We need more transparency and communication

[morphnet]

So I just want to clarify a few things that I think people are misunderstanding. By no means am I disagreeing with anyone that at the end of the day it is still up to the user to keep paying or not. Neither do I strictly mean forcing anyone to produce content quicker than they are comfortable with. As some of you have said, being devs yourself, there's a lot going on in life for everyone and it isn't always easy to juggle all the finances. A huge thing is transparency and communication. I bet most of you good devs out there, you the mvp btw, actually talk to your supporters/fans and explain, even simply, how things are going and so on so forth. The whole pre determined requirement for each month doesn't strictly have to be playable content, I do have a general idea of how game development works, I know its not just a non stop content train. It was meant to be a means of forcing more transparency out of devs so that people could have a more educated idea of if they wanted to continue pledging. Something like that wouldn't be harmful to the legit devs that are honest but it would bring to light any of the shitty people that have nothing to show for the last 6 months of money they absorbed in the so called "costs"

That is fair and it's a great idea but the title "Possibly unpopular opinion about Patreon" is misleading then and maybe should be changed to "dev's should be more transparent" Patreon doesn't stop dev's from being transparent and in fact encourages them to be open and honest, it's up to dev's to do this though.

 

[VIHooligan]

And it's mostly highlighted out of self frustration.
I'll not say that no one ever complained about this issue before, but it's only when ICSTOR started to act like a fucking cunt that it really arisen as the generic complain it now is. Before this, a creator could release one update a year, and globally no one would complain. This while now it's almost if a creator isn't accused to milk his patrons if (s)he don't release one week of game content every month ; even when this creator don't even earn enough to pay a beer.




Really ?

Due to your previous comment, and the thread you're saying this, I assume that "good dev" mean "dev that release consistent update regularly enough". Therefore, can you take a better look at the list of

You must be registered to see the links

, and tell me how many of those "good devs" are in the top 100 ; there's some when you look attentively.
And while searching for them, note the number of creators who earn less than US$ 10,000 while still being in the said top 100, over the 5,180 creators in total.
Or note the difference between the US$ 9,411/month earned by Arc (22th), creator of Corrupted Kingdoms, a game mostly updated every two weeks, and the US$ 25,774/month earned by Sad crab (23th), creator of Innocent Witches, a game that nearly have one (generally small) update every year.

The truth is that patrons don't care this much about the regularity of the update, nor about their constancy in regard of the time past waiting. You do, good for you, but you aren't part of the majority.

The way your saying that makes it sound like ICSTOR is the only dev who's done it which is wildly untrue. Refer to what I said earlier, it's not just about "content" its about showing your supporters where your at along the way. The thing that patrons do care about is transparency and knowing what their money is going towards. I want nothing more than the competent devs who deserve the money and support to flourish but it's even harder for them to do that when there's a big name that soaks up the money. Also idk if our definitions of a "good dev" are the same but I'm not judging it by their output, I'm judging it on their character.

That is fair and it's a great idea but the title "Possibly unpopular opinion about Patreon" is misleading then and maybe should be changed to "dev's should be more transparent" Patreon doesn't stop dev's from being transparent and in fact encourages them to be open and honest, it's up to dev's to do this though.

Fair, I wasn't trying to be misleading just wasn't sure exactly what to put in the subject, how do i change it? Lmao sorry new poster. Yeah, I just think something like this wouldn't be harmful to honest devs but would force the dishonest ones to nut up or shut up.

 

[anne O'nymous]

The way your saying that makes it sound like ICSTOR is the only dev who's done it which is wildly untrue.

The way I said that is directly and explicitly addressing, from start to stop, the persons who complain. At no time I said that ICSTOR is the only dev milking his patrons, and in fact at no time I said that he is doing it. He's named only as a reference to the time this change of behavior, from a parts of the community, started ; a reference way more explicit than a "x years and y months ago" that would talk to no one.
He clearly ended acting like a cunt but, not being one of is patrons, I don't know if he's taking their money or if he frozen the pledges. Therefore I can't, and will not, say that he's milking, nor can I, or will I, say that he isn't. Since milking is explicitly what was addressed here.

 

[JoleenStar]

I mean, Patreon doesn't exist JUST for porn. Most shitty devs tend to be unsubbed. There will always be exceptions.

 

[Houtamelo]

They are not forcing anyone to support them. If people are unsatisfied with the work ethic or content, they can stop supporting them.

The patreon model is based on the concept of the patron of the arts. It's an interpersonal relationship (albeit in a crowdsourced system). You like the person and their work, so you financially support them so they could continue to do what they do. If they turned out to be a fraud, well you fucked up. Try to vet people better next time.

There is a misconception that the patreon system is some kind of business transaction where you are buying a product or some sort of contractual system for a service. No, you are simply supporting the creator of the product financially.

Whereas before, you had to be a rich dude, the patreon system allowed people to pool their money to act like a patron of the art. That's really all it is. People need to take personal responsibility for their own money.

This. People who facepalmed this post should take some time to research what are the origins of Patreon. It was never about buying a product or getting something in return, it was about supporting "artists" (people that create content in general) in their work. If you believe that a developer on patreon owes you anything, that is a expectation you created by yourself, creators don't own you anything unless explicitly specified in their tiers.

Patreon is not kickstarter, the owner of the page is not promising you a product if you donate (unless explicitly stated of course).

With that in mind, there are a few reasons why you should support developers on patreon even if they don't end up fullfiling your expectations:
-Since the developer is independent, they are not forced to follow a publisher's demands (publisher often prioritize quick profits over good gameplay).
-The developer can constantly get feedback about the game and make changes accordingly.
-It allows people to pursue their passion without having to go through the very degrading AAA industry.
-With enough funding, games can get drastically improved with developers bringing more skilled people to the team.

Of course, these do not come with drawbacks, especially in NSFW games where the developer most likely won't share his portfolio in order to protect his anonymity:
-Without good transparency, you have no way of knowning how skilled or good-willing a developer is.
-Since it's a low-budget industry, NSFW developers are likely to be amateurs - which decreases a chance of a project being finished.

Lastly, "scamming" people through NSFW patreon is not a profitable business, if you take a look at the patreon charts you'll see that the great majority of devs don't even earn minimum wage in the US or an european country so often the effort is not even worth it. Scams still happen but as a supporter you can "vote" with your money by not supporting those.

Most projects are started with passion but a lot of them wouldn't be finished if they weren't funded through the platform.

 

[morphnet]

The way your saying that makes it sound like ICSTOR is the only dev who's done it which is wildly untrue. Refer to what I said earlier, it's not just about "content" its about showing your supporters where your at along the way. The thing that patrons do care about is transparency and knowing what their money is going towards. I want nothing more than the competent devs who deserve the money and support to flourish but it's even harder for them to do that when there's a big name that soaks up the money. Also idk if our definitions of a "good dev" are the same but I'm not judging it by their output, I'm judging it on their character.

The way anne made is sound was ICSTOR was there at the beginning and was one of those that started it all.
Some patrons care about transparency but some don't care at all and even forget they are subbing sometimes.

"but it's even harder for them to do that when there's a big name that soaks up the money." That is not really true, if the dev's game doesn't cater to the tastes and fetishes of players they wouldn't support the game even if they were not supporting a big name. Games sharing the same genre do compete but then it comes down to tastes and personal opinions.

The "big name" started small like all the others but their game was enjoyed enough to help them reach a "big name"

"Also idk if our definitions of a "good dev" are the same but I'm not judging it by their output, I'm judging it on their character."
Judging them on character makes them a good person not a good dev. Good people can be bad dev's and bad people can be good dev's. It's best never to mix up "personal" and "professional" Liking someone is fine but just because someone might be a good person doesn't mean they have good business sense or are good with money.

Fair, I wasn't trying to be misleading just wasn't sure exactly what to put in the subject, how do i change it? Lmao sorry new poster. Yeah, I just think something like this wouldn't be harmful to honest devs but would force the dishonest ones to nut up or shut up.

No need to say sorry we all live and learn You can use the report button under the OP to request title change.

"I just think something like this wouldn't be harmful to honest devs but would force the dishonest ones to nut up or shut up."

That is a nice thought but it won't happen, too many people putting the blame in the wrong places and too many people who don't care. Until someone can get EVERYONE to agree to stopping their support and all confronting "the dev in the wrong" nothing will change and even if by some miracle that did happen there is still a good chance the dev says screw it and abandons their game.

That is just the way things are, the options open to you are to choose to hang in there and hope for the best or to move on.

 

[anne O'nymous]

"Also idk if our definitions of a "good dev" are the same but I'm not judging it by their output, I'm judging it on their character."
Judging them on character makes them a good person not a good dev. Good people can be bad dev's and bad people can be good dev's. It's best never to mix up "personal" and "professional" Liking someone is fine but just because someone might be a good person doesn't mean they have good business sense or are good with money.

Anyway, how can you judge someone's character through totally impersonal online interactions ? This especially when this "someone" is a creator who potentially expect your money, while facing some people who are real cunt.

What we know of a creator character is nothing more than what he agree to show us. The fact that he looks gentle and polite can perfectly be an act, while it's not because he tell an idiot to go fuck himself, that he's a bad guy.
In the same way, it's not because he don't talk much that he's secretive, he can just be shy ; because yes, shyness also apply online. And it's not because he talk a lot that he effectively care, some just like to hear their voice ; well, in this case it's more "read their words".

 

[VIHooligan]

The way anne made is sound was ICSTOR was there at the beginning and was one of those that started it all.
Some patrons care about transparency but some don't care at all and even forget they are subbing sometimes.

"but it's even harder for them to do that when there's a big name that soaks up the money." That is not really true, if the dev's game doesn't cater to the tastes and fetishes of players they wouldn't support the game even if they were not supporting a big name. Games sharing the same genre do compete but then it comes down to tastes and personal opinions.

The "big name" started small like all the others but their game was enjoyed enough to help them reach a "big name"

"Also idk if our definitions of a "good dev" are the same but I'm not judging it by their output, I'm judging it on their character."
Judging them on character makes them a good person not a good dev. Good people can be bad dev's and bad people can be good dev's. It's best never to mix up "personal" and "professional" Liking someone is fine but just because someone might be a good person doesn't mean they have good business sense or are good with money.



No need to say sorry we all live and learn You can use the report button under the OP to request title change.

"I just think something like this wouldn't be harmful to honest devs but would force the dishonest ones to nut up or shut up."

That is a nice thought but it won't happen, too many people putting the blame in the wrong places and too many people who don't care. Until someone can get EVERYONE to agree to stopping their support and all confronting "the dev in the wrong" nothing will change and even if by some miracle that did happen there is still a good chance the dev says screw it and abandons their game.

That is just the way things are, the options open to you are to choose to hang in there and hope for the best or to move on.

Yeah I apologize for some poor wording on my part, I struggle to find the correct words sometimes. True, your not wrong, I shouldn't have said it like that. Was just kind of thinking of a few of the bigger games that still have a lot of supporters for some god known reason that absorb a lot of the stupidity.

As for the judging them by character wasn't meant to be taken quite so literally as though I meant I was friends with the guy and knew them 5 years, of course theirs anonymity but unless anyone else out there knows a dev personally we all have the same information to go off of regarding at least professional character. I was just trying to find a way to say that I wasn't wanting to hold a gun to anyone's head and be all like silver or lead? Maybe work ethic would be a better word? idk, sorry for the confusion.

Again I have to agree with you, it will always be a problem, but what I mentioned, which as I said earlier is by no means a perfect solution it is just a rough idea to work with, would be more of a passive way of opening up some transparency, without stepping on anyone's toes. Not everyone has to stop their support, nor will the stupid ones, but that's a given. It would just be nice to have some more clairty on what their putting their money towards. At that point its free game, do what you please.

Anyway, how can you judge someone's character through totally impersonal online interactions ? This especially when this "someone" is a creator who potentially expect your money, while facing some people who are real cunt.

What we know of a creator character is nothing more than what he agree to show us. The fact that he looks gentle and polite can perfectly be an act, while it's not because he tell an idiot to go fuck himself, that he's a bad guy.
In the same way, it's not because he don't talk much that he's secretive, he can just be shy ; because yes, shyness also apply online. And it's not because he talk a lot that he effectively care, some just like to hear their voice ; well, in this case it's more "read their words".

Just to save a metric fuck ton of writing, pretty much everything you mention here I covered in the reply above this so, kindly read over that if you haven't

P.S. Please bear with my through my poor grammer/writing. I really struggle with words mentally sometimes so what I said may not have been exactly what I meant. Cheers, take care peoples.

 

[Hullahopp]

A simple solution to milking: every developer must post at least 10 minutes of content every 3 months. Or they must voluntarily suspend their support. Otherwise, Patreon will send an automatic warning message to their supporters. "Warning! Probably scammers! Support them only at your own risk!"
Well, if I, the silly blue collar, came up with this solution, I'm sure others did too. Yet I know of no such possibility.

 

[Echoesinthedarkness]

op, I literally thought for a couple of minutes on how to describe you and your post, but all variants that I came up with probably will get me banned, so I'll say that you are special. Like, first things first: thats not your fucking money that people spend on their subscriptions, I guess if they were responcible enough to earn them, they also responcible enough to spend them (tough concept for someone who hasnt worked a day in his life, I know). Second of all: fucking check how much projects actually get enough support to justify the devs to going full time on them - plot twist you need to work hard to get to that point because 3) you are competing with piracy which lets people get anything for free. Assuming you do work, its like you will be competing for your work with a person who agrees to do your job for free. Imagine fucking that.
So yeah, how about you shut your fucking mouth and actually become patreon creator and try to earn these supposingly easy money yourself.
Just dont forget to tell us how that went for ya.

 

[morphnet]

op, I literally thought for a couple of minutes on how to describe you and your post, but all variants that I came up with probably will get me banned, so I'll say that you are special. Like, first things first: thats not your fucking money that people spend on their subscriptions, I guess if they were responcible enough to earn them, they also responcible enough to spend them (tough concept for someone who hasnt worked a day in his life, I know). Second of all: fucking check how much projects actually get enough support to justify the devs to going full time on them - plot twist you need to work hard to get to that point because 3) you are competing with piracy which lets people get anything for free. Assuming you do work, its like you will be competing for your work with a person who agrees to do your job for free. Imagine fucking that.
So yeah, how about you shut your fucking mouth and actually become patreon creator and try to earn these supposingly easy money yourself.
Just dont forget to tell us how that went for ya.

Whoa, dial it back 200 or 300 notches... OP has not been agro or insulting in his posts and has been open to the replies he has received, he just has trouble communicating. Instead of coming out with agro and "shut your fucking mouth" you calmly help share different points of view and maybe in a constructive way give him ideas to help him find a solution. Remember others will read this thread in the future and may feel the same way as him and advice you share with him might help future readers too.

Yeah I apologize for some poor wording on my part, I struggle to find the correct words sometimes. True, your not wrong, I shouldn't have said it like that. Was just kind of thinking of a few of the bigger games that still have a lot of supporters for some god known reason that absorb a lot of the stupidity.

As for the judging them by character wasn't meant to be taken quite so literally as though I meant I was friends with the guy and knew them 5 years, of course theirs anonymity but unless anyone else out there knows a dev personally we all have the same information to go off of regarding at least professional character. I was just trying to find a way to say that I wasn't wanting to hold a gun to anyone's head and be all like silver or lead? Maybe work ethic would be a better word? idk, sorry for the confusion.

Again I have to agree with you, it will always be a problem, but what I mentioned, which as I said earlier is by no means a perfect solution it is just a rough idea to work with, would be more of a passive way of opening up some transparency, without stepping on anyone's toes. Not everyone has to stop their support, nor will the stupid ones, but that's a given. It would just be nice to have some more clairty on what their putting their money towards. At that point its free game, do what you please.

You are on the right track and unfortunately you are right about some not stopping their support, I doubt the big picture will ever be fixed as even with some sort of oversight these problems still arise in other industries.

What you could do is try on a smaller scale to help make the change by choosing the games you like and joining the dev's discord or website and opening up communication there. Even if just by asking the dev questions that will lead to more transparency.

If that does not work there are still over options open, there are a number of threads listing games that could be played while waiting for updates, there are other sites dedicated to genres and you can find some real gems there and download them here.
You could also start a new thread aimed at helping people find games to pass the time until the game they are waiting for update. These may seem like small things but every little bit helps and as anyone who has read threads on these forums can see, alot of games bring out alot of passion in alot of people. Helping those people not boil over in a small way can actually be a big help.

 

[Echoesinthedarkness]

Whoa, dial it back 200 or 300 notches... OP has not been agro or insulting in his posts and has been open to the replies he has received, he just has trouble communicating. Instead of coming out with agro and "shut your fucking mouth" you calmly help share different points of view and maybe in a constructive way give him ideas to help him find a solution. Remember others will read this thread in the future and may feel the same way as him and advice you share with him might help future readers too.



You are on the right track and unfortunately you are right about some not stopping their support, I doubt the big picture will ever be fixed as even with some sort of oversight these problems still arise in other industries.

What you could do is try on a smaller scale to help make the change by choosing the games you like and joining the dev's discord or website and opening up communication there. Even if just by asking the dev questions that will lead to more transparency.

If that does not work there are still over options open, there are a number of threads listing games that could be played while waiting for updates, there are other sites dedicated to genres and you can find some real gems there and download them here.
You could also start a new thread aimed at helping people find games to pass the time until the game they are waiting for update. These may seem like small things but every little bit helps and as anyone who has read threads on these forums can see, alot of games bring out alot of passion in alot of people. Helping those people not boil over in a small way can actually be a big help.

One thing I agree with, is this guy should be the change he is looking for. Start supporting developers and practices that he likes, that is the best way to make his voice heard.
I was rather harsh only because I see people like op as part of another problem - they want to be loud and people listening to them all while being a bunch of freeloaders - idk if op is freeloader himself, and I registered here not only to participate in these highly cultured discussions, but at least I understand that being given somethimg for free you either take it or stfu,there is no rationality in complaining louder than patrons do, and that is exactly what op is doing.

 

[morphnet]

I was rather harsh only because I see people like op as part of another problem - they want to be loud and people listening to them all while being a bunch of freeloaders

I agree that there are alot of people who complain and more without supporting the dev's they have problems with, some are even open about the fact they do not give support. There is no way of knowing though if OP is one of them, I have supported dev's in the past but never added that to my profile. OP might have supported in the past or even be supporting now. It's always best not to assume as it can create bigger misunderstandings.

As for being harsh, if you makes posts like the one you did, the people you are trying to reach with your message will 9 out of 10 times ignore it and react with the same level of agro or higher agro than you did. It is best to put your point in a way that will give the person you are trying to reach pause to think. There are times where you need to be blunt to get a point across but this OP was clearly open to accepting advice and went so far as to change the thread title to better convey his intended message. He deserves some understanding and I'm sure if you rephrase your post, he would be open to advice you give him.

idk if op is freeloader himself, and I registered here not only to participate in these highly cultured discussions, but at least I understand that being given somethimg for free you either take it or stfu,there is no rationality in complaining louder than patrons do, and that is exactly what op is doing.

You are telling OP to take it or leave it and not to make more noise than patrons but no real advise to help them.
I see this all the time in forums and even in gaming, people tell those complaining to shut up or move on or uninstall the game but that never solves anything as it just keeps the agro following. Instead people should give advice on how to deal with or over come the issues. By doing this you are part of the solution and hopefully if even 1 out of 10 listens you've helped make the community a better place.

Give OP some advice in a calm manner on how he could better have handled the current situation or how to better handle future situations and hopefully you can help make the community a better place too.

 

[Count Morado]

some countries outlaw donations to non-governmental or similar organizations for this exact reason, and require there to be an actual exchange of things. ie. you MUST produce goods or services that are bought by the donations. if you just sit around doing nothing you're committing a fraud and can get pretty heavy time depending on the amount of money stolen from people.

You state "some countries," name 3 that require an exchange of goods or services for a donation.

Definition of donation:
: the act or an instance of donating: such as
a: the making of a gift especially to a charity or public institution
b: a free contribution : GIFT

Legal definition of donation:
A donation is a gift - usually one of a charitable nature. A donation is a voluntary transfer of property (often money) from the transferor (donor) to the transferee (donee) with no exchange of value (consideration) on the part of the recipient (donee). (The recipient gives nothing in exchange for the donated property).

 

[Echoesinthedarkness]

I agree that there are alot of people who complain and more without supporting the dev's they have problems with, some are even open about the fact they do not give support. There is no way of knowing though if OP is one of them, I have supported dev's in the past but never added that to my profile. OP might have supported in the past or even be supporting now. It's always best not to assume as it can create bigger misunderstandings.

As for being harsh, if you makes posts like the one you did, the people you are trying to reach with your message will 9 out of 10 times ignore it and react with the same level of agro or higher agro than you did. It is best to put your point in a way that will give the person you are trying to reach pause to think. There are times where you need to be blunt to get a point across but this OP was clearly open to accepting advice and went so far as to change the thread title to better convey his intended message. He deserves some understanding and I'm sure if you rephrase your post, he would be open to advice you give him.



You are telling OP to take it or leave it and not to make more noise than patrons but no real advise to help them.
I see this all the time in forums and even in gaming, people tell those complaining to shut up or move on or uninstall the game but that never solves anything as it just keeps the agro following. Instead people should give advice on how to deal with or over come the issues. By doing this you are part of the solution and hopefully if even 1 out of 10 listens you've helped make the community a better place.

Give OP some advice in a calm manner on how he could better have handled the current situation or how to better handle future situations and hopefully you can help make the community a better place too.

I mean, my advice is pretty clear I think? Take it or leave it; support the ones you like and dont support the ones you dont like - this is your voice, nothing more, nothing less.
Idk whats so hard to understand about that, all this "anger" from people who cant leave behind them something they dont like is just their way to make their voice louder than the others. But, apart from conducting your personal stance and acting accordingly, single individual dont have any voice over hundreds other people in a community.
So - assuming the guy is actually a supporter - make the change yourself, maybe you'll be alone in that and that will make you feel bad because you'll feel that your opinion is neglected, but unless you are hypersensitive to what others are talking/doing, the only thing that should matter for you is your personal stance on the subject.
And, if you are not a supporter, then take what you was given, you are not the project's audience, so yeah tough luck.

 

[Icarus Media]

It is best to put your point in a way that will give the person you are trying to reach pause to think.

Potatoes are a good source of carbohydrates.

 

[morphnet]

Potatoes are a good source of carbohydrates.

Don't forget starch... they are also very versatile, they are like the kings of vegetables.

 

[Icarus Media]

Don't forget starch... they are also very versatile, they are like the kings of vegetables.

Indeed and in terms of vegetable nutrition we need more transparency and communication.

 

[Meaning Less]

Here, have some transparency.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Yeah I apologize for some poor wording on my part, I struggle to find the correct words sometimes. True, your not wrong, I shouldn't have said it like that. Was just kind of thinking of a few of the bigger games that still have a lot of supporters for some god known reason that absorb a lot of the stupidity.

The problem is that you aren't wrong, but alas also aren't right.

It's an issue that probably exist since the starts of patronage, therefore since millennium. I mean, take middle age by example, how many times artists where badmouthing their king in his back, because he was still patron of this particular artist who did nothing since years ? I'm sure it was already a thing at this time, and also before this time.
Those artists where right, that guy do nothing that deserve his king's money. But the king is also right, because that guy did things that deserve this money, even now. It's not because he's now doing nothing, that he should rot in some back alley.
It's obviously less true nowadays, because we have payed jobs to solve this issue. But in the head of some patrons it's how they see the fact that they continue to pledge ; what he did in the past mean that he still deserve few of my bucks.
Not that all patrons of now silent creators think that way, but it's root of the problem, none view is totally right, nor totally wrong, when it come to the patronage business model behind Patreon and sites like this. Even when it come to transparency and communications. There's those who would love to have more of both, and those who are more on the side of "don't bother being distracted by futility, like talking to us, I'll be happy when the final result will come".

On a side note, there's also the "discord trend", and before it the "personal forum" one. Patreon isn't necessarily a good place to exchange with your fans, therefore devs have other places, more or less private, to engage in this kind of communication.
In the end, it's a subject too complex, and with a too wild range of behavior, for both the creators and patrons, to be summarized in a way or another. But in the same time it's this complexity that make us tend to this global approach, because addressing each context separately is just impossible.