This happens every single time it gets near a new release. The entitlement trolls come out and get upset that the devs don't let them pirate their porn fast enough.
- Thread starter magicnuts
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- Nov 26, 2020
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No offense but some of you really need to go outside and touch some grass instead of spamming f5 to see if the update is out yet and then complain when it isnt
- Apr 7, 2019
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better to wait and see. game is dope and yes, it sucks that we have to wait for our spank material, but that is life.
- Mar 23, 2019
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Every thread on this site is the same. Any game that takes longer than two months to update has people whining about milking regardless of the circumstances or communication of the dev. This is literally a free game. It's not pirated, it's free. I don't know what what dev burned you guys so bad but not everyone is milking their game just because updates take a while.
- Jan 3, 2018
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Nothing the other poster has said has been done "rightfully".
His whole argument is a based on a bunch of unsubstantiated assumptions.
Neither he, nor you, have the first clue if what the dev says is a lie. You're both assuming that it is.
He has no evidence, or factual knowledge to support the claim.
Because the game has not been delivered as quickly as he would like, or thinks it should have been, the dev is instantly a liar and a crook.
It's the literal definition of attention seeking entitlement.
If he is so convinced that the dev is a liar, there's a really simple solution.
This site has numerous games. Move on. Find something else that he actually enjoys, rather than wasting his own time here, on something he thinks is crooked.
Leave the game & the thread to the people who do enjoy it.
But no, he must explain to the people who enjoy it, just why they are wrong to do so.
The white knight hero needs to save the poor people who have been deceived by this evil dev.
Posting an opinion of subjective bile is not productive & it is not going to change anyone else's opinion.
So it's a worthless exercise, a fool's errand.
The game is not going to suddenly turned up any quicker, because he claims the dev is milking.
It will be here when it's ready. Not before.
Suck it up & wait with patience.
The "assumption" we are making is according to the defenition the devs give of debugging lol. All the things listed there are issues that are found and addressed with little effort in renpy, as i've said, this game is only a very few tiny steps above the most bare bones renpy default experience.
And yes there is almost no excuse to take this much time to deliver an update for a game like this if we assume that the two devs are working full time on it (or 5-6 hours daily). I would even ask the patreons to reconsider what they are paying for since at this rate the game will take more than 20 years to be done and chances are something is gonna happen along the way and the project is gonna die in the middle of the road. But again, what i suspect that the devs are doing is either just commiting to 30 minutes of work daily or lie and just want to take this to next month so they can get another wage for 0 work.
But you're correct, the only reason im here is because i got hooked reading the discussion and i usually only check this thread once a month or so.
- Jan 3, 2018
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No.
That was the assumption.
That is another assumption.
Little effort to who, you?
Well they are not you, are they?
You have absolutely zero idea of how much effort it requires from them.
Therefore you also have absolutely no idea if they are lying.
Yet you claim that they are, as if it were a fact.
It's not a fact. It's just your opinion.
There is a distinct difference between the two.
If you are an amazing, superstar debugger, maybe you should offer your services.
This part is, again, just your opinion. Things are relative & subjective.
Something that seems simple to Person A may seem overwhelmingly difficult to Person B.
Are you talking from personal experience? You've made a game in Ren'Py?
Or are you just assuming?
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Love how you defend by indirectly assuming that the devs are crazy stupid and incompetent for not figuring out to how work with renpy after 2+ years of game development with it
. And im the one making baseless assumptions? I could literally pin point you a youtube tutorial on how to implement every single feature present in that game, as it is part of the most basic things you do with renpy. But you just dust if off with "but everything here is relative and your opinion!!" despite you presenting me an excuse that also is dubious and makes even less sense in these circumstances. Yeah i would also love to know why the devs havent tried to expand the team and hire someone to be in charge of the non creative work like coding.
You have a person literally posting it in page 376.
- Jan 3, 2018
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Your analogy is lacking.
The Chef never said the meal was going to take X amount of time.
Show me where the devs said they would have the game ready by a specific date?
Prove your claim, or it's false.
If, when complaining about the length of time, I decided to tell the chef how easy each part of his process was & how quickly he should have performed it, then I obviously need to have experience & knowledge to back up that claim.
If I am not a chef, how the fuck do I know what's required?
Yet you are talking as if you know precisely what is required, so you must be a chef.
Are you unfamiliar with the concept of "the burden of proof"?
In short, you make the claim you need to prove it.
I'm not defending anything, except for common sense.Love how you defend by indirectly assuming that the devs are crazy stupid and incompetent for not figuring out to how work with renpy after 2+ years of game development with it
What I am doing, is showing that something you think is easy, is not automatically easy to every/anyone else.
You claim that the bug fixing is simple. What bugs have they encountered? Do you even know what they are currently trying to fix?
If not, then your whole opinion & argument falls apart at the first hurdle.
Even if you do know what they're working on, do you know how difficult the devs may find some of them to fix?
Absolutely not. You have no idea.
Yet you make claims which you have no clue about the truth of, you suggest a YouTube video that made it look easy as evidence of your claim.
That's the literal definition of an unsubstantiated assumption.
You talk as if you're some sort of expert with Ren'Py, clearly you consider yourself a better, more competent developer than the people making this game.
So where's the evidence of your superiority?
Prove it, or it didn't happen.
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lol ok bro.. Everyone is an expert on the internet.
If it is as simple as an youtube tutorial, make your own game. I'm sure you'll finish it in 3 months because you're a god in game development
Yeah you are not defending, just trying to counter argue with dumb use of "its all relative" lol.
The claims we are making are centered around the very own words of the devs themselves.
Why would i spend about 2-3 hours reinstalling renpy development kit and making a dummy game with the same architecture as this one just to prove you wrong? ANY person who has worked with renpy knows that the coding in there is part of the basic tutorial for a VN in renpy, go look up the videos and see it for yourself.
- Jan 3, 2018
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Things are relative.
As I said, one person finding something easy does not mean that another person automatically will.
This is not an opinion, it's a fact.
Prove it.
Prove that you know exactly what bug they are working on, right now.
Where is the quote from the dev?
If you cannot prove it, quit with your unsubstantiated claims.
Again talking as if you're a competent developer.
Prove it.
Maybe start by proving that you know precisely what the architecture of this game is, as you claim.
Instead of just coming across like you're talking out your ass with ego & a superiority complex.
If you cannot prove it, quit with your unsubstantiated claims.
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- Mar 19, 2020
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Bacalu You're talking about code bugs. But:
So "bugs" can be code issues, missing/wrong images and sprites, sound issues (wrong sound/music, sounds being too loud/quiet/long/short), logical issues and a lot more.
I challenge you this: I will take a version of this game and put at least 10 bugs into it -- and not just coding bugs, but also image/sprite/sound/logical/etc ones. You'll then have 1 week to find and correct 10 of them. One week for 10 bugs! Are you up to it? And if you're as good as you claim to be (because every "noob" can professionally code Ren'Py after watching the YT tutorial!), you might even find all the bugs.
If you accept, I will need a few days to prepare a bugged version of this game.
But if you chicken out, you're just a troll and will end up on my ignore list right away.
How do you count bug tasks?
The errors found while playing the currently under development content or things from previous releases that we want to fix/change before the next update. For example: missing hands or sprite elements, buttons that are misplaced or miss hover-idle states, events crashing with each other, sound effects over-lapping with environment music, characters in more than one place at the same time, quests not working well as a sandbox, etc.
So "bugs" can be code issues, missing/wrong images and sprites, sound issues (wrong sound/music, sounds being too loud/quiet/long/short), logical issues and a lot more.
I challenge you this: I will take a version of this game and put at least 10 bugs into it -- and not just coding bugs, but also image/sprite/sound/logical/etc ones. You'll then have 1 week to find and correct 10 of them. One week for 10 bugs! Are you up to it? And if you're as good as you claim to be (because every "noob" can professionally code Ren'Py after watching the YT tutorial!), you might even find all the bugs.
If you accept, I will need a few days to prepare a bugged version of this game.
But if you chicken out, you're just a troll and will end up on my ignore list right away.
- Jun 17, 2019
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Two random lines of text you see on screen, with just two characters, equals to this in the scripts:
Misspell just one of those tiny little commands and you've got yourself a bug you won't notice until you play that scene - and only if you are fully focused, like most players will be while playing the game. That's two randomly chosen lines of dialogue of the thousands on each update (Myrtle's update, from which I've extracted that piece of code, contains roughly 3,000 dialogue lines). Now add logic bugs like characters showing at a certain time on a specific location that should change depending on what scenes have been already triggered, so you have to take into account every possible 'path' to properly code those encounters. Those situations just increase exponentially with every new update and quest, and they all should be tested and fixed when needed. Sure, WaL is not the most complex Ren'Py game ever but it's not barebone Ren'Py either.
Now, we are focusing on bugs. What about if we compare the number of 'edit' tasks instead and how they evolve during this polishing period? That is the real deal in terms of time investment since it involves redoing art (which is the most time-consuming task during the 'regular' development cycle). When the art was finally done (May 24th) edit tasks were at 327/344 and bugs were at 119/171.
Today, edit tasks are at 436/447 and bugs are at 246/269.
So there has been actually more editing work than debugging.
I guess they could have released an 'alpha' update full of bugs and mismatching expressions shortly after completing the planned art tasks. Somehow, I guess those who complain about the excessive time between updates would have complained about the game being buggy or having less quality than before despite 'mWhAHahAha dEvS aRe gEtTiNg RiCh AnD sTeaLInG yOuR fUcKinG mOney yOu BuNcH oF PrIcKs'. Maybe some people would have appreciated that faster update, though, but it just wouldn't be the game so many people fell in love with.
The game is 100% free. Yet, devs have managed to make a living of it - because many people actually like enough the results of their work. Some people claim that being able to make a living from a lewd game leads devs to become lazy and 'milk' their supporters slowing down their work rate as subscriptions don't encourage devs to 'work harder'. However, their supporters on Patreon grow hugely every time they release an update, so according to rational logic, devs should be the most interested in releasing quicker updates as this would mean a bigger monthly income -plus, in Magicnuts' case, had they actually released the new update when they expected to do it, they wouldn't need to refund those who signed up in June hoping they were going to get a new update. So no, slowing down releases is not exactly beneficial as they could get even more profits by updating the game more often (unless, of course, we assume devs have found an optimal income level and they just don't feel the need to push it for more).
That said, I can honestly understand that criticism -the Patreon's model does have its shortcomings- but I won't ever share it: even if whiners are right and these devs are just slacking off and adding random numbers to their charts to make it seem they are working hard when they aren't, or if they are just dumb people who don't know how to debug a simple Ren'Py game, why is it 'bad' to release an update in 6, 7 or 9 months instead of 5? Why shouldn't they be able to work under lesser pressure thanks to people who enjoy what they are actually doing? Why couldn't they try to extend for some more time this nice situation? Don't we dream all of something like that? Is it just plain jealousy, then? Why do some people feel it's like a sin for the devs to take some days off (which these devs aren't taking, btw) and enjoy their leisure time outside of developing the game, when they can afford it? Just because you wanted the game to be out faster -so you can already start pressuring them for the next installment? If you don't like their 'work ethics' you are free to not support them. You are free to explain your reasons -your personal assumptions and beliefs. But laughing at those who either trust the devs or simply don't care and just want to show them some appreciation by throwing them a few bucks is just mean -why do some people feel the urge to tell other adult people how they should not spend their money?- and accusing any dev of ill-intentioned wrongdoings is something you just can't do unless you are living in their home and you can prove with proper facts that they are lying when they say they are actually working on their project.
Python:
show pov mneu bdoubt
show myrtle bsad msad hfneu1
myrtle "Will you do that?!"
show pov hfneu1 bsad mside hbneu1 at m_cright with moveinright:
xalign 0.4
show myrtle eclosed mwonder hfneu1 bsad xthand
show pov hfstill1
pov "Sure. I'll be careful."Now, we are focusing on bugs. What about if we compare the number of 'edit' tasks instead and how they evolve during this polishing period? That is the real deal in terms of time investment since it involves redoing art (which is the most time-consuming task during the 'regular' development cycle). When the art was finally done (May 24th) edit tasks were at 327/344 and bugs were at 119/171.
Today, edit tasks are at 436/447 and bugs are at 246/269.
So there has been actually more editing work than debugging.
I guess they could have released an 'alpha' update full of bugs and mismatching expressions shortly after completing the planned art tasks. Somehow, I guess those who complain about the excessive time between updates would have complained about the game being buggy or having less quality than before despite 'mWhAHahAha dEvS aRe gEtTiNg RiCh AnD sTeaLInG yOuR fUcKinG mOney yOu BuNcH oF PrIcKs'. Maybe some people would have appreciated that faster update, though, but it just wouldn't be the game so many people fell in love with.
The game is 100% free. Yet, devs have managed to make a living of it - because many people actually like enough the results of their work. Some people claim that being able to make a living from a lewd game leads devs to become lazy and 'milk' their supporters slowing down their work rate as subscriptions don't encourage devs to 'work harder'. However, their supporters on Patreon grow hugely every time they release an update, so according to rational logic, devs should be the most interested in releasing quicker updates as this would mean a bigger monthly income -plus, in Magicnuts' case, had they actually released the new update when they expected to do it, they wouldn't need to refund those who signed up in June hoping they were going to get a new update. So no, slowing down releases is not exactly beneficial as they could get even more profits by updating the game more often (unless, of course, we assume devs have found an optimal income level and they just don't feel the need to push it for more).
That said, I can honestly understand that criticism -the Patreon's model does have its shortcomings- but I won't ever share it: even if whiners are right and these devs are just slacking off and adding random numbers to their charts to make it seem they are working hard when they aren't, or if they are just dumb people who don't know how to debug a simple Ren'Py game, why is it 'bad' to release an update in 6, 7 or 9 months instead of 5? Why shouldn't they be able to work under lesser pressure thanks to people who enjoy what they are actually doing? Why couldn't they try to extend for some more time this nice situation? Don't we dream all of something like that? Is it just plain jealousy, then? Why do some people feel it's like a sin for the devs to take some days off (which these devs aren't taking, btw) and enjoy their leisure time outside of developing the game, when they can afford it? Just because you wanted the game to be out faster -so you can already start pressuring them for the next installment? If you don't like their 'work ethics' you are free to not support them. You are free to explain your reasons -your personal assumptions and beliefs. But laughing at those who either trust the devs or simply don't care and just want to show them some appreciation by throwing them a few bucks is just mean -why do some people feel the urge to tell other adult people how they should not spend their money?- and accusing any dev of ill-intentioned wrongdoings is something you just can't do unless you are living in their home and you can prove with proper facts that they are lying when they say they are actually working on their project.
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Yeah except you are applying this on a person who has been working on this for 2 years doing exactly the same thing over and over again.
I literally just can give you two videos each of a person teaching making a map game with choices and another of a person playing around with logic and event triggers on renpy. Renpy is a tool that is specifically made for this type of games if you think its dificult to develop these types of games with a map, choices and stats i invite you to look up what most the other devs are doing which is basically the same thing under different textures. The obvious hard part is making the artwork, writting and animations. Renpy and RPGM are the easiest tools to work by far. And im not going to personally make a dummy game of someone doing the exact same architecture when you have a video of someone doing the core code in 25 minutes i can just literally copy this, give different coordinates, different names and a different dialog.
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- Jan 3, 2018
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You're still assuming someone else's work speed, capability for a specific task & efficiency, regardless.
So, as you provided no proof, you have no idea what bugs they are currently working on.
Therefore your whole argument and opinion falls at the first hurdle.
Which proves nothing, other than your simplistic lack of understanding.
Well done.
Choices made in earlier versions create branching paths. Any change made needs to be tested across all paths it can affect.
As mosyk said, above, these expand exponentially, therefore so does the time it takes to test.
You have no proof to support your claim that their game architecture is simple, or that you even know what it is.
So it's still just unsubstantiated assumptions that give you licence to call the devs liars.
Thanks.
Move along now.
and 98 more bugs have been added to the list, during that time.
But we won't talk about that, because it doesn't fit their "milking" agenda.
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I appreciate your effort in this reply.
I'd like to point out that the problem with these lines is very simple to detect since renpy will crash and say to you which variable was not found, or which commmand in specific had invalid parameters. The case for events would be most complex but there is a reason why these games have a mainplot that is followed by different side stories that try to be as independent as possible from other long distance events. To know where each character is or if there are any loops in logic you dont need to read the whole game from the begining and just skip dialog.
But i take your point on the Edit part, if it implies redoing art and animations. That would justify taking more time than debugging code itself
- Sep 12, 2018
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I don't care how long it gonna take, i appriciate devs making this game for us . sometimes i am suprised just how much stuff is there on the internet and how much people are doing to improve there skills. Sometimes feels like we are lacking behind.
. sometimes i am suprised just how much stuff is there on the internet and how much people are doing to improve there skills. Sometimes feels like we are lacking behind.Im not gonna take a full project done by someone else and spend my whole limited free time (because i work) looking at literall all lines and code to see if there is something wrong just to prove you that debugging in renpy isnt complicated. Its not even comparable to what devs are doing since they already know the stuff they've done previously is working as intended and know which stuff they've messed with when adding the new code. Go ahead and add me to your blocked list, i literally dont care who you are
- Jan 3, 2018
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I have to take it that you've never heard of Change or Release Management, never mind Configuration Management.
You don't seem to understand that the different types of testing, Regression test, Functionality test, Integration testing, Unit test & System testing, all exist for good reason.
You absolutely have to check that something newly introduced does not bugger up something previously existing.
You've made 9 posts since joining, are they all so pretentious, accusatory & argumentative?
Most of the ones I've seen from you here sadly are.
If you don't agree with the timescales the game is produced to, find another game that you do agree with.
If you believe that the devs for this game are liars and milkers, as you've claimed, then don't support them, find another dev.
Either way, please stop polluting this thread with unsubstantiated assumptions, accusations and false claims.
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