (I mean from how I understand it that is more of a thing for the cheats one gets for supporting the game on patreon?) but a little more of a way to align preferences with your close bonded partners would be a blessing, I mean especially when it fits personality and their motivations.
Well when I was talking about being able to make requests, I didn't mean it as a way to influence the preferences of candidates, but rather, being able to request one of your own preferences with the candidate of your choice. Perhaps wherever they agree or not can be check based on your charm, if it aligns to their preferences, or if they desire you. If the check fails then perhaps the player could offer a favor in exchange for them granting the request. I personally would like to have this option so it'd be possible to view all the different sex scenes without having to grind a particular preference on one of the candidates until its high enough so they start to use it. If this mechanic was introduced perhaps it'd be a good idea to introduce a fetish system, so if the player continued to request a particular kink, then the fetish meter of that particular kink ticks up, which would make the player more vulnerable to those pleasure attacks and the candidates become aware of your particular weakness and start to comment on it and even exploit it.

In short, I do enjoy the AI system in place to help bring the characters to life where each new game will turn out different, all I'm asking for is more agency for the player. It'd be great if we could have both.
 
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Orphanus

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Well when I was talking about being able to make requests, I didn't mean it as a way to influence the preferences of candidates, but rather, being able to request one of your own preferences with the candidate of your choice. Perhaps wherever they agree or not can be check based on your charm, if it aligns to their preferences, or if they desire you. If the check fails then perhaps the player could offer a favor in exchange for them granting the request. I personally would like to have this option so it'd be possible to view all the different sex scenes without having to grind a particular preference on one of the candidates until its high enough so they start to use it. If this mechanic was introduced perhaps it'd be a good idea to introduce a fetish system, so if the player continued to request a particular kink, then the fetish meter of that particular ticks up, which would make the player more vulnerable to those pleasure attacks an the candidates become aware of your particular weakness an start to comment on it and even exploit it.

In short, I do enjoy the AI system in place to help bring the characters alive where each new game will turn out different, all I'm asking is for more agency for the player. It'd be great if we could have both.
I probably messed up the way I wrote my thoughts, English isn't my first language, what I had in mind when writing that was that the interactions influence the other character so if you ask for something and you do it together with them and (in this specific case) they also cum while e.g. spanking you it will increase their enjoyment of that kink, so while I didn't explain it well what I have in mind is actually anything along the lines of what you suggest. I mean I'd even be happy with "just" the option to talk about such things with a character you have a bond with, which later down the line once reaching higher stages of the relationship could become more specific (as you wrote before stuff like some sort of punishment session in a strong dom/sub relationship)
 
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iamnuff

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How do you get the ethereal chains spell?
I got to an event requiring it but I haven't learned anything past the starting three spells, despite being a will-build.

Also, I was super proud of myself for beating Claws in the first challenge, and I took her as a servant... and then she immediately challenged me for her liberation and I couldn't win the second fight.
Well, it was fun for the about ten minutes that it lasted.

Edit: Also, is the tiny question-mark supposed to be something that you can highlight to bring up a tooltip explaining what an option means or does?
Because it's not.
 
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DeepInteractivity

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How do you get the ethereal chains spell?
I got to an event requiring it but I haven't learned anything past the starting three spells, despite being a will-build.
At some point of the game before battles become enabled, you get to choose one of three options that give you different actions. One of these three options gives you ethereal chains. There will be options to gain the other actions in the future in you don't get them here though.

Edit: Also, is the tiny question-mark supposed to be something that you can highlight to bring up a tooltip explaining what an option means or does?
Because it's not.
It is meant to bring up a tooltip, yes. Does it not show any? What platform and browser are you using? Where's the specific question-mark you're trying to examine?

Also, I was super proud of myself for beating Claws in the first challenge, and I took her as a servant... and then she immediately challenged me for her liberation and I couldn't win the second fight.
Well, it was fun for the about ten minutes that it lasted.
Here's a tip: if you don't think you can win a liberation challenge, don't make your servant follow you during the first day of servitude so that they don't initiate liberation challenges, equip bondage on them at the end of the day, and if they challenge you for liberation during the next day, it'll be much easier for you to win.
 
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iamnuff

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Ah, it's an alternative to hypnosis then?
It is meant to bring up a tooltip, yes. Does it not show any? What platform and browser are you using? Where's the specific question-mark you're trying to examine?
I'm using Brave, which is basically chrome.

I've had it function a couple of times, but most of the time the question marks do nothing.
For example, the 'actions' that you can view on your room, have no tooltip.

I think i've seen... maybe two of them work, throughout the whole game?

Here's a tip: if you don't think you can win a liberation challenge, don't make your servant follow you during the first day of servitude so that they don't initiate liberation challenges, equip bondage on them at the end of the day, and if they challenge you for liberation during the next day, it'll be much easier for you to win.
Sneaky.

Edit: It feels like the gleaming caverns should have more events.
I drew on Mir, got caught spying on lovers by Claw, made a toy to play with Nash, Found Val in the caverns (but can't find her again, I guess she's gone?) and I did the transformation scene.
But now there's not much else to do.

Guess I should just spam the workshop and drama until time runs out?

Edit2: Actually, the transformation settings in your room are a little unclear. It looks like I should be able to tick multiple boxes to select what I will and won't allow, but I can't. I can only select one.

So, uh... how does that work? Am I just making it so that transformation scenes only effect a single thing?
 

DeepInteractivity

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For example, the 'actions' that you can view on your room, have no tooltip.
Noted, will fix the code tomorrow morning.

Edit: It feels like the gleaming caverns should have more events.
The Gleaming Caverns aren't finished yet. There's still a couple of events to come, content involving hunting monsters for Artume, and another event chain related to the main story. If you manage your time very efficiently, you may still run out of things to do, at which point you should aim to maximize your reputation gains with the Shapeshifters.

Edit2: Actually, the transformation settings in your room are a little unclear. It looks like I should be able to tick multiple boxes to select what I will and won't allow, but I can't. I can only select one.
The transformation settings are done in such a way that it's possible to select many different possible AI behaviors with as few variables as possible. If there's a specific kind of behavior you'd like to see that it's impossible, point it out and I'll add it to the things to do.
 

sbarabaus

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i really like this game, the premise is something i had hoped to see for a long time

btw, what engine is used to create these html fight/sex games?
the interface and combat mechanics look similar
 

sbarabaus

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so each game of this type (like lilith's throne or degrees of lewdity) has its combat system built from scratch on top of twine?
or is it something twine kinda offers by default like RPGmaker?

sorry to bother you, i just don't know twine
 

Hongfire Survivor

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sbarabaus Twine. It has a very extense code on top of it though, and I would choose a different engine if I were to rebuild the game from zero.
Why would you use a different engine and what engine would you pick instead?

The more I play this, the more I enjoy it. Great writing and my imagination handles the rest.

Making Claw submit is my favorite past time.

I've been debating using Twine , Renpy, or Java/JavaFX for my own text-based game, but I have more experience with HTML/CSS/JavaScript.

Hence Twine. I can see making your game look "different" being a problem with the Twine interface.
 
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DeepInteractivity

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so each game of this type (like lilith's throne or degrees of lewdity) has its combat system built from scratch on top of twine?
or is it something twine kinda offers by default like RPGmaker?
I'm 95% certain that Lilith's Throne's battle system, for instance, has also been coded from the scratch, since it started out with a lot of mechanics (in terms of code logic) that were pretty much its own. It's possible that Renpy-based games such as Monster Girls Dream used an external library as the foundation for their battle system (there are other such libraries for Twine, but I have never seen them used in anything other than demos), but as soon as you want to make anything interesting in a turn-based RPG you have to be ready to code additional features.

Why would you use a different engine and what engine would you pick instead?
I wouldn't use Twine because a lot of game data gets stored in the browser's local storage, which is usually very limited in size. This means that I constantly have to optimize data usage and there are tight limits on how much info I can expect the game to handle. Initially, I had planned tribes to be brimming with a lot of full-fledged NPCs, going around in their daily routines, but this limitation would force me to make radical changes to the game in order to be able to implement this.

Which one would I pick? I would take a few weeks to study a few and probably get in contact with other developers to ask them about not too very obvious details that I would otherwise only notice about a year into the game development. Sounds too specific? :p

I've been debating using Twine , Renpy, or Java/JavaFX for my own text-based game, but I have more experience with HTML/CSS/JavaScript.

Hence Twine. I can see making your game look "different" being a problem with the Twine interface.
Depending on what you want your game to be, Twine doesn't have why to be a bad choice. It just has severe limitations for specific kinds of projects, but it's good for more traditional CHYOA text-based games.
 

Orphanus

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I'm 95% certain that Lilith's Throne's battle system, for instance, has also been coded from the scratch, since it started out with a lot of mechanics (in terms of code logic) that were pretty much its own. It's possible that Renpy-based games such as Monster Girls Dream used an external library as the foundation for their battle system (there are other such libraries for Twine, but I have never seen them used in anything other than demos), but as soon as you want to make anything interesting in a turn-based RPG you have to be ready to code additional features.



I wouldn't use Twine because a lot of game data gets stored in the browser's local storage, which is usually very limited in size. This means that I constantly have to optimize data usage and there are tight limits on how much info I can expect the game to handle. Initially, I had planned tribes to be brimming with a lot of full-fledged NPCs, going around in their daily routines, but this limitation would force me to make radical changes to the game in order to be able to implement this.
Given the explanation it's obvious why those ideas will not make it into reality but darn, that is still really, really sad. I can only hope that, at some point in the future, you decide to make another game and then maybe get to such a level of detail and immersive world building. You seem to have all the right ideas & also a knack for somehow pulling stuff off that to my experience never really worked in other games.
 
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sbarabaus

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a minor suggestion: sex scenes should be shorter when one character has permanent lead, or at least we should be able to end them earlier
30 turns are a bit too much (i know it's customizable, but i think it's an ok length for sex scenes with dynamic leading)
 
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tehlemon

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Cool game. I like what you're doing with it.

Time for a long post... Sorry in advance.

I particularly like your character writing. Aside from Claw, I like them all. Claw refusing to actually speak to anyone makes it real hard for me (the player) to care about her one way or another. She's not aggressive or antagonistic, and because you can't interact with her she might as well not be there. And once she does open up, it jumps pretty quickly to the randomized events and she's never given a moment or two to really build her into a character that I (the character) would either like or not like. It'd be nice to see a scene or two that kind of like, establishes her as a character worth giving a shit about. Maybe its because I won the challenge with her, but her only big scene seems to be more about Nash than her.

Val is probably my favorite. I like that she seems to have some depth to her. How her interactions with the player, the group, and semi-private moments all kind of build on each other. I legit can't tell if she's being nice and personable because that's who she is and she actually likes me (the character), or if she's just a natural manipulator playing the game too. I like that characters kind of have a sense of who they are, and who they present themselves as. And the different motivations seem like their personalities could change over time, although I imagine that's going to be a nightmare to right around later lol

That said, here's a few random game play suggestions, if you don't mind.

First, when an NPC invites the player to a party, it might be good to tweak how their AI works. I keep running into situations where they invite me, we move one square, and then they kick me out. And then as soon as I try to move, they invite me again. And this repeats over and over.

The way I'd tweak this is by giving NPCs goals when they invite the player. Look a few turns forward with their AI and figure out where they're most likely to go and what activity they'll likely hit next. Then invite the player to come with to do that activity. Or ask the player to come with them to a specific location where their next activity will be, if they're not asking the player to participate. Give them a higher probability of following that goal. That way they don't invite and immediately drop the player. You could even change the invite dialog to be them inviting the player to do the thing they're focused on next, which might make it all feel a bit more natural. You could also let the player invite the NPC to join them for specific activities as well, which might be interesting.

Of course, change in the game state could change their goal. I'd probably handle this in two ways. If the leading NPC has a dominant relationship with the player, I'd just have them say "we're going to this different activity now" and lead the character where they now want to go. If the NPC has a more friendly or submission position relative to player, have them ask the player if they'd like to head to the new activity instead. If another NPC joins the group and wants to take the leading position, have a blurb where they ask both people if they'd like to do the new goal instead.

Or you can just like, lock them to their goal and not do all that stuff. That kind of interaction becomes a huge workload quickly. This is the kind of interaction that I tend to take way too far with my own development, and most of the work isn't even really noticeable by players who aren't specifically looking for it. So its probably not always actually worth making it as complex as I would lol

While I'm editing this post I thought of another fun one. It'd be interesting if a NPCs could try and recruit characters who are already in parties. It'd force the recruited character to decide who to follow. Given the relationship stats already being tracked, this would be pretty fitting. If an NPC steals the player away from another, the original NPC might see an increased rivalry and animosity with the player and recruiting NPC. The recruiter would like the recruitee more, and so on.

And also, once they do drop a player, make them take a full turn before they're able to invite again. That'll stop the NPCs from seeming like they can't make up their mind and avoid the looping that I keep running into lol1


Second, for the life of me I can't figure out the challenge system. None of the NPCs will accept any of the challenge options at any time of day or any location. And I honestly have no idea how that system is supposed to work at all. Combine this with the fact that I'm trying to avoid just assaulting everyone because it wouldn't make sense with the character I'm playing, there's very few ways for me to actually try and experience the combat system. I played around with combat mostly by save scumming to trigger the one event with val/mir that lets you initiate combat.

It might be nice to have a more neutrally motivated way to challenge someone. Instead of an outright challenge which seems to have some stricter requirements, maybe add a spar option in. It seems like both claw and nash should be willing to spar with the player, if they were on friendly terms and were asked. And I could definitely see the other three being open to practice with the player as well, as long as they're on good terms. That'd give me (the player) a chance to actually try out combat while still sticking to the character I'm playing.


Lastly, while I know its probably a bit cheaty, maybe put in an option to let the players know where the NPCs are on the map. While its less realistic, it would make finding specific people easier. I'm pretty sure whenever I lose someone I'm trying to find they're just off with someone in private, but would be nice to not waste a bunch of player actions (not character actions) roaming around the map looking for people.
 
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DeepInteractivity

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Claw refusing to actually speak to anyone makes it real hard for me (the player) to care about her one way or another. She's not aggressive or antagonistic, and because you can't interact with her she might as well not be there.
Insightful input. Will be pondering about it.

First, when an NPC invites the player to a party, it might be good to tweak how their AI works. I keep running into situations where they invite me, we move one square, and then they kick me out. And then as soon as I try to move, they invite me again. And this repeats over and over.
I was certain that I had already touched this :unsure: Will be taking a look at it again in the future.

While I'm editing this post I thought of another fun one. It'd be interesting if a NPCs could try and recruit characters who are already in parties. It'd force the recruited character to decide who to follow. Given the relationship stats already being tracked, this would be pretty fitting. If an NPC steals the player away from another, the original NPC might see an increased rivalry and animosity with the player and recruiting NPC. The recruiter would like the recruitee more, and so on.
I like this idea, noting it down.

The way I'd tweak this is by giving NPCs goals when they invite the player. Look a few turns forward with their AI and figure out where they're most likely to go and what activity they'll likely hit next.
Making a generalist implementation of this for the whole map AI seems too time-consuming to me to make it worth doing, but I had already planned a smaller implementation of something similar to make different characters team up to gang on a rival who might be doing far too well. This would solve the issue of the player growing too strong too soon, out of any NPC's reach.

Second, for the life of me I can't figure out the challenge system. None of the NPCs will accept any of the challenge options at any time of day or any location. And I honestly have no idea how that system is supposed to work at all.
If they never accept the challenge, it's because they're scared of you. They may be willing to accept your challenges if you purposefully attempt to get your bars dangerously low, especially lust. Social drive shouldn't be as important iirc.

Lastly, while I know its probably a bit cheaty, maybe put in an option to let the players know where the NPCs are on the map.
Come on now, knowing everyone's location is the privilege of the AI. You want to take the only advantage they have over the player away from them? :p
 

tehlemon

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Making a generalist implementation of this for the whole map AI seems too time-consuming to me to make it worth doing, but I had already planned a smaller implementation of something similar to make different characters team up to gang on a rival who might be doing far too well. This would solve the issue of the player growing too strong too soon, out of any NPC's reach.
Makes sense. And yeah, it would likely be time consuming. And it'd be time consuming for something that no one but people like me would probably ever notice lol

And I like that idea. I'm the player who's growing too strong too quickly, to be honest. I did more or less what the guide suggested (I really should have read that thing first. Anyone else playing this for the first time, read the guide first lol) and min/maxed the hell out of phys/int. Gotta live that battle mage fantasy lol

If they never accept the challenge, it's because they're scared of you. They may be willing to accept your challenges if you purposefully attempt to get your bars dangerously low, especially lust. Social drive shouldn't be as important iirc.
What contributes to them being scared of the player character? I'm guessing its looking at your raw stats on top of the relationship tracking stats? I'm definitely leading by a mile in the two stats I'm min/maxing. My int is at like 22 or 23 when my opponents are only at like 17. Although the rest of my stats are pretty baseline.

On my current save, I've only been in combat once during the event that unlocks combat. And I've been playing nice with all the NPCs, so pretty much everyone likes everyone (except claw, but I imagine that'd change in a few days). I'm at zero rivalry and emnity with everyone but claw, who's only at level 1. But even claw is at level 3 friendship already, if that plays a factor.

Just to try it, I set my lust/willpower/energy all to 10 and tried challenging claw, and that time she accepted. And I would have won the fight, but after pinning claw I immediately KOed myself lol

Come on now, knowing everyone's location is the privilege of the AI. You want to take the only advantage they have over the player away from them? :p
I meaannnnnn, fair. But also, it only takes like, less than 15 minutes of in-game time to check every tile except their rooms (from the main room, while ignoring the rooms the NPCs never seem to visit). And if they're not anywhere, the ones that are missing are probably off having fun without me lol

Imma be honest, that one was mostly just laziness on my part lol
 
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tehlemon

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Okay, I found one more bit of AI hilarity. I managed to convince Claw to accept a challenge and beat her. I moved one square, and she immediately challenged me. And then immediately lost because she still had zero lust.

And then she did it three more times lol

I'm not sure if their lust should have reset and didn't, but if its not supposed to it might be a good idea to only allow NPC's to issue challenges if they have the stats to survive the first round of combat lol
 

DeepInteractivity

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What contributes to them being scared of the player character? I'm guessing its looking at your raw stats on top of the relationship tracking stats?
Raw stats, multiplied by a fraction of your current lust, and multiplied by 0.9 or 0.95 multiple times if your other bars are getting depleted.

Okay, I found one more bit of AI hilarity. I managed to convince Claw to accept a challenge and beat her. I moved one square, and she immediately challenged me. And then immediately lost because she still had zero lust.
Eeeh, that's a big OOF on my part. Lust should always reset after generic battles. Will have to look into it.
 
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