Ren'Py What a Legend! [v0.7.03] [MagicNuts]

[akikospam74]

I could literally pin point you a youtube tutorial on how to implement every single feature present in that game, as it is part of the most basic things you do with renpy.

lol ok bro.. Everyone is an expert on the internet.

If it is as simple as an youtube tutorial, make your own game. I'm sure you'll finish it in 3 months because you're a god in game development

 

[Bacalu]

I'm not defending anything, except for common sense.
You make claims which you have no clue about the truth of.
That's the literal definition of an unsubstantiated assumption.

Yeah you are not defending, just trying to counter argue with dumb use of "its all relative" lol.
The claims we are making are centered around the very own words of the devs themselves.

You talk as if you're some sort of expert with Ren'Py, clearly you consider yourself a better, more competent developer than the people making this game.
Prove it, or it didn't happen.

Why would i spend about 2-3 hours reinstalling renpy development kit and making a dummy game with the same architecture as this one just to prove you wrong? ANY person who has worked with renpy knows that the coding in there is part of the basic tutorial for a VN in renpy, go look up the videos and see it for yourself.

 

[whichone]

Yeah you are not defending, just trying to counter argue with dumb use of "its all relative" lol.

Things are relative.
As I said, one person finding something easy does not mean that another person automatically will.
This is not an opinion, it's a fact.

The claims we are making are centered around the very own words of the devs themselves.

Prove it.
Prove that you know exactly what bug they are working on, right now.
Where is the quote from the dev?
If you cannot prove it, quit with your unsubstantiated claims.

Why would i spend about 2-3 hours reinstalling renpy development kit and making a dummy game with the same architecture as this one just to prove you wrong? ANY person who has worked with renpy knows that the coding in there is part of the basic tutorial for a VN in renpy, go look up the videos and see it for yourself.

Again talking as if you're a competent developer.
Prove it.
Maybe start by proving that you know precisely what the architecture of this game is, as you claim.
Instead of just coming across like you're talking out your ass with ego & a superiority complex.
If you cannot prove it, quit with your unsubstantiated claims.

 

[theMickey_]

Bacalu You're talking about code bugs. But:

How do you count bug tasks? ​

The errors found while playing the currently under development content or things from previous releases that we want to fix/change before the next update. For example: missing hands or sprite elements, buttons that are misplaced or miss hover-idle states, events crashing with each other, sound effects over-lapping with environment music, characters in more than one place at the same time, quests not working well as a sandbox, etc. ​

So "bugs" can be code issues, missing/wrong images and sprites, sound issues (wrong sound/music, sounds being too loud/quiet/long/short), logical issues and a lot more.

I challenge you this: I will take a version of this game and put at least 10 bugs into it -- and not just coding bugs, but also image/sprite/sound/logical/etc ones. You'll then have 1 week to find and correct 10 of them. One week for 10 bugs! Are you up to it? And if you're as good as you claim to be (because every "noob" can professionally code Ren'Py after watching the YT tutorial!), you might even find all the bugs.

If you accept, I will need a few days to prepare a bugged version of this game.
But if you chicken out, you're just a troll and will end up on my ignore list right away.

 

[moskyx]

Two random lines of text you see on screen, with just two characters, equals to this in the scripts:

    show pov mneu bdoubt
    show myrtle bsad msad hfneu1
    myrtle "Will you do that?!"
    show pov hfneu1 bsad mside hbneu1 at m_cright with moveinright:
        xalign 0.4
    show myrtle eclosed mwonder hfneu1 bsad xthand
    show pov hfstill1
    pov "Sure. I'll be careful."

Misspell just one of those tiny little commands and you've got yourself a bug you won't notice until you play that scene - and only if you are fully focused, like most players will be while playing the game. That's two randomly chosen lines of dialogue of the thousands on each update (Myrtle's update, from which I've extracted that piece of code, contains roughly 3,000 dialogue lines). Now add logic bugs like characters showing at a certain time on a specific location that should change depending on what scenes have been already triggered, so you have to take into account every possible 'path' to properly code those encounters. Those situations just increase exponentially with every new update and quest, and they all should be tested and fixed when needed. Sure, WaL is not the most complex Ren'Py game ever but it's not barebone Ren'Py either.

Now, we are focusing on bugs. What about if we compare the number of 'edit' tasks instead and how they evolve during this polishing period? That is the real deal in terms of time investment since it involves redoing art (which is the most time-consuming task during the 'regular' development cycle). When the art was finally done (May 24th) edit tasks were at 327/344 and bugs were at 119/171.

Today, edit tasks are at 436/447 and bugs are at 246/269.
So there has been actually more editing work than debugging.

I guess they could have released an 'alpha' update full of bugs and mismatching expressions shortly after completing the planned art tasks. Somehow, I guess those who complain about the excessive time between updates would have complained about the game being buggy or having less quality than before despite 'mWhAHahAha dEvS aRe gEtTiNg RiCh AnD sTeaLInG yOuR fUcKinG mOney yOu BuNcH oF PrIcKs'. Maybe some people would have appreciated that faster update, though, but it just wouldn't be the game so many people fell in love with.

The game is 100% free. Yet, devs have managed to make a living of it - because many people actually like enough the results of their work. Some people claim that being able to make a living from a lewd game leads devs to become lazy and 'milk' their supporters slowing down their work rate as subscriptions don't encourage devs to 'work harder'. However, their supporters on Patreon grow hugely every time they release an update, so according to rational logic, devs should be the most interested in releasing quicker updates as this would mean a bigger monthly income -plus, in Magicnuts' case, had they actually released the new update when they expected to do it, they wouldn't need to refund those who signed up in June hoping they were going to get a new update. So no, slowing down releases is not exactly beneficial as they could get even more profits by updating the game more often (unless, of course, we assume devs have found an optimal income level and they just don't feel the need to push it for more).

That said, I can honestly understand that criticism -the Patreon's model does have its shortcomings- but I won't ever share it: even if whiners are right and these devs are just slacking off and adding random numbers to their charts to make it seem they are working hard when they aren't, or if they are just dumb people who don't know how to debug a simple Ren'Py game, why is it 'bad' to release an update in 6, 7 or 9 months instead of 5? Why shouldn't they be able to work under lesser pressure thanks to people who enjoy what they are actually doing? Why couldn't they try to extend for some more time this nice situation? Don't we dream all of something like that? Is it just plain jealousy, then? Why do some people feel it's like a sin for the devs to take some days off (which these devs aren't taking, btw) and enjoy their leisure time outside of developing the game, when they can afford it? Just because you wanted the game to be out faster -so you can already start pressuring them for the next installment? If you don't like their 'work ethics' you are free to not support them. You are free to explain your reasons -your personal assumptions and beliefs. But laughing at those who either trust the devs or simply don't care and just want to show them some appreciation by throwing them a few bucks is just mean -why do some people feel the urge to tell other adult people how they should not spend their money?- and accusing any dev of ill-intentioned wrongdoings is something you just can't do unless you are living in their home and you can prove with proper facts that they are lying when they say they are actually working on their project.

 

[Bacalu]

Things are relative.
As I said, one person finding something easy does not mean that another person automatically will.
This is not an opinion, it's a fact.

Yeah except you are applying this on a person who has been working on this for 2 years doing exactly the same thing over and over again.

Again talking as if you're a competent developer.
Prove it.
Maybe start by proving that you know precisely what the architecture of this game is.
Instead of just coming across like you're talking out your ass with ego.
If you cannot prove it, quit with your unsubstantiated claims.

I literally just can give you two videos each of a person teaching making a map game with choices and another of a person playing around with logic and event triggers on renpy. Renpy is a tool that is specifically made for this type of games if you think its dificult to develop these types of games with a map, choices and stats i invite you to look up what most the other devs are doing which is basically the same thing under different textures. The obvious hard part is making the artwork, writting and animations. Renpy and RPGM are the easiest tools to work by far. And im not going to personally make a dummy game of someone doing the exact same architecture when you have a video of someone doing the core code in 25 minutes i can just literally copy this, give different coordinates, different names and a different dialog.

You must be registered to see the links

You must be registered to see the links

 

[whichone]

Yeah except you are applying this on a person who has been working on this for 2 years doing exactly the same thing over and over again.

You're still assuming someone else's work speed, capability for a specific task & efficiency, regardless.
So, as you provided no proof, you have no idea what bugs they are currently working on.
Therefore your whole argument and opinion falls at the first hurdle.

I literally just can give you two videos each of a person teaching making a map game with choices and another of a person playing around with logic and event triggers on renpy.

Which proves nothing, other than your simplistic lack of understanding.
Well done.
Choices made in earlier versions create branching paths. Any change made needs to be tested across all paths it can affect.
As mosyk said, above, these expand exponentially, therefore so does the time it takes to test.

You have no proof to support your claim that their game architecture is simple, or that you even know what it is.
So it's still just unsubstantiated assumptions that give you licence to call the devs liars.
Thanks.
Move along now.

So there has been actually more editing work than debugging.

and 98 more bugs have been added to the list, during that time.
But we won't talk about that, because it doesn't fit their "milking" agenda.

 

[Bacalu]

Two random lines of text you see on screen, with just two characters, equals to this in the scripts:

    show pov mneu bdoubt
    show myrtle bsad msad hfneu1
    myrtle "Will you do that?!"
    show pov hfneu1 bsad mside hbneu1 at m_cright with moveinright:
        xalign 0.4
    show myrtle eclosed mwonder hfneu1 bsad xthand
    show pov hfstill1
    pov "Sure. I'll be careful."

Misspell just one of those tiny little commands and you've got yourself a bug you won't notice until you play that scene - and only if you are fully focused, like most players will be while playing the game. That's two randomly chosen lines of dialogue of the thousands on each update (Myrtle's update, from which I've extracted that piece of code, contains roughly 3,000 dialogue lines). Now add logic bugs like characters showing at a certain time on a specific location that should change depending on what scenes have been already triggered, so you have to take into account every possible 'path' to properly code those encounters. Those situations just increase exponentially with every new update and quest, and they all should be tested and fixed when needed. Sure, WaL is not the most complex Ren'Py game ever but it's not barebone Ren'Py either.

Now, we are focusing on bugs. What about if we compare the number of 'edit' tasks instead and how they evolve during this polishing period? That is the real deal in terms of time investment since it involves redoing art (which is the most time-consuming task during the 'regular' development cycle). When the art was finally done (May 24th) edit tasks were at 327/344 and bugs were at 119/171.
View attachment 1909488
Today, edit tasks are at 436/447 and bugs are at 246/269. View attachment 1909489
So there has been actually more editing work than debugging.

I guess they could have released an 'alpha' update full of bugs and mismatching expressions shortly after completing the planned art tasks. Somehow, I guess those who complain about the excessive time between updates would have complained about the game being buggy or having less quality than before despite 'mWhAHahAha dEvS aRe gEtTiNg RiCh AnD sTeaLInG yOuR fUcKinG mOney yOu BuNcH oF PrIcKs'. Maybe some people would have appreciated that faster update, though, but it just wouldn't be the game so many people fell in love with.

The game is 100% free. Yet, devs have managed to make a living of it - because many people actually like enough the results of their work. Some people claim that being able to make a living from a lewd game leads devs to become lazy and 'milk' their supporters slowing down their work rate as subscriptions don't encourage devs to 'work harder'. However, their supporters on Patreon grow hugely every time they release an update, so according to rational logic, devs should be the most interested in releasing quicker updates as this would mean a bigger monthly income -plus, in Magicnuts' case, had they actually released the new update when they expected to do it, they wouldn't need to refund those who signed up in June hoping they were going to get a new update. So no, slowing down releases is not exactly beneficial as they could get even more profits by updating the game more often (unless, of course, we assume devs have found an optimal income level and they just don't feel the need to push it for more).

That said, I can honestly understand that criticism -the Patreon's model does have its shortcomings- but I won't ever share it: even if whiners are right and these devs are just slacking off and adding random numbers to their charts to make it seem they are working hard when they aren't, or if they are just dumb people who don't know how to debug a simple Ren'Py game, why is it 'bad' to release an update in 6, 7 or 9 months instead of 5? Why shouldn't they be able to work under lesser pressure thanks to people who enjoy what they are actually doing? Why couldn't they try to extend for some more time this nice situation? Don't we dream all of something like that? Is it just plain jealousy, then? Why do some people feel it's like a sin for the devs to take some days off (which these devs aren't taking, btw) and enjoy their leisure time outside of developing the game, when they can afford it? Just because you wanted the game to be out faster -so you can already start pressuring them for the next installment? If you don't like their 'work ethics' you are free to not support them. You are free to explain your reasons -your personal assumptions and beliefs. But laughing at those who either trust the devs or simply don't care and just want to show them some appreciation by throwing them a few bucks is just mean -why do some people feel the urge to tell other adult people how they should not spend their money?- and accusing any dev of ill-intentioned wrongdoings is something you just can't do unless you are living in their home and you can prove with proper facts that they are lying when they say they are actually working on their project.

I appreciate your effort in this reply.
I'd like to point out that the problem with these lines is very simple to detect since renpy will crash and say to you which variable was not found, or which commmand in specific had invalid parameters. The case for events would be most complex but there is a reason why these games have a mainplot that is followed by different side stories that try to be as independent as possible from other long distance events. To know where each character is or if there are any loops in logic you dont need to read the whole game from the begining and just skip dialog.
But i take your point on the Edit part, if it implies redoing art and animations. That would justify taking more time than debugging code itself

 

[arnab00725]

I don't care how long it gonna take, i appriciate devs making this game for us . sometimes i am suprised just how much stuff is there on the internet and how much people are doing to improve there skills. Sometimes feels like we are lacking behind.

 

[Bacalu]

Bacalu You're talking about code bugs. But:

How do you count bug tasks? ​

The errors found while playing the currently under development content or things from previous releases that we want to fix/change before the next update. For example: missing hands or sprite elements, buttons that are misplaced or miss hover-idle states, events crashing with each other, sound effects over-lapping with environment music, characters in more than one place at the same time, quests not working well as a sandbox, etc. ​

So "bugs" can be code issues, missing/wrong images and sprites, sound issues (wrong sound/music, sounds being too loud/quiet/long/short), logical issues and a lot more.

I challenge you this: I will take a version of this game and put at least 10 bugs into it -- and not just coding bugs, but also image/sprite/sound/logical/etc ones. You'll then have 1 week to find and correct 10 of them. One week for 10 bugs! Are you up to it? And if you're as good as you claim to be (because every "noob" can professionally code Ren'Py after watching the YT tutorial!), you might even find all the bugs.

If you accept, I will need a few days to prepare a bugged version of this game.
But if you chicken out, you're just a troll and will end up on my ignore list right away.

Im not gonna take a full project done by someone else and spend my whole limited free time (because i work) looking at literall all lines and code to see if there is something wrong just to prove you that debugging in renpy isnt complicated. Its not even comparable to what devs are doing since they already know the stuff they've done previously is working as intended and know which stuff they've messed with when adding the new code. Go ahead and add me to your blocked list, i literally dont care who you are

 

[whichone]

Its not even comparable to what devs are doing since they already know the stuff they've done previously is working as intended and know which stuff they've messed with when adding the new code.

I have to take it that you've never heard of Change or Release Management, never mind Configuration Management.
You don't seem to understand that the different types of testing, Regression test, Functionality test, Integration testing, Unit test & System testing, all exist for good reason.
You absolutely have to check that something newly introduced does not bugger up something previously existing.

Go ahead and add me to your blocked list, i literally dont care who you are

You've made 9 posts since joining, are they all so pretentious, accusatory & argumentative?
Most of the ones I've seen from you here sadly are.

If you don't agree with the timescales the game is produced to, find another game that you do agree with.
If you believe that the devs for this game are liars and milkers, as you've claimed, then don't support them, find another dev.
Either way, please stop polluting this thread with unsubstantiated assumptions, accusations and false claims.

 

[Bacalu]

You've made 9 posts since joining, are they all so pretentious & argumentative?
Most of the ones I've seen from you here are.

All my 9 posts are in this thread and have to do with this discussion. I dont know who you are calling pretentious and argumentative, you literally just assume the devs are dumb as hell and pretend that this game in terms of architecture is special when its the same as most renpy novels with choices done here.

 

[whichone]

All my 9 posts are in this thread and have to do with this discussion. I dont know who you are calling pretentious and argumentative, you literally just assume the devs are dumb as hell and pretend that this game in terms of architecture is special when its the same as most renpy novels with choices done here.

I never once assumed anything of the sort.
I simply stated that you have no idea of the dev's competence, efficiency, performance in specific tasks, because you do not.
That is an absolute fact.

You also have no idea of the complexity of their coding, or their architecture.
You're simply assuming it's extremely basic and there is nothing which says your assumption is correct.
It has already been shown as being incorrect, by mosyk.
The game is not the basic Ren'Py demo architecture which you claimed.

I am not claiming that they are incompetent, I'm simply not dismissing the possibility that they may not be an expert for every single scenario that they face.
Some bugs are far more complex than others.

 

[theMickey_]

renpy will crash and say to you which variable was not found, or which commmand in specific had invalid parameters

Take the few lines moskyx posted earlier: If you change show myrtle bsad msad hfneu1 to show myrtle bsad bsad hfneu1 Ren'Py will not crash, and it results in two (slightly) different outcomes:



Do you spot the difference? Most likely not, but the devs would have, and they absolutely care about every detail! And that's why this game -- although it might not be the most complex Ren'Py game out there -- is the most polished (when it comes to all those little details, the UI, and style and art) and most bug-free Ren'Py game I've ever played.

Im not gonna take a full project done by someone else and spend my whole limited free time (because i work) looking at literall all lines and code to see if there is something wrong just to prove you that debugging in renpy isnt complicated.

The devs of WaL also do have full time jobs (AFAIK) and doing this in their spare time! But I can fully understand you: watching just a few YT tutorials and then been put right to the test -- I wouldn't like that as well.

 

[whichone]

I'd like to point out that the problem with these lines is very simple to detect since renpy will crash and say to you which variable was not found, or which commmand in specific had invalid parameters.

As proven by theMickey_, above, clearly not.
Shows what you know.

 

[moskyx]

Take the few lines moskyx posted earlier: If you change show myrtle bsad msad hfneu1 to show myrtle bsad bsad hfneu1 Ren'Py will not crash, and it results in two (slightly) different outcomes:

View attachment 1909567 View attachment 1909571

Do you spot the difference? Most likely not, but the devs would have, and they absolutely care about every detail! And that's why this game -- although it might not be the most complex Ren'Py game out there -- is the most polished (when it comes to all those little details, the UI, and style and art) and most bug-free Ren'Py game I've ever played.



The devs of WaL also do have full time jobs (AFAIK) and doing this in their spare time! But I can fully understand you: watching just a few YT tutorials and then been put right to the test -- I wouldn't like that as well.

Thanks for the visual example. But you are wrong, this is both Devs' only job since 0.2-0.3 I think -fortunately, as we would have to wait even more time between updates otherwise.

 

[akikospam74]

I literally just can give you two videos each of a person teaching

How is that proof that YOU are capable of doing a better job? lol

All you do is make those empty claims, it's pathetic.

And also, I'm guessing you're not a supporter, so you're whining about something you're getting for free lol. If you think it's that bad, go play something else, simple.

 

[akikospam74]

Do you spot the difference? Most likely not, but the devs would have

Of course he doesn't. He's definitely not a developer, just some loser who thinks he knows something because he watched a couple of tutorials on youtube lol

I bet he claims he can hack facebook

 

[theMickey_]

...you are wrong, this is both Devs' only job since 0.2-0.3 I think...

True, and the only point I was trying to make was: Ren'Py (code) debugging isn't as easy as this tutorial watching noob is trying to tell us.

Also: can you imagine who many playthroughs it would take to spot these small bugs? Of course, once spotted, you can then tell the coder to fix it, but to spot it in the first place, you have to look at EVERY scene for more than just 2 seconds. You'll have to check the text, you'll have to check the images, the sprites, listen to the music and sound effects -- this could take HOURS just to get through a SINGLE scene (as in "label" when we talk Ren'Py) trying to find all those nasty mistakes.

 

[whichone]

True, and the only point I was trying to make was: Ren'Py (code) debugging isn't as easy as this tutorial watching noob is trying to tell us.

Also: can you imagine who many playthroughs it would take to spot these small bugs? Of course, once spotted, you can then tell the coder to fix it, but to spot it in the first place, you have to look at EVERY scene for more than just 2 seconds. You'll have to check the text, you'll have to check the images, the sprites, listen to the music and sound effects -- this could take HOURS just to get through a SINGLE scene (as in "label" when we talk Ren'Py) trying to find all those nasty mistakes.

But, but, but, that just doesn't fit with their agenda.
In fact it directly contradicts the assumption behind their "Waaaaah, dev's a liar, milker." claims.
But let's not have a little thing like facts get in the way of their delusions.
They watched a YT vid. They're experts now, don't you know. Despite knowing none of the specifics.